Post by: 7mmfan on February 14, 2020, 02:36:24 PM
There appear to be methods of determining this without gross amounts of shooting and testing. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Post by: Alan K on February 14, 2020, 03:22:51 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on February 14, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 14, 2020, 03:29:52 PM
Good review of shooting a ladder, and Optimum barrel time.
https://www.6mmbr.com/Quickload.html (https://www.6mmbr.com/Quickload.html)
Quickload tips
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 14, 2020, 03:35:29 PM
Quickload is a program that you need to purchase correct?
Yes, but it won't tell you much until you accurately measure your fired case volume ( weight the water it holds) and accurately measure your average velocity from a couple fired rounds. Then with this data and measurements of your cartridge and bullet you can start getting educated what-ifs as you change powder. To develop an accurate load with it you must subscribe to the optimum barrel time theory that suggests your node is reached at a specific time the bullet is in the barrel based on barrel length. Quickload gives you that time - adjust your load so the two times meet and viola ! Instant accuracy. If only it worked so easy - but sometimes it does. Usually if you are new to it you get a good load dialed in after a few hundred rounds because you get to be a better shooter by then - was it you or the load?
Post by: 7mmfan on February 14, 2020, 03:45:43 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 04:03:18 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on February 14, 2020, 05:24:50 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 14, 2020, 05:36:28 PM
As someone who has been guilty of this in the past, do not jump around! Its impossible to collect data when you aren't making calculated changes and adjustments :twocents:
Post by: buckfvr on February 14, 2020, 05:36:42 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on February 14, 2020, 05:45:12 PM
It's really hard to give advice on hand loading because without seeing your process it's really hard to say one way or the other. One thing I will say is it's really hard to get sub moa accuracy out of a 1.5 minute rifle. Point being, all guns aren't accurate. Rifles are a dime a dozen. If it isn't up to standards sell it and get a different one. If you have shot that much and it's still not giving you positive feedback with changes then off that sucker.
As someone who has been guilty of this in the past, do not jump around! Its impossible to collect data when you aren't making calculated changes and adjustments :twocents:
I'm not quite ready to give up on it yet, but I am trying to create a system so I stop jumping. I have other members involved holding me accountable.
It is a Remington Model 700 Mountain Rifle, 7mm-08. Not a cheap rifle.
Post by: buckfvr on February 14, 2020, 05:50:47 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 05:51:24 PM
This group was 10 rounds over a chrono, all of them different powder charges ranging from 2750 to 2950 FPS. Maybe if I shot much further I would notice shots grouping together but I don’t have a range where I can set paper past 200 yards. Also this rifle shoots everything (except nosler rdf) very well so I basically just worked for velocity.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 05:55:03 PM
Does anyone know if there is any factory 7-08 ammo that just shoots well in lots of rifles? It might pay to try something like that to see what the gun is capable of?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 14, 2020, 06:04:13 PM
I hear of people shooting a ladder and watching for velocity flat spots or different powder charges that group together well. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. I will shoot a ladder over a chrono to find pressure and look for a good velocity range. Once I know that I’ll work with seating depth for accuracy.spot on. I run up to pressure, look for a flat spot then tune seating depth. If you have a full grain spot where you are only 15-20fps in difference your load is gonna be a bit more forgiving. If your rifles accuracy isn't getting better or reacting to changes with different adjustments it very well could be a rifle issue. Especially since it's a rem 700.
This group was 10 rounds over a chrono, all of them different powder charges ranging from 2750 to 2950 FPS. Maybe if I shot much further I would notice shots grouping together but I don’t have a range where I can set paper past 200 yards. Also this rifle shoots everything (except nosler rdf) very well so I basically just worked for velocity.
This was a 15 shot ladder test with a 300 win and n570. Not a ton of data so I started low. Not much to gain there besides chrono data which I feel is most important. One thing it does tell me is seating depth should be left alone.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 14, 2020, 06:05:38 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on February 14, 2020, 07:58:30 PM
Just trying to get to this with the other one. I'll keep at it.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 14, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 08:35:22 PM
I don’t shoot under 300 yards. A good load at 100 just doesn’t tell me much other than the rifle has potential. Positive compensation (good) looks worse at 100 yards and the long heavies may not be stabilized.If the bullets aren’t stabile at 100 yards they won’t be stabile any further.
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 08:39:31 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 08:42:45 PM
Post by: h20hunter on February 14, 2020, 08:43:02 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 14, 2020, 08:46:02 PM
I’ve a 6.5, shoots better at 200 than 100....
Sound to me like that 6.5 has a shooter that is better at 200 :tup:
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:02:54 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 09:04:16 PM
Impossible huh, better at 200 than 100??? Copy thatThere’s this little thing called physics...
Can you explain how your gun shoots better at 200 than 100 all the time?
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:07:25 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 09:09:49 PM
Numerous guys, and smiths have experienced the same thing. I won’t argue with you, as it appears with the whitetail conversation, is what you wanna do...Just a simple question... no arguing.
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:16:43 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 09:26:35 PM
I can say that sometimes I shoot better groups on a lower magnification setting than I do at higher magnification. It’s not that the gun shoots better at lower magnification, but more likely that I just aim better at lower magnification.
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:35:20 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 14, 2020, 09:37:40 PM
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:40:48 PM
I can shoot 1” groups at 100 yards and 1.5” at 300. Few people see smaller actual groups at distance but its common to see smaller moa at 300 vs 100 with long bullets that do take a bit to stabilize. You wont see this with standard bullets just the 300 grainers or maybe long 230’s.
Oh you've done it now!!! Haven't you heard of physics???????? Yes, you are correct, thank you
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 14, 2020, 09:46:19 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 09:48:41 PM
I can shoot 1” groups at 100 yards and 1.5” at 300. Few people see smaller actual groups at distance but its common to see smaller moa at 300 vs 100 with long bullets that do take a bit to stabilize. You wont see this with standard bullets just the 300 grainers or maybe long 230’s.The “I can shoot” is the important part there. It is not that the gun is more accurate at longer distance it is that you, the shooter are doing something different. Maybe you concentrate better at longer distance? Or parallax is less? Something like that. If you could set up a target at 100 and shoot through that target to one at 300 I can assure you that the group printed on the 300 yard paper will not be a smaller angular dispersion than that of the 100 yard target. There is just no way that a bullet knows where it needs to “settle” in to. Once that bullet leaves the muzzle it is set in that direction until an outside force affects it.
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:59:33 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 14, 2020, 10:01:56 PM
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 10:04:59 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2020, 10:08:48 PM
I just don’t buy that a further target can consistently have a smaller angular group for the same shots fired.
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 10:10:33 PM
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 10:11:46 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 15, 2020, 06:28:42 AM
200 fps at that??? Good god!!! What powder???It was a ladder working up from fireforming to full load in an Ackley improved chambering. Using h4895 the last time I chronod my finished load I had an es of 12 over w
10 rounds
Post by: jasnt on February 15, 2020, 08:18:55 AM
When I start load development I start with seating depth and a low charge. Load in increments from mag length or .015” off in .030” steps
Choose the best one and shoot over the chrono and find the velocity flat spots. Fine tune seating depth in .005” increments if I’m not happy already.
Maybe I’ve been lucky but I’ve never not found a 1/2 moa load in any rifle I’ve loaded for except for the rifles that I had burned out the barrel.
Some folks have warned me going too fast twist can blow up bullets but I have yet to see it my self. Recently I worked up a load in my 7 twist 243 and 62gr Berger target bullets at 3960. They shoot great even at 735 yards. Also played with a few 58gr vmax at over 4K and they hit the 400 no problem.
Jme
Post by: wooltie on June 05, 2020, 01:22:42 PM
I swapped the barrel for a benchmark.
Kept everything the same - rifle stock, bullets, powder, shooting rests -- and the gun shoots moa or better now.
FYI I use Jason's method to find a load. Works great.
Post by: TheArmoredShop on October 13, 2020, 07:45:10 AM
As I continue my quest to develop a load for my 7mm-08 that even vaguely resembles the accuracy I get in my 7 mag, I've come across this term several times. Many use it like a common term we should all just know. In my research, I've developed a rudimentary understanding of it, the idea of timing the exit of your bullet with harmonics that reach the end of your barrel at, or at nearly, the same time allowing the least amount of deviation of the bullet leaving the barrel, allowing for the best accuracy.
There appear to be methods of determining this without gross amounts of shooting and testing. Does anyone have any experience with this?
I do. It’s a lot of fun too.
I set a 6’x4’ target up at 800 yards. I use an OAL gauge to measure where my throat in my gun is at, and then start with a .010” jump.
I load 3 bullets, starting 10% off max book load. Going up 1% each three shots.
After each three I write down the number of the group next to it. I do this until I reach 100% of book max or I’ll keep going if I’m showing no distress in casing or primers. I went to 105% in my 300 winmag with h1000. Was like 84 grains of powder with 212 eld-x. Compressed for sure and a shoulder whopper. Was getting almost 3300FPS off the Labradar.
Post by: TheArmoredShop on October 13, 2020, 07:50:19 AM
The only thing you will mess with from there is jam or jump. I got as far as .005” jam and down to .025” jump. (This is referring to the distance of the ogive to the lands).
You will shoot groups of 3 every .003” inch each way. This is at 100 yards.
I’d still use chrono (in my case a labradar) to check deviation and spread.
I now have a load developed for my 300 WM with 212 ELDX that delivers 1000ftlbs of energy well over 1000 yards. With my Nightforce, I check my dope chart on my gun, turn the turret and send one flying knowing I’m sub MOA at ANY distance if wind is read right.
Post by: buckfvr on October 13, 2020, 08:41:26 AM
Post by: Stein on October 13, 2020, 09:03:25 AM
I shoot 5 shots from low powder to high powder and find a charge with low ES, hopefully one with decent ES on either side.
From there, start with the max length I can fit in my mag and shoot groups at -3, -6, -9... thousandths shorter until I get a group I'm happy with, again hopefully the groups on either side are decent as well.
I went through cases and primers but won't do that again, Lapua and Fed match or BR2s and call it good. I also tried crimp, no crimp and found crimping sucks for consistency which was surprising. I also tried different sizing dies and settled with neck sizing, no button.
I do all my development at 100 yards, I'm not a subscriber of the theory where 100 yards somehow is different than other distances. Final trip is just to verify actual drop at long distances to make sure my chrono velocity is accurate and I 100% have my dope at distances I would shoot an animal at. 100 yards is easy to shoot, easy to see through the spotting scope and take a picture and use software to calculate groups without having to retrieve the target.
I spent hundreds of rounds dinking around until I got serious and did some research, thought about it and ended up pretty much doing what people that know what they are doing do.
Post by: 7mmfan on October 13, 2020, 09:20:00 AM
What ended up being my main problem was an extremely finicky rifle that did not like most powder/bullet combos. I literally shot 1000 rounds of ammo in very strategic increments and calculated changes in components. I finally changed to a new bullet and instantly had accuracy. Like sub MOA accuracy in a gun that I'd never gotten better than 2" groups at 100 yards. It rattled me. I feel that my bouncing around and seeking of advice when I was doing essentially the right process was just because I couldn't get accuracy from a rifle that didn't like what I was putting through it. When I found what it liked, it was easy.
Post by: TheArmoredShop on October 13, 2020, 11:03:55 AM
Personally I never cared what I threw down range, but now I’ll never shoot at any animal with factory ammo. My ammunition is now a constant vs a variable. Any variable I can remove from the situation is a win.
To do this properly, I buy everything in bulk, all in the same lot. Usually 40 lbs of H1000 same lot, same lot 5,000 primers, Same 5k in 212 ELD-X.
All my Peterson brass is ran through a concentricity gauge, neck trimmed for conformity, trimmed to SAAMI, weighed and sorted, and then annealed. Case prepping usually takes 2-3, 8 hour days before I even get ready to reload per 100 cases.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 13, 2020, 11:32:02 AM
Also if load development at 100 you can’t see positive compensation that helps at 1000. Imo Load develop at what you shoot - 600-1000 is good for me.
Post by: TheArmoredShop on October 13, 2020, 01:05:44 PM
If you look at my picture above of my 800 yard ladder, you can see #8 was horrible and it was only 1.3 grains of powder higher than 7, and lower than #9. I even loaded three more to see and it was all over, so for whatever reason, my rifle HATED it