Hunting Washington Forum
Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Stevo539 on March 31, 2009, 11:57:37 AM
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I recently purchased a slightly used Kimber Montana in 300WSM. It came with some factory premium ammunition. Bought a nice Leopold VXIII in 3.5-10x50mm for it. With the factory loads I couldn't get a group smaller than about 1.5". In fact they were more like 2" groups. For handloads I've tried two different bullets with several different powder loads. 180 gr Nosler partitions and 180 gr Sierra BT. Didn't seem to get any better. I'm pretty particular with my handloads and regularly get 1 inch groups or smaller with other rifles. I'm starting to think it's not the ammo but maybe the rifle. It has the lightweight synthetic stock and the thin whispy barrel typical of a lightweight "mountain" rifle (free floated). Am I expecting too much from this barrel? I'm thinking of glass bedding the action next. Anyone else have one of these models? What is accuracy like? Any suggestions for tightening up the groups?
Steve
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I don't have a lot of experience with Kimbers but, I think 1.5-2" groups are about the norm. I don't really think they were built to be tack drivers.
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When I bought my 325wsm I looked at the Kimber Montana. Main reason I didn't get the Montana was the blind magazine, which I did not like. The secondary reason was that I found when simply doing a Google search, what seemed to me to be a not insignificant number of people who were unhappy with the accuracy of the Kimber Montana despite trying many things. I certainly found more that thought they were very accurate, but their was quite a number of people who simply could not improve better than 1.5" groups despite trying many different load combinations.
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i've heard the same about those kimbers. some shoot lights out and some don't. unfortunately i wonder if thats why the guy sold it slightly used??
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not that i want to point fingers at the scope because i love leupold but have you been able to rule out a bad scope? I had a friend put a brand new leupold on his 300WM and it was shooting about a 2 inch plus group and it was pissing him off so he tried changing scopes to a cheep scope he had on a different rifle and with a different scope he shot a 1 inch group....
also might want to do a copper check....sometimes another thing is a guy wont shoot it alot, but with that he wont clean it properly either, so you can get some copper fouling where you usually wouldnt think there would be much....take a copper solvent swab and see what the barrel looks like. if its black your good, if its blue you may want to do some more swabbing. I said swab.... :chuckle:
Good luck man, i hope you figure it out. Need any more ideas let me know i can think of a few more things that might help.....Jay.
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Steve, you joined up. Awesome. I work with Steve guys. I've seen his targets and know his frustration. Jackalope I mentioned it in another thread and you stated that same thing. After Looking up more reviews after your mention of that it seems some arnt that happy with em.
Too bad because Steve is a tack driver and a half and knows more about rifles and what not than most would ever know. He's a serious shooter.
He's used to a Ruger that will drill the same hole over and over. Dident mean to talk ya up too bad Steve. Just wanted everyone to know your way above the obious. Now he is throwing things over the wall at me. Ouch, just got hit with a moniter. Lol.
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A few things maybe or a combination. Have you played with the action screw? tighten it -shoot a group, loosen -shoot a group. Trigger feel stronger than what you like? Maybe the bedding itself. How does the bore look?
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I believe it is already glass bed, maybe it is copper fouling. I would also look at screw torques.
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If it is a pencil barrel, are you letting it cool properly between shots? That barrel will heat up quickly, especially shooting a .300wsm. That will affect accuracy.
Maybe try one of those barrel resonators that controls the vibrations.
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Thanks all for the tips. Keep 'em comming. Trigger is exceptional so rule that out. If I remember right, I don't believe the action is bedded. I believe there are aluminum pillars so at least there's a good foundation. I had thought about action screw tension too but wanted to get some bedding in there first. One reason for thinking that is the groups tightened a bit when I quit holding it with a death-grip.
I'll run some Sweet's through it too and see how green the patches come out. That is my primary solvent though and considering the round count (100?) I'm thinking it's not copper. But I'll clean her good. Better to check the easy stuff first.
I'd like to hear from some other Kimber owners. God knows their 1911's are THE sh*t! I expected the same from this rifle.
If bedding the action and "de-fouling" don't fix it, I'm thinking single point contact barrel bedding (can't remember the term exactly). Whadaya think?
Jakalope wrote;
"unfortunately i wonder if thats why the guy sold it slightly used??"
I'm wondering the same thing! Keep those ideas comming.
Steve
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"are you letting it cool properly between shots?"
Yea, I was alternating rifles.
Steve
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Maybe try one of those barrel resonators that controls the vibrations.
good idea....could just be the fact thats its a lighter weight rifle.....could have a lighter weight barrel...which would make it shoot like a mini 14.....
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steveo...you might look at this thread for a little info. i don't think there are too many kimber guys on this board, but there are a few on the fire...
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2905343/page/1
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I have a feather weight that shoots sub moa. There is no reason this one can't either. Besides what has been suggested. Check the crown closely for damage and double check the bore, maybe some jb's borepaste to smooth out roughspots? Maybe you are seeing larger groups due to your grip on the fore end as you said, have you tried just laying in on the rest and only using your trigger hand on the rifle? I know sometimes just a finger over the barrel or a slight pull on the fore-end can significantly open a group.
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Wasn't holding the forarm. It was on sandbags. I use the left hand under the butt to squeeze the rear sandbag to adjust elevation. By death-grip I meant pulling the rifle tight against my shoulder with the right hand (trigger hand).
When you say barrel resonator are you talking about one of those rubber doghnuts or a device like the browning BOSS?
I'll check the crown tonight.
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One of those rubber doughnut things.
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Stevo,
Try seating the bullet deeper in the case. My Kimber Montana will only group with the bullet at a certain depth. Using 165gr Partitions and Accubonds it groups awesome using H4350, and w760 a close second. Sunday at the range I went with a 180gr E-tip and IMR7828SSC. I'm getting 1/2" groups at 100yds. Using the same bullets and powders if the bullet is not seated at a certain depth. The groups go to *censored*t.. Weird. Finicky little bitch.
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I would try upward barrel pressure to tame the pencil barrel beast.
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Stevo,
Try seating the bullet deeper in the case. My Kimber Montana will only group with the bullet at a certain depth. Using 165gr Partitions and Accubonds it groups awesome using H4350, and w760 a close second. Sunday at the range I went with a 180gr E-tip and IMR7828SSC. I'm getting 1/2" groups at 100yds. Using the same bullets and powders if the bullet is not seated at a certain depth. The groups go to *censored*t.. Weird. Finicky little bitch.
Interesting, that little voice in my head was telling me to try 165's. I found some but just hadn't got to them yet. Was using 760 too. I was going the other direction with seating though. Trying to minimize bullet jump to .005 & .010". How far off the throat are you seating?
Here's what I found so far. Action is bedded SORT OF. Looks like it was bedded and painted but not tight at all. Might as well not have been. Mass production bedding? Crown shows no dammage. Haven't got to scrubbing it out yet. Maybe tomorrow evening.
Steve
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I just bought a pro varmit in 22-250 and it shoots sweet.
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No offence Huntboy at all but that group you posted is as bad as Steve's. Looks identicle to the 5 groups i saw on steve's target. Did you get some better ones?
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I guess after studing your taget better seems your just a hair over an inch. Not bad really, and Im sure the gun is new too you it sounds. Keep us posted on your results Huntboy. And again I appoligise. Were used to seeing 30 cal holes. Which would have appeared even better.
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No need to apologize we all have an opinion, I'm the one that spent the money on it.
I'm the only one it has to please, you are right that was shot # 6,7&8 out of the gun.
Plan to start doing some reloading soon, I'll let you know.
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Wow, if those were factory rounds there great. Cant wait to see what it does with some custom tuned ammo.
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I don't have any experience with the Kimber per se. But, my 6lb M7 in .300 SAUM shot pretty irratic from the bench too... 1.5" or so, untill I learned to really hang on to it when I shot it from the bench. I think the forend of those light rifles just likes to bounce around a lot more than the standard weights guns.
Also, that slim stock, and high scope mount due to the 50mm scope... you could be amplifying any paralax issues because of inconsitant cheek-weld. You might look into one of the stick-on cheek pads that are available from Sportsmans... they weigh nothing, and would at least give you some type of support.
Hey Hawken... it's a good thing he got the .300 WSM and not the .308 huh? We all know that 300 fps reduction would render those .30 cal bullets completely usless... probably causing them to bounce off the scull of anything larger than a field mouse!
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How come all Josh's post say Ignored? You dont know your ash from a hole in the ground Josh. Let me help. The baseball is up your ass remember?
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How come all Hawken's posts say Ignorant? You contribute nothing usefull to the post... and I'm the one who doesn't know anything? Damn man... it was a joke... JOKE... lighten up, in context... it was rather funny.
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I'm HawkenBob's bitch... he's busy with the goat and some velcro gloves right now... I guess I can't satisfy him like I used to. So, I'll come on here and defend him... since he's not smart enough to do it himself.
Thanks Trailer... that clears a lot up for us. By the way... you think you're the only one that knows how to use the quote function?
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Phase 1 of bedding complete (action only). Bedded last night and poped it out of the stock this morning. It's got a couple of voids that I'm going to need to fix where I got a little carried away with the modeling clay. It crept into an area that I wanted the acraglass to flow into. But that's pretty typical of my experiences with bedding. I'll fix those tonight and hopefully I'll get to try it out this weekend. Still have some of the Sierra 180 gr BT's left and maybe I could get some 165's loaded up by then too. I'll keep you all posted.
Steve
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I've got a Kimber Montana in 325WSM. You might have seen it in the classifieds. I tried three different kinds of factory ammo when I bought it and it only liked one of them. It would shoot a three shot group in about an inch. I started loading for it and tried about ten different loads before I found one that would group tight. I meen real tight. A three shot group that looked like I only fired two rounds. I found out that if I kept bullet weight under 200 gr. it would shoot better. The best accuracy I got was with 150 gr. bullets. Too bad the gun dosn't fit me better... Oh yeah, I also tried three different scopes on it.
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Crap! I finished bedding the action on this thing last weekend. Been waiting all week to get out to the range. So I loaded up the Kimber, a Garand, and a couple of handguns. I got all the way out to the range and realized I'd forgotten to bring any ammo for the Kimber. Doh! Stupid, stupid, stupid! It wasn't a total loss. I shot the Garand and the handguns. I'm going to the inlaw's this afternoon and we have plans for Easter so it looks like it'll be another week. I really wish I had a place that I could shoot right off the back porch instead of having to drive a half hour to shoot.
Steve
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I know this thread is already full of advice but I can only agree with some of the previous posts regarding copper fouling. I have a sako finlight in 300wsm and had some similar problems. After reading a book by one of the editors of a gun magazine that talked about the almost religious cleaning required by the 'wsm's' it made sense. The author found that his groups opened up after half as many rounds as a comparable caliber rifle (not a wsm). An entire chapter was dedicated strictly to reviewing several wsm and wssm's. And the theme was "if you want tight groups, spend a lot of time cleaning the pipe." The author gave a good review to the rifles but said if you want a low maintenance rifle, get a 30-30; if you want the Ferarri of rifles, be prepared to treat it as such. I've since found a lot better groups from the sako after lots of time consuming cleaning........
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Thanks, good to know that bit. I'll make sure to keep 'er clean. I cleaned it thoroughly with Sweets 762 copper solvent. High ammonia stuff designed to desolve the copper fouling. Got lots of the usual black crud but very little green stain. So at this point I think I'm OK on the copper situation. I'll make sure to keep it that way.
After seeing how loose the action fit the stock, I have high hopes for the new bedding.
Steve
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My experience with the Montana in 300WSM has been very positive. However, we are shooting a bit lighter bullets. I am shooting 168gr Barnes TSX with 7/8" - 1" groups consistently and better if I am on. My father is having similar results shooting 150gr Sierras out of the same model gun. Not having shot the bigger pills, I wouldn't know what kind of difference to expect, but may have an effect.
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Steveo, Make sure if all else fails to seat that bullet deeper. I tried every load bullet, powder combo out there. Wasn't until the bullet went deeper in the case that it became a dream rifle. shoot everything I try now awesome.
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Steveo, Make sure if all else fails to seat that bullet deeper. I tried every load bullet, powder combo out there. Wasn't until the bullet went deeper in the case that it became a dream rifle. shoot everything I try now awesome.
Thanks, I'll try that. How far off the throat are you seating? What cal & what is your overall case length?
Steve
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Just curious if you remedied the kimber problem and if so what was the cure/cause?
