Post by: MADMAX on January 02, 2020, 05:41:49 PM
Seems to me that pregnant and possibly stressed by winter animals should be left alone until a different timeframe like over the summer
Thoughts ?
***********************************
WDFW NEWS RELEASE
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
600 Capitol Way North, Olympia, WA 98501-1091
http://wdfw.wa.gov/
January 2, 2020
Contact: Sara Hansen, Wildlife Program, (509) 892-1001 ext. 310
Staci Lehman, Public Affairs, (509) 710-4511
WDFW to use helicopters to capture mule deer
SPOKANE- Starting in early January, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) will conduct mule deer captures from helicopters in three study areas along the east slope of the Cascades in Okanogan, Chelan, and Kittitas counties.
The Department will use contracted professional crews to capture approximately 50 adult female mule deer in each area. Humane methods and experienced crews are used to make the captures as safe as possible for both deer and humans.
The deer will be fitted with GPS/satellite collars so wildlife managers can track them to evaluate movement and migration patterns and learn more about habitat use of the populations. Each animal will be collared and released at the site where they are captured. The collars are programmed to remain on the deer for four years before dropping off.
The studies in Chelan and Kittitas counties are funded by the US Fish and Wildlife Service. They are part of a major collaboration between the U.S. Department of the Interior and WDFW. Captures and collaring in Okanogan County are part of an ongoing collaboration between WDFW and the University of Washington called the Washington Predator-Prey Project that is studying interactions between mule deer and large carnivores in the Methow watershed.
"The information gained from these studies will be used to assess the movements of each population and help prioritize habitat conservation and management efforts in eastern Washington," said Sara Hansen, WDFW Deer Specialist.
Mule deer have lost winter habitat in recent years along the lower elevations of the east slope of the Cascades due to human development. This could impact mule deer populations in the long term.
Captures are scheduled to begin in Okanogan County the first week of January and continue south as work is completed in each study area.
Mule deer are broadly distributed in Washington from the crest of the Cascade Mountains east to the Idaho border, providing hunting and viewing opportunities for thousands of people each year.
WDFW is the state agency tasked with preserving, protecting and perpetuating fish, wildlife and ecosystems, while providing sustainable fishing, hunting and other outdoor recreation opportunities.
Post by: Bango skank on January 02, 2020, 05:47:36 PM
Post by: daddyelk on January 02, 2020, 05:49:51 PM
Post by: elkboy on January 02, 2020, 05:51:15 PM
Post by: Remnar on January 02, 2020, 05:51:53 PM
In the summer when they have little fawns? Doesnt sound like a good idea. In the fall during hunting seasons everynody would bitch. I think this is probably the best time to do it.:yeah:
Post by: MADMAX on January 02, 2020, 05:58:00 PM
Guess there is no optimum time
Post by: jackelope on January 02, 2020, 05:58:31 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on January 02, 2020, 07:31:22 PM
I think this is probably the best time to do it.:yeah:
Also, animals usually more concentrated, easier to find...equals less effort/expense to get target animals, so overall less harassment.
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2020, 07:41:00 PM
With the way our biologist count deer populations doing so great this shouldn't take long.Ohh ya I forgot they have to find deer that are not in the back yard.I think this is probably the best time to do it.:yeah:
Also, animals usually more concentrated, easier to find...equals less effort/expense to get target animals, so overall less harassment.
They have been contacting farmers in south eastern Washington about doing it on their land also. I am not a fan to say the least.
I'm sure they have been trying to get permission
Getting kinda hard to find em on public land these days.
Post by: jackelope on January 02, 2020, 07:47:23 PM
With the way our biologist count deer populations doing so great this shouldn't take long.Ohh ya I forgot they have to find deer that are not in the back yard.I think this is probably the best time to do it.:yeah:
Also, animals usually more concentrated, easier to find...equals less effort/expense to get target animals, so overall less harassment.They have been contacting farmers in south eastern Washington about doing it on their land also. I am not a fan to say the least.
I'm sure they have been trying to get permission
Getting kinda hard to find em on public land these days.
Really they’re all on private ground during winter. Deer have never been easy to find on public land in SE WA for that matter.
Post by: meatwhack on January 02, 2020, 07:49:23 PM
Post by: snake on January 02, 2020, 07:51:22 PM
Post by: Bango skank on January 02, 2020, 07:55:09 PM
Shouldn't have to go through all this trouble, just put it up for a vote on what should be done. The people in Seattle will know what to do.
Yup, theyll know just the trick. Obviously with our herds declining, we need to import more wolves because the wolves only kill the sick and weak, thus making the herd stronger. Its the obvious solution.
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2020, 08:28:50 PM
Then by the time they do the science/study all the while deer populations are so far in the gutter .You don't need a degree/ or study to see that .Seattle might as well decide now.Shouldn't have to go through all this trouble, just put it up for a vote on what should be done. The people in Seattle will know what to do.
Yup, theyll know just the trick. Obviously with our herds declining, we need to import more wolves because the wolves only kill the sick and weak, thus making the herd stronger. Its the obvious solution.
Post by: bigmacc on January 02, 2020, 08:30:33 PM
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2020, 08:34:21 PM
Maybe it will do some good.well see I guess.
Post by: bigmacc on January 02, 2020, 08:51:19 PM
I couldn't help but notice they are blaming habitat loss and human development for affecting the herd but nothing being said about the booming population of predators affecting the herd. All I can say is unbeleivable.....well maybe its not. At least they are paying a little attention to the deer herd so that is a good thing and we should be thankful. It would be nice to see some of these deer herds be treated as a priority like they once were.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 03, 2020, 05:27:34 AM
Post by: hunter399 on January 03, 2020, 05:38:56 AM
IMO Habitat loss is the least of their worries!! They need to concentrate on the real problem predators. After several e-mail exchanges with Fitkin this is exactly what is coming out of his mouth. If they believe that habitat loss is the problem they don't want to face the true facts. But hey keep pushing those Buck and doe special permits!!Exactly the way I feel. :yeah:
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 03, 2020, 06:17:21 AM
I think this is probably the best time to do it.:yeah:
Also, animals usually more concentrated, easier to find...equals less effort/expense to get target animals, so overall less harassment.
I'd add to that, that besides being more spread out in the summer, they are also in tougher terrain for successful captures ie steep and forested. Getting at them down in low open country makes it easier and safer for all concerned.
Post by: bigmacc on January 03, 2020, 10:24:34 AM
IMO Habitat loss is the least of their worries!! They need to concentrate on the real problem predators. After several e-mail exchanges with Fitkin this is exactly what is coming out of his mouth. If they believe that habitat loss is the problem they don't want to face the true facts. But hey keep pushing those Buck and doe special permits!!
:yeah:....Like I said earlier, they are so involved with predators they will try to put the focus on the herd declines on everything BUT predators. I mentioned in another post concerning another topic (speaking of trapping and collaring) of all the signs we were seeing in the north part of the Methow this last year, warning folks to keep their dogs on leash in certain areas because traps were in place that attract canines. I agree that habitat loss is down the list, like a lot of us have said, the deer (in the Methow at least) seem to be hovering around closer and closer to houses and civilization to escape predation.
Back to the topic, I remember being told that the best time to "round up deer" is winter because they are more concentrated and easier to choose good healthy individuals to collar. That big collared buck we killed in the 80,s was a good example of that. In the letter that was sent to us about the history of the buck was a part telling of why he was chosen. Apparently they had been observing thousands of deer in the area over many days before deciding on him. They picked him because he looked young(he was a 3 and a half year old 4 point at the time of his capture), he was big bodied and very healthy. Other deer were collared over a couple weeks also during the operation but I don't remember how many. We had guessed for years going back to the 1930,s approximately that the deer we were shooting in this particular area were likely coming out of Canada and not the Pasayten because one year an uncle had been hunting way back in up by 30 mile, close enough to the border he could have thrown a rock across it, my dad said. He watched a herd of a hundred or so work its way down a ridge through small thickets moving to the south. There were many bucks in the bunch including a huge non typical, they were on the move at about 200 yards out and he couldn't get a shot off, the deer eventually went through a huge saddle and disappeared. He went back to camp and sat down with grandma and grandpa, he told them of the huge buck that was in this herd, where he saw the herd and the direction they were headed the last time he seen them. They put together a plan and 2 days later he killed the exact buck, traveling with the same hundred or so deer approximately 10 miles to the north of the town of Winthrop. My grandpa knew of a convergence/staging area and figured they would eventually end up there,
herds would meet up and hang around for a few days before continuing south and he figured thats where they were heading, he guessed right, my uncle sat against a tree in a big draw that was about 3 miles from this "convergence" area, he sat from sun up till sun down for 2 days, shooting it about 2 hours from dark on the second day. I posted a picture of this buck years ago with my uncle standing next to it on the pole, my uncle was 6.5 and weighed about 270lbs, the buck made him look like a little kid. The collared buck we killed back in the 80,s was killed about 100 yards from where my uncle killed that big nontypical 50 years before, also traveling to his winter range.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 03, 2020, 02:21:11 PM
Warm season captures can greatly stress the animals, and their core temperatures can rise to dangerous levels. Capture myopathy, which is an often lethal response complex, is more likely during warmer temperatures. I don't think there is ever a perfect time to capture wild critters, but early winter isn't the worst!agree
Post by: RG on January 04, 2020, 09:56:41 AM
Post by: nwalpineguide on January 04, 2020, 11:05:12 AM
IMO Habitat loss is the least of their worries!! They need to concentrate on the real problem predators. After several e-mail exchanges with Fitkin this is exactly what is coming out of his mouth. If they believe that habitat loss is the problem they don't want to face the true facts. But hey keep pushing those Buck and doe special permits!!
:yeah:
Moreover, what meaningful data and subsequent conclusions will be derived from capturing 16 does in Kittitas, 16 does in Okanogan and 16 does in Chelan counties? Just curious. This, from a position of ignorance standpoint.
Post by: Shannon on January 04, 2020, 11:45:32 AM
NWalpine guide- I think the study is 50 does from each location but I could be wrong.
Post by: bearpaw on January 04, 2020, 11:53:17 AM
Think wedge cougar study done by Weilgus! :twocents:
(At the time I thought it was great they were learning about cougar, but in reality that study was scewed and used by Wielgus to have negative impacts on cougar hunting opportunists in WA! Even after Wielgus has been discredited for his improper acts, WDFW still uses his work to avoid lethal cougar management.)
Post by: Rainier10 on January 04, 2020, 11:59:21 AM
I was contacted a little over a month ago about the study. I own 1,500 acres of mule deer winter ground in Kittitas next to a few sections of DNR. They asked if they could come on my land if needed. I said yes but wanted a phone call when they would be doing the work. Just wanted a heads up so when my phone started blowing up with reports of helicopters landing on my place I would be ready.
The reason I have so much land is I am buying up as much as I can so it doesn’t get developed. I think habitat loss is a huge issue. Most of the land around is undeveloped but over hunted by the owners. One guy buys 20 acres and brings his 3 buddies to hunt. When 100 acres is owned by 5 people and that means 20 guys are hunting 100 acres the deer don’t stand a chance. That habitat in my mind is lost.
I’m buying up as much as I can afford and only taking a maximum of 3 deer and two elk off of it.
Post by: nwalpineguide on January 04, 2020, 12:28:59 PM
I’m all for the study as long as they actually listen to the science when they are done and don’t skew it one way or the other. The winter has been extremely mild so far and deer were in great shape going into winter so they should be fine. I’d like to see the results of the study-especially where they are migrating from.
NWalpine guide- I think the study is 50 does from each location but I could be wrong.
Yes, evidently it is 50 does from each area. Thanks for the clarification. That should be a statistically meaningful number of animals to derive some conclusions from. I wonder what the goals and objectives of the study are besides the one stated below.
"The Department will use contracted professional crews to capture approximately 50 adult female mule deer in each area. Humane methods and experienced crews are used to make the captures as safe as possible for both deer and humans. The deer will be fitted with GPS/satellite collars to track them to evaluate movement and migration patterns and learn more about habitat use of the populations."
Post by: ElaphusElatus on January 05, 2020, 09:15:34 AM
Post by: huntnphool on January 05, 2020, 11:04:59 AM
At least they are paying a little attention to the deer herd
The cynic that I am asks why?
We have all been deceived with the departments “slight of hand” before! The simple fact that this study is titled “Washington Preditor-Prey Project” leads me to believe the intent is actually focused on sustaining wolves, and a their major food source, but WDFW know another “wolf study” would receive additional blowback from the hunting community. :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 05, 2020, 11:31:18 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on January 05, 2020, 11:35:26 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on January 05, 2020, 02:48:18 PM
I assume netters and muggers, anyone know for sure?Pretty sure the gal I was talking to said net guns.
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 10:34:14 AM
They will be using net guns, not tranquilizer guns. Net guns from a helicopter, land, hog tie legs of deer and blindfold it, draw blood, install the collar, remove net, remove blindfold and untie legs. Supposed to take about 10 minutes from the time they get to the deer until they release it.
Radio collar sends out signals every 4-6 hours. If there is no movement and they suspect mortality of the deer they work to get there within 24 hours so they can try to determine the cause of death. Some of these deer migrate from really remote locations so they can't always get there in 24 hours, they just don't have the man power of funds.
The purpose of the study as it was explained to me is to see where the deer go every year, what land they summer and winter on and what they land they use to get to and from those areas. There is a ton of land out there and the deer don't use it all. They want to find the critical land and corridors to get there and try to protect those. Kind of like salmon, they don't want to put a barrier/dam in between the two and make life harder on the deer. You don't want to put a housing development or apple orchard in that corridor. If they can identify the corridors and then buy that land to keep it open for recreation and wildlife that is where there they should spend their limited funds protecting that habitat.
The study is funded for the next 4 years and at that point the radio collars electronically unlock and drop off of the deer. They are still transmitting a signal and can be retrieved where they fall off.
Post by: 2MANY on January 10, 2020, 11:03:35 AM
Congrats again WDFW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: stlusn30-06 on January 10, 2020, 11:21:32 AM
"Where are all the deer? WDFW doesn't know what they're doing and make no attempts to increase deer populations"
WDFW using common and nationally practiced deer management techniques
"Why would they do this?" "What a bunch of idiots. They're gonna stress the deer to death" "They're not coming on my private land to get data that could benefit the hunting population as a whole"
Cool.
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 11:23:49 AM
Stressing pregnant doe on a struggling herd sounds real intelligent.I would love to hear your more humane and fiscally responsible plan for doing the study.
Congrats again WDFW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spring time when they are more dispersed and have month old fawns?
Summertime when they are more dispersed and the fawns are a few months old?
Maybe fall when they are dispersed but the fawns are now six months old, oh and thousands of hunters are in the field trying to find a legal deer?
I sure hunters would love to see helicopters chasing deer during deer season.
Maybe they should wait for the fawns to get another month older just before the does get bred again, smack dab in the middle of elk season and chase the deer around while thousands are elk hunting?
Please tell me your solution? I’m all ears.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 10, 2020, 11:27:58 AM
Post by: 2MANY on January 10, 2020, 12:02:08 PM
Stressing pregnant doe on a struggling herd sounds real intelligent.I would love to hear your more humane and fiscally responsible plan for doing the study.
Congrats again WDFW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spring time when they are more dispersed and have month old fawns?
Summertime when they are more dispersed and the fawns are a few months old?
Maybe fall when they are dispersed but the fawns are now six months old, oh and thousands of hunters are in the field trying to find a legal deer?
I sure hunters would love to see helicopters chasing deer during deer season.
Maybe they should wait for the fawns to get another month older just before the does get bred again, smack dab in the middle of elk season and chase the deer around while thousands are elk hunting?
Please tell me your solution? I’m all ears.
Great but be prepared for the truth.
Instead of all the young bios and tech guys from out of the area trying to figure out the big mystery why don't they simply ask the older generation of outdoorsmen and ranchers that have walked the walk for generations???
Most of them know exactly what was and is happening with migration and wildlife populations.
As a matter of fact most of them will tell you the same thing.
A better question for me would be why don't wildlife managers listen?????
Why do they continually try to reinvent the wheel only to prove the obvious???
I'll tell you why.............................It's how they make a living.
Quit building on the winter range, quit spraying, control all predators, harvest timber responsibly, limit easy hunter access, and manage tag sales for the herd's benefit not the financial gain to fund another bonehead study.
Can you hear me now?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 12:14:48 PM
All great questions that I will be happy to answer.Stressing pregnant doe on a struggling herd sounds real intelligent.I would love to hear your more humane and fiscally responsible plan for doing the study.
Congrats again WDFW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spring time when they are more dispersed and have month old fawns?
Summertime when they are more dispersed and the fawns are a few months old?
Maybe fall when they are dispersed but the fawns are now six months old, oh and thousands of hunters are in the field trying to find a legal deer?
I sure hunters would love to see helicopters chasing deer during deer season.
Maybe they should wait for the fawns to get another month older just before the does get bred again, smack dab in the middle of elk season and chase the deer around while thousands are elk hunting?
Please tell me your solution? I’m all ears.
Great but be prepared for the truth.
Instead of all the young bios and tech guys from out of the area trying to figure out the big mystery why don't they simply ask the older generation of outdoorsmen and ranchers that have walked the walk for generations???
Most of them know exactly what was and is happening with migration and wildlife populations.
As a matter of fact most of them will tell you the same thing.
A better question for me would be why don't wildlife managers listen?????
Why do they continually try to reinvent the wheel only to prove the obvious???
I'll tell you why.............................It's how they make a living.
Quit building on the winter range, quit spraying, control all predators, harvest timber responsibly, limit easy hunter access, and manage tag sales for the herd's benefit not the financial gain to fund another bonehead study.
Can you hear me now?
Lets start with your last question. "Can you hear me now?"
No, actually I didn't hear your response on when is a better time to put the collars on the deer. I would imagine by your first statement that caused me to reply to you that you surely have a better plan on when this round up and collaring should happen.
I honestly want to know when you think would be a better time and why you think that is a better time.
I am not trying to be a jerk. I brought information to this thread on what was going on. You are displeased with that information and I am really curious as to what time of the year would make you comfortable with it.
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 12:45:41 PM
My guess is most think that even though most probably have never hunted mule deer in Wyoming.
Guess what? This study is modeled after what they did in Wyoming.
I get it, people are skeptical of WDFW, I am too at times, but we need to at least go into some of this stuff with an open mind and see if it works.
Here's the thing, there are thousands of acres around my cabin. I own 2,000. Guess which 2,000 I bought? Yep, the 2,000 that had deer and elk on it most of the time. 20 acres here, 40 acres there, 600 from a timber company, 500 of sagebrush. Sure I could have bought 4,000 acres, twice as much land, adjacent to it that had deer and elk on it some of the time for the same price but instead I paid a lot more a little at a time and got the land that had deer and elk on it most of the time.
I don't know what is different about the land, sagebrush and bitterbrush than on the adjacent land, it all looks the same to me, but I do know the animals like my land better.
If someone else would have bought it and turned it into timothy hay I am pretty confident the deer and elk would not have gone over to the adjacent land they would still be trying to get to the land that was now timothy hay. Kill permits and master hunter permits would be issued to haze the animals into going somewhere else that wasn't as good as what they had before it was developed.
The WDFW is actually being pretty smart and trying to establish what is critical and conserve that for the future of all of us. Rather than buying up what is cheap they are trying to decide what is holding deer now and protect that. Once it gets developed it is gone.
Maybe it's all a bunch of malarky and they are really hoping to see how long it takes for all 200 deer to get eaten by predators. It's quite the cover story they have come up with if that is the case.
I guess time will tell.
Post by: 2MANY on January 10, 2020, 12:50:19 PM
Is it getting warm in here?
IMHO I think the round up, collars, and the helicopter rental could be replaced with historic information.
Collars will just recreate an annual pattern proven to be the same year after year.
Perhaps I'm all wrong and the collars will prove the herd will begin migrating to the tops of the highest peaks and wintering on north facing slopes.
I doubt it.
The collars will most likely prove what you all ready should know.
Post by: 2MANY on January 10, 2020, 12:54:51 PM
I've hunted Wyoming's region G and H 6 or 7 times over the course of the last 20 years.
Guess what????
It's in a downward spiral too.
Seems they give out to many tags to a much more efficient group of hunters.
HHHHHHhhhmmmmm.
Anyone seen my collar???
(Rainier I'm not specifically targeting you here although I'm pretty set in my ways regarding my wildlife management views and you are providing the platform.)
The problem is man.
Less is more.
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 01:09:00 PM
Thanks for the hug.I get what you are saying. And I am not trying to single you out. I am really trying to understand the other side.
Is it getting warm in here?
IMHO I think the round up, collars, and the helicopter rental could be replaced with historic information.
Collars will just recreate an annual pattern proven to be the same year after year.
Perhaps I'm all wrong and the collars will prove the herd will begin migrating to the tops of the highest peaks and wintering on north facing slopes.
I doubt it.
The collars will most likely prove what you all ready should know.
Do you think the deer are using the same routes today that they used 50 years ago, 20 years ago, 5 years ago?
I can tell you in the 25-30 years that I have had my property I have seen the change in flow of deer.
Some of the areas they used to be are now, houses or farmland.
Fires have come through and decimated areas of cover that they used bed. Oh the under story has come back and they come through to feed from time to time but there is no cover so they have moved to areas with cover and food elsewhere. I am sure as the cover regenerates the animals will come back.
Windmills with a road system have gone in on winter range that you used to not be able to get to by vehicle but now you can cover the entire area in 30 minutes with a permission slip and vehicle, pressure in those areas has moved the deer to less pressured areas.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on January 10, 2020, 01:15:39 PM
Thanks for the hug.
Is it getting warm in here?
IMHO I think the round up, collars, and the helicopter rental could be replaced with historic information.
Collars will just recreate an annual pattern proven to be the same year after year.
Perhaps I'm all wrong and the collars will prove the herd will begin migrating to the tops of the highest peaks and wintering on north facing slopes.
I doubt it.
The collars will most likely prove what you all ready should know.
Not WA specific discoveries, but a lot more than migration patterns are learned using GPS info. And I also realize not all of these are collared deer findings.
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 01:30:15 PM
Now if someone buys one of those pieces that has that well used corridor through it and starts hunting it, those deer are going to figure it out fast and move elsewhere. If someone builds a house on it and has dogs fenced in those deer are going to move elsewhere.
50 years ago those corridors were everywhere. There are getting to be less and less of them for sure and I think it is important to figure out where they still exist and how to preserve them.
Post by: bearpaw on January 10, 2020, 01:35:12 PM
I think the biggest problem is the low level of trust in WDFW. Normally I am supportive of studies but it doesn't seem to do much good in this state. They did a deer study in GMU 105 several years ago, they determined many of the larger mule deer bucks were migrating in from B.C. that's interesting but really changed nothing, predator numbers continue to rise and deer numbers continue to drop.
They also did a cougar study in GMU 105 (by Wielgus), WDFW is still using his crazy conclusions to keep cougar hunting more restricted. meanwhile deer and moose numbers continue to decline.
There was a whitetail study in a small area of GMU 105, they determined whitetail numbers helped support a larger predator population, if whitetail numbers were lowered maybe predator numbers would decline. Ungulates continue to decline and predators are still not properly managed, essentially the predator problem has only worsened!
In Idaho they did studies and determined cougar were eating more elk than wolves and that bear preyed on calves. Idaho initiated 2 bear areas, 2 cougar areas, plus you can trap 5 wolves and hunt 5 wolves. All Idahoans are not in love with IDFG but the difference between IDFG and WDFW is like night and day. In one state predators are being managed heavily and ungulates are doing pretty well, in the other state predators have little management and ungulates are disappearing due to a full scale predator pit!
I heard an interesting comment the other day, it went like this: WDFW initiates a study to satisfy the wildlife commission, by the time the study is complete there are new commissioners and a new director and it's forgotten why the study was even implemented. Wildlife management changes just keep getting kicked down the road and there really is no accountability for WDFW's failure to maximize hunting and fishing opportunities.
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2020, 01:58:04 PM
I agree and I am as skeptical as the next guy but always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt out the gates.
The study itself I am not so skeptical of, the results and what they do with them I am. I agree they do these studies for the commission and depending on the agenda you can present it however you want.
Seahawks thread is a great example, Seahawks are 0-3 in GB playoff games. Does that mean they are going to be 0-4 after this weekend or does that mean they are due for a win and they will 1-3 alltime?
I think we really need to do an unbiased study on predators in this state but that is a topic for a different thread I suppose. To do those studies you need money and there is always a shortage of that.
Back on this topic and the funding I just mentioned, I was told that the funding for this project came from the federal government, pennies from heaven that they weren't expecting but had to use in a certain way and this project fell within those parameters.
Post by: Special T on January 10, 2020, 03:14:58 PM
Since the department has to managed based on science, what do we do when some established science is from a discredited source like Weilgus? What science do we have to refute it? There are studies from other states, there is historical records, but none of these things can refute bad science. We are going to need to fund & push for good projects.
It means that sportsmen are going to have to become more involved. Volunteer for an org you belong to. Become the resident expert on an issue and read everything! I think many of us are distracted by the large volume and variety of information to keep on top of to steer the department back in the right direction.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: nwalpineguide on January 10, 2020, 05:02:10 PM
In my humble opinion, and from a pathetically ignorant understanding of the ecology and management of mule deer, I suspect there is very good reasons to conduct mule deer studies as frequently as time, personnel and resources allows. This, because the biology of mule deer and their behaviors are relatively well known as compared to other species of wildlife in Washington as well elsewhere.
Adding more knowledge to what’s already known about them simply refines and improves WDFW’s ability to understand and manage mule deer herds as conditions change. Make no mistake, conditions are changing here in Washington with an ever increasing population of humans as well increasing numbers of apex predators, not to mention increasing numbers of and intensification of wild land fires. I’ll just pause there.
Mule deer have relatively large home ranges; and as is the case in both Okanogan and Chelan counties, a large proportion of these deer herds are seasonally migratory. This requires responsible WDFW resource managers to consider ENTIRE landscapes rather than isolated patches or mosaics of habitat when making informed decisions about the short and long term management of mule deer herds.
Basically, mule deer can be considered an indicator or keystone species which may provide insight to the management of other species. Such as wolves, cougar and grizzly bears. Oh my!
Seasonal Movements
As mentioned already, deer often exhibit migratory behaviors, moving to high elevation sub alpine and alpine habitats and mountain ranges during late spring and early summer to take advantage of seasonally abundant plant foods and retreating to lower elevation ranges during winter. Migratory mule deer can and do concentrate on traditional winter ranges in large numbers. Moreover they are followed by predators such as coyotes, cougars and wolves to these type locations.
Predation
Predation should never be considered a limiting factor of mule deer without the simultaneous assessment of habitat conditions. Especially in winter when deer are concentrated on winter ranges. Some of which are marginal at best. Good foraging conditions enable deer to spend less time feeding (thus limiting exposure to predators). It is absurd to consider foraging deer and predation upon them as mutually exclusive. They are not.
In future, when grizzly bears, wolves, cougars, coyote and bobcat share the same summer landscape with mule deer the conclusions these studies reveal from the facts might prove… shall we say, rather interesting!
Post by: jackelope on January 10, 2020, 06:10:59 PM
Also, I just saw a bunch of photos on social media of several biologists from different states and tribes, a helicopter and some bighorn sheep in Hell’s Canyon doing very similar things to ensure bighorn sheep survival. Are they all wrong too ?
Post by: jackelope on January 10, 2020, 06:13:41 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200111/fa5f884a88ceb25810ec1d1134724b18.jpg)
Post by: 2MANY on January 11, 2020, 10:03:48 AM
Then the deer will do what deer do and man will continue to make his greed driven decisions.
The end.
Post by: Jingles on January 23, 2020, 04:19:03 PM
Post by: 2MANY on January 23, 2020, 04:27:58 PM
Current WDFW policy needs to go right in that recycle tote.