Post by: CougHunter on April 08, 2020, 02:40:54 PM
Post by: kirkl on April 08, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
This program will occur from Sept. 9 - Oct. 17, 2020.
In order to participate, volunteers must apply in groups of 3-6 people, and participate in one of three scheduled removal sessions.
Participants must:
attend one day of training at the beginning of each designated removal session
pass a background check
meet requirements for physical fitness, orienteering, and experience recreating in extensive mountainous wilderness.
Groups may consist of field support personnel and expert marksmen; only those who pass a firearms proficiency test (which will be administered during each training) will be permitted to shoot goats in the park. Each group must have at least one person that passes the firearms proficiency test.
Volunteers must supply all their own required equipment and supplies, including suitable firearms and non-toxic ammunition.
Applications will be accepted until at least April 17. After that date, it will close as soon as 30 qualified groups apply, or on April 24 (whichever comes first).
For the past three years the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife has been a partner with Olympic National Park and many other organizations in this effort to return the ecosystem to a natural state. Thank you for considering participation in this important effort to remove nonnative mountain goats from the Olympic National Park.
Please visit nps.gov/olym/getinvolved/mountain-goat-management-removal.htm for more information.
Post by: swordtine on April 08, 2020, 02:53:58 PM
Post by: Alchase on April 08, 2020, 02:56:33 PM
Post by: RG on April 08, 2020, 03:05:00 PM
Post by: Oldguy on April 08, 2020, 03:09:08 PM
Post by: Katmai Guy on April 08, 2020, 03:15:58 PM
Post by: Milkman on April 08, 2020, 03:17:25 PM
Post by: downtownbrown0610 on April 08, 2020, 03:22:08 PM
Post by: linxx77 on April 08, 2020, 03:24:35 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Pegasus on April 08, 2020, 03:25:40 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on April 08, 2020, 03:26:32 PM
Post by: linxx77 on April 08, 2020, 03:27:54 PM
I’m guessing a ton of people on this forum can handle that!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: timberfaller on April 08, 2020, 03:29:16 PM
Post by: acrim on April 08, 2020, 03:29:28 PM
Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 08, 2020, 03:37:58 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 08, 2020, 03:42:50 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 03:45:28 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2020, 03:45:59 PM
Non lead ammunition? Are they serious? Goats are one of the harder animals to kill with good ammunition.
Copper bullets work great.
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 08, 2020, 03:49:44 PM
Can I join someone's team?
I have good legs, love to hike and shoot straight when I'm not drinking beer!
Post by: idahohuntr on April 08, 2020, 03:50:16 PM
I was just reading this. I will give the WDFW credit though that they are finally volunteering hunters to do this instead of hiring contractors to kill them.:yeah:
I was very pleased about the approach
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 03:52:12 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on April 08, 2020, 03:57:55 PM
Post by: gaddy on April 08, 2020, 04:00:54 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 04:01:16 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on April 08, 2020, 04:03:51 PM
Post by: N7XW on April 08, 2020, 04:04:24 PM
Possibly 15 miles in that country is no joke.:yeah:
Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 08, 2020, 04:05:33 PM
I am totally in if someone is forming a legit group. My dream is to hunt goats and this sounds like a great opportunity. I have all my gear and can shoot and hike
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 04:09:26 PM
How many goats and why the need for "non-lead ammunition"? How many bullets will be needed to kill the goats and are they using fully automatic firearms? This is what happens when non-hunters basically run the WDFW.
From the link posted in the first post:
"Volunteers must supply all their own required equipment and supplies, including suitable firearms and non-lead ammunition"
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 08, 2020, 04:10:31 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 04:11:07 PM
I read in to it and it sounds like the hunter can keep meat and hide. The DFW wants some samples and the skull plate.
I am totally in if someone is forming a legit group. My dream is to hunt goats and this sounds like a great opportunity. I have all my gear and can shoot and hike
I'd be a little more serious about it if all this uncertainty wasn't going on in the world right now. Pretty sure I won't be taking any significant time off this year after all this current cluster we're in.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 04:14:17 PM
April 17th is the deadline. Groups need to be 3-6 groups.
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 04:20:09 PM
Guys need to remember that this country is no joke and before applying need to think long and hard if they have got the skills to be productive in that country. As Josh said, 15+ miles one way for a few of these areas and then you gotta get em out. Anyone can hit a pie plate at 200 yards. Need to be honest with yourself about the other stuff :twocents: I'm in with a group of 6. It's a pretty impressive resume so we shall see how it shakes out. As shane said, it sucks and I don't agree with it but it's happening regardless soo...
Spot on. This isn't about shooting ability. It's about having a level of fitness to get you where you need to be along with the gear to do it along with the skills and then you have to be able to find the goats, get to them, etc. It's not a walk in the park. Also there will be a good chance there's snow on the ground too.
Post by: shanevg on April 08, 2020, 04:39:41 PM
I obviously wish I could keep horn/hide but at least being able to keep meat makes me very interested. I have a group of tentatives so far, will almost certainly be applying myself.
Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 08, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
Guys need to remember that this country is no joke and before applying need to think long and hard if they have got the skills to be productive in that country. As Josh said, 15+ miles one way for a few of these areas and then you gotta get em out. Anyone can hit a pie plate at 200 yards. Need to be honest with yourself about the other stuff :twocents: I'm in with a group of 6. It's a pretty impressive resume so we shall see how it shakes out. As shane said, it sucks and I don't agree with it but it's happening regardless soo...
Spot on. This isn't about shooting ability. It's about having a level of fitness to get you where you need to be along with the gear to do it along with the skills and then you have to be able to find the goats, get to them, etc. It's not a walk in the park. Also there will be a good chance there's snow on the ground too.
This is precisely why i am interested. A Goat and Sheep hunt are my dream hunt because of the difficulty it brings.
Post by: CLARKTAR on April 08, 2020, 04:48:48 PM
Do the hunters get to keep the goats?Whatever you can pack out
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 08, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
So no horns or hide it sounds like, but you do get to keep meat?
I obviously wish I could keep horn/hide but at least being able to keep meat makes me very interested. I have a group of tentatives so far, will almost certainly be applying myself.
I just sent an email asking for clarification on what can be kept. It says they need a hair sample but doesnt specify if that means the whole hide or just some hair.
Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 08, 2020, 04:53:39 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 04:58:12 PM
Hmm.
Well I look at that mountain range every day from my deck so I feel like I should get first dibs.. :chuckle:
Post by: Fuhrmem on April 08, 2020, 05:06:14 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 08, 2020, 05:25:38 PM
Possibly 15 miles in that country is no joke.Also, need to factor in the weather possibilities for that time frame. Last year it was in the 40's and rain/fog during the day for a lot of it around 4,000 ft. As you went to 6,000 it got closer to low 30's and fog/drizzle. Night got cold. A few years ago, I'd say that on the earlier part of those dates was really hot and still during the day (lots of bugs) and at night not too bad, but the later part of the range was snow/ice and below 20's at 6,000.
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 05:30:32 PM
Snow/slush/barely warm enough to rain.
Kill all the goats you see. Kids, nannies, billies.
Give them the horns.
They don’t have a lot of meat on them.
I mean if you just want to go shoot some goats, have at it.
Someone said one of the areas is 18 miles one way. They’re not going to want someone to go in, kill a goat and then leave because you want to pack your meat out. They’re looking for you to whack and stack as many goats as you can.
With my luck, I’d walk in 18 miles and it would be pissing rain/snow/slush for 3 days and then I’d walk out.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 06:40:35 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 06:46:51 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 08, 2020, 07:01:12 PM
I think it’s important people make sure they read all the info. This is not a “dream hunt”.:yeah: lot of folks with stars in their eyes right now. Understandably so, but people really need to be honest with themselves about all that this entails :twocents:
Post by: HntnFsh on April 08, 2020, 07:03:21 PM
Post by: LongBomb on April 08, 2020, 07:04:50 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 07:05:52 PM
I thought they were going to do 1 more series of transplants this summer? Is this happening after that or are they done with transplants?
They are. Prior to the shoot project.
Post by: Houndhunter on April 08, 2020, 07:12:18 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on April 08, 2020, 07:12:31 PM
Post by: buglebrush on April 08, 2020, 07:14:11 PM
Post by: Buckhunter24 on April 08, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
Thanks guys. What a waste of some beautiful animals. Has anybody heard how many they think they will need to cull after the transplant?
:yeah: its a bummer.
Post by: actionshooter on April 08, 2020, 07:22:29 PM
I think it’s important people make sure they read all the info. This is not a “dream hunt”.:yeah: lot of folks with stars in their eyes right now. Understandably so, but people really need to be honest with themselves about all that this entails :twocents:
This will be an ass kicker for sure and the goats aren't quite as easy to find as they used to be... I was contacted by a guy today about joining a group and giving it serious consideration but I have spent enough time in there that I know what's involved. IMO that's the roughest terrain in the state.
My guess is that the NPS and WDFW are going to be shocked by the response.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on April 08, 2020, 07:23:29 PM
Non lead ammunition? Are they serious? Goats are one of the harder animals to kill with good ammunition.
Copper bullets work great.
Ever shot a goat? They can take a licking and keep on ticking. Anything light that has a tendency to break apart isn't going to go very deep in a goat. I have seen wounded goats do amazing things.
Post by: CP on April 08, 2020, 07:23:40 PM
If I was 20 years younger I would be all over this.
:yeah: #MeToo
Post by: actionshooter on April 08, 2020, 07:25:38 PM
Thanks guys. What a waste of some beautiful animals. Has anybody heard how many they think they will need to cull after the transplant?From my understanding the goal is 100% removal.... they are non native and are trying to restore back to the original state.
The NPS is doing the same thing in the Tetons
Post by: HntnFsh on April 08, 2020, 07:27:30 PM
Thanks guys. What a waste of some beautiful animals. Has anybody heard how many they think they will need to cull after the transplant?From my understanding the goal is 100% removal.... they are non native and are trying to restore back to the original state.
The NPS is doing the same thing in the Tetons
Thanks, I knew they wanted 100% removal. I was wondering about a guesstimate number wise.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 07:33:11 PM
I think it’s important people make sure they read all the info. This is not a “dream hunt”.:yeah: lot of folks with stars in their eyes right now. Understandably so, but people really need to be honest with themselves about all that this entails :twocents:
You know it rains up in them mountains...I thought you East side guys melt in the rain :chuckle:
Maybe you should sit this out and let some Westside guys handle it ... ;)
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 07:37:30 PM
Also when do you think the animal rights law suit will show up...I know some of the recent goat hunter's up there have had some interesting encounters with people while hunting.
Post by: cbond3318 on April 08, 2020, 07:47:51 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 08, 2020, 07:49:17 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 08:09:43 PM
What is WDFW’s roll in this? Unless I missed it, you don’t even have to be a Wa resident.
[/quote
I'm not completely sure yet .but you know wdfw is involved. Most of the correspondence I've received and see is coming from wdfw..I could be wrong but I'm sure they've had some say in this.
Post by: highside74 on April 08, 2020, 08:17:41 PM
Post by: lewy on April 08, 2020, 08:26:30 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 08:30:00 PM
Why do I have a feeling this won’t end up happeningLawsuits may stop it but so far all the relocation stuff has happened. The project is definitely a go unless some court stuff stops it.
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 08:31:41 PM
Post by: The scout on April 08, 2020, 08:34:45 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 08, 2020, 08:36:09 PM
I wanna know how many people are going to pass up shooting nannies and kids on a search for a booner billy.
I'm planning on going in there with a Nemo Omen and shooting everything white that moves.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 08:43:12 PM
I wanna know how many people are going to pass up shooting nannies and kids on a search for a booner billy.
I'm planning on going in there with a Nemo Omen and shooting everything white that moves.
Jealous. Always wanted one of those Nemo Omen's......
Post by: lewy on April 08, 2020, 08:45:11 PM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on April 08, 2020, 08:56:51 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 08, 2020, 08:58:55 PM
That bitch Carol Baskin is gunna *censored* this all up
:yeah: Exactly :chuckle:
Post by: nwhunter on April 08, 2020, 09:41:16 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 09:43:20 PM
Post by: nwhunter on April 08, 2020, 09:45:49 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 08, 2020, 09:46:37 PM
I wanna know how many people are going to pass up shooting nannies and kids on a search for a booner billy.
I'm planning on going in there with a Nemo Omen and shooting everything white that moves.
Jealous. Always wanted one of those Nemo Omen's......
Oh I don't have one lol. Having one is probably more realistic than going on this hunt.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 09:49:32 PM
I wanna know how many people are going to pass up shooting nannies and kids on a search for a booner billy.
I'm planning on going in there with a Nemo Omen and shooting everything white that moves.
Jealous. Always wanted one of those Nemo Omen's......
Oh I don't have one lol. Having one is probably more realistic than going on this hunt.
True. Only a fraction of people applying will get selected.
But those 338 Win Mag Nemo Omen's I looked at on their website awhile back were cool. Darn near bought one.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 08, 2020, 09:51:30 PM
I agree but the original option was to have helicopters with with gunners killing them and leaving them lay so at least this way the majority of the goats can be recovered with hunters involved..
And hunter's will take the blame as opposed to the park service and their hired marksmen. :twocents:
Post by: bigtex on April 08, 2020, 09:54:48 PM
What is WDFW’s roll in this? Unless I missed it, you don’t even have to be a Wa resident.Minimal.
Technically WDFW does not have jurisdiction within Olympic or Mt. Rainier National Parks since they are exclusive federal jurisdiction (similar to a military base) however the NPS does let WDFW assist on some projects.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 08, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
Removing these goats has never made sense to me but with that said this is the second most sensible thing the Park has decided to do along with the capture and transplant. I am all for sportsmen/women/hunters being involved as management tools in this project. It looks like they did their homework on being as informative as possible about how tough a hunt this will be and getting serious experienced applicants. I hope everyone keeps this positive as its one of the few positive things we have had in this state especially hunting related in awhile with all the closures and uncertainty. .Could be a cool opportunity for the right people..Wow, no kidding. Really interesting how in depth the park went in the descriptions. I noticed they have Mt Constance and Deception as one area....no understating how tough that one is. Then Olympus, the first 13 miles isn't bad, but the last 5 is a slog. I was planning to hike Olympus/Blue Glacier anyways this summer, but this would be so much cooler. I guess that's why the park wants a doctor to sign off on applicants. Some lucky hunters are going to have some fun.
Post by: Tbar on April 08, 2020, 10:04:29 PM
I agree but the original option was to have helicopters with with gunners killing them and leaving them lay so at least this way the majority of the goats can be recovered with hunters involved..This is round one. Helicopters will still be needed.
Post by: Jellymon on April 08, 2020, 10:26:39 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on April 09, 2020, 08:03:02 AM
I agree but the original option was to have helicopters with with gunners killing them and leaving them lay so at least this way the majority of the goats can be recovered with hunters involved..
And hunter's will take the blame as opposed to the park service and their hired marksmen. :twocents:
You beat me to it. I can see this getting skewed very quickly and easily to give hunters a black eye.
This culling effort isnt going to have hunters going in and killing a goat and packing that 1 goat out. Its going in and killing as many as you can whether billies, nannies or kids and if you happen to pack some out. Well thats ok. Honestly the whole thing disgusts me. I couldnt shoot 1 of such a majestic animal let alone multiples of them just to leave them lay and go to waste. Thats just me though.
Considering the options if somebody else wanted to do it I understand thats their choice. I wouldnt hold it against them because it is a little better than the given alternative. But I hope they know they arent going on a goat hunt per se. But a killing expedition. I honestly think there will be teams that will go in there with full intentions to do as asked. Kill every goat they see. But when the time comes they will kill a goat or 2 and realize thats all they will be able to get out and stop at that.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 08:14:05 AM
Post by: Bullkllr on April 09, 2020, 08:58:21 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 09:04:40 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 09, 2020, 09:15:31 AM
it's all good! I already called dibs on Bullblasters rain gear again :chuckle:I think it’s important people make sure they read all the info. This is not a “dream hunt”.:yeah: lot of folks with stars in their eyes right now. Understandably so, but people really need to be honest with themselves about all that this entails :twocents:
You know it rains up in them mountains...I thought you East side guys melt in the rain :chuckle:
Maybe you should sit this out and let some Westside guys handle it ... ;)
Post by: opdinkslayer on April 09, 2020, 09:33:00 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 09:43:13 AM
Can you have a non resident on the team?
It's being operated by the National Park Service. Not WDFW. NPS just used WDFW's email contact system to get the word out. All communications for this are directly with the Feds. There is no residency requirement, just US citizenship. Plus signing up as an unpaid NPS volunteer employee, agreeing to the social media contract, physician's note, etc. other requirements listed.
Post by: templar021 on April 09, 2020, 09:58:39 AM
And what is with the part about native American ceremonies using the horns. I thought these were non native. Oh wait, the science is settled.... :twocents:
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on April 09, 2020, 10:36:26 AM
@hirshey @blubberhunter @betterderrick
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 09, 2020, 10:50:03 AM
And these hunts being after the relocation happens I suspect there won't be that many goat's left. And the ones left will be super spooked from being chased around all summer by Helio's. Half that country requires technical climbing skills. It's definitely not going to be your typical goat hunt.
Just about the time someone gets ready to shoot, a helo will buzz the goats.🤣
Lots of sore muscles or nothing.🤣
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
So it looks like they will have to shoot nearly 300 goats after all relocation efforts are completed. While I'd like to get a goat, this doesn't seem to be the appropriate venue. I would be surprised if it didn't get shut down. If it doesn't, expect company.
This is the problem...
This isn't a goat hunt. It's a culling operation. You will have company. You will be told where to go. You are supposed to shoot every goat you see. Nannies, 5 month old kids, little billies, big billies. Not at all intended to be anything remotely close to a "quality" experience.
Post by: Pegasus on April 09, 2020, 10:52:10 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 09, 2020, 11:10:53 AM
:yeah:So it looks like they will have to shoot nearly 300 goats after all relocation efforts are completed. While I'd like to get a goat, this doesn't seem to be the appropriate venue. I would be surprised if it didn't get shut down. If it doesn't, expect company.
This is the problem...
This isn't a goat hunt. It's a culling operation. You will have company. You will be told where to go. You are supposed to shoot every goat you see. Nannies, 5 month old kids, little billies, big billies. Not at all intended to be anything remotely close to a "quality" experience.
I do think there is a chance that it can be a good experience for some but I really do think there is a high probability that it won't be the "experience" most are expecting.
Post by: Pegasus on April 09, 2020, 11:23:55 AM
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 11:27:31 AM
This has all of the earmarks of a horrible anti-hunting outcome. Imagine the liberal press spouting tales of the hunters slaughtering the baby lambs and defenseless nannies. I bet many of the kills will never be recovered. Maybe they should award the prize of also allowing clubbing baby seals to death to the top five teams? This will become a PR nightmare for the hunting community.:yeah:
They also will have easy access to document the aftermath. They will sensationalize it in its entirety.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 09, 2020, 11:35:32 AM
The idea of getting to hunt/slaughter goats might sound good, but there’s going to be devil in the aftermath.
The PR damage from this to the hunting community is going to be terrible. The term volunteer is going to equal hunter in the end.
All those hunters went into the park and killed the billies, nannies, and the kids.
I get the idea of that it might save taxpayer money not to have paid shooters, but it not worth the backlash we are going to receive from it.
Look at hound hunting, trapping, baiting predators. What’s going to come out of this next time the tree huggers run a initiative on straight up hunting?
Let the Feds pay for their own dirty work, and keep us from getting blamed. :twocents:
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 11:40:03 AM
I hunt for food..I don't take Killing things lightly, I've done plenty of that in my life..(killing)
Long talk with my group and we are out..if they did a bunch of permits for hunting the area I would apply. But being a hired gun for the NP that kills everything...no thanks.
And I'm not judging anyone that stick's this out..good luck and be safe. :tup:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 09, 2020, 11:58:19 AM
Post by: idaho guy on April 09, 2020, 12:47:23 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 09, 2020, 12:59:52 PM
Most of us finally got what we have been whining about(especially me). I have always complained about them paying sharp shooters instead of letting hunters do it for free-well here it is they are doing it. I have a group and we are putting in. The idea of shooting a kid goat is not pleasant or exciting at all. I still think we should do what they ask and take as many goats as possible or they probably wont use hunters again. If the only thing hunters come out with are 9 inch plus billies they will never use hunters again. If you only want to shoot a nice billy and nothing else I don't think you should apply. I think its a huge opportunity for showing the value of hunters as management tools. If selected I hope everyone does their best to accomplish the parks objective even if some parts of it will be ugly. To the best of our ability my team will salvage everything possible and I think that's important. One picture of a bunch of dead goats rotting would do a lot of damage to the hunting community. The antis will try and exploit this for sure and all teams need to be carefull on how they do things. I agree it is not a "dream hunt" but its a great opportunity for hunters to show we are part of the solution and really should be the first choice for game management:yeah:
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 01:04:21 PM
I'm just thinking out loud mostly..
I've been teaching my kid the last few years why we hunt..I then tried to explain this cull to him.. he's smart and asked why not just spend the next couple years re locating them to boost other herds.. killing them seems counterproductive.. he knows how much I complain every year when I see goat permits continue to be 1or 2 per hunt area... :chuckle:
Post by: Pegasus on April 09, 2020, 01:17:42 PM
Post by: Skillet on April 09, 2020, 01:22:50 PM
-I'm way too busy in September
-I don't agree with killing a bunch of goats that I don't think are a real problem
-I don't think I'd like to kill nannies and kids
-I think there are better people for this particular job out there that would be more effective
I do really hope the NPS is smart enough to select people that will do this right without trashing hunters' image by being selfish with taking pics/vids and sharing them. You know there are some guys that are at this very moment trying to figure it how to get around their "No pics" rules. If you could weed out those guys that need an IG or FB post to prove they exist, then this could be a great partnership between the NPS and the hunting community.
:twocents:
Post by: Buckhunter24 on April 09, 2020, 01:30:43 PM
Post by: h20hunter on April 09, 2020, 01:32:36 PM
Post by: bigmacc on April 09, 2020, 01:33:02 PM
I see both sides of this and if it were any of the other states that actually have a better track record for being more favorable to hunters I would be 100% behind it, having said that, this is Washington state, its backing and support for hunters has deteriorated drastically over the years and with that they have lost the trust and respect of alot of hunters in this state. This is a tool for the state to save money, thats it, if anyone thinks this is an effort to help repair relationships with hunters, well, I got a bridge for sale. If this turns into a hay day for the anti-hunting community(which IMO it has a very good chance of) I would be very surprised if this state would come to the defense of us as hunters. I think the state knows this is going to be horrible PR and they don't want to be in it alone, heres an opportunity to throw hunters a bone and have them be a part of a PR catastrophe and take some heat off of them, sorry, I don't trust this states politics one bit when it comes to us as hunters or as gun owners.... :twocents:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 09, 2020, 01:42:46 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
This isnt being run by the state. Its all fed.
:yeah:
It's in the National Park. The state WDFW has nothing to do with it.
Post by: HntnFsh on April 09, 2020, 01:51:31 PM
This isnt being run by the state. Its all fed.
:yeah:
It's in the National Park. The state WDFW has nothing to do with it.
But those that will be screaming and hollering wont bother to differentiate between the entities.
Post by: bigmacc on April 09, 2020, 01:54:16 PM
This isnt being run by the state. Its all fed.
Who announced this? WDFW?
Oh I know but the state of Washington and WDFW are part since it is happening in this state, the negative PR by antis will be pointed in this direction, as a hunter I wouldn't want to be looking down that barrel, especially as a hunter in this state. Just my opinion, from someone who has slowly witnessed the deterioration of support for hunters by this state, like I said, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. I would be first in line, this happening in the state of Washington, well, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Once again, just my opinion.
Post by: bigmacc on April 09, 2020, 01:56:56 PM
This isnt being run by the state. Its all fed.
:yeah:
It's in the National Park. The state WDFW has nothing to do with it.
But those that will be screaming and hollering wont bother to differentiate between the entities.
Yep!
Post by: Pegasus on April 09, 2020, 02:04:38 PM
Post by: bigmacc on April 09, 2020, 02:11:44 PM
WDFW is involved in a way and since it is in a national park there is all the more reason to fear the press. Being national it will become a national story. Just wait....it is coming. They won't even need pics, they will just fake their own of the poor lambs being slaughtered by the big, bad hunters. It is what they do and it will happen.
:yeah: Bingo..... If anyone thinks the State of Washington will have the backs of we as hunters when this thing blows up, well then I not only have that bridge for sale but it also sits on ocean front property in beautiful Arizona!.......Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, no problem, this happening in THIS state, using we as hunters as the tools, big problem.
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2020, 02:19:06 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 02:21:20 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Post by: hunterednate on April 09, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 02:28:04 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 02:30:57 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
That's going to clash with kuiu gear..
Post by: AlpineMuley on April 09, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 02:55:04 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
That's going to clash with kuiu gear..
I wonder how many plans just got crushed when they found out they'll have to wear NPS uniforms on their goat hunts.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 03:00:16 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
That's going to clash with kuiu gear..
I wonder how many plans just got crushed when they found out they'll have to wear NPS uniforms on their goat hunts.
I didnt see it anywhere but is there a release of liability form mixed in the paperwork. Unless they are using the term temp unpaid "employee" very loosely.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 03:06:43 PM
My guess is there would be, but I don't know.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 09, 2020, 03:07:01 PM
I'll wear a pink chicken suit the whole week if that's the requirement :chuckle:I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
That's going to clash with kuiu gear..
I wonder how many plans just got crushed when they found out they'll have to wear NPS uniforms on their goat hunts.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 03:09:28 PM
I'll wear a pink chicken suit the whole week if that's the requirement :chuckle:I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
That's going to clash with kuiu gear..
I wonder how many plans just got crushed when they found out they'll have to wear NPS uniforms on their goat hunts.
You say that but with the media agreement we would never be able to see pics for proof...so nice try.
Post by: idaho guy on April 09, 2020, 03:30:23 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
And the volunteers are wearing NPS gear in this project......they ask for your sizes on the application.
Wait, you can get a free shirt out of this? I'm in! Adult Medium.
Even better. A "safety vest".
That's going to clash with kuiu gear..
I am going to put my kuiu jacket over the safety vest! problem solved oh wait I don't have a kuiu jacket :chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on April 09, 2020, 03:52:12 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
Its not going to be when "some people" get upset its going to be when a lot of people get upset and it will be on a national level, every anti hunting group, every humane society and every enemy to hunters in this country are going to know about this and its going to happen right in the backyard of a state who's politics are already not helping us as hunters in many ways. Sorry, this state will not have us as hunters in their interest when the crap hits the fan over this, hope I'm wrong but we as a hunting community will not benefit over this and it will be used for nothing but horrible publicity against the hunting community, compounding it more (knowing this state), they will hang us out to dry on this and will not have our backs when the crap does hit the fan. As a hunter in THIS state I would not want anything to do with this, thats just me and my opinion and I really do hope I'm wrong because it is going to happen, I personally just would not want my name attached because I really don't see anything positive coming out of this for us as hunters, only negative which is the last thing we as hunters need. Theres a reason they are not using government sharpshooters and its not because they want to be "nice" to hunters or save money, its because of the hornets nest thats going to blow up and they don't want to take all the heat, they want to spread the pain and bringing hunters into the mix who already have many enemies is the perfect patsy, I repeat, I hope Im wrong, Ive just been around to long I guess, Ive seen whats happened to hunting and hunters over the past 60 plus years, heck I remember myself and family members having articles written about the deer we killed in 3 different cities newspapers in the sports sections and seeing school buses, company vehicles and family cars driving down roads with deer strapped on and people honking and giving thumbs up. Fellas, those days are gone unfortunately, this has nothing but bad written all over it for us as hunters.
Post by: baker5150 on April 09, 2020, 03:53:42 PM
Considering the region we live in, this won't go over well with a lot of people, and a lot of them live within a few hours drive of these trail heads.
People are crazy. Some more than others, especially when animals are involved.
Post by: Bullkllr on April 09, 2020, 05:16:27 PM
Post by: Bango skank on April 09, 2020, 05:21:33 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
Its not going to be when "some people" get upset its going to be when a lot of people get upset and it will be on a national level, every anti hunting group, every humane society and every enemy to hunters in this country are going to know about this and its going to happen right in the backyard of a state who's politics are already not helping us as hunters in many ways. Sorry, this state will not have us as hunters in their interest when the crap hits the fan over this, hope I'm wrong but we as a hunting community will not benefit over this and it will be used for nothing but horrible publicity against the hunting community, compounding it more (knowing this state), they will hang us out to dry on this and will not have our backs when the crap does hit the fan. As a hunter in THIS state I would not want anything to do with this, thats just me and my opinion and I really do hope I'm wrong because it is going to happen, I personally just would not want my name attached because I really don't see anything positive coming out of this for us as hunters, only negative which is the last thing we as hunters need. Theres a reason they are not using government sharpshooters and its not because they want to be "nice" to hunters or save money, its because of the hornets nest thats going to blow up and they don't want to take all the heat, they want to spread the pain and bringing hunters into the mix who already have many enemies is the perfect patsy, I repeat, I hope Im wrong, Ive just been around to long I guess, Ive seen whats happened to hunting and hunters over the past 60 plus years, heck I remember myself and family members having articles written about the deer we killed in 3 different cities newspapers in the sports sections and seeing school buses, company vehicles and family cars driving down roads with deer strapped on and people honking and giving thumbs up. Fellas, those days are gone unfortunately, this has nothing but bad written all over it for us as hunters.
There is only one "humane society" as far as anti hunting groups. The HSUS. they have absolutely no relation to your local "humane societies" that run snimal shelters. They just use that name for their org to con people out of money, make them think theyre donating to animal shelters, when theyre really just giving money to an anti hunting litigation group.
Post by: bigmacc on April 09, 2020, 05:43:01 PM
I just don't get the concern over this. The people who are volunteering, are basically unpaid federal employees. The goats would be killed either way. Just this way the government is saving money by using people who are willing to do the work for free. And if some people get upset over it happening- well, too bad.
Its not going to be when "some people" get upset its going to be when a lot of people get upset and it will be on a national level, every anti hunting group, every humane society and every enemy to hunters in this country are going to know about this and its going to happen right in the backyard of a state who's politics are already not helping us as hunters in many ways. Sorry, this state will not have us as hunters in their interest when the crap hits the fan over this, hope I'm wrong but we as a hunting community will not benefit over this and it will be used for nothing but horrible publicity against the hunting community, compounding it more (knowing this state), they will hang us out to dry on this and will not have our backs when the crap does hit the fan. As a hunter in THIS state I would not want anything to do with this, thats just me and my opinion and I really do hope I'm wrong because it is going to happen, I personally just would not want my name attached because I really don't see anything positive coming out of this for us as hunters, only negative which is the last thing we as hunters need. Theres a reason they are not using government sharpshooters and its not because they want to be "nice" to hunters or save money, its because of the hornets nest thats going to blow up and they don't want to take all the heat, they want to spread the pain and bringing hunters into the mix who already have many enemies is the perfect patsy, I repeat, I hope Im wrong, Ive just been around to long I guess, Ive seen whats happened to hunting and hunters over the past 60 plus years, heck I remember myself and family members having articles written about the deer we killed in 3 different cities newspapers in the sports sections and seeing school buses, company vehicles and family cars driving down roads with deer strapped on and people honking and giving thumbs up. Fellas, those days are gone unfortunately, this has nothing but bad written all over it for us as hunters.
There is only one "humane society" as far as anti hunting groups. The HSUS. they have absolutely no relation to your local "humane societies" that run snimal shelters. They just use that name for their org to con people out of money, make them think theyre donating to animal shelters, when theyre really just giving money to an anti hunting litigation group.
Yep and the HSUS and their supporters(Hollywood types, antis and the Twitter nation) will be right in the thick of this, bad joo-joo for hunters folks if we partake in this, bad joo-joo.... :twocents:
Post by: Aginor on April 09, 2020, 06:04:33 PM
Anyone want to form a group with me?I’m in!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For real, if anyone wants to form a group I've hiked 1,700 miles in Washington in the past two years including about 500 in Olympic National Park. I'm very familiar with the area
https://caltopo.com/m/B201
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Aginor on April 09, 2020, 07:10:20 PM
I wanna know how many people are going to pass up shooting nannies and kids on a search for a booner billy.
I'm planning on going in there with a Nemo Omen and shooting everything white that moves.
I'm fairly white though and I move :o
Post by: Aginor on April 09, 2020, 07:15:14 PM
Just checked again..still steep :chuckle:
Are you up in Poulsbo?
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 07:52:37 PM
Just checked again..still steep :chuckle:
Are you up in Poulsbo?
Oh heck no... :chuckle: ( grew up there)
I'm in c-beck
Post by: Humptulips on April 09, 2020, 08:35:54 PM
Post by: Aginor on April 09, 2020, 08:43:07 PM
Oh heck no... :chuckle: ( grew up there)Just checked again..still steep :chuckle:
Are you up in Poulsbo?
I'm in c-beck
Ah, got the wrong angle on the Brothers
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 09:06:00 PM
So, You get to pack out hide and meat if you want. Does DFW provide a transport tag? If not, what do you do if stopped outside the Park?
WDFW isn't involved.
If stopped outside the park, the selected voluntary NPS employees will show their documentation to law enforcement. We all signed multiple documents for this process. We'll also have NPS insignia vests on us. If selected.....
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 09:36:10 PM
So, You get to pack out hide and meat if you want. Does DFW provide a transport tag? If not, what do you do if stopped outside the Park?It’s not like it’s a secret covert black ops mission.
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 09, 2020, 09:39:29 PM
So, You get to pack out hide and meat if you want. Does DFW provide a transport tag? If not, what do you do if stopped outside the Park?It’s not like it’s a secret covert black ops mission.
Yes it is too!!! I've got my uniform almost done up. Don't take that away from me
Post by: CLARKTAR on April 09, 2020, 09:40:48 PM
Can you have a non resident on the team?Yes. Whole team can be non WA residents. But I think you have to be USA citizen
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:09:57 PM
So, You get to pack out hide and meat if you want. Does DFW provide a transport tag? If not, what do you do if stopped outside the Park?It’s not like it’s a secret covert black ops mission.
Yes it is too!!! I've got my uniform almost done up. Don't take that away from me
Clearly you didn’t read the memo about NPS uniforms.
Post by: Gentrys on April 09, 2020, 10:50:34 PM
And I wouldn't consider this a hunt gentlemen. The idea of pulling the trigger on a bunch of young goats is wrong IMO, regardless of the Fed's reasons.
Post by: jamesfromseattle on April 09, 2020, 11:04:37 PM
Post by: Katmai Guy on April 09, 2020, 11:23:26 PM
Here's what is going to happen... One idiot who goes on this eradication is going to share pictures of his group's kills, including the nannies and kids. When the public sees these pictures, which they will, it's going to be one of the biggest BLACK EYES our hunting community has ever seen. The kind of fuel the anti-hunting groups thrive on.:yeah: leave it to the hired guns, WDFW is just looking for a bunch of scapegoats to help begin the end of hunting in WA. :twocents:
And I wouldn't consider this a hunt gentlemen. The idea of pulling the trigger on a bunch of young goats is wrong IMO, regardless of the Fed's reasons.
Post by: addicted2hunting on April 09, 2020, 11:30:05 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 10, 2020, 05:28:31 AM
Another thing that I think is worth noting is that even for the best hunters this might not be a high success rate hunt. Not like a normal OIL. They’re doing more live captures this summer and are taking everything out of there they can. I think this hunt is just to clean up the final holdouts. I don’t think it’s going to be a bloodbath because it could be legitimately difficult to locate a goat. In some of the units there may not even be any goats left.
:yeah: I think this may be more common than the crazy goat slaughter some people seem to be envisioning.
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 10, 2020, 05:29:18 AM
Post by: baker5150 on April 10, 2020, 07:22:06 AM
Here's what is going to happen... One idiot who goes on this eradication is going to share pictures of his group's kills, including the nannies and kids. When the public sees these pictures, which they will, it's going to be one of the biggest BLACK EYES our hunting community has ever seen. The kind of fuel the anti-hunting groups thrive on.:yeah: leave it to the hired guns, WDFW is just looking for a bunch of scapegoats to help begin the end of hunting in WA. :twocents:
And I wouldn't consider this a hunt gentlemen. The idea of pulling the trigger on a bunch of young goats is wrong IMO, regardless of the Fed's reasons.
It's been well established that the WDFW isn't involved in this hunt, it's the National Parks Service.
Post by: jackelope on April 10, 2020, 07:52:49 AM
Another thing that I think is worth noting is that even for the best hunters this might not be a high success rate hunt. Not like a normal OIL. They’re doing more live captures this summer and are taking everything out of there they can. I think this hunt is just to clean up the final holdouts. I don’t think it’s going to be a bloodbath because it could be legitimately difficult to locate a goat. In some of the units there may not even be any goats left.
First of all this shouldn't be anything like any OIL hunt at all...by design. Theeeee problem in this regard are the guys who are signing up and treating it as an OIL tag. I mean it will be a once in a lifetime experience for sure....but it is designed to be a cull hunt. Not too many people in their lives will be able to say they've done something like this.
Secondly...They're going to send groups to where they know goats are. They will know because the NPS will be flying and surveying and they'll know where the goats are that are left. Hey....Goat team 6...you're assigned to this area. Kill em all! It's almost supposed to be a blood bath.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 10, 2020, 07:57:00 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2020, 07:59:21 AM
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
Post by: westsidehntr on April 10, 2020, 08:00:13 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
:yeah:
Post by: Bango skank on April 10, 2020, 08:11:39 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
But this offer seems to request indiscriminate killing to wipe them out completely (i know, they want them extirpated) and will likely result in a good amount of meat left to waste. Guys shooting a female and several juveniles, leaving a bunch of meat for scavengers, wiping out the population, its a bit different deal than allowing hunters tags to thin out say an elk population to a more reasonable level, with one animal per hunter, where the animal will be recovered, to protect against crop damage for example. Whole different scenario and type of publicity involved.
Post by: Pegasus on April 10, 2020, 08:14:01 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
The old adage: "Be careful what you wish for" seems appropriate here.
Post by: jackelope on April 10, 2020, 08:24:47 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I'm not at all saying run away. I'd do it if I wasn't fat and out of shape. I am saying don't treat it like an OIL hunt or a bucket list hunt, unless you've dreamed of being an APHIS sharpshooter since you were a child. Do the job you volunteered to do and don't pass up nannies in favor of 10" booner billies just because you can keep the horns.
Also I'm saying don't post your hero shots all over Instagram too. This may sound corny, but this virus situation with people freaking out because they can't drive across the state or to a different state to go fishing instead of waiting a few weeks has proven to me that people are more concerned about self-satisfaction than they are about the job at hand.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on April 10, 2020, 08:33:02 AM
:yeah:It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
But this offer seems to request indiscriminate killing to wipe them out completely (i know, they want them extirpated) and will likely result in a good amount of meat left to waste. Guys shooting a female and several juveniles, leaving a bunch of meat for scavengers, wiping out the population, its a bit different deal than allowing hunters tags to thin out say an elk population to a more reasonable level, with one animal per hunter, where the animal will be recovered, to protect against crop damage for example. Whole different scenario and type of publicity involved.
If theres publicity, and given the location/local interest there will be, it will be negative. I dont see a positive benefit to this outside of a few saved dollars. They have clearly spent a lot flying them out already, at this point I think the whole thing should be a hired operation. If reducing numbers was a goal instead of total elimination it would be a whole different story.
Post by: Gentrys on April 10, 2020, 08:43:01 AM
Post by: Buckhunter24 on April 10, 2020, 08:47:33 AM
Post by: bigtex on April 10, 2020, 09:07:30 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.:yeah:
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 10, 2020, 09:17:50 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I partially agree but I also think the cry to use hunters was meant in the form of increased tag allotments and opportunities to "hunt" something that would otherwise be unachievable in todays draw system.
It would seem that if they offered numerous tags and several 5 day seasons in those areas and let people hunt, the perception might be different and guys would be able to check the goat hunt box off their list. Over a couple years of re location and special permits they would could accomplish the same goal. For some reason though they decided this is the year that all goats have to be gone. And what happens when this is all said and done and there are still a couple hundred goats in the area. Helo kills or a retry next year. :dunno:
Post by: stlusn30-06 on April 10, 2020, 09:19:39 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 10, 2020, 09:26:58 AM
This is pretty straight forward. This is a non native species causing damage to the ecosystem they've found themselves in. In the North American model of wildlife management there are many, many examples of times species were introduced long before anyone knew what was going on, only to be completely eradicated from an area decades later. That is what is unfolding here. This is not meant to be the hunt of a lifetime. It the NPS using volunteers to complete a task. As members of the conservation community hunters have been called on (across the country) to participate in these types of operations many times over the years. If you have hiked in any of these areas recently, you may have experienced the goats coming into your campsite, or staring you down while you eat lunch. You may end up glassing a Billy across snow capped peaks. You'll likely be directed where to go and will participate in a cull. Despite the "this isn't conservation, this isn't hunting" rhetoric, this is exactly what conservation looks like, and it was not meant to be a hunt. It is going to be a hard, ugly job doing things a lot of people don't like doing to improve habitat for future generations. This was what science based management looks like vs. but my feelings say we should just leave them management. It's not always the way we wish it could be.
So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.
I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people. Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. :twocents:
There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 10, 2020, 09:39:14 AM
More the ecosystem for the science/management approach. If it was a 'native' animal messing with hikers or their lunches, it would be more signs. If you could shoot out an animal for bad behavior, I would think that grizzlies in Glacier and Yellowstone would have posses forming too.This is pretty straight forward. This is a non native species causing damage to the ecosystem they've found themselves in. In the North American model of wildlife management there are many, many examples of times species were introduced long before anyone knew what was going on, only to be completely eradicated from an area decades later. That is what is unfolding here. This is not meant to be the hunt of a lifetime. It the NPS using volunteers to complete a task. As members of the conservation community hunters have been called on (across the country) to participate in these types of operations many times over the years. If you have hiked in any of these areas recently, you may have experienced the goats coming into your campsite, or staring you down while you eat lunch. You may end up glassing a Billy across snow capped peaks. You'll likely be directed where to go and will participate in a cull. Despite the "this isn't conservation, this isn't hunting" rhetoric, this is exactly what conservation looks like, and it was not meant to be a hunt. It is going to be a hard, ugly job doing things a lot of people don't like doing to improve habitat for future generations. This was what science based management looks like vs. but my feelings say we should just leave them management. It's not always the way we wish it could be.
So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.
I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people. Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. :twocents:
There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on April 10, 2020, 09:39:38 AM
So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.
I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people. Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. :twocents:
There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.
[/quote]
I'm going by what the agencies have laid out as their reasoning. It is a combination of both habitat degradation and issues with human interaction. Their population has grown exponentially since introduction. I take your point when it comes to other non-native species. Non-natives don't get priority of they aren't causing serious issues. The leaving of non-natives not causing issue vs remove anything non-native is an age old debate. It probably won't get solved here.
Post by: jamesfromseattle on April 10, 2020, 09:48:49 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I'm not at all saying run away. I'd do it if I wasn't fat and out of shape. I am saying don't treat it like an OIL hunt or a bucket list hunt, unless you've dreamed of being an APHIS sharpshooter since you were a child. Do the job you volunteered to do and don't pass up nannies in favor of 10" booner billies just because you can keep the horns.
Also I'm saying don't post your hero shots all over Instagram too. This may sound corny, but this virus situation with people freaking out because they can't drive across the state or to a different state to go fishing instead of waiting a few weeks has proven to me that people are more concerned about self-satisfaction than they are about the job at hand.
I full agree with this. It's a volunteer job and not a hunt. It's not and shouldn't be viewed as a glory hunt. If I was in better shape right now I'd be interested because it would be a unique experience, but it wouldn't be to scratch the same itch as a bucket list hunt. Different beast altogether.
The ethical considerations that apply to a cull are very different than a typical hunt, but they should be. When you're hunting you're trying to interact with nature as it is. When you're culling you're intentionally changing the ecosystem. It's not wrong--it's just a different thing.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 10, 2020, 09:50:36 AM
So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.
I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people. Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. :twocents:
There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.
I'm going by what the agencies have laid out as their reasoning. It is a combination of both habitat degradation and issues with human interaction. Their population has grown exponentially since introduction. I take your point when it comes to other non-native species. Non-natives don't get priority of they aren't causing serious issues. The leaving of non-natives not causing issue vs remove anything non-native is an age old debate. It probably won't get solved here.
[/quote]
I get its based on their reasoning. I've been following the reasoning for a couple years and haven't really agreed with it. But I'm not a Park scientist either.
Its unfortunate really. The Olympics would be one of the best goat units in the state if they would just manage it that way. The goats up there went un hunted for so many years. I would of hoped they would have given hunting a few years to help fix the problem. :twocents:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 10, 2020, 09:55:41 AM
So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.
I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people. Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. :twocents:
There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.
I'm going by what the agencies have laid out as their reasoning. It is a combination of both habitat degradation and issues with human interaction. Their population has grown exponentially since introduction. I take your point when it comes to other non-native species. Non-natives don't get priority of they aren't causing serious issues. The leaving of non-natives not causing issue vs remove anything non-native is an age old debate. It probably won't get solved here.
I get its based on their reasoning. I've been following the reasoning for a couple years and haven't really agreed with it. But I'm not a Park scientist either.
Its unfortunate really. The Olympics would be one of the best goat units in the state if they would just manage it that way. The goats up there went un hunted for so many years. I would of hoped they would have given hunting a few years to help fix the problem. :twocents:
[/quote]
They barely dodged that last goat lawsuit from the hiker's death. I'd imagine a second death would favor the plaintiffs not the park, cost more than the whole removal operation.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on April 10, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
Another thing that I think is worth noting is that even for the best hunters this might not be a high success rate hunt. Not like a normal OIL. They’re doing more live captures this summer and are taking everything out of there they can. I think this hunt is just to clean up the final holdouts. I don’t think it’s going to be a bloodbath because it could be legitimately difficult to locate a goat. In some of the units there may not even be any goats left.
First of all this shouldn't be anything like any OIL hunt at all...by design. Theeeee problem in this regard are the guys who are signing up and treating it as an OIL tag. I mean it will be a once in a lifetime experience for sure....but it is designed to be a cull hunt. Not too many people in their lives will be able to say they've done something like this.
Secondly...They're going to send groups to where they know goats are. They will know because the NPS will be flying and surveying and they'll know where the goats are that are left. Hey....Goat team 6...you're assigned to this area. Kill em all! It's almost supposed to be a blood bath.
After this is all over, I think NPS is going to be surprised at the number of goats that are still alive. I truly doubt they will eradicate them as is their plan. They will knock down the numbers, yes. But they will not get them all.
For one thing, I don't believe they have a clue how many goats there really are, especially if they are using aerial counts to get their numbers. Goats can be anywhere from the tops of mountains down to sea level. And they aren't as easy to see from the air as you would think.
The last goat hunt I did in Alaska, a friend an I flew a couple days before we hunted, with an ex Alaska enforcement officer who also did a lot of flying for Fish and Game. We had decided to hunt an area we weren't real familiar with so we wanted to see where goats might be, and even more important, how we might safely access the area and pack a goat out. We spent a couple hours in the air and saw what we thought was a decent amount of animals And finally decided to hunt up a ridge that went up into a basin with a couple small lakes surrounded by much higher peaks. But there seemed to be a few animals in the basin and on the peaks. we saw some singles and a couple doubles and one bunch of 5. We took off from town in my boat and anchored in a bay below the ridge on the morning of the hunt and started up. When we got up to about 2,000 feet we started getting into goats. My buddy got a nice 9 inch billy and we got together for some pictures. Then a bunch of about a dozen goats came out of a gorge and climbed up the side of a peak going up some cliffs that had to be seen to be believed. They were out of range and also in a spot that we agreed was ridiculous to try to get to. So while my friend took care of his goat, I went up the ridge farther and found more goats including a couple decent billies. And I got one. My friend joined me and while we were celebrating our double, much farther up the ridge we spotted a group of over 20 nannies and kids. We ended up seeing over 50 goats that day from the ground. In an area we'd flown and seen about 10 a couple days before. And this was in a unit that the bio told us had maybe 200 goats in the whole area. So we had seen supposedly 1/4 of the goats in the unit on a ridge on one side of a mountain in a unit that was hundreds of square mile in area. Could it have happened that the goats from all around congregated in that one small area? I guess. But a better guess would be that there were a lot more goats in the unit than they thought, and they don't see as many of them from the air as they think. I know what we saw when we flew and what we saw with boots on the ground.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 10, 2020, 10:20:37 AM
Helicopters will likely be doing most of the lethal removal, but the ground based volunteers will augment that.
There are fines and charges against the volunteers for violating the social media agreement that everybody had to sign. Volunteers fall under the NPS rules for all behavior, as if they were a full time employee. It's all spelled out clearly. Once teams are selected, the members won't be able to do much discussion about it on this forum. Not without NPS approval.
Here's the excerpt on what was defined years ago in the Record of Decision/EIS, and they're sticking to the plan with this summer being the third year of the live capture effort. Then switching to helicopter and ground based volunteers for lethal removal.
Alternative C: Lethal Removal
Under alternative C, lethal removal using shotguns or high-powered rifles would be used to reduce or eliminate mountain goats from the park and adjacent Olympic National Forest. Mountain goats would not be translocated under this alternative. Specific management activities for the lethal removal of mountain goats would include helicopter- and ground-based use of firearms. Park staff and other approved personnel, including trained volunteers, would access areas on foot that are accessible, but in more remote areas, a helicopter would be used for lethal removal activities. Following lethal removal, mountain goat carcasses would remain on the landscape but would be moved from areas of high visitor use and occupied marmot habitat.
Initial lethal removal actions would involve removing as many mountain goats as possible from the Olympic Peninsula. It is expected that at least 90% of the projected 2018 mountain goat population, or approximately 625 to 675 mountain goats, could be removed during the initial management phase. Carcasses that result from aerial operations would remain in place if the carcasses are in steep and remote terrain and crews conducting ground-based lethal removal would remove as much carcass material as they are safely able to carry. Carcasses that are near areas of high human use would be relocated at least 325 feet away when safe to do so. Maintenance activities under alternative C would involve opportunistic ground- and helicopter-based lethal removal throughout the summer and fall seasons as personnel, funding, weather, and accessibility of targeted mountain goats allow. Maintenance activities would be
Olympic National Park 3 Mountain Goat Management Plan/ Record of Decision
prioritized in proximity to areas of high visitor use and areas experiencing high levels of resource damage.
The timing and duration of the initial management phase under alternative C would be 3 to 5 years, with most activity occurring in years 1 to 3. Lethal removals would be conducted only if necessary in years 4. and 5. In an effort to reduce the use of helicopters for lethal removal, management would start with ground-based activities, using skilled public volunteers and park staff in year 1. Helicopter-based operations would occur within the same 2-week management periods as described for alternative B, and ground-based lethal removal would take place opportunistically at any time during the year as needed.
Alternative D: Combination of Capture and Translocation and Lethal Removal
Under alternative D, initial management would involve the capture and translocation of as many mountain goats as possible, similar to alternative B, followed by a switch to lethal removal, similar to alternative C. Initial management activities under alternative D could last 3 to 5 years, with most of the activity in years 1 to 4. It is anticipated that nearly all management activities in year 1 would consist of live capture and translocation, which would continue to be the primary reduction tool during year 2. In year 1, capture operations would focus on locations where mountain goats can be safely captured and where they are interacting with visitors and resources. Some capture operations would continue into year 3 in the event of weather-related or other logistical constraints in years 1 and 2. Some lethal removal could be scheduled as early as the second capture operation in year 1, but only for those mountain goats that are determined to be uncatchable. Capture operations would occur during two 2-week management periods per year: once in mid- to late July, and once in late August to mid-September.
It is anticipated that initial management under alternative D would remove at least 90% of the mountain goat population, or approximately 625 to 67 5 mountain goats. Approximately 50% of the mountain goats would be captured and relocated and the remaining mountain goats would be lethally removed. Groundbased lethal removal would most likely start in the fall of year 2, directly after the second capture operation is completed. It is anticipated that the success rate for capturing mountain goats would diminish over time and management would likely switch to almost exclusively lethal removal during year 3 or year 4 of the initial management, but could begin as early as year 2. By year 5, most mountain goats encountered would be lethally removed.
SELECTED ALTERNATIVE
The NPS has selected alternative D, as described in the plan/EIS, for implementation. As described above, the selected alternative will use a combination of capture and translocation and lethal removal to reduce or eliminate mountain goats from the park.
The number of mountain goats to be removed, management activities, and the timing of management activities under the selected alternative are described below.
Mountain Goat Population Goal. The desired eventual population size is zero, although it is acknowledged that it may not be possible to capture or lethally remove all mountain goats. At least 90% of the population will be removed.
Initial Management. It is estimated that approximately 50% of the mountain goat population could be captured, or approximately 325-375 animals, based on the estimated 2018 population size. Capture and translocation will take place prior to lethal removal activities. Another estimated 40% of the original mountain goat population (approximately 275-325 animals) will be lethally removed. These 'activities will ultimately result in the removal of at least 90% of the mountain goat population.
Olympic National Park 4 Mountain Goat Management Plan/ Record of Decision
Maintenance Activities. At most, 10% of the mountain goat population will remafo following initial management. Maintenance activities will be prioritized in areas of high visitor use and will target larger groups of mountain goats that appear most likely to increase in number.
Post by: bearpaw on April 10, 2020, 10:28:55 AM
Even though I would rather see these goats managed by allowing hunting opportunities into the future, park bureaucracy and public sentiment will probably never allow that. I think given the decision to remove the goats that good efforts have and are being made to make the most of these goats that live in the park.
They relocated many of the goats to bolster other herds that can be hunted in the future, I applaud that effort. Now they are doing a goat cull with volunteers which is financially responsible and allows goats to be utilized by humans to some extent, I also applaud this effort. I would expect helicopter culling to be the next effort for the eradication to be as complete as possible.
IMO, there has been a good effort to utilize the goats. Unless there are continued eradication efforts for several years I am skeptical the removal will be a complete removal of the specie from the Olympics and I'm further inclined to think that goats will likely migrate back into the park over time. Two things lost in this insatiable desire to maintain natural environments is that sometimes species and environments do change and that man is part of the environment. At what point does man actually alter the natural evolution by taking various actions to save or eliminate species? We will never know for sure!
At any rate, I think too much is being made of this issue, it's not a hunt, it's a cull. This is a good effort to allow humans to make use of some of the goats which IMO is much better than simply culling all the goats with a helicopter. :twocents:
Post by: kselkhunter on April 10, 2020, 10:32:22 AM
I really question the claim that goats never existed in the Olympics, perhaps there are remains of goats from centuries ago that simply have not been found? We may never know for sure! The hunting community supports the scientific management of wildlife and the management of wildlife via hunting whenever possible. The decisions have been made that these goats are non-native and to remove them.
Even though I would rather see these goats managed by allowing hunting opportunities into the future, park bureaucracy and public sentiment will probably never allow that. I think given the decision to remove the goats that good efforts have and are being made to make the most of these goats that live in the park.
They relocated many of the goats to bolster other herds that can be hunted in the future, I applaud that effort. Now they are doing a goat cull with volunteers which is financially responsible and allows goats to be utilized by humans to some extent, I also applaud this effort. I would expect helicopter culling to be the next effort for the eradication to be as complete as possible.
IMO, there has been a good effort to utilize the goats. Unless there are continued eradication efforts for several years I am skeptical the removal will be a complete removal of the specie from the Olympics and I'm further inclined to think that goats will likely migrate back into the park over time. Two things lost in this insatiable desire to maintain natural environments is that sometimes species and environments do change and that man is part of the environment. At what point does man actually alter the natural evolution by taking various actions to save or eliminate species. We will never know for sure!
At any rate, I think too much is being made of this issue, it's not a hunt, it's a cull. This is a good effort to allow humans to make use of some of the goats which IMO is much better than simply culling all the goats with a helicopter. :twocents:
Completely agree. Well summarized.
And Congress would never change the law to allow hunting in a national park, so I can see why they didn't bother pursuing that through Congress.
They traced the release of goats back to 1925-29 period where 12 goats were released into the park area (before it was a park). But you're right, I doubt they have much scientific research to prove there were not goats there before. Just theory based on the isolated mountains (they actually have a list of non-native species that were introduced there).
Personally I'd have rather they just left the goats alone.....and dealt with problem goats. One upside to the transplanted goats, is some have been placed into USFS lands that they plan on opening up more goat tags in the future for.
But the train isn't stopping at this point....
Post by: Encore 280 on April 10, 2020, 10:45:21 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 10, 2020, 10:48:32 AM
I haven't read the whole thread but isn't Spring time when the females have the kids? What's the plan for them? :dunno:
They have one last series of relocations this summer to get as many goats out alive as they can. After that, the helicopters and volunteers will cull as many goats as they see, including the females and kids. The goal is zero goats, but the Park service acknowledges even with best efforts that 10% of the goats after a 5-10 year period will still remain and they have continued goat maintenance planned. Just because it's so hard to eradicate a species in that terrain....
Post by: jackelope on April 10, 2020, 10:52:46 AM
I haven't read the whole thread but isn't Spring time when the females have the kids? What's the plan for them? :dunno:
Relocate first or kill what''s left of them. It's a culling operation.
Post by: bigmacc on April 10, 2020, 10:54:50 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
Post by: rainshadow1 on April 10, 2020, 11:25:09 AM
Not what we were going for.
I read this whole thread... Grew up in Sequim. Spent most of my outdoor life in the Olympics. The NPS is running this, but to completely eradicate, they're going to have to work with WDFW, because a few goats are outside the park. (I drew an archery tag when I was 17, missed one shooting straight down on the top of Iron Mountain...) That's why it never ends, I don't know if they've addressed that this round. Yes steep country, the worst, you'll turn back for a new route... often. Yes mountain climate, when it's sunny and happy down below. Yes likely to be a PR nightmare these days, especially since it's not a special tag "hunt" like we always wanted. Ethical hunters may gag to leave them rot after taking samples, but that's what we need... ethical hunters. Shooters in this case, it's not a hunt.
All that said, 20 years ago I'd do it! (Heck, if I was in better shape now I'd still do it!)
Hope some of our guys get in on it.
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2020, 11:29:27 AM
I hope that whoever takes this opportunity is able to achieve their objectives without a lot of adverse reactions. Good luck to the hunters.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 10, 2020, 11:34:51 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
This isn't a program for hunters. This is volunteer employees of the NPS signing up to assist with the culling operation. Based on my understanding the priority of team selection will likely be 1) Employees of companies that do this professionally willing to donate their time, 2) Outfitter/Guides with goat/backcountry experience willing to donate their time, 3) Recreational hunters with prior mountain goat/sheep hunting experience, and 4) Recreational hunters with extensive backcountry and mountaineering experience.
You have to detail all information in the application you submit, with dates/success rates/elevation/etc. of past experiences. Mountaineering/climbing experiences. Etc. History as a guide/outfitter. Backpacking experiences, naming wilderness areas and national parks and mileage details.
There are lots of hopeful teams applying. But most of the 18 teams will be made up of professionals, guides, and very experienced folks (ie Karl's, Shane's, etc. type of teams). I'm assuming they're going to get well over 30 teams applying. Many recreational hunt teams applying are not going to get selected. Folks are so worried about the dead goats images for PETA damaging "hunters"....the NPS is also worried about stories of inexperienced volunteers bodies getting airlifted after falling off a cliff.....they're taking the screening process seriously. Air gunning from helicopters will be most of the effort, and that is likely to attract much of the PETA heat initially. They closed sections of the park where goat relocation efforts are happening, and I'm expecting them to close some sections when the volunteer teams go in as well.
The antis already beat this to death 6 years ago. Sure there will be plenty of protests and lawsuits again now that the culling part of the program has finally arrived. And it's possible they succeed in getting it stopped, we'll see. Part of the application also includes detailing your experiences in personally dealing with public outcry in prior government employment or volunteer roles. Both the NPS and the volunteers that applied are going into this with eyes wide open.
Post by: bigmacc on April 10, 2020, 11:40:16 AM
I’m not sure how much of a fair comparison it is, but for several years in the early 2000s I hunted the high buck hunt in one of the Olympic wilderness areas. We were about five miles in from the trailhead. We packed in and out with rifles on our backs, and with deer on our backs coming out when successful. We encountered hikers in limited numbers on most trips and never had a bad experience with any of them. There seemed to be a respect that we got there on our own two feet, the same way they did. We didn’t bother them, and they didn’t bother us.
I hope that whoever takes this opportunity is able to achieve their objectives without a lot of adverse reactions. Good luck to the hunters.
Its not a fair comparison Bob, and heres the difference, back in my heydays (1950,s,60,s,70,s,) those same hikers would have actually helped pack out your gear and would have wanted pictures taken with your deer! :chuckle: :chuckle:....times have changed :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2020, 12:01:56 PM
For sure my body agrees with that. :chuckle:I’m not sure how much of a fair comparison it is, but for several years in the early 2000s I hunted the high buck hunt in one of the Olympic wilderness areas. We were about five miles in from the trailhead. We packed in and out with rifles on our backs, and with deer on our backs coming out when successful. We encountered hikers in limited numbers on most trips and never had a bad experience with any of them. There seemed to be a respect that we got there on our own two feet, the same way they did. We didn’t bother them, and they didn’t bother us.
I hope that whoever takes this opportunity is able to achieve their objectives without a lot of adverse reactions. Good luck to the hunters.
Its not a fair comparison Bob, and heres the difference, back in my heydays (1950,s,60,s,70,s,) those same hikers would have actually helped pack out your gear and would have wanted pictures taken with your deer! :chuckle: :chuckle:....times have changed :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 10, 2020, 12:11:06 PM
kselk, really appreciate all your insight on this. Lot of hysteria flying around and it's nice to have data that is a bit more focused.It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
This isn't a program for hunters. This is volunteer employees of the NPS signing up to assist with the culling operation. Based on my understanding the priority of team selection will likely be 1) Employees of companies that do this professionally willing to donate their time, 2) Outfitter/Guides with goat/backcountry experience willing to donate their time, 3) Recreational hunters with prior mountain goat/sheep hunting experience, and 4) Recreational hunters with extensive backcountry and mountaineering experience.
You have to detail all information in the application you submit, with dates/success rates/elevation/etc. of past experiences. Mountaineering/climbing experiences. Etc. History as a guide/outfitter. Backpacking experiences, naming wilderness areas and national parks and mileage details.
There are lots of hopeful teams applying. But most of the 18 teams will be made up of professionals, guides, and very experienced folks (ie Karl's, Shane's, etc. type of teams). I'm assuming they're going to get well over 30 teams applying. Many recreational hunt teams applying are not going to get selected. Folks are so worried about the dead goats images for PETA damaging "hunters"....the NPS is also worried about stories of inexperienced volunteers bodies getting airlifted after falling off a cliff.....they're taking the screening process seriously. Air gunning from helicopters will be most of the effort, and that is likely to attract much of the PETA heat initially. They closed sections of the park where goat relocation efforts are happening, and I'm expecting them to close some sections when the volunteer teams go in as well.
The antis already beat this to death 6 years ago. Sure there will be plenty of protests and lawsuits again now that the culling part of the program has finally arrived. And it's possible they succeed in getting it stopped, we'll see. Part of the application also includes detailing your experiences in personally dealing with public outcry in prior government employment or volunteer roles. Both the NPS and the volunteers that applied are going into this with eyes wide open.
As for the dead bodies everywhere and the wonton waste of game claims, all the guys from groups that actually have a shot at participating in this are all on the same page.....lot of heavy packs will come out of those mountains. Can't speak to others but my 6 man team will be able to move some serious loads. We've got special operations guys, a sniper, lots of medical training, mountaineering qualifications, a competition shooter, sheep and goat hunters, an emt/smoke jumper, and all are well accomplished backpack hunters. Every one of them are as tough as men can get. We are all very serious about being effective, efficient, and are all very aware that we are representing hunters as a whole and will act accordingly. Then there's me :chuckle: I shoot stuff and am 100% at not dying on hunts :chuckle:
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2020, 12:15:34 PM
I will be very surprised if your group doesn't come back with favorably memorable experiences, and mildly surprised if your packs don't have some goats in them.really appreciate all your insight on this. Lot of hysteria flying around and it's nice to have data that is a bit more focused.It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
This isn't a program for hunters. This is volunteer employees of the NPS signing up to assist with the culling operation. Based on my understanding the priority of team selection will likely be 1) Employees of companies that do this professionally willing to donate their time, 2) Outfitter/Guides with goat/backcountry experience willing to donate their time, 3) Recreational hunters with prior mountain goat/sheep hunting experience, and 4) Recreational hunters with extensive backcountry and mountaineering experience.
You have to detail all information in the application you submit, with dates/success rates/elevation/etc. of past experiences. Mountaineering/climbing experiences. Etc. History as a guide/outfitter. Backpacking experiences, naming wilderness areas and national parks and mileage details.
There are lots of hopeful teams applying. But most of the 18 teams will be made up of professionals, guides, and very experienced folks (ie Karl's, Shane's, etc. type of teams). I'm assuming they're going to get well over 30 teams applying. Many recreational hunt teams applying are not going to get selected. Folks are so worried about the dead goats images for PETA damaging "hunters"....the NPS is also worried about stories of inexperienced volunteers bodies getting airlifted after falling off a cliff.....they're taking the screening process seriously. Air gunning from helicopters will be most of the effort, and that is likely to attract much of the PETA heat initially. They closed sections of the park where goat relocation efforts are happening, and I'm expecting them to close some sections when the volunteer teams go in as well.
The antis already beat this to death 6 years ago. Sure there will be plenty of protests and lawsuits again now that the culling part of the program has finally arrived. And it's possible they succeed in getting it stopped, we'll see. Part of the application also includes detailing your experiences in personally dealing with public outcry in prior government employment or volunteer roles. Both the NPS and the volunteers that applied are going into this with eyes wide open.
As for the dead bodies everywhere and the wonton waste of game claims, all the guys from groups that actually have a shot at participating in this are all on the same page.....lot of heavy packs will come out of those mountains. Can't speak to others but my 6 man team will be able to move some serious loads. We've got special operations guys, a sniper, lots of medical training, mountaineering qualifications, a competition shooter, sheep and goat hunters, an emt/smoke jumper, and all are well accomplished backpack hunters. Every one of them are as tough as men can get. We are all very serious about being effective, efficient, and are all very aware that we are representing hunters as a whole and will act accordingly. Then there's me :chuckle: I shoot stuff and am 100% at not dying on hunts :chuckle:
Go get 'em.
Post by: 2MANY on April 10, 2020, 12:16:01 PM
Keep your head on a swivel and don't stop to tie your boots.
Post by: bigmacc on April 10, 2020, 12:16:16 PM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
This isn't a program for hunters. This is volunteer employees of the NPS signing up to assist with the culling operation. Based on my understanding the priority of team selection will likely be 1) Employees of companies that do this professionally willing to donate their time, 2) Outfitter/Guides with goat/backcountry experience willing to donate their time, 3) Recreational hunters with prior mountain goat/sheep hunting experience, and 4) Recreational hunters with extensive backcountry and mountaineering experience.
You have to detail all information in the application you submit, with dates/success rates/elevation/etc. of past experiences. Mountaineering/climbing experiences. Etc. History as a guide/outfitter. Backpacking experiences, naming wilderness areas and national parks and mileage details.
There are lots of hopeful teams applying. But most of the 18 teams will be made up of professionals, guides, and very experienced folks (ie Karl's, Shane's, etc. type of teams). I'm assuming they're going to get well over 30 teams applying. Many recreational hunt teams applying are not going to get selected. Folks are so worried about the dead goats images for PETA damaging "hunters"....the NPS is also worried about stories of inexperienced volunteers bodies getting airlifted after falling off a cliff.....they're taking the screening process seriously. Air gunning from helicopters will be most of the effort, and that is likely to attract much of the PETA heat initially. They closed sections of the park where goat relocation efforts are happening, and I'm expecting them to close some sections when the volunteer teams go in as well.
The antis already beat this to death 6 years ago. Sure there will be plenty of protests and lawsuits again now that the culling part of the program has finally arrived. And it's possible they succeed in getting it stopped, we'll see. Part of the application also includes detailing your experiences in personally dealing with public outcry in prior government employment or volunteer roles. Both the NPS and the volunteers that applied are going into this with eyes wide open.
With all due respect, I get what your saying and I understand but in todays world those "volunteer employees of the NPS" that are signing up to assist or be selected are, at the end of the day, "hunters", they are not employed by the government, they are hunters and part of the hunting community, they all have other jobs they will go back to after this hunt/cull and unfortunately in the media will be portrayed as hunters, I am old but not oblivious to what the issues we as hunters face daily and how much we have lost over decades and decades at the hands of anti hunting groups, politics and special interests groups. If anyone underestimates theses enemies of Hunting in this country and the fact that this operation won't be blamed on not only the government but also on our hunting community and will bring another negative light to us, then Im afraid your mistaken. Anyway you look at it, bottom line, they are gathering volunteers that are hunters. Thats the problem in this day and time and especially in this state unfortunately, IMHO, we just don't need to give the enemies of our hunting any more cannon fauder to spin and use against us.... :twocents:
Post by: idaho guy on April 10, 2020, 12:20:40 PM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
The old adage: "Be careful what you wish for" seems appropriate here.
They are ALL going to be killed either by paid (your tax money) sharpshooters who will leave to rot every last goat. Or as has been wished for by many allowing hunters to do it for FREE. and use some or all of the goats.My really last bucket list animal is a mountain goat. I am putting in AGAIN for an Idaho tag and that will be my bucket list goat hunt. I have a team together and this will be an opportunity to yes hunt goats but it is far from my oil goat hunt that I put in for every year in a few state’s. There are parts of this experience that will actually be ugly. If you have hunted for a long time you will experience ugly things that just happened and you wish they wouldn’t have. Part of this cull REQUIRES things that will be messy and frankly for me hard to do and be part of. We will still do everything we can to achieve the park’s objectives and salvage the goats. As far as WDFW using hunters as the sacrificial lamb that is also bull crap. First off this is the nps not your fish and game. Second my team won’t even be from Washington but Idaho Montana and Oregon. So the comment about not doing in in This state(Washington) doesn’t really make sense. We will do our best and I will be back in Idaho and don’t care what greenies freak out over there. I Will do everything in my power to prevent giving anti hunters any kind of ammunition to use this against us. This is an opportunity for me to get together with some great mountain hunters and showcase that hunters should be the first choice for any game management even if it is total eradication. I don’t think they should get rid of the goats but it’s going to HAPPEN regardless. This is our opportunity to prove hunters are the right answer for all game management. This I think could be a grueling hunt physically which is part of the experience and adventure. My favorite hunt was my unlimited Montana sheep hunt because it was so difficult. This is not a dream trophy hunt but it will be a once in a lifetime experience for anyone selected. I hope everyone goes in with the right expectations and attitude of doing the job right. We need to look at the half full glass this is an opportunity to show that hunters should be the first choice. We will not be putting pics on social media half the team doesn’t know what that even means lol. I think some groups will be put right on groups of goats they know the location and others will be put in area they think there might be some. Some teams will have a hard time finding goats I am guessing some will be right on top of them,
Post by: jackelope on April 10, 2020, 12:24:56 PM
really appreciate all your insight on this. Lot of hysteria flying around and it's nice to have data that is a bit more focused.It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
This isn't a program for hunters. This is volunteer employees of the NPS signing up to assist with the culling operation. Based on my understanding the priority of team selection will likely be 1) Employees of companies that do this professionally willing to donate their time, 2) Outfitter/Guides with goat/backcountry experience willing to donate their time, 3) Recreational hunters with prior mountain goat/sheep hunting experience, and 4) Recreational hunters with extensive backcountry and mountaineering experience.
You have to detail all information in the application you submit, with dates/success rates/elevation/etc. of past experiences. Mountaineering/climbing experiences. Etc. History as a guide/outfitter. Backpacking experiences, naming wilderness areas and national parks and mileage details.
There are lots of hopeful teams applying. But most of the 18 teams will be made up of professionals, guides, and very experienced folks (ie Karl's, Shane's, etc. type of teams). I'm assuming they're going to get well over 30 teams applying. Many recreational hunt teams applying are not going to get selected. Folks are so worried about the dead goats images for PETA damaging "hunters"....the NPS is also worried about stories of inexperienced volunteers bodies getting airlifted after falling off a cliff.....they're taking the screening process seriously. Air gunning from helicopters will be most of the effort, and that is likely to attract much of the PETA heat initially. They closed sections of the park where goat relocation efforts are happening, and I'm expecting them to close some sections when the volunteer teams go in as well.
The antis already beat this to death 6 years ago. Sure there will be plenty of protests and lawsuits again now that the culling part of the program has finally arrived. And it's possible they succeed in getting it stopped, we'll see. Part of the application also includes detailing your experiences in personally dealing with public outcry in prior government employment or volunteer roles. Both the NPS and the volunteers that applied are going into this with eyes wide open.
As for the dead bodies everywhere and the wonton waste of game claims, all the guys from groups that actually have a shot at participating in this are all on the same page.....lot of heavy packs will come out of those mountains. Can't speak to others but my 6 man team will be able to move some serious loads. We've got special operations guys, a sniper, lots of medical training, mountaineering qualifications, a competition shooter, sheep and goat hunters, an emt/smoke jumper, and all are well accomplished backpack hunters. Every one of them are as tough as men can get. We are all very serious about being effective, efficient, and are all very aware that we are representing hunters as a whole and will act accordingly. Then there's me :chuckle: I shoot stuff and am 100% at not dying on hunts :chuckle:
Do you have a tack driver?
Post by: bigmacc on April 10, 2020, 12:36:45 PM
really appreciate all your insight on this. Lot of hysteria flying around and it's nice to have data that is a bit more focused.It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
This isn't a program for hunters. This is volunteer employees of the NPS signing up to assist with the culling operation. Based on my understanding the priority of team selection will likely be 1) Employees of companies that do this professionally willing to donate their time, 2) Outfitter/Guides with goat/backcountry experience willing to donate their time, 3) Recreational hunters with prior mountain goat/sheep hunting experience, and 4) Recreational hunters with extensive backcountry and mountaineering experience.
You have to detail all information in the application you submit, with dates/success rates/elevation/etc. of past experiences. Mountaineering/climbing experiences. Etc. History as a guide/outfitter. Backpacking experiences, naming wilderness areas and national parks and mileage details.
There are lots of hopeful teams applying. But most of the 18 teams will be made up of professionals, guides, and very experienced folks (ie Karl's, Shane's, etc. type of teams). I'm assuming they're going to get well over 30 teams applying. Many recreational hunt teams applying are not going to get selected. Folks are so worried about the dead goats images for PETA damaging "hunters"....the NPS is also worried about stories of inexperienced volunteers bodies getting airlifted after falling off a cliff.....they're taking the screening process seriously. Air gunning from helicopters will be most of the effort, and that is likely to attract much of the PETA heat initially. They closed sections of the park where goat relocation efforts are happening, and I'm expecting them to close some sections when the volunteer teams go in as well.
The antis already beat this to death 6 years ago. Sure there will be plenty of protests and lawsuits again now that the culling part of the program has finally arrived. And it's possible they succeed in getting it stopped, we'll see. Part of the application also includes detailing your experiences in personally dealing with public outcry in prior government employment or volunteer roles. Both the NPS and the volunteers that applied are going into this with eyes wide open.
As for the dead bodies everywhere and the wonton waste of game claims, all the guys from groups that actually have a shot at participating in this are all on the same page.....lot of heavy packs will come out of those mountains. Can't speak to others but my 6 man team will be able to move some serious loads. We've got special operations guys, a sniper, lots of medical training, mountaineering qualifications, a competition shooter, sheep and goat hunters, an emt/smoke jumper, and all are well accomplished backpack hunters. Every one of them are as tough as men can get. We are all very serious about being effective, efficient, and are all very aware that we are representing hunters as a whole and will act accordingly. Then there's me :chuckle: I shoot stuff and am 100% at not dying on hunts :chuckle:
Karl, if there was anybody that I would trust in doing this ethically I would put money on you, from what I know from reading your posts and stories you remind me of myself in my younger years, but my fears in this operation have been the repercussions that will surely be aimed at us as hunters by the organizations that do not want us in the woods as hunters. Being as old as I am and having heard all the stories from family members with rich hunting heritages going back over 100 years I can certainly tell you how much things have changed concerning hunting and most of it has been negative as far as we as hunters are concerned, my fear is this could turn into more negative that is spun and used against us, thats all. Have a Pepsi day and shoot straight :tup:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 10, 2020, 12:46:06 PM
Yes Josh we not only have a tack driver but we also have a bug holer :chuckle:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 10, 2020, 12:52:44 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 10, 2020, 12:59:52 PM
Thank you bigmacc! Those concerns are warranted and for that reason (among others) makes my desire to do this even stronger. Needs to be done as "right" as possible. We shall see what shakes out. I wouldn't be surprised if we get selected but I also wouldnt be surprised if we didn't get selected. They are gonna get an endless amount of applications from guys who have no business trying to do this adventure but they are also gonna get some incredible teams applying. I'd love to be in on the selection process :chuckle:
But what about a “pie plate”er?
Yes Josh we not only have a tack driver but we also have a bug holer :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on April 10, 2020, 01:07:50 PM
:dunno:
Post by: kselkhunter on April 10, 2020, 01:51:35 PM
All you need is an intermittent pie plater.
:dunno:
Yeah the proficiency test is perplexing given all the other requirements expected in the applications. 8" groups at 200 yards is all the level of marksmanship they require?
Post by: Encore 280 on April 10, 2020, 03:17:32 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 11, 2020, 03:12:27 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
But this offer seems to request indiscriminate killing to wipe them out completely (i know, they want them extirpated) and will likely result in a good amount of meat left to waste. Guys shooting a female and several juveniles, leaving a bunch of meat for scavengers, wiping out the population, its a bit different deal than allowing hunters tags to thin out say an elk population to a more reasonable level, with one animal per hunter, where the animal will be recovered, to protect against crop damage for example. Whole different scenario and type of publicity involved.
:yeah:
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 11, 2020, 03:30:28 AM
It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.
Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.
I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my :twocents:.........carry on.
:yeah:
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 11, 2020, 03:42:55 AM
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on April 11, 2020, 06:26:59 AM
How many off you have worked for the NPS since the year 2000?
I worked for ONP in Port Angeles for 2 years. In 2009-11
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 11, 2020, 08:19:01 AM
How many off you have worked for the NPS since the year 2000?
I worked for ONP in Port Angeles for 2 years. In 2009-11
What type of work did you do?
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on April 11, 2020, 10:42:16 AM
How many off you have worked for the NPS since the year 2000?
I worked for ONP in Port Angeles for 2 years. In 2009-11
What type of work did you do?
I worked on some projects in the Elwha pre dam removal. Most of the work was in river fabrication, snorkle surveys, and helicopter work doing bull trout relocation from the lakes to upper reaches of the Elwha tributaries.
Post by: 444Marlin on April 11, 2020, 11:57:03 AM
I’m not sure how much of a fair comparison it is, but for several years in the early 2000s I hunted the high buck hunt in one of the Olympic wilderness areas. We encountered hikers in limited numbers on most trips and never had a bad experience with any of them. There seemed to be a respect that we got there on our own two feet, the same way they did. We didn’t bother them, and they didn’t bother us.Heck...that might have been me! I was climber and backpacker before I was into hunting...it was running into guys in the backcountry on the Pen during September that made me think, "I'd like to give that a shot!"
I was looking at those areas that they want to hunt. Those peaks kicked my rear when I was in my 20's and I know I wouldn't be in shape to do it now and I haven't climbed in over 10 years.
Post by: jdcrosse on April 12, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
John Crosse
jdcrosse@comcast.net
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 13, 2020, 08:37:19 AM
Post by: Rob on April 13, 2020, 08:41:36 AM
Post by: Bushcraft on April 20, 2020, 06:35:17 PM
I wonder how much resume puffery was on the applications...and how the NPS can verify any of it.
I can hardly wait to put in the PDR. :chuckle:
Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 22, 2020, 07:32:40 AM
There were at least 225+ team applications.
I wonder how much resume puffery was on the applications...and how the NPS can verify any of it.
I can hardly wait to put in the PDR. :chuckle:
Where did you get the 225 number? just curious
Post by: birddogdad on April 22, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
There were at least 225+ team applications.
I wonder how much resume puffery was on the applications...and how the NPS can verify any of it.
I can hardly wait to put in the PDR. :chuckle:
Where did you get the 225 number? just curious
i read a post yesterday where someone had received an email from Dr Happe and she said over 1000 teams had applied... i cant confirm but that was what i read!
Post by: Bushcraft on April 27, 2020, 07:53:48 AM
There were at least 225+ team applications.
I wonder how much resume puffery was on the applications...and how the NPS can verify any of it.
I can hardly wait to put in the PDR. :chuckle:
Where did you get the 225 number? just curious
When I spoke with the guy at NPS answering the phone, he told me there where over 200 apps. I knew a handful of other teams that would be submitting their apps. Extrapolated/guessed at the 225, but I'm probably not that far off.
Post by: Tbar on April 27, 2020, 07:58:55 AM
Post by: Bushcraft on April 27, 2020, 08:11:35 AM
Bushcraft, where does RMGA stand on the removal? Are you guys participating in the eradication effort?
I can't/won't speak out of turn on RMGA's stance, but I suspect you'll get the gist of it when reading through the lines of different observations they've made.
And yes, I put together a solid squad of very experienced backcountry hunters and big mountain death marchers. :) ;)
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 27, 2020, 09:30:50 AM
Post by: Bushcraft on April 27, 2020, 10:53:07 AM
You could shoot the biggest juvenile Billy in the state!
Haha!
Post by: luvmystang67 on May 18, 2020, 02:01:03 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on May 18, 2020, 04:54:18 PM
Has anyone heard anything at all on this?
I've been hearing June 1st, waiting patiently.....
Post by: stlusn30-06 on May 18, 2020, 10:15:27 PM
If you're waiting on a response, I hope you've got a team of world class men if you think you're waiting for good news.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on May 18, 2020, 10:46:07 PM
Heard a pretty good anecdote the other day about the level of competition. A friend of a friend called the bio running the project trying to get an update. She said "what's your name?" He said "should be easy to find I'm the group leader and name is Aaron with two a's." she said "gonna need more than that. We have 18 group leaders named Aaron spelled with two A's".these comments make me laugh! :chuckle:
If you're waiting on a response, I hope you've got a team of world class men if you think you're waiting for good news.
Post by: luvmystang67 on May 19, 2020, 08:38:44 AM
Heard a pretty good anecdote the other day about the level of competition. A friend of a friend called the bio running the project trying to get an update. She said "what's your name?" He said "should be easy to find I'm the group leader and name is Aaron with two a's." she said "gonna need more than that. We have 18 group leaders named Aaron spelled with two A's".these comments make me laugh! :chuckle:
If you're waiting on a response, I hope you've got a team of world class men if you think you're waiting for good news.
Even these pieces of feedback are helpful.
I'll run my special hunts as if there's no chance of this program happening for me. :tup:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 19, 2020, 09:07:24 AM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on May 19, 2020, 09:10:41 AM
I think there is a lot of rumors going around. According to a reliable source on rokslide it was 13 Aaron's :chuckle:
Now you got my hopes up again.
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 19, 2020, 11:03:02 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 23, 2020, 08:50:21 AM
Post by: Dan-o on May 23, 2020, 01:05:51 PM
Post by: h20hunter on May 23, 2020, 01:10:58 PM
Post by: fowl smacker on May 23, 2020, 01:24:19 PM
Nine more days. Anyone else getting antsy or did the lottery style odds cure you?With the number of applicants, I'm pretty much expecting not to get drawn, but hoping we do.
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on May 23, 2020, 07:52:57 PM
Nine more days. Anyone else getting antsy or did the lottery style odds cure you?
It will be longer. Talked to the person in chargr at the park a few days ago and she said they had 1,200 applicants and would probably not have results on time.
Post by: wooltie on May 29, 2020, 01:19:06 PM
Post by: birddogdad on May 29, 2020, 01:32:14 PM
Nine more days. Anyone else getting antsy or did the lottery style odds cure you?
It will be longer. Talked to the person in chargr at the park a few days ago and she said they had 1,200 applicants and would probably not have results on time.
surprised they didn't just go with the first 18 "qualified" they reviewed.. or if they really want to get rid of the goats, double or triple groups and devide the large areas further..
Post by: bearpaw on May 30, 2020, 05:36:08 PM
Post by: Chad McMullen on May 30, 2020, 06:19:09 PM
From: Happe, Patricia J <Patti_Happe@nps.gov>
Date: Sat, May 30, 2020 at 4:43 PM
Subject: Olympic National Park Mountain Goat Management
To:
I want to thank you for taking the time to apply to be a mountain goat ground removal volunteer at Olympic National Park. The response to the call for volunteers was overwhelming, to say the least. When I pulled together all the individual emails and paper copies that came in the mail, I ended up with over 1,200 group applications.
I know the application was not a quick and easy endeavor to complete, and I am grateful for the time and effort that you put into completing the application. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you, but I needed the time to carefully pull together all the emails into group application packets, and then read and evaluate them all.
The pool of applicants that I received was very impressive, and I regret that I can accept so few. As I described in the webpage, I evaluated all the applications, and pulled out those that were the most highly qualified. From that pool I then did a random draw of 40 applications, asked some colleagues from the NPS and WDFW to review that more restricted pool, and selected 21 groups (yes – 3 more than I originally intended).
As I am sure you can surmise, unfortunately your application was not selected.
I am sorry for the form letter nature of this email, but I know that people want to hear if they were selected as soon as possible, and this is the quickest way I can reach out to everyone.
I am only emailing the group leader (or the team member that corresponded with me if the leader did not supply an email or I could not read their writing). Please pass this email on to the rest of you team members for me.
Thank you again for offering to assist Olympic National Park and our partners in implementing our mountain goat management plan.
Patti Happe
Wildlife Branch Chief
Olympic National Park
600 E Park Ave
Port Angeles WA 98362
Post by: throwingsticks on June 05, 2020, 08:14:06 AM
Thanks guys. What a waste of some beautiful animals. Has anybody heard how many they think they will need to cull after the transplant?
All of them, they are not native to the Olympics. I know it is hard for those with a weak stomach to think about it, but WDFW is following the best science and removing an introduced species to protect the integrity of the ecosystem.
Post by: throwingsticks on June 05, 2020, 08:28:57 AM
Here's the email my team's group leader received earlier today:
From: Happe, Patricia J <Patti_Happe@nps.gov>
Date: Sat, May 30, 2020 at 4:43 PM
Subject: Olympic National Park Mountain Goat Management
To:
I want to thank you for taking the time to apply to be a mountain goat ground removal volunteer at Olympic National Park. The response to the call for volunteers was overwhelming, to say the least. When I pulled together all the individual emails and paper copies that came in the mail, I ended up with over 1,200 group applications.
I know the application was not a quick and easy endeavor to complete, and I am grateful for the time and effort that you put into completing the application. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you, but I needed the time to carefully pull together all the emails into group application packets, and then read and evaluate them all.
The pool of applicants that I received was very impressive, and I regret that I can accept so few. As I described in the webpage, I evaluated all the applications, and pulled out those that were the most highly qualified. From that pool I then did a random draw of 40 applications, asked some colleagues from the NPS and WDFW to review that more restricted pool, and selected 21 groups (yes – 3 more than I originally intended).
As I am sure you can surmise, unfortunately your application was not selected.
I am sorry for the form letter nature of this email, but I know that people want to hear if they were selected as soon as possible, and this is the quickest way I can reach out to everyone.
I am only emailing the group leader (or the team member that corresponded with me if the leader did not supply an email or I could not read their writing). Please pass this email on to the rest of you team members for me.
Thank you again for offering to assist Olympic National Park and our partners in implementing our mountain goat management plan.
Patti Happe
Wildlife Branch Chief
Olympic National Park
600 E Park Ave
Port Angeles WA 98362
Wow that is a HUGE amount of work! sorry you didn't get selected. the 20 some that did must be really bad asses! Best of luck to them
Post by: h20hunter on June 05, 2020, 08:31:15 AM
Goat Recon Eradication Asset Team...
Or just GREAT.....tshirts and hats available.
Post by: throwingsticks on June 05, 2020, 08:39:05 AM
Bushcraft, where does RMGA stand on the removal? Are you guys participating in the eradication effort?
This coming July marks the fourth and final round of live capture and relocation of Olympic National Park’s mountain goats. After this, the park will begin lethal removal starting in September conducted by highly vetted backcountry volunteers. Helicopter gunning is slated to begin in summer of 2021.
To date, the park has successfully captured 326 of their resident goats. 312 of those animals made it to staging area alive where they were handed off to Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife officials to be relocated into the North Cascades. 275 of those animals were released alive and 194 of them are known to be alive in their new home today. 17 kids were relocated to zoos and all alive today. Some of the goats relocated in 2018 are already successfully breeding in the North Cascades and producing offspring - A huge conservation success RMGA is proud to be part of.
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/onp-goat-removal-project-update
Post by: Rob on June 05, 2020, 09:41:13 AM
Thanks guys. What a waste of some beautiful animals. Has anybody heard how many they think they will need to cull after the transplant?
All of them, they are not native to the Olympics. I know it is hard for those with a weak stomach to think about it, but WDFW is following the best science and removing an introduced species to protect the integrity of the ecosystem.
This link has a table of 2018 goat populations and # of goats removed:
https://www.nps.gov/olym/getinvolved/upload/3a-GGR-Unit-Descriptions_V2.docx
I added a column to calculate the approx. remaining goats (peach column). Looks like they have removed about 40% of the goats with more planned this year (covid depending!)
Post by: Tbar on June 05, 2020, 10:45:51 AM
Are you a RMGA representative? You support eradication of one of the most successful mountain goat populations we have ever seen? You have real time data on what goats are alive today? Interesting.....Bushcraft, where does RMGA stand on the removal? Are you guys participating in the eradication effort?
This coming July marks the fourth and final round of live capture and relocation of Olympic National Park’s mountain goats. After this, the park will begin lethal removal starting in September conducted by highly vetted backcountry volunteers. Helicopter gunning is slated to begin in summer of 2021.
To date, the park has successfully captured 326 of their resident goats. 312 of those animals made it to staging area alive where they were handed off to Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife officials to be relocated into the North Cascades. 275 of those animals were released alive and 194 of them are known to be alive in their new home today. 17 kids were relocated to zoos and all alive today. Some of the goats relocated in 2018 are already successfully breeding in the North Cascades and producing offspring - A huge conservation success RMGA is proud to be part of.
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/onp-goat-removal-project-update
Post by: throwingsticks on June 05, 2020, 10:59:00 AM
Are you a RMGA representative? You support eradication of one of the most successful mountain goat populations we have ever seen? You have real time data on what goats are alive today? Interesting.....Bushcraft, where does RMGA stand on the removal? Are you guys participating in the eradication effort?
This coming July marks the fourth and final round of live capture and relocation of Olympic National Park’s mountain goats. After this, the park will begin lethal removal starting in September conducted by highly vetted backcountry volunteers. Helicopter gunning is slated to begin in summer of 2021.
To date, the park has successfully captured 326 of their resident goats. 312 of those animals made it to staging area alive where they were handed off to Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife officials to be relocated into the North Cascades. 275 of those animals were released alive and 194 of them are known to be alive in their new home today. 17 kids were relocated to zoos and all alive today. Some of the goats relocated in 2018 are already successfully breeding in the North Cascades and producing offspring - A huge conservation success RMGA is proud to be part of.
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/onp-goat-removal-project-update
That is a direct quote from RMGA from the link provided to answer the other members question. I have actually never heard of RMGA prior to this thread. paranoid much?
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 05, 2020, 12:01:23 PM