Post by: rainshadow1 on May 11, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Are TC Encore Muzzy barrels legal now? With iron sights, I understand, but closed breech, 209, etc?
Thanks!
Post by: kselkhunter on May 11, 2020, 12:51:21 PM
As long as they are at least 40 caliber for deer and 45 caliber for other species, loaded from the muzzle, use black powder or substitute, and do not use telescopic sight or sight containing glass. 209 primers are legal. Open breech exposed to the elements no longer required for WA.
Post by: Bob33 on May 11, 2020, 12:52:59 PM
https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-414-060
Muzzleloading firearms.
(1) Definitions.
(a) Muzzleloader: A firearm that is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms.
(b) A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a powder charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed.
(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used for deer must be .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(d) Persons lawfully hunting small game with a double barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded.
(e) A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations.
(f) A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(g) A handgun designed to be used with black powder, including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares.
(3) In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. However, a modern handgun may be carried for personal protection. Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms.
(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are legal.
(b) Sights must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.
(d) Those persons lawfully hunting big game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded.
(4) Muzzleloading firearms used during a modern firearm season are not required to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel restrictions.
(5) A violation of this section is punishable under RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.
Post by: LDennis24 on May 11, 2020, 01:38:25 PM
I edited .40 to .45... I don't know how I got that.
Post by: Sabotloader on May 11, 2020, 01:44:51 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on May 11, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
Post by: rainshadow1 on May 11, 2020, 02:03:41 PM
That changed better than I expected. When they asked about it, I made a point to say that the idea wasn't to have unreliable ignition and poor performing bullets. The idea was limited range and one loaded shot at a time. Why wound and lose game just so they could have a nice paragraph of rules?!? Sounds like it was good changes!
Post by: Bob33 on May 11, 2020, 03:10:38 PM
So is the final word... a 45 ML can be used on elk in Washington?Yes. From the WAC above:
(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used for deer must be .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
Post by: HntnFsh on May 11, 2020, 03:17:12 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 11, 2020, 03:21:56 PM
I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
Post by: Sabotloader on May 11, 2020, 03:55:14 PM
I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
That is interesting - so you can use a 45 with a patched round ball on elk! Not saying it would not be successful - but I would hope the person shooting was as good as you can get!
Post by: Bob33 on May 11, 2020, 04:01:25 PM
You could also legally hunt elk with a .24 caliber handgun as long as it has a 4" barrel. Hopefully there is wisdom with some regulations.I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
That is interesting - so you can use a 45 with a patched round ball on elk! Not saying it would not be successful - but I would hope the person shooting was as good as you can get!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 11, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
I think he's talking about the case of using sabots. My muzzy is .50 cal, but the bullets are .458 cal. There were sabots for .452 cal, and I'd imagine you could probably find some to run even small diameter bullets.I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
Post by: kselkhunter on May 11, 2020, 05:29:32 PM
I think he's talking about the case of using sabots. My muzzy is .50 cal, but the bullets are .458 cal. There were sabots for .452 cal, and I'd imagine you could probably find some to run even small diameter bullets.I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
44 cal bullets in 50 cal sabots are also common. 40 cal bullets are typical in 45 cal sabots.
Theoretically speaking, somebody with a 3D printer (or other method) making their own sabots, could hunt with as small of a bullet as they feel like inside a 50 cal sabot and be "legal" based on how the WA regs are written. The odds on somebody trying that are low though, unless somebody wanted to try a copper 6.5mm bullet or something in a muzzy for giggles.
Now I'm curious how fast a 40gr bullet would go behind 120gr BH209... :chuckle: Muzzleloader for sage rats.....
Post by: Bob33 on May 11, 2020, 06:06:18 PM
I understand that but don't find the language ambiguous. It refers to the rifle, not what is shot from it.I think he's talking about the case of using sabots. My muzzy is .50 cal, but the bullets are .458 cal. There were sabots for .452 cal, and I'd imagine you could probably find some to run even small diameter bullets.I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
Post by: Sabotloader on May 11, 2020, 06:23:38 PM
Quote
Now I'm curious how fast a 40gr bullet would go behind 120gr BH209... :chuckle: Muzzleloader for sage rats.....
These sheets will be close
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2Qv23Fd/Lehigh-40x200-CF-HP-BH.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4ddTLDK/400-185gr-Lehigh.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYK3pz1H/40-230FT.jpg)
????
Post by: HntnFsh on May 12, 2020, 05:31:51 AM
I understand that but don't find the language ambiguous. It refers to the rifle, not what is shot from it.I think he's talking about the case of using sabots. My muzzy is .50 cal, but the bullets are .458 cal. There were sabots for .452 cal, and I'd imagine you could probably find some to run even small diameter bullets.I'm surprised it doesnt say the projectile size instead of muzzleloader size. Kind of ambiguous.How it is ambiguous? The side of the barrel will show the bore size. If it is .45 or larger it is legal for elk.
Rereading it, you are right. I was thinking of projectile size and sabots.