Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: sisu on April 06, 2009, 03:33:19 PM

Title: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: sisu on April 06, 2009, 03:33:19 PM: Just curious who uses what. I thought of posting this on the polls, but put it here. If you want a poll I'll move it, just send me a PM and it'll get done.
If more powders need to be added PM me.
Do we need to add a category for how fine the powder is ground?
Scott
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 06, 2009, 03:48:29 PM: I think you should poll the different types/brands and include FF and FFF as a couple of the options. I personally have been using 777 FFF in my .54 inline, but possibly making a change this next season. Lots of shooting to do - especially if they carry forward the copper jacketed bullets this year.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: rasbo on April 06, 2009, 04:02:57 PM: I use hodgdon pyrodex rs-ffg in my blackdiamond..should I use something else
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 06, 2009, 04:07:33 PM: I am just trying to find the most accurate and my particular gun doesn't like to shoot anything accurately. It either means that I need a new gun or that I haven't tried enough powder / bullet combinations.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: rasbo on April 06, 2009, 04:09:16 PM: Quote from: whacker1 on April 06, 2009, 04:07:33 PM
I am just trying to find the most accurate and my particular gun doesn't like to shoot anything accurately. It either means that I need a new gun or that I haven't tried enough powder / bullet combinations.
how much powder do you use
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 06, 2009, 04:11:49 PM: 110 grains of 777 of FFF with a 300 grain sabotted dead center from Cabelas. Don't like the way it performs. I am actually mounting a scope to this gun in order to determine what shoots best this year.
Got an extra scope, so what the hell.
Sight in with scope.
Pull scope off and should be able to shoot just as well with open or peep sights - or at least close depending on range.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: rasbo on April 06, 2009, 04:19:07 PM: Quote from: whacker1 on April 06, 2009, 04:11:49 PM
110 grains of 777 of FFF with a 300 grain sabotted dead center from Cabelas. Don't like the way it performs. I am actually mounting a scope to this gun in order to determine what shoots best this year.
Got an extra scope, so what the hell.
Sight in with scope.
Pull scope off and should be able to shoot just as well with open or peep sights - or at least close depending on range.
theres a blackpowder 101 on the muzzy section,im gonna look at that.my gun shoots well with 110 grains powerbelt 295,my friend has a hawkin he can only use 70 grains it all confuses me.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 06, 2009, 04:31:02 PM: I actually came down in powder last year from 120 to 110, but didn't gain the accuracy I wanted. I have tried Pyrodex pellets, 777. I will be trying 777 in FF instead of the FFF. I am hoping that the copper jacketed bullets will stabilize the bullet. my understanding is that the barrel is two inches two short for the rate of twist for many bullets. I speculate a lot on this particular gun. But I think the scope will give me the benchmark I am really looking for.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: MagKarl on April 07, 2009, 09:14:37 AM: I use Goex ff. I shoot a caplock Lyman Great Plains rifle in .54. I shoot patched round balls for plinking and hunting, powder charges between 50 and 100 grains.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 07, 2009, 09:24:32 AM: Sisu - you might add American Pioneer Powder (Jim Shockey's endorsed powder) & Goex and possibly make distinction between Pyrodex pellets and loose powder. Not sure how much info you are looking for.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: Intruder on April 07, 2009, 09:26:03 AM: Loose 777...
I've tried Pyrodex but didn't care for it.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: sisu on April 07, 2009, 09:35:46 AM: Quote from: whacker1 on April 07, 2009, 09:24:32 AM
Sisu - you might add American Pioneer Powder (Jim Shockey's endorsed powder) & Goex and possibly make distinction between Pyrodex pellets and loose powder. Not sure how much info you are looking for.
I'm new at this so I'm looking for AS MUCH information as possible. The more a cheechako can learn the better in my opinion. Over kill is not bad, you just need to sift through it and find out what works for you, and that is what I'm trying to do here. There seem to be a lot of new people coming into this sport and there are a lost of sourdoughs already here that can help. And it seems you guys have already do so just by responding to the poll.
Thanks,
Sisu
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 07, 2009, 09:51:42 AM: Sisu- my traditional muzzleloader that I used for the first year worked famously - extremely accurate with - Black Powder FF. But it was a long barrelled gun shooting heavy maxi-balls. The gun weighed over 12 lbs with open sights.

When I went to the inline - I figured out that it shoots much differently and did not have anywhere near the same result. My biggest problem is finding enough time to shoot and try different combinations of powder & bullets. Which is why i decided to sight in this year with a scope to remove variables and improve my confidence in the accuracy of each shot and or combination of powder & bullet. Once I have made the selection I will then revert back to open or peep sights in attempt to recreate the desired result. As I mentioned earlier, if the game regs allow for copper jacketed bullets this year, that will add a great deal more bullet choices to choose from than what I currently have.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: CP on April 07, 2009, 09:58:22 AM: Black powder is for traditional patched ball shooters because that’s the way it should be, 777 for inline shooting because it is the best and cleanest option.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: stumprat on April 07, 2009, 10:04:32 AM: I'm using 90 grains 777 ffg, and 310 grain Knight saboted bullets. I'm getting great accuracy. But with the new changes will start working up a load for jacketed bullets. But who knows may end up back with what I'm shooting now. Just my opinion, but I have always had better accuracy with 90 grains of loose powder in all my rifles. 777 is as close to blackpowder as I have found, but I have only tried 3 brands. Cleanup with 777 is a breeze all I use now is Traditions EZ clean solvent spray (all natural and smells like oranges). 2 patches and she shines.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: Curly on April 07, 2009, 10:05:32 AM: My vote is for loose 777
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: sisu on April 07, 2009, 11:27:39 AM: Quote from: CP on April 07, 2009, 09:58:22 AM
Black powder is for traditional patched ball shooters because that’s the way it should be, 777 for inline shooting because it is the best and cleanest option.
This may have solved my problem...thanks.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: robodad on April 07, 2009, 11:42:18 AM: Best advice I can give is to stick with one powder and one charge of 100gr and change the bullet until you get good results and at least eliminate one variable at a time, There are just too many combinations of powder types and volumes and bullet shapes and sizes that one could go on and on for several days and get completely frustrated and give up.

By sticking with a powder and charge you can determine what bullet your gun likes best then work on tweeking the charge to get great results !!!

Poineer powder has been known to absorb moisture much more quiclky then other substitutes from what I have read. I don't think I will try it on the west side !!!

I'd still like to hear what works best for you though !!!
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: colockumelk on April 07, 2009, 12:53:41 PM: whacker 110 grains might be too much powder. My first inline I had to back all the way down to 90 grains because anything above that my bullets were tumbling and my accuracy sucked. What type of ML do you have?

I have a .50cal T/C Black Diamond and I shoot 100grains of Pyrodex Pellets and shoot a .44cal Precision Q/T ballistic tip. I have 1-2 inch groups at 100yds and 4-5 inch groups at 150yds.

My dad has a .50cal Knight Bighorn and shoots 100grains of Pyrodex Pellets and shoots a 295 grain PowerBelt and also has 1-2 inch groups at 100yds.

So again try backing down ten grains and that might help out a bit. The bigger bullets from what I've read and seen tend to tumble at the higher velocities and with the bigger powder charges. The 150 grain powder charges were designed to shoot 180-250grain long jacketed bullets. Not 300grains of fat lead. I hope this helps out.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 07, 2009, 12:58:26 PM: Remington Model 700 ML in .54. I had tried backing down to 90 grains and the situation didn't improve. Thanks for the hlep, but I think this will be a summer full of trial and error.

Neil
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: colockumelk on April 07, 2009, 01:09:20 PM: Well in that case how old is your ML. Did you buy it from someone else that might not have taken care of it? The reason I ask is that if it's old or sat uncleaned for too long the rifling can become either worn down if it's old (in this case you can't really do much about it) or what happened to my first inline is I left it uncleaned for way too long. When this happens rust and other junk can permanently seal up your rifling basically giving you a smooth bore. If this might be the case then let it sit in some anti-rust chemicals for awhile punch the barrell using a stiff wire brush a bunch and then let it sit in some of that anti-blackpowder stuff for awhile and then punch it again with the wire brush and then run boiling water down your barrell and punch it agian with the wire brush alot. Like use a whole pot.

You'll know it's useless if after doing all this and youve gone through a whole pot of water and each time there's still a bunch of crud coming out each time (like me I went through two or three pots) and you shoot it and it's still not accurate then I'd sell that sucker to some other person. That's about all I can think of.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 07, 2009, 01:18:42 PM: I'll start with the scope and bench rest and see what the accuracy and rule me out as the shooter. Then I will try the same bullets with some different powder variations. Then play with bullet options.

I bought it from a respectable small gun shop used. The guy they bought it from was one of their regular customers, and had used it for a few seasons, and switched when the Remington came out with the 26 inch barrel version of the .50 cal.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: colockumelk on April 07, 2009, 01:21:18 PM: I like that idea of using a scope and a rest. That is a really good idea. As for the prior owner etc I wasn't trying to imply negligence on anyone I was just giving out advice on what I've done wrong and why my first inline had horrible groups. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: whacker1 on April 07, 2009, 01:30:13 PM: I understand on the used muzzleloader comments.
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: muzzleman on April 08, 2009, 06:13:13 AM: I use 777 loose grain. I made the switch from pyrodex, and my BD never skipped a beat. I love how it cleans up. :twocents:
Title: Re: Black powder VS black powder substitute?
Post by: rasbo on April 08, 2009, 06:25:04 AM: Quote from: muzzleman on April 08, 2009, 06:13:13 AM
I use 777 loose grain. I made the switch from pyrodex, and my BD never skipped a beat. I love how it cleans up. :twocents:
Im going to make the switch to 777 also loose for my bd