Post by: Rufenit on May 30, 2019, 06:55:31 PM
I’m no biologist or expert in anything related to this, but I’m just couriouse what others think of this possibility.
Post by: dreamunelk on May 30, 2019, 07:09:15 PM
Post by: chukar58 on May 30, 2019, 07:13:57 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on May 30, 2019, 07:40:43 PM
I would believe the former director of the Center for Disease Control. Do some research about leptospirosis and the effect on mammals. The hoof rot disease appears to be a secondary infection. Also a good sample of elk from the problem timberlands have tested positive.
This! As for the post above this if the disease came from livestock why didn't it show up a 100 years ago?
When you kill the browse that the elk need to stay healthy it affects their immune system. They are getting the copper and selenium that hey should. Also seems the chemicals used in the herbicides are bad stuff too. Especiall when its first sprayed and the elk are eating it before it dries or is absorbed by the plants. I first started seeing hoof rot in the early 80s when the timber companies and Christmas tree farms nuked everything.
Post by: Alan K on May 30, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
The more plausible explanation to me is that someone brought some cattle into the Boistfort Valley in the 90's that was a carrier of a strain of treponeme that could infect elk (similarly to sheep pneumonia).
And thats another thing that chaps me... Hoof rot was around for decades before it finally spread to the high profile St. Helens herd and became something people were concerned with. It could have been culled early on if WDFW would have jumped on it in Ryderwood.
And the smearing of timber companies, primarily Weyerhaeuser, never came until they required their access permits which makes me raise an eyebrow as well. Now anything negative that can be blamed on timber companies is done so with fervor. Many loggers historically were able to use their gate keys in walk in areas etc. and those sort of perks became a thing of the past in most permitted rec areas now. I'd take their smears with a grain of salt. :twocents: And if anyones ever been around a logging side or around log truck drivers you know the gossip, right or wrong, spreads like wildfire. :chuckle:
Post by: HntnFsh on May 31, 2019, 05:37:11 AM
And thats another thing that chaps me... Hoof rot was around for decades before it finally spread to the high profile St. Helens herd and became something people were concerned with. It could have been culled early on if WDFW would have jumped on it in Ryderwood.
And the smearing of timber companies, primarily Weyerhaeuser, never came until they required their access permits which makes me raise an eyebrow as well. Now anything negative that can be blamed on timber companies is done so with fervor. Many loggers historically were able to use their gate keys in walk in areas etc. and those sort of perks became a thing of the past in most permitted rec areas now. I'd take their smears with a grain of salt. :twocents: And if anyones ever been around a logging side or around log truck drivers you know the gossip, right or wrong, spreads like wildfire. :chuckle:
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You must talk to different people than I do. Most people I have talked to have noticed and talked about the correlation of hoof rot and massive spray timing way before permits were required for access.
And the dairy farmers that I have talked to dealt with hoof rot in their herds, most likely caused by Treponeme way before the 90s.
Post by: dreamunelk on May 31, 2019, 06:23:52 AM
Hoof disease in elk or hairy wart in cattle has the common bacteria Treponema sp.
Calling hoof disease in elk hoof rot is like saying that the common cold and the flu are the same thing.
https://jcm.asm.org/content/53/1/88 (https://jcm.asm.org/content/53/1/88)
ABSTRACT
Since 2008, a large increase in the numbers of cases of lameness have been seen in wild North American elk (Cervus elaphus) from Washington State, USA. The most recent cases manifested as foot lesions similar both clinically and pathologically to those seen in digital dermatitis (DD) in cattle and sheep, a disease with a bacterial etiopathogenesis. To determine whether the same bacteria considered responsible for DD are associated with elk lameness, lesion samples were subjected to bacterial isolation studies and PCR assays for three phylogroups of relevant DD treponemes. The DD treponemes were isolated from lesional tissues but not from control feet or other areas of the diseased foot (including the coronary band or interdigital space), suggesting that the bacteria are strongly associated with DD lesions and may therefore be causal. In addition, PCR analysis revealed that all three unique DD treponeme phylotypes were found in elk hoof disease, and in 23% of samples, all 3 DD-associated treponemes were present in lesions. Sequence analysis of the 16S rRNA gene showed that the elk lesion treponemes were phylogenetically almost identical to those isolated from cattle and sheep DD lesions. The isolates were particularly similar to two of the three culturable DD treponeme phylotypes: specifically, the Treponema medium/Treponema vincentii-like and Treponema phagedenis-like DD spirochetes. The third treponeme culturable phylogroup (Treponema pedis), although detected by PCR, was not isolated. This is the first report describing isolation of DD treponemes from a wildlife host, suggesting that the disease may be evolving to include a wider spectrum of cloven-hoofed animals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4693204/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4693204/)
Abstract
Globally; digital dermatitis is a leading form of lameness observed in production dairy cattle. While the precise etiology remains to be determined; the disease is clearly associated with infection by numerous species of treponemes; in addition to other anaerobic bacteria. The goal of this review article is to provide an overview of the current literature; focusing on discussion of the polybacterial nature of the digital dermatitis disease complex and host immune response. Several phylotypes of treponemes have been identified; some of which correlate with location in the lesion and some with stages of lesion development. Local innate immune responses may contribute to the proliferative, inflammatory conditions that perpetuate digital dermatitis lesions. While serum antibody is produced to bacterial antigens in the lesions, little is known about cellular-based immunity. Studies are still required to delineate the pathogenic traits of treponemes associated with digital dermatitis; and other host factors that mediate pathology and protection of digital dermatitis lesions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4693204/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4693204/)
Abstract
Globally; digital dermatitis is a leading form of lameness observed in production dairy cattle. While the precise etiology remains to be determined; the disease is clearly associated with infection by numerous species of treponemes; in addition to other anaerobic bacteria. The goal of this review article is to provide an overview of the current literature; focusing on discussion of the polybacterial nature of the digital dermatitis disease complex and host immune response. Several phylotypes of treponemes have been identified; some of which correlate with location in the lesion and some with stages of lesion development. Local innate immune responses may contribute to the proliferative, inflammatory conditions that perpetuate digital dermatitis lesions. While serum antibody is produced to bacterial antigens in the lesions, little is known about cellular-based immunity. Studies are still required to delineate the pathogenic traits of treponemes associated with digital dermatitis; and other host factors that mediate pathology and protection of digital dermatitis lesions.
Post by: Alan K on May 31, 2019, 06:45:16 AM
You must talk to different people than I do. Most people I have talked to have noticed and talked about the correlation of hoof rot and massive spray timing way before permits were required for access.
And the dairy farmers that I have talked to dealt with hoof rot in their herds, most likely caused by Treponeme way before the 90s.
I guess so. :dunno: It's important to understand there is a difference between correlation and causation though.
Treponeme has been around faaaar longer than hoof rot in elk, since the 70's from what I understand. The thing with bacteria is it multiplies very fast giving it a number of opportunities to have that one mutation to allow it to jump to another species. So doesn't suprise me at all that dairy farmers saw it in their herds before that, but the mutation when it jumped to elk seems to be the 90's. The bacteria lives in moist/saturated soils, so the easy places for infection to take place are farmer's fields when they are saturated/flooded and the elk come down in the winter. Once infected, the elk themselves carry the bacteria where the carrier cattle could not, and where they live the majority of the time - up into the woods.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 31, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
.
What puzzles me, in one of the studies it showed that the infection predominately manifested in 6-7 month old elk.
Strange how this coincided with the applications of urea based fertilizer being administered by the "tree growing people"
In my environmental sciences classes, we studied soil composition and water quality.
Most forest soils do not retain moisture or minerals very well and is very acidic.
Water travels through and down to lowland swamps and fields, collecting whatever nutrients and chemicals it encounters.
These concentrations cannot be good for anybody.
There are way more wet/swampy lowlands in the sw region than on the central and eastern part of the state.
I am no expert, but I have made my own observations and participated in a couple studies.
Most infected herds I have witness have had over 50% showing symptoms, usually higher.
Yet, elk a short distance away in a different drainage can all be healthy.
I may not know what causes hoof rot, but I believe that when I see a 6-8 year old clearcut and can still see bare ground, something is missing.
When across the property boundary a short distance away, the same age clearcut is an impenetrable mass of mixed conifers, deciduous trees, huckleberry bushes, BlackBerry brambles, etc..
I know where I am going to hunt.
Post by: Stein on May 31, 2019, 07:43:31 PM
Safe and no published proof of risk are two different things. Take all opinions for what they are worth.
Moo cows and elk share habitat all over for a very long time. This stuff is fairly concentrated. If it were a cute animal, we would dump a billion figuring it out.
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Post by: spin05 on June 01, 2019, 05:11:41 AM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on June 03, 2019, 08:15:03 AM
Grade
Post by: Mudman on June 03, 2019, 08:22:58 AM
Post by: Tbar on June 03, 2019, 09:07:41 AM
To update the topic...hoof rot has now been found just east of the mountains in WA as well as in Idaho (near Whitebird) on private timber company lands...I'm seeing a pattern here...after all it hasn't hit the Skagit Valley where the elk are so thick in farmers fields (lowlands where soil collect nutrients/runoff) that they are hazing the animals back to the hills...but hoof rot is prevelant in private timber company lands..hmmmIt's in the Skagit.
Grade
Post by: Bob33 on June 03, 2019, 09:53:28 AM
To update the topic...hoof rot has now been found just east of the mountains in WA as well as in Idaho (near Whitebird) on private timber company lands...I'm seeing a pattern here...after all it hasn't hit the Skagit Valley where the elk are so thick in farmers fields (lowlands where soil collect nutrients/runoff) that they are hazing the animals back to the hills...but hoof rot is prevelant in private timber company lands..hmmmThere are multiple reports of it from Skagit County. I don't know how many have been confirmed.
Grade
Post by: grade-creek-rd on June 03, 2019, 10:06:02 AM
Grade
Post by: Bango skank on June 03, 2019, 10:44:38 AM
Post by: Fullabull on June 03, 2019, 10:38:11 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 03, 2019, 11:22:31 PM
I hate to say it but I think the best way to fight the disease is to bring in wolves. They will naturally cull the sick and week. And hopefully stop this from devastating elk herd everywhere.
and breed like rabbits so flush with game, until they've done their job
then what?
Post by: KopperBuck on June 03, 2019, 11:27:27 PM
Collapse.I hate to say it but I think the best way to fight the disease is to bring in wolves. They will naturally cull the sick and week. And hopefully stop this from devastating elk herd everywhere.
and breed like rabbits so flush with game, until they've done their job
then what?
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Post by: NW_Bucketlist on June 04, 2019, 10:25:06 PM
Post by: Utah on June 04, 2019, 10:30:41 PM
Post by: elkchaser54 on June 05, 2019, 12:56:44 AM
Post by: grundy53 on June 05, 2019, 06:26:17 AM
I live in Longview right in the middle of hoof rot central. I hunt a lot of different state and private timber company land. I have never seen a elk with hoof rot on state land. Weyerhaeuser land is the worst for hoof root and sierra pacific is a close second. My buddy that lives across the river in Oregon said that they killed a few bulls over there last year that had hoof rot the land was bought by Weyerhaeuser in the last few years. I feel it is something they are using to spray or I would be seeing the herds on stage land with it.I've seen plenty hoof rot on state land.
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Post by: grundy53 on June 05, 2019, 06:27:27 AM
I hate to say it but I think the best way to fight the disease is to bring in wolves. They will naturally cull the sick and week. And hopefully stop this from devastating elk herd everywhere.They will naturally cull the sick and the weak. Also, the young and the healthy.
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