Post by: HarboritE on November 02, 2019, 03:41:32 PM
Post by: 300rum on November 02, 2019, 03:52:00 PM
Get 3 boxes of premium ammunition, shoot in 3-5 round groups to see which one shoots the best, then buy a few cases (4-5 cases, at least, if you are young) of the ammo that shoots the best. You'll be just fine if you do what I say.
Post by: TVHunts on November 02, 2019, 03:54:50 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 02, 2019, 04:16:46 PM
Stick with what you got, practice with it and build up your distance comfort level..a 3x9 is plenty for 400 if you know how to use it. If you desire a new scope focus on clarity, not power. A really clear 3x9 or 4x12 is perfect for blacktail. 44 or bigger objective lense for light gathering and your good...then lots of trigger time..step angles, different positions, different wind...etc.
Post by: Bill W on November 02, 2019, 04:28:00 PM
Post by: Dan-o on November 02, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
High powered scope wont make you a 400 shooter...I know guys that with enough practice are surgical at distance with fixed 4x to 6x scopes.. practice makes you a 400yd shooter..
Stick with what you got, practice with it and build up your distance comfort level..a 3x9 is plenty for 400 if you know how to use it. If you desire a new scope focus on clarity, not power. A really clear 3x9 or 4x12 is perfect for blacktail. 44 or bigger objective lense for light gathering and your good...then lots of trigger time..step angles, different positions, different wind...etc.
Agreed.
My personal limit happens to be 400 yards..... which only occurs under optimal conditions.
I'm sure that in the right hands my rifle is capable of much more, but I don't practice past 400.
Personally, I'd find out which of those two rifles in most accurate and then start practicing and stretching your distance. There is no substitute for practice..... besides, the confidence of shooting within your skill et will make a huge difference.
3X9 is plenty to 400 yards.
Post by: fish vacuum on November 02, 2019, 04:45:22 PM
I don't see anything saying you've tried either of your rifles at 400.
I don't see anything saying you've ever shot at 400.
I do see a statement that you haven't rifle hunted in 10 years.
Missed opportunities because of distance are part of hunting.
Post by: buckfvr on November 02, 2019, 04:52:08 PM
Post by: jackelope on November 02, 2019, 04:54:02 PM
I don't see anything saying you're going to practice a lot.
I don't see anything saying you've tried either of your rifles at 400.
I don't see anything saying you've ever shot at 400.
I do see a statement that you haven't rifle hunted in 10 years.
Missed opportunities because of distance are part of hunting.
He actually says he hasn’t done any of those things but will be in the future.
Post by: Bofire on November 02, 2019, 06:02:12 PM
Carl
Post by: yorketransport on November 02, 2019, 06:18:52 PM
It sounds like the scopes might be older models, so maybe seeing the deer well enough to make a good shot at 400 yards is an issue. If that's the case, you can get a scope for around $300 which will be as good as you'll ever need.
If it's just a confidence issue then spend some more time practicing. I don't actually think 400 yards is that far once you've got a little trigger time in. The trick is being able to accurately range to that 400 yards. It's pretty tough to judge distance in the field some times and the difference between a 300 yard shot and a 375 yard shot is enough to cause problems. If you're going to shoot critters past 250 yards, you really need a rangefinder.
Post by: Zardoz on November 02, 2019, 06:40:40 PM
I hunt with and love my 243, have killed several deer and lots of coyotes with it, it is NOT a 400 yard gun the bullet weight and energy is just not there. Can it be done? YES. go with the 06 /put on a great scope and practice,practice,practice.
Carl
:yeah: And maybe a better scope. Can't hit what you can't see. :twocents:
Post by: MADMAX on November 02, 2019, 06:44:18 PM
Heck of nice scope for the money
Post by: Alchase on November 02, 2019, 06:47:56 PM
The trick is being able to accurately range to that 400 yards. It's pretty tough to judge distance in the field some times and the difference between a 300 yard shot and a 375 yard shot is enough to cause problems. If you're going to shoot critters past 250 yards, you really need a rangefinder.
Human eyes are horrible at estimating longer distances. Take your range finder out and start guessing distances, then range them. You will see how bad we usually are at guesstimating ranges.
I have gotten in the habit when setting up to watch over an area to range different items within view so I have a general idea of the ranges if something steps out.
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on November 02, 2019, 06:50:55 PM
Post by: Stein on November 02, 2019, 06:58:20 PM
.243 is fine, especially for someone recoil sensitive, but you will get much cleaner kills and less ruined meat with the good ol -06. The 243 bullet is designed to come apart to kill to compensate for the lack of mass. It does the job but leaves much more blown apart and bloodshot meat.
Post by: fish vacuum on November 02, 2019, 08:13:49 PM
I don't see anything saying you're going to practice a lot.
I don't see anything saying you've tried either of your rifles at 400.
I don't see anything saying you've ever shot at 400.
I do see a statement that you haven't rifle hunted in 10 years.
Missed opportunities because of distance are part of hunting.
He actually says he hasn’t done any of those things but will be in the future.
He says he'll be doing research.
Post by: tgomez on November 02, 2019, 08:16:50 PM
Post by: jasnt on November 02, 2019, 08:46:57 PM
Post by: the1rod on November 02, 2019, 09:25:30 PM
I don't see anything saying you're going to practice a lot.
I don't see anything saying you've tried either of your rifles at 400.
I don't see anything saying you've ever shot at 400.
I do see a statement that you haven't rifle hunted in 10 years.
Missed opportunities because of distance are part of hunting.
He actually says he hasn’t done any of those things but will be in the future.
He says he'll be doing research.
What did you want him to do? Lay out a step by step plan for you? He's on here asking for suggestions and information, that's the right first step to make. Lots of practice is what people are suggesting, and that's a great next step, after he decides what rifle to use, which is what he was asking about. So what are you getting at here? Do you want him to waste a bunch of time and money to find out the hard way and then ask questions??
Post by: bobcat on November 02, 2019, 10:21:18 PM
Post by: HarboritE on November 03, 2019, 07:19:17 AM
Post by: RockChuck on November 03, 2019, 07:34:59 AM
Post by: 300rum on November 03, 2019, 07:45:02 AM
Pulling the trigger back without disrupting the sights is the hardest part. You can literally shoot in any conceivable position and make all your hits if you can do this. Off hand, kneeling, tree branch, as long as you can pull the trigger without disrupting your sights, you are good. Trigger work can literally be done without any ammunition and at first is best done without ammunition. All you need to do is dryfire. Pick a small target at any range and practice pulling the trigger without disturbing the sights. Keep your eyes open through the entire process of pulling the trigger in dryfire, and watch the sight for any movement. Your eyes will tell you where the bullet will hit at the very moment your shot breaks in dryfire. This is called "calling the shot"
When you do get to live fire you need to learn to keep your eyes open through the break of the shot. Even in live fire, you can literally know where the bullet will go before it leaves the barrel, your eyes will tell you if you can keep your eyes open. To do this, video yourself or have someone stand to the side and watch your eyes to see if you are blinking. After time you will be able to keep your eyes open through the break of the shot and you will become a better rifleman.
Lanny Bassham won an Olympic Gold Medal with very limited live fire practice. Mostly it was dryfire. He has a great book "With Winning in Mind".
The fact is that most people close their eyes right at the point of breaking the shot, they have no clue where the bullet went at ignition. Watch MLB catchers for instance, it amazes me how many close their eyes just prior to catching a pitch. Watch a catcher who muffs a pitch in the dirt, if you can see it, most of the time they have their eyes closed!
Once you have a rifle that is sighted in with acceptable ammo and you have your holdovers down, it is all about the trigger and letting your eyes tell your finger what to do and when to do it.
Post by: Igor on November 03, 2019, 07:56:00 AM
243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Post by: yorketransport on November 03, 2019, 08:03:29 AM
243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.
Post by: Tjv28 on November 03, 2019, 08:35:00 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on November 03, 2019, 09:02:36 AM
Post by: Igor on November 03, 2019, 09:11:30 AM
243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.
That's about as naive a statement as I've seen on here. If a hunter is going to shoot an animal at 400 yards, he had better have adequate energy to compensate for less than perfect shot placement. If the round he is shooting has minimal energy to do the job, then he had better be very selective in the shots he takes...............and most hunters are NOT. And, the .243 falls into the category of minimal kinetic energy to kill a deer at 400 yards with perfect shot placement.
Read this:
Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm
Post by: mountainman on November 03, 2019, 09:41:28 AM
But it sure hedges success in your favor 😉243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.
Post by: builtfordtough on November 03, 2019, 09:55:21 AM
Post by: yorketransport on November 03, 2019, 10:19:16 AM
243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.
That's about as naive a statement as I've seen on here. If a hunter is going to shoot an animal at 400 yards, he had better have adequate energy to compensate for less than perfect shot placement. If the round he is shooting has minimal energy to do the job, then he had better be very selective in the shots he takes...............and most hunters are NOT. And, the .243 falls into the category of minimal kinetic energy to kill a deer at 400 yards with perfect shot placement.
Read this:
Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm
Again, 400 yards just isn't that far for anyone who practices even occasionally. Not to mention that I see hunters taking more bad shots at close range than they do at long range.
Choose your source material carefully, this is a direct copy and paste from the link you posted. You left out part of the section you quoted.
Quote
Energy and killing power
Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets. And it is, in fact, a reasonable indicator. But it is by no means the only factor, or even the most important factor. Energy gives us an idea of how much power there is to initiate things like bullet expansion and penetration, but does not guarantee that they will occur.
The argument over kinetic energy, momentum, optimum game weight formulas, Taylor knockout values or killing power as measured in units of of pixie dust per acre are all just arbitrary numbers. Animals die because the oxygen supply has been cut off to the brain. Than can happen as a result of damage to the CNS which causes the brain to stop functioning, or by stopping the flow of oxygen to the brain through lack of blood. A bullet into a deer's heart at 400 yards from a 243 Win will kill just as well as a bullet from a 416 Rigby at the same distance. Bullet performance has a much greater influence on lethality than any numerical value ever will.
To the OP, go out and practice with whichever gun shoots better for you and have fun. Hitting an 8" target at 400 yards under field conditions isn't that tough. :twocents:
Post by: 300rum on November 03, 2019, 10:29:28 AM
After the hunt they all sat around the fire talking kinetic energy (not). :chuckle:
What happened is that we used to have a nation of rifleman. Not Riflesmen, as in plural rifles, they had one rifle and had it for many, many years and knew how to use it. The gun magazines made us Tiffany and Co. hunters and an Apple app. now makes us shooters.
There are literally guys on here who pull out a telephone, a range finder, and a kestrel to shoot a deer. Here's a secret, you don't need to do that!
Post by: RockChuck on November 03, 2019, 10:37:29 AM
Post by: Igor on November 03, 2019, 12:34:43 PM
243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.
That's about as naive a statement as I've seen on here. If a hunter is going to shoot an animal at 400 yards, he had better have adequate energy to compensate for less than perfect shot placement. If the round he is shooting has minimal energy to do the job, then he had better be very selective in the shots he takes...............and most hunters are NOT. And, the .243 falls into the category of minimal kinetic energy to kill a deer at 400 yards with perfect shot placement.
Read this:
Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm
Again, 400 yards just isn't that far for anyone who practices even occasionally. Not to mention that I see hunters taking more bad shots at close range than they do at long range.
Choose your source material carefully, this is a direct copy and paste from the link you posted. You left out part of the section you quoted.QuoteEnergy and killing power
Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets. And it is, in fact, a reasonable indicator. But it is by no means the only factor, or even the most important factor. Energy gives us an idea of how much power there is to initiate things like bullet expansion and penetration, but does not guarantee that they will occur.
The argument over kinetic energy, momentum, optimum game weight formulas, Taylor knockout values or killing power as measured in units of of pixie dust per acre are all just arbitrary numbers. Animals die because the oxygen supply has been cut off to the brain. Than can happen as a result of damage to the CNS which causes the brain to stop functioning, or by stopping the flow of oxygen to the brain through lack of blood. A bullet into a deer's heart at 400 yards from a 243 Win will kill just as well as a bullet from a 416 Rigby at the same distance. Bullet performance has a much greater influence on lethality than any numerical value ever will.
To the OP, go out and practice with whichever gun shoots better for you and have fun. Hitting an 8" target at 400 yards under field conditions isn't that tough. :twocents:
I chose my source material VERY carefully. As to leaving part out, that is why I posted a link, so anyone interested could read the entire article if they chose to do so.
As far as putting "A bullet into a deer's heart at 400 yards".........that is downright laughable. I have spent a lot of time on rifle ranges in my lifetime, and the majority of hunters I have seen are totally satisfied with shooting a 3"-4" group at 100 yards......not exactly a heart-sized group at 400 yards. You just keep smokin' that pixie dust.
Post by: Bill W on November 03, 2019, 12:48:01 PM
Post by: buckfvr on November 03, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
Too much bs here for the op to make any good decisions unless he ignores most of the bs in this post. Hunting isnt everything.......its just part of the shooting sports. For those of us that enjoy shooting A LOT year'round, learning all their equipment as well as becoming efficient with it, 400 yards is nothing........Killing deer at 400 yards is slam dunk. Twice that far. If a shooter decides to use his Kestrel and his phone, so what......cheat sheets are faster.
We're all hunters and shooters to different degrees so this one up, my way is the right way, is a bunch of crap.
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 03, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Ya, 400 yds is not that far, if you've been shooting to a mile. But if your a 200 yd shooter you owe it to the animal to practice out to 500-600 so 400 is easy.. imo
Post by: mountainman on November 03, 2019, 02:30:55 PM
Besides basics like body position, trigger control, breathing etc... ballistics are an important factor obviously..most well placed shots from any caliber will kill most any size animal... but it's best to put as much energy down range as you can given your available options..also taking into environmental conditions such as wind, angle of the shot etc...how many people practice in full value wind. What's 15 mph do to a 95 grn bullet at 400 yds... enough to make it a bad shot.Well said
Ya, 400 yds is not that far, if you've been shooting to a mile. But if your a 200 yd shooter you owe it to the animal to practice out to 500-600 so 400 is easy.. imo
Post by: HarboritE on November 03, 2019, 04:15:21 PM
Post by: Dan-o on November 03, 2019, 04:20:27 PM
I think you'll find it a rewarding experience to stretch out your distance.
Post by: Igor on November 03, 2019, 05:00:17 PM
Dang guys !! So much good info and so many opinions. I can absolutely sift through a little bs and take away a lot from this thread. The most obvious..... practice a lot. I can do that. I think changing my shooting habits a bit will help as well. I’m glad to see the overall opinion is not to guy buy a $1000 scope, at least not yet. Again everyone, thank you for all of your insight. 300rum particularly thank you for taking the time to provide those tips
Best wishes on your shooting/hunting endeavors. It's definitely a learning process, and half the fun is just getting to a spot where you are totally comfortable with your equipment.
If you don't already reload, I would encourage you to think about it. I have been reloading rifle ammo for over 40 years, and that hobby is rewarding in itself. There are always new things to learn, and taking game with loads you have developed is quite gratifying.
Post by: Alchase on November 03, 2019, 05:13:52 PM
If you don't already reload, I would encourage you to think about it. I have been reloading rifle ammo for over 40 years, and that hobby is rewarding in itself. There are always new things to learn, and taking game with loads you have developed is quite gratifying.
:yeah:
When you start shooting 100+ rounds a week, it gets expensive fast!
Reloading is a very time intensive hobby, at least it was for me. It was also one of the first hobbies to go when I got remarried. :o
Now I get complaints about how much ammo I buy :dunno:
Post by: HawkCreek on November 12, 2019, 08:54:07 PM
Post by: jrebel on November 12, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
Like said earlier...you will need a rangefinder too.
I only dial if I am past 300 yards....Most rifles if zeroed at 200, will make easy work to 300 with a little practice. Practice, Practice, Practice.....trigger time is hands down the most important aspect of any shooting.
Between your two rifles....I would pick the 06. With that said...this looks like and excuse to buy a new one!! :chuckle: :chuckle: 300 win mag topped with a nightforce SHV 4-14 or 5-20 will do you just fine.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 13, 2019, 04:50:18 AM
Post by: opdinkslayer on November 13, 2019, 06:41:10 AM
Post by: theleo on November 13, 2019, 07:35:16 AM
Cut and paste from the article:243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets. Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.
A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.
Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.
That's about as naive a statement as I've seen on here. If a hunter is going to shoot an animal at 400 yards, he had better have adequate energy to compensate for less than perfect shot placement. If the round he is shooting has minimal energy to do the job, then he had better be very selective in the shots he takes...............and most hunters are NOT. And, the .243 falls into the category of minimal kinetic energy to kill a deer at 400 yards with perfect shot placement.
Read this:
Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm
Energy and killing power
"Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets. And it is, in fact, a reasonable indicator. But it is by no means the only factor, or even the most important factor. Energy gives us an idea of how much power there is to initiate things like bullet expansion and penetration, but does not guarantee that they will occur.
It is generally recommended that a small bore (.24-.32 caliber) rifle bullet suitable for medium size (CXP2 class) game be carrying about 800 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy when it hits. Energy is greatest at the muzzle, and diminishes as the bullet loses velocity. When the velocity reaches zero, so does the energy. But long before that the bullet has fallen below the recommended level of energy for reliably killing deer size animals. So the practical hunting range of any cartridge is ultimately limited by how much energy remains. (It is also limited by other factors, for example trajectory, but that is another subject.)
As an example, let's take a .30-30 rifle firing a Federal factory load with a 150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,390 fps. At the muzzle that bullet carries 1,900 ft. lbs. of energy. At 100 yards the energy has fallen to 1,355 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the energy is down to 945 ft. lbs. At 300 yards the energy has fallen to only 650 ft. lbs., which is below our 800 ft. lb. minimum. The velocity, by the way, is down to 1400 fps at 300 yards. One could conclude that the .30-30 is about a 200+ yard deer cartridge, based on its energy, and one would be right."
800ft/lb is the recommended amount of energy, so by that it could also be said needing anymore energy means you should practice more so you stop taking terrible shots and relying on the rifle for your ineptitude. Also, Nosler Trophy Grade 243 with 90gr Accubonds carries 923ft/lb at 400 yards. So even according to the article, the 243 is completely up to the job so long as you do some practice.
Post by: HawkCreek on November 16, 2019, 01:45:27 PM
Post by: konradcountry on November 17, 2019, 07:34:34 PM
Even if you are a consistent shot at the range you can't reliably dope the wind in the field.
This is where I see the 243 being a problem at 400 yards. A gust of wind pushes your bullet and now you are tracking all night in western wa blackberries. Not fun.
I'd rather have a bigger hole from the 06 in case I am off.
But with said I get the appeal of going light. That is where the smaller calibers shine.
Sell them both and get a 7-08.
Post by: doubletall on December 06, 2019, 09:44:53 AM
Post by: birddogdad on December 06, 2019, 09:52:16 AM
larger bullet/ energy
high bc/wind is the enemy
trigger time
great optics
practice
look for a flat shooting round
know your limits... 400yds is a chip shot when you get after it!
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 22, 2019, 07:44:32 PM
Practice has been mentioned a few times and the only thing I will add is to practice in field positions as often as posible. I can shoot prone using my pack as a rest almost as well as shooting off a bench. Where I've found the need for more practice is situations where the rolling terrain or vegetation won't allow a prone position. Shooting from a kneeling position, even with shooting sticks is something I need to practice a lot more.Pack works great with a rear rest - a roll of t.paper in a baggie works well for that and light too. If you need to get off the ground there's some examples out there for bracing buttstock with shooting sticks in addition to shooting off them - I need to practice that but if I can't get prone my range drops way below 1000 right now.