Post by: Jingles on April 02, 2020, 05:27:36 AM
Maybe I'm expecting to much from a gas gun but shouldn't an AR at least be able to produce .5 to .75 groups @ 100 yds. Using a factory built rifle have tried loads using various powders and bullet weights.. About ready to say screw it and rig it for spray and pray only
Post by: 300rum on April 02, 2020, 05:36:14 AM
Post by: hunter399 on April 02, 2020, 05:44:12 AM
How many rounds through your barrel.
Twist rate.
More info on ammo you have tried ,and I'm sure you'll get more advise.
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 02, 2020, 06:05:31 AM
Some of those barrels are pretty cheap. With a decent barrel this should be doable. If you can't find a load that this likes, get an 18" $200 barrel and you should be good to go.
:twocents:
Post by: Jingles on April 02, 2020, 06:41:17 AM
Tell us what kind of groups your getting exactly.
How many rounds through your barrel.
Twist rate.
More info on ammo you have tried ,and I'm sure you'll get more advise.
Factory rifle is a Stag Retro 15L, yea a lefty
1:8 twist probably 300 rounds downrange, tried 55 gr SBT, FMJBT to 65 gr SBT and FMJBT loaded with everything from 1.5 gr below to recommended max in .5 gr increments for each, using sight vice and best group so far has been 1.5 inches @ 100yds with 62 gr FMJBT(SS109's) 26.5 gr H335 CCI400 have also tried IMR 4835, RE7, IMR 4064 loaded max. using a vortex Diamondback HD 6.5 - 20 X44
was using the 4 corners in the picture for targets
Post by: zwickeyman on April 02, 2020, 07:00:35 AM
Get a better barrel
Im building an AR pistol right now. 3 places not to skimp. Barrel, BCG an lower kit
Post by: Hilltop123 on April 02, 2020, 07:06:38 AM
Post by: hunter399 on April 02, 2020, 07:07:32 AM
Post by: hunter399 on April 02, 2020, 07:18:17 AM
But if I'm not getting good loads ,I'll move my powder charge just to see if there is room to improve .I would say start moving your powder charge down if no improvement ,then maybe barrel issue.
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on April 02, 2020, 07:26:29 AM
Post by: Jingles on April 02, 2020, 08:32:44 AM
Post by: h20hunter on April 02, 2020, 08:38:09 AM
Post by: konradcountry on April 02, 2020, 08:51:12 AM
Buy a couple boxes of 69gr Federal GMM and see what it does.
I'm gonna second this. Run a match 68 or 69.
Should be able to get an inch with that rifle.
Post by: Cougartail on April 02, 2020, 09:31:54 AM
Hopefully an Owner out there that is more versed in AR accuracy than myself. Been a long time since I had to worry about hitting the target with an AR style rifle and then it was an honest to god M16 where targets were marked by person stuck in the butts and targets were raised and lowered.
Maybe I'm expecting to much from a gas gun but shouldn't an AR at least be able to produce .5 to .75 groups @ 100 yds. Using a factory built rifle have tried loads using various powders and bullet weights.. About ready to say screw it and rig it for spray and pray only
I have 3 ARs. Two are for self defense and one for hunting As long as I get "minute of dirtbag" with the two self defense rifles I'm fine. For hunting I bought a Rock River ATH. Guaranteed .75 inch groups but will shoot 3/8 inch groups. My cheaper ARs won't do that regardless of ammo.
Post by: konradcountry on April 02, 2020, 01:20:55 PM
If you have a bad barrel that kind of sucks because they aren't known for their customer service.
Nothing wrong with a minute of zombie rifle.
If you really want to get into accuracy you probably want a free floated barrel anyways.
Post by: Yondering on April 02, 2020, 02:08:58 PM
I think it is reasonable to expect 1 MOA from an off the shelf Stag. They aren't a low end brand.
If you have a bad barrel that kind of sucks because they aren't known for their customer service.
Nothing wrong with a minute of zombie rifle.
If you really want to get into accuracy you probably want a free floated barrel anyways.
OP - I agree with Konrad that 1 moa is a reasonable expectation for most ARs with good ammo. However, "At least 0.5 to .75 moa" is too much to expect for that Stag, especially with the ammo/bullet choices listed. Don't expect a mid-low end AR to automatically shoot like a good target rifle.
For starters, don't waste your time with any FMJ bullet for accuracy. Get some good ammo, as mentioned a couple times above, or load yourself some good precision ammo with match bullets. The 69gr SMK was mentioned above, and the 65gr SGK can deliver similar accuracy with the right loads. The Hornady 75gr BTHP and the 77gr SMK are also good options. If you prefer light varmint bullets, the 50gr "Varmint Nightmare" bullets from Midsouth shoot very well when loaded with a max charge of XTerminator per the Western Powders 5.56 data (not the 223 data).
Learning how to load good precision ammo is a big part of this - using brass sized to fit your rifle's chamber, paying attention to (and minimizing) runout in cases and seated bullets, testing for optimum seating depth, powder charge, primers, etc all matter.
You're also going to want a good optic, and a decent trigger helps a lot as well. You're not going to shoot consistent 1 moa groups with a red dot sight for example, unless you're already a really good shot.
Shooting position and technique matters a lot too. It's not a hunting rifle, and technique is a little different, but you still have to get the basics down. Trigger control is going to be a big part of that, especially if you're trying to work with the stock trigger.
With all of that considered, I do think the accuracy goal described in the OP is too much to expect, at least until you've addressed the things I mentioned above.
Post by: Jingles on April 02, 2020, 03:54:07 PM
Post by: Alchase on April 02, 2020, 06:00:16 PM
A decent bullet with consistent load, will get you to 1 MOA or better. Just to state the obvious, this would be shooting from a bench, and providing the shooter is capable.
I am shocked how many are actually not capable. :chuckle:
Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.
Think of it this way, most off the shelf hunting rifles would not guarantee 1 MOA or better straight from the factory, until recently. With the exception of a few higher end rifles.
Now a lot of them do, and everyone has a decent trigger and consistent barrel.
The cool part, if your wish is to build a 1 MOA or better AR, you can get there fairly cheaply. Just throw the right parts at it.
Or you could buy one, but is won't be as cheap as building what you have.
:tup:
Post by: konradcountry on April 02, 2020, 06:34:37 PM
But is that still true? From what I have seen all rifle barrels have improved in the last few years due to improved manufacturing techniques.
I would bet that a DPMS Oracle off the shelf shoots around 1 MOA with the right ammo and they are as cheap as you can get.
The problem though is that if shoots 2 or 3 MOA you have to deal with it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPsLTuDk1A
Post by: Alchase on April 02, 2020, 06:58:58 PM
Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.
But is that still true? From what I have seen all rifle barrels have improved in the last few years due to improved manufacturing techniques.
I would bet that a DPMS Oracle off the shelf shoots around 1 MOA with the right ammo and they are as cheap as you can get.
The problem though is that if shoots 2 or 3 MOA you have to deal with it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPsLTuDk1A
I said standard issue Colts,
Per contract the M4 Accuracy standard is 4 MOA.
Though as you have said, they have improved. I still have yet to see a bone stock M4 hit better that 2 MOA, and those close were few and far between.
Post by: Dan-o on April 02, 2020, 07:01:52 PM
Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.
But is that still true? From what I have seen all rifle barrels have improved in the last few years due to improved manufacturing techniques.
I would bet that a DPMS Oracle off the shelf shoots around 1 MOA with the right ammo and they are as cheap as you can get.
The problem though is that if shoots 2 or 3 MOA you have to deal with it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPsLTuDk1A
I said standard issue Colts,
Per contract the M4 Accuracy standard is 4 MOA.
Though as you have said, they have improved. I still have yet to see a bone stock M4 hit better that 2 MOA, and those close were few and far between.
4 MOA?!?!?
:yike: :yike: :yike: :yike: :yike: :yike:
Post by: konradcountry on April 02, 2020, 07:11:44 PM
I said standard issue Colts,
Per contract the M4 Accuracy standard is 4 MOA.
Though as you have said, they have improved. I still have yet to see a bone stock M4 hit better that 2 MOA, and those close were few and far between.
Wow had no idea the gov had such low standards.
I suppose they are shooting man sized targets with irons but am still shocked.
Post by: Blacklab on April 02, 2020, 07:58:27 PM
Post by: NWShooter on April 02, 2020, 10:51:47 PM
https://ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/38007/55630
Post by: konradcountry on April 03, 2020, 12:27:10 AM
Agree and I think you are paying to not gamble with premium barrels. You can get a Ballistic Advantage or Faxon on sale for around 130 if you look hard enough so I'd rather not gamble with the $75 barrel.
But I have only seen this for 223. With Blackout I have only seen good results from premium barrels. It seems to be a picky round. I've seen posts where people gave up and bought a Noveske barrel.
Post by: Jingles on April 03, 2020, 06:44:23 AM
However maybe it's because I'm 70+ but I remember a time when manufacturers were proud of their product and made the best possible product without having to do a lot of after market changes to get an something that was acceptable. If their product was substandard they worked on the product until it was better before putting it on the market. Granted maybe 1 hole groups is expecting to much especially with the variables of the shooters but when using a vice for a rest, bullets that are handloaded to get consistency in powder charges, bullet seating depth and the other factors that pertain to consistency, regardless of the Rifle Manufacturer the results I am getting are what I call substandard and unacceptable for the price I paid, IMO there should be no reason that a shooter/ purchaser should not expect to be able to shoot quarter size groups out of the box.
Apparently people have come to expect what I call "SUBSTANDARD" products as the norm be it rifles, vehicles or any product when laying out hard earned cash. I know the business my wife and I had if it wasn't the best possible or had any flaws regardless of how minute we didn't let it go out the door. I believe that is called having pride in your product and apparently producers don't have that anymore they are more worried about just turning out a product.
Post by: hunter399 on April 03, 2020, 06:45:42 AM
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.
Post by: Jingles on April 03, 2020, 06:55:39 AM
I seen the pics of your reloading books I guess you are spot on with powder charge.You ever just tried a plain old soft point bullet there better for hunting anyway.
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.
No not 20 times I went all the way back to "BOOT CAMP" and ran bore brush 50 strokes in and 50 strokes out, with new brush, swabbed and brushed 50 more. As afar as soft point yes have tried 55 grain Spitzter boat tails (SBT), 65 grain SBT with numerous different loads, and different primers CCI 400, and Fed 205's
Post by: 300rum on April 03, 2020, 07:08:40 AM
Post by: hunter399 on April 03, 2020, 07:09:28 AM
WowI seen the pics of your reloading books I guess you are spot on with powder charge.You ever just tried a plain old soft point bullet there better for hunting anyway.
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.
No not 20 times I went all the way back to "BOOT CAMP" and ran bore brush 50 strokes in and 50 strokes out, with new brush, swabbed and brushed 50 more. As afar as soft point yes have tried 55 grain Spitzter boat tails (SBT), 65 grain SBT with numerous different loads, and different primers CCI 400, and Fed 205's
I'm out ideas sorry.
Post by: konradcountry on April 03, 2020, 01:43:32 PM
Don't worry about all the other suggestions on here, buy some Federal GMM and let us know what it does. It will tell you what your rifle will do, eliminating your reloads as a factor. If GMM doesn't shoot there is something else going on. If GMM shoots, its your reloads, it's probably your reloads.
I'm gonna second 300rum again. Get some off the shelf 69 grain and try it out.
Video of a guy trying different loads with that gun
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdzNr5jQoNE#t=3m51s
Post by: Yondering on April 03, 2020, 02:59:16 PM
I seen the pics of your reloading books I guess you are spot on with powder charge.You ever just tried a plain old soft point bullet there better for hunting anyway.
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.
No not 20 times I went all the way back to "BOOT CAMP" and ran bore brush 50 strokes in and 50 strokes out, with new brush, swabbed and brushed 50 more. As afar as soft point yes have tried 55 grain Spitzter boat tails (SBT), 65 grain SBT with numerous different loads, and different primers CCI 400, and Fed 205's
OK I gotta ask - are you able to shoot ANY rifle to the accuracy standards you're expecting from this AR? The shooter is a big part of the equation, and a stock AR is a little more difficult to shoot than a well tuned bolt action, especially if you're using the factory trigger.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but from your posts I'm not getting the impression that you know much about precision shooting or about developing precision handloads. That's not intended as an insult, but to point out that those things are a huge part of making any rifle shoot 0.5 moa. You can't just blame it on the manufacturer if your skills and ammo aren't up to the task.
I do agree with the others that trying some good ammo like Federal Gold Metal Match 69gr or 77gr is a good place to start. However I would not expect those to shoot 0.5 moa either; they should be capable of ~1 moa or a little better, but a true consistent 0.5 moa load requires some work in load development for that specific rifle. And by load development I do not mean just randomly trying different components.
Here are some tips on load development:
- Start with a known accuracy bullet. The 69gr Sierra Matchking is probably the best to start with, as it's very easy to find good loads for.
- Figure out the max powder charge for the powder you want to use. I strongly suggest trying Ramshot XTerminator and using their data (Western Powders Load Guide 7.0 is a free download); they list 5.56 data for that 69gr SMK bullet. Start low, and with 3-5 rounds at a time work up to that max load to verify it's safe. Now that you know what works in this rifle, it's time for accuracy testing.
- Start by testing seating depth first, not powder charge weight. Load a series of 4-5 shots each at different seating depths to start with; you're mostly limited to 2.260" max OAL with AR magazines so start there. Try something like 2.260", 2.245", 2.230", and 2.215" OAL, 4-5 rounds of each of those.
- For powder charge with those, you can load ~0.5gr below max, but I recently learned a better way that works well: vary the powder charge at each seating depth, maybe somewhere between max and 1.5gr below max. This helps show better what seating depth is best.
- Now shoot those rounds in a round-robin system, meaning you'll label a separate target for each seating depth, and shoot one shot at a time at each. Then come back around and shoot another shot of each at a time. This makes sure that each group has the same (or similar) impacts of barrel fouling and barrel temp, among other things. When you're done, the targets should show a particular seating depth that is more accurate than the others. That's your seating depth for that bullet. If you want to dial it in better you can repeat the test at finer increments around that best seating depth, or just go with what you found out.
- With that new optimum seating depth, now you can test for optimum powder charge in pretty much the same fashion; load different charge weights about 0.3gr apart up to max. Use that optimum seating depth for all of them.
- When that is done, you can try different primers if you want with another similar test.
Personally, with certain powders that are known to shoot best at max charges (like Ramshot Xterminator, and Leverevolution in my experience) I don't do a powder charge accuracy test with some of my rifles; I just find max, test for optimum seating depth, and go shooting.
YMMV and there are a lot of different methods and opinions about load development and there can be a lot more to it, but the above is a solid way to get started, in my experience.
Post by: Alchase on April 03, 2020, 03:17:21 PM
Don't worry about all the other suggestions on here, buy some Federal GMM and let us know what it does. It will tell you what your rifle will do, eliminating your reloads as a factor. If GMM doesn't shoot there is something else going on. If GMM shoots, its your reloads, it's probably your reloads.
I'm gonna second 300rum again. Get some off the shelf 69 grain and try it out.
Video of a guy trying different loads with that gun
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdzNr5jQoNE#t=3m51s
:yeah:
Before you blame your rifle, do as 300rum and Konradcountry suggests, buy some good match grade ammo. It is a known quantity, and if it shoots well you know your rifle is fine.
Post by: Goshawk on April 06, 2020, 05:36:08 PM
Thanks everyone for the responses and suggestions on what needs to be done to make this get at least get close to my expectations after all a rifle regardless of what kind it is if it isn't accurate it isn't worth being called a rifle. Maybe I'll never get it to be a 5 shot one hole performer but hopefully at least 5 of 5 in a quarter otherwise it's gonna be gone.
If you're anywhere near Lewis County, I have a range, bench, and reloading gear we can dive into it for you.