Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 07:55:26 AM
I have a 300 blackout that he is comfortable with me using as long as it is shooting the sub-sonic heavy bullets.
My question is: what do folks think minimums are for efficient kills on deer with a slow subsonic bullet?
Some stats:
300 Blackout on AR platform
MV: 1050
Bullet: 220 grain Sierra Gamepro round nose
BC: .31
Given the slow MV, I think bullet construction is likely irrelevant - there will be no significant expansion of a bullet at sub 1,000 fps velocities. They will essentially be acting like solids or FMJ.
My thinking is, that it is probably fine to 75 yards, but anything beyond that is not good enough from an energy perspective (not to mention that the bullet would be dropping like a brick)
Here is a table I threw together
Post by: Stein on September 05, 2019, 07:59:01 AM
What about just using a muzzleloader or shotgun with slugs?
Post by: h20hunter on September 05, 2019, 08:07:20 AM
Post by: birdshooter1189 on September 05, 2019, 08:12:12 AM
So a 300 yd shot for you would be like a 1100yd shot with a win mag. I've seen videos of people taking longer shots than that with a winmag.
Keeping in mind that you won't get the same bullet expansion as you would at 2000+fps, pick shots that you are comfortable with and go for it.
Post by: JohnVH on September 05, 2019, 08:28:53 AM
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 08:30:56 AM
I agree and the lack of bullet exp would concern me. What I mean is without exp you of course limit trauma and energy transfer. I would expect an in.....maybe not an in and out. Are the neighbors friendly or likely to make a fuss if you track outside of said property? I normally would not advocate a head shot but in this case I would be likely to make sure I'm 50 yards or less and take the brain shot.
Friendly for tracking for sure. They just don't want bullets in their houses (not that I would let that happen in any case - but perception is important).
I have killed many animals with solids - however they have all been with high power big-bore firearms, not slow bullets. I too expect an in, without expansion or exit.
I think I can make 50 yards work.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
50 yards looks OK, 75 is already looking a bit sketchy.
What about just using a muzzleloader or shotgun with slugs?
ML, Bow and slug gun are all options.
There will be two of us hunting - One will use the ML, and my slug gun just is not as accurate as I would like. I think I would need to play with some different loads.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 08:33:18 AM
Using that same bullet in a full load 300 win mag would be about 2650 fps at the muzzle, and would drop to 1026fps at 800 yds. From there on out your data matches the win mag.
So a 300 yd shot for you would be like a 1100yd shot with a win mag. I've seen videos of people taking longer shots than that with a winmag.
Keeping in mind that you won't get the same bullet expansion as you would at 2000+fps, pick shots that you are comfortable with and go for it.
That is a really interesting way to look at it...
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 08:34:23 AM
Do you reload? They make a subsonic hunting bullet, made to expand at the silly slow speeds of a sub.
Great question! I did some poking earlier and did not see any (admittedly I did not spend a bunch of time looking)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 08:40:35 AM
Using that same bullet in a full load 300 win mag would be about 2650 fps at the muzzle, and would drop to 1026fps at 800 yds. From there on out your data matches the win mag.I don’t think anyone’s taking 1100 yard shots with that bullet.
So a 300 yd shot for you would be like a 1100yd shot with a win mag. I've seen videos of people taking longer shots than that with a winmag.
Keeping in mind that you won't get the same bullet expansion as you would at 2000+fps, pick shots that you are comfortable with and go for it.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:01:39 AM
People do take shots at the 800 to 900 yard distance with a 300WM (Not me!) and they are confident in making a clean kill.
Post by: h20hunter on September 05, 2019, 09:05:47 AM
I think CP has done some low velocity testing in this. Not sure ifvhe has put the smack down though.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 09:05:57 AM
Bullet aside, I think the comparison is valid. if a given bullet drops to 1050 fps in a 300 WM at 800 yards, and you load the same bullet in a 300 BO with a MV of 1050, then the "kill power" of the two are essentially the same in terms of performance.
People do take shots at the 800 to 900 yard distance with a 300WM (Not me!) and they are confident in making a clean kill.
I can assure those type of guys aren’t using a round nose turd of a bullet at that kind of range. So that comparison really does nothing.
I don’t have or haven’t shot a blackout but there are ammo out there meant for hunting that supposedly will expand at lower velocity.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:15:11 AM
Bullet aside, I think the comparison is valid. if a given bullet drops to 1050 fps in a 300 WM at 800 yards, and you load the same bullet in a 300 BO with a MV of 1050, then the "kill power" of the two are essentially the same in terms of performance.
People do take shots at the 800 to 900 yard distance with a 300WM (Not me!) and they are confident in making a clean kill.
I can assure those type of guys aren’t using a round nose turd of a bullet at that kind of range. So that comparison really does nothing.
I don’t have or haven’t shot a blackout but there are ammo out there meant for hunting that supposedly will expand at lower velocity.
Totally agree, but the bullet is somewhat irrelevant to the comparison isn't it? The point being if you loaded up a 220 grain Berger match bullet to be subsonic at the muzzle and shot it out of a blackout, and loaded it up in a 300 WM so that it hit 1050 fps at 800 yards, the ballistics, energy, bullet drop, etc will basically be the same from that point on, right?
i.e. 850 yards in the WM = 50 yards in the Blackout...
(not being difficult, just discussing it!)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 09:16:46 AM
yes the bullet moving th same speed is obviously going the same speed but that is a pointless comparison that doesn’t achieve anything. :dunno:Bullet aside, I think the comparison is valid. if a given bullet drops to 1050 fps in a 300 WM at 800 yards, and you load the same bullet in a 300 BO with a MV of 1050, then the "kill power" of the two are essentially the same in terms of performance.
People do take shots at the 800 to 900 yard distance with a 300WM (Not me!) and they are confident in making a clean kill.
I can assure those type of guys aren’t using a round nose turd of a bullet at that kind of range. So that comparison really does nothing.
I don’t have or haven’t shot a blackout but there are ammo out there meant for hunting that supposedly will expand at lower velocity.
Totally agree, but the bullet is somewhat irrelevant to the comparison isn't it? The point being if you loaded up a 220 grain Berger match bullet to be subsonic at the muzzle and shot it out of a blackout, and loaded it up in a 300 WM so that it hit 1050 fps at 800 yards, the ballistics, energy, bullet drop, etc will basically be the same from that point on, right?
i.e. 850 yards in the WM = 50 yards in the Blackout...
(not being difficult, just discussing it!)
Post by: kselkhunter on September 05, 2019, 09:19:17 AM
For 300 Blackout, if you reload give Andrew at Hawk a call and describe the scenario and he can recommend a bullet. I think their 200gr x.025 RT moving at subsonic speeds should probably work for your needs and give expansion. That bullet is designed to open at lower velocities. http://hawkbullets.com/bullet-selection.html
Post by: Buckjunkie on September 05, 2019, 09:20:35 AM
I would think a heavy slow bullet would have a better chance of a pass through shot unless you hit a bunch of bones...both shoulders or an end to end shot. Since it’s a Doe you probably want to save meat.
I would think a light fast caliber like the .243 with a thin skinned bullet would have less of a chance of ending up in a house due to the rapid expansion.
Might be hard to convince the landowners of this if they get their information from the news or Hollywood.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:23:50 AM
yes the bullet moving th same speed is obviously going the same speed but that is a pointless comparison that doesn’t achieve anything. :dunno:Bullet aside, I think the comparison is valid. if a given bullet drops to 1050 fps in a 300 WM at 800 yards, and you load the same bullet in a 300 BO with a MV of 1050, then the "kill power" of the two are essentially the same in terms of performance.
People do take shots at the 800 to 900 yard distance with a 300WM (Not me!) and they are confident in making a clean kill.
I can assure those type of guys aren’t using a round nose turd of a bullet at that kind of range. So that comparison really does nothing.
I don’t have or haven’t shot a blackout but there are ammo out there meant for hunting that supposedly will expand at lower velocity.
Totally agree, but the bullet is somewhat irrelevant to the comparison isn't it? The point being if you loaded up a 220 grain Berger match bullet to be subsonic at the muzzle and shot it out of a blackout, and loaded it up in a 300 WM so that it hit 1050 fps at 800 yards, the ballistics, energy, bullet drop, etc will basically be the same from that point on, right?
i.e. 850 yards in the WM = 50 yards in the Blackout...
(not being difficult, just discussing it!)
What I pull from the comparison is:
-if someone was willing to take a deer at 900 yards with a 300 WM and feel the chosen bullet will effectively and ethically kill, then that same person should be willing to take that same bullet and feel it will ethically kill from the 300 BO loaded subsonic at 100 yards.
Which was sort of the heart of my question. Can a heavy subsonic bullet fired from a 300 blackout be used to make an efficient kill in the 50 to 100 yard range.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:29:03 AM
Rob,
I would think a heavy slow bullet would have a better chance of a pass through shot unless you hit a bunch of bones...both shoulders or an end to end shot. Since it’s a Doe you probably want to save meat.
I would think a light fast caliber like the .243 with a thin skinned bullet would have less of a chance of ending up in a house due to the rapid expansion.
Might be hard to convince the landowners of this if they get their information from the news or Hollywood.
He is a Vietnam Vet so he gets it. Interesting point on the fast "exploding" bullet concept.
I think the benefit of the slow fat bullet is that it will fall like a brick even if a miss happens. Heck, at 300 yards it will have dropped 10 feet! The closest house is probably over 300 yards away in most cases.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 09:35:43 AM
The 300 win mag bullets that guys are using to effectively kill at 900 or more yards is still moving at 1800+ FPS. So the comparison just doesn’t work.yes the bullet moving th same speed is obviously going the same speed but that is a pointless comparison that doesn’t achieve anything. :dunno:Bullet aside, I think the comparison is valid. if a given bullet drops to 1050 fps in a 300 WM at 800 yards, and you load the same bullet in a 300 BO with a MV of 1050, then the "kill power" of the two are essentially the same in terms of performance.
People do take shots at the 800 to 900 yard distance with a 300WM (Not me!) and they are confident in making a clean kill.
I can assure those type of guys aren’t using a round nose turd of a bullet at that kind of range. So that comparison really does nothing.
I don’t have or haven’t shot a blackout but there are ammo out there meant for hunting that supposedly will expand at lower velocity.
Totally agree, but the bullet is somewhat irrelevant to the comparison isn't it? The point being if you loaded up a 220 grain Berger match bullet to be subsonic at the muzzle and shot it out of a blackout, and loaded it up in a 300 WM so that it hit 1050 fps at 800 yards, the ballistics, energy, bullet drop, etc will basically be the same from that point on, right?
i.e. 850 yards in the WM = 50 yards in the Blackout...
(not being difficult, just discussing it!)
I’m not saying that there isn’t any 300 blackout rounds that will kill deer at 100 yards because I just don’t know and don’t have any experience, but the comparison to a 300 win at extended range with the same bullet in the blackout just doesn’t work.
What I pull from the comparison is:
-if someone was willing to take a deer at 900 yards with a 300 WM and feel the chosen bullet will effectively and ethically kill, then that same person should be willing to take that same bullet and feel it will ethically kill from the 300 BO loaded subsonic at 100 yards.
Which was sort of the heart of my question. Can a heavy subsonic bullet fired from a 300 blackout be used to make an efficient kill in the 50 to 100 yard range.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:38:20 AM
the comparison to a 300 win at extended range with the same bullet in the blackout just doesn’t work.
Why does it not work? Not being difficult, just trying to understand.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:40:26 AM
The 300 win mag bullets that guys are using to effectively kill at 900 or more yards is still moving at 1800+ FPS. So the comparison just doesn’t work.
I missed this part of your message as it was buried.
I see the point you are making.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:41:31 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 05, 2019, 09:42:01 AM
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:43:46 AM
Post by: KFhunter on September 05, 2019, 09:46:21 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 09:48:30 AM
The 300 win mag bullets that guys are using to effectively kill at 900 or more yards is still moving at 1800+ FPS. So the comparison just doesn’t work.
I missed this part of your message as it was buried.
I see the point you are making.
Oops. Too many quotes. :chuckle:
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:49:05 AM
A muzzleloader may be a better option.
For 300 Blackout, if you reload give Andrew at Hawk a call and describe the scenario and he can recommend a bullet. I think their 200gr x.025 RT moving at subsonic speeds should probably work for your needs and give expansion. That bullet is designed to open at lower velocities. http://hawkbullets.com/bullet-selection.html
interesting site, thanks
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 09:51:09 AM
https://www.lehighdefense.com/308-maximum-expansion-194gr-subsonic-bullet
Very interesting - Not cheap!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 09:53:15 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on September 05, 2019, 09:58:49 AM
https://www.lehighdefense.com/308-maximum-expansion-194gr-subsonic-bullet
Very interesting - Not cheap!
Midway carries that Lehigh bullet in loaded ammo from Underwood. It's in stock, if you didn't want to reload. They also have in stock the 260gr round nose soft point hunting ammo from Atomic that should work nicely on deer.
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 10:04:49 AM
I am interested to see the results of this, so if you do end up using your blackout can you please post up some info and pictures?
you bet.
kselkhunter/KFhunter: those Lehigh bullets are wicked looking. I may have to play around with those.
Post by: birdshooter1189 on September 05, 2019, 10:27:26 AM
I generally run 208gr A-max for the winmag and 110 gr z-max for the blackout. I shoot mostly paper and an occasional coyote and mostly less than 100 yds.
If your primary concern is ricochet's and the bullet carrying far, I fully stand behind the previous comment of a small bullet going fast will be safer than a heavy bullet going slow. Small bullets going fast break apart/deform and lose energy faster.
If noise (perception of neighbors) is the primary concern, then i'd go with the heavy and ultra fast expanding options that were mentioned.
Post by: Yondering on September 05, 2019, 10:50:36 AM
I am interested to see the results of this, so if you do end up using your blackout can you please post up some info and pictures?
you bet.
kselkhunter/KFhunter: those Lehigh bullets are wicked looking. I may have to play around with those.
Not cheap, but if you're going to hunt with subsonic 30 cal, that's the bullet to use.
It sounds like there's a significant misunderstanding about heavy subsonics from both the landowner and yourself - a heavy subsonic 30 cal penetrates far FAR more than the same bullet pushed to reasonable hunting rifle velocity. I have some experience with this, and can say for sure that you will absolutely get complete pass through with that 220gr RN on deer from any angle, with the possible exception of a front or rear shot directly into and along the spine. The lack of expansion means very little energy transfer, i.e. not much force acting to slow down the bullet.
Using a non-expanding heavy subsonic (which means pretty much any 30 cal heavy, except those specifically designed for subsonic expansion) gives far more likelihood of excessive penetration, ricochets, and danger to homes than any other bullet or cartridge choice. It is literally the worst option you could possibly choose for that application.
Besides all that, it's a very poor choice for hunting because they do so little damage. If you insist on using them, you should plan on only taking head shots or spine shots. Other than the capability for better accuracy, you're better off using archery than a non-expanding subsonic 30 caliber.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 05, 2019, 10:54:06 AM
This one looks similar but doesn’t have the fancy black paint. Maybe it’s good?
http://www.shootersproshop.com/ssa-300-aac-220-grain-ballistic-tip-round-nose-ammunition-blem-20ct.html
Post by: KFhunter on September 05, 2019, 11:39:48 AM
(I still don't recommend head shots)
They're a different beast, so if you're a reloader you'll have to rethink/relearn to shoot small groups while subsonic.
Seems the guys getting the most accuracy are using bolt guns with a small amount of fast burn powder.
So ya, it seems to be an art to shoot accurate while subsonic
Post by: CP on September 05, 2019, 01:44:58 PM
@CP
I think CP has done some low velocity testing in this. Not sure ifvhe has put the smack down though.
Yep. I’ve shot the 220 grain Sierra Gamepro round nose into ballistics gel at 1050 fps and they just zip straight through and keep going. You would be better off using a supersonic load that expands and stays in the deer, or better yet a shotgun with slugs.
Post by: 10mmg on September 05, 2019, 02:00:21 PM
Post by: Rob on September 05, 2019, 02:54:15 PM
I ordered some of the Lehigh bullets and will experiment with them to see if I can get them to shoot. This will be my preferred bullet if I can get groups. I did toy with these, but thought heavier would be better: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018299340?pid=829338.
Suppressed sub-sonic is a whole new world for sure.
A through and through shot is actually OK with me, if it groups - and at 50 to 75 yards I am happy with 2 MOA for deer. I have taken 5-6 impala, a vervet, a klipspringer, a mule deer, a hippo, and probably several other animals with solids (large caliber, fast moving of course.) All were dead in there tracks with pass-throughs and limited internal damage. The issue comes when you have a poorly placed shot.
My concern was that such a fat slow bullet would not have good penetration but it sounds like I was way off on that. (this is why I ask lots of questions)
Will be spending Sept and early Oct. looking at load development and then hopefully field testing in late October! Will post results.
Post by: Yondering on September 05, 2019, 04:59:48 PM
Fast moving solids are a whole different thing than subsonics; velocity actually does matter and plenty of it makes a solid still effective, especially on large heavy game and if you hit bone. When things slow down to 900-1000 fps with a RN or SP solid, not much damage happens in meat, unless bone is hit to create some secondary wounding fragments. A flat point does a little better, but a 30 cal flat point is still pretty small and does not work as well as a big bore handgun flat point. If you do some careful reading of subsonic 300 Blk hunting accounts, most guys who have success with traditional bullets (non-expanding at subsonic speeds) hit shoulder bone, spine, or head. The few who are willing to admit lost animals usually describe shots into meat and organs without hitting those areas.
You mention a "fat slow bullet", but heavy 30 calibers are not a "fat" bullet; they're thin with a lot of weight behind them, and at low speed there's not much happening in meat to slow them down. Even in wood target backers or live trees, depending on the bullet the penetration is a matter of feet, not inches. A heavy "fat" bullet like a 300 gr .45 for example is a whole different story, with enough frontal area to cause damage and slow down the bullet.
That Lehigh or other bullets designed for subsonic expansion give you a lot more margin for error, better chance at recovering the animal, and a lot less chance of over penetration. This is one area where cast hollow point bullets really shine since it's easier to get expansion with soft lead than with jacketed bullets. If you're not a bullet caster though that may not help, I don't know of a commercial source for any that really work well.
I do fully agree with the other recommendations for a light weight high velocity bullet if you're looking for reduced penetration. Convincing the land owner may be a different story though.
Post by: meatwhack on September 05, 2019, 05:38:35 PM
Post by: Rob on September 16, 2019, 07:00:01 AM
Looking like 9.3ish grains of Lil Gun will work for the Lehigh's.
Post by: Rob on September 16, 2019, 07:20:07 AM
one more round of testing with the Lehighs to get it closer to 1050, some hotter loads with the Sierras to do the same, and perhaps some hotter loads for my plinker round (the plated bullets)
Then it is on to accuracy verification
Time is ticking!
Post by: Yondering on September 17, 2019, 12:13:46 PM
If you don't already know - the noise of a supersonic crack doesn't happen at one specific velocity number; it's a gradual range that is roughly between 1,000-1,200 fps where pushing faster makes the crack louder. This varies with temperature of course, in summer time we can push 1,050-1,080 fps fairly quietly, but in winter need to go slower. The sound of the shot is still less at lower velocity anyway. For my quietest subsonics I try to stick to about 900 fps; there is a noticeable difference between that and 1,000 fps. (when shooting suppressed of course)
Post by: Rob on September 17, 2019, 02:00:01 PM
updated table with new data points below. Again, ignore the averages (just a feature of the pivot tables)
Some observations:
-I had two failure to pick up velocity on the plated bullets (the #Div/0! cells). They sounded sub-sonic though
-oddly my velocities dropped with the Sierra Pro hunter bullets in the 11.7 to 12.3 grain range. no idea why. Was also not getting the bolt to lock open at those speeds. I was pretty careful with my loading and labeling process so I do not think they were mis-labeld or weighed...
-similar situation with the 9.3 and 9.2 grain loads with the Lehigh's All the other readings are single shot strings - these two were 3 shot averages). could just be that .1 grains is not enough to make a significant difference in speed for a 194 grain bullet.
Based on your comments, I think I agree... 9.1 grains of Lil Gun on the Lehigh's. I might do a 9, 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3 load to see if the different charges group differently.
Post by: Yondering on September 17, 2019, 03:01:24 PM
Post by: Rob on September 17, 2019, 03:54:49 PM
I am feeling pretty good about that 9.1 grain load being in-between 900 and 1000 fps. Will load some of those up and test them out.
Post by: Yondering on September 18, 2019, 09:21:12 AM
Post by: Rob on September 18, 2019, 11:19:36 AM
Post by: Rob on September 30, 2019, 08:07:01 AM
Spent most of my time at 50 yards and left with a 50 yard zero on the rifle. I was most interested in the Lehighs but I did shoot 3 groups of 3 in the Sierras. I did not have a chrony, but as far as my ears could tell, everything stayed subsonic. Observations:
- All four load/bullet combo shot about the same in terms of group size – averaging about 1.25 at 50 yards and 1.50 at 100 yards.
- The 9.2 grain loads grouped a bit tighter than the 9.0 grain loads in the Lehighs. The averages in the table below don’t show it, but two of the groups of the 9.2 grain loads were under an inch.
- As expected, both the Lehighs and Sierras had similar zeros at 50 yards regardless of powder charges used in my tests. At 100 yards the 11.5 grain loaded sierras and the 9.0 grain loaded Lehighs had similar POI. But bumping the Sierras to 12 grains moved the POI up by 3 inches! I was out of 9.2 grain loads of lehighs so I could not do a similar compare.
-For the Lehighs, they all fed and cycled flawlessly and the bolt catch engaged properly to keep the breech open after the final round in the magazine was fired.
-For the Sierras, all rounds fed and cycled flawlessly - however about 50-75% of the time the bolt catch did not engage on the final round in the magazine to keep the breach open. Some gas block tuning might resolve that.
Net/Net: I am satisfied enough with the accuracy and performance of the Lehighs out to 100 yards to use them in a hunting situation. The bullet drop makes me nervous though. As zeroed right now, I feel good with 0 to 75 yard shots.
Not positive I can get back out to do one more set of tests, but if I do, I want to look at the following:
1: If I zero at 100 yards with the 9.2 grain loads on the Lehighs, what will the POI be at 50 yards?
2: Would like to get chrony data for at least 10 more shots on the Lehighs.
Thanks again to all for the recommendations – I hope this data is somewhat useful to others!
Will report back if I get back to the range, and again after I see how they perform on deer (should I get a shot)
Post by: Rob on September 30, 2019, 08:11:26 AM
POI dropped 4 inches with the suppressor. I understand this is due to barrel harmonics, but I would be interested to do this again over a chrony to see if there are any velocity changes.
Post by: birdshooter1189 on September 30, 2019, 08:48:43 AM
My opinion is that due to recoil, the rifle starts to climb before the bullet leaves the barrel. With more weight on the end of the barrel, it rises less, thus making it hit lower.
Post by: Yondering on September 30, 2019, 10:19:48 AM
Side note. I slapped the suppressor on my bolt action 7mm Rem Mag and shot a couple groups at 200 yards (both with and without the suppressor)
POI dropped 4 inches with the suppressor. I understand this is due to barrel harmonics, but I would be interested to do this again over a chrony to see if there are any velocity changes.
First about the 50 yd POI with 300 Blk subsonic zeroed at 100 yards, you should expect ~3.5" high at 50 if you have a fairly typical AR setup.
You'll also be about 3.5-4" low at 120 yards, so you need to be very careful with your range estimates; I use a rangefinder a lot but when estimating by eye I still find it easy in the woods to be off by 20-40 yards and that can make a big difference with any subsonic loads. I do zero mine at 100 yards.
On the suppressor changing POI - yes it is partly barrel harmonics, but mostly just that you've hung a weight on the end of the barrel. A drop in POI is to be expected with all but the stiffest heavy barrels; if POI goes somewhere else other than down your suppressor may be affecting bullet flight, either through misalignment or just baffle design.
POI drop in most of my rifles ranges from 0.5 to 1.0 mils down; that's something you have to test on each rifle and just write down or remember for future reference.
Post by: CP on September 30, 2019, 10:46:12 AM
On the suppressor changing POI - yes it is partly barrel harmonics, but mostly just that you've hung a weight on the end of the barrel.
Bingo - I have a pretty heavy suppressor and when I hang it on my 10" bull barrel there is hardly any change on POI - On my 16" pretty stiff barrel there is a 3" shift at 200 yards, on my 22" thin tapered barrel there is a 7" shift at 200y. Always down.
Post by: Rob on October 14, 2019, 08:43:37 AM
I had put an 85 yard zero on it and my range testing had me 2 inches high at 50 and 2 inches low at 100. Figured that was a "minute of deer" for a vitals shot out to 100, with some reasonable hold-overs out to 130..
The deer came in at 100 yards and I waited till it was at 85 and took the shot. Dropped it like a sack of flour. Bullet did not exit - although I looked for it and could not locate it. It was last light so it must have been in there somewhere, I was just unable to find it.
Anyway, Thanks to all for the help. The Lehighs worked most excellent, and the advise was greatly appreciated.
Post by: Yondering on October 14, 2019, 09:44:54 AM
Post by: TooTallMike on October 14, 2019, 10:12:26 AM
I have experience with the Lehigh bullets and I'm curious as to what your twist rate and barrel length are. Because they play big factors when it comes to sub loads.
My current go to recipe is
9.8gr of H110
2.275 COAL
Get 1055 fps all day
Sub moa at 50yds.
My gun set up is a Remington 700 pistol with a 9 inch custom barrel
Have a 1/7 twist but wish I'd went with a 1/5.
Congrats on the deer 👍
Post by: JohnVH on October 14, 2019, 11:11:27 AM
Post by: Rob on October 14, 2019, 11:22:58 AM
-Proof Research Carbon Fiber 416 SS .980 16 in. 1:7 twist Contour PR15C160220BAA with matched bolt. Journal size .750 . Muzzle 5/8x24 thread. Carbine length gas system
My velocities are in the table above - I am very precise with my loading but I see a +/- 50 fps with my chrony (not sure if that is my gun, my loading, or my chrony!)
I was not able to do much with accuracy testing due to time. I was getting 50 yard groups that ranged from 6/10'ths to 1.5 inches. Consider also that I am also a lousy shot...
I was shooting the Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion 01308194LP
Post by: TooTallMike on October 14, 2019, 11:36:49 AM
Post by: Yondering on October 14, 2019, 11:52:47 AM
Great job!
I have experience with the Lehigh bullets and I'm curious as to what your twist rate and barrel length are. Because they play big factors when it comes to sub loads.
My current go to recipe is
9.8gr of H110
2.275 COAL
Get 1055 fps all day
Sub moa at 50yds.
My gun set up is a Remington 700 pistol with a 9 inch custom barrel
Have a 1/7 twist but wish I'd went with a 1/5.
Congrats on the deer 👍
If you're using a bolt action and not an AR then you can make your loads a good bit quieter with a faster powder. Only reason magnum pistol powders are used for 300 Blk subsonics is to cycle an AR15 action; you don't need that extra gas in a bolt gun. Try powders in the burn rate range between Bullseye and Unique for quieter bolt gun loads.
Also, dropping the speed down to 1,000 fps or lower will make your loads quieter as well.
Post by: Rob on October 14, 2019, 12:10:53 PM
I figured minute of deer for sub 100 yard shots was good enough for now.
Post by: Goshawk on October 17, 2019, 08:03:16 PM
There are a whole lot better choices for big game in the SUR (sport utility rifle) platform than the 300 whisper for hunting in the Pacific Northwest from 6.5 Grendel to the 308/223, 450 Bushmaster and any of the WSSM based cartridges. What you don't want to be is under powered should you get a nice shot at a big bear or buck.
Just my .02 of experience.
Post by: Rob on October 18, 2019, 04:37:05 AM
The reason for the blackout is the specific location i am hunting. Small private tree farm about 150 acres in size. The landowner has neighbors with kids and does not want bullets leaving the property so he has limited hunting to muzzle loader and archery. I was given permission to use a subsonic 300 BO. Otherwise I would be on my 7mm RM!
I enjoy the AR platform but for many reasons my personal preference for hunting is a nice bolt gun. Perhaps i now have a soild reason to invest in a new threaded bolt gun in 300 blackout! There is a hole in the safe about that size...
Post by: JohnVH on October 18, 2019, 07:56:15 AM
Post by: Goshawk on October 20, 2019, 12:38:30 PM
Post by: h20hunter on November 06, 2019, 06:06:15 PM
@jrebel