Post by: jmscon on May 11, 2020, 08:15:11 PM
Going to be in every herd in WA pretty soon!
Post by: gonehuntin68 on May 11, 2020, 08:22:38 PM
Post by: slim9300 on May 11, 2020, 09:50:05 PM
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Post by: BA Mongor on May 12, 2020, 08:14:36 AM
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
Post by: bornhunter on May 12, 2020, 08:20:20 AM
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
Sad but true. Have put several down in my area so would not suffer anymore.
Post by: Pegasus on May 12, 2020, 08:22:33 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on May 12, 2020, 08:23:56 AM
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
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Their summer range can overlap, and some west side elk could migrate to the East in the summer, or late fall carrying the hoof rot with them.
Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 08:46:19 AM
False. There are multiple locations with hoof rot in WA and OR where the elk never come close to overlapping. How do you explain the Blue Mountains having confirmed cases of hoof rot?...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
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Their summer range can overlap, and some west side elk could migrate to the East in the summer, or late fall carrying the hoof rot with them.
A buddy of mine that is more involved in this research than anyone else I know, feels like it’s due to elk interacting with bovines. And the mutation of bacteria spread from cattle to elk. As you should know, elk are basically cows (their closest living relative). Elk are much closer to the biology of a bovine than a deer for example.
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Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 08:55:21 AM
It was sarcasm. See my post above.
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
I have hunted Western WA elk for 23 years. I am well aware of the progression. 20 years ago I was chasing elk right across the river from the football field in Pe Ell that had multiple with hoof rot and bad limps. Thankfully this condition is regional on the Westside and is not evenly distributed. It must be due to the relatively tiny range of coastal elk (which supports my buddy’s theory of bovine interaction). In the very large area I have hunted for the last 15 years, I have not witnessed a single elk affected by hoof rot. My partner and I have killed a pile of them, and I have watched hundreds of elk.
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Post by: bornhunter on May 12, 2020, 08:58:31 AM
It was sarcasm. See my post above.
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
I have hunted Western WA elk for 23 years. I am well aware of the progression. 20 years ago I was chasing elk right across the river from the football field in Pe Ell that had multiple with hoof rot and bad limps. Thankfully this condition is regional on the Westside and is not evenly distributed. It must be due to the relatively tiny range of coastal elk (which supports my buddy’s theory of bovine interaction). In the very large area I have hunted for the last 15 years, I have not witnessed a single elk affected by hoof rot. My partner and I have killed a pile of them, and I have watched hundreds of elk.
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The herd in my neighborhood are all sick. 25 to 30.
Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 08:59:12 AM
Any cows in their home range?It was sarcasm. See my post above.
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
I have hunted Western WA elk for 23 years. I am well aware of the progression. 20 years ago I was chasing elk right across the river from the football field in Pe Ell that had multiple with hoof rot and bad limps. Thankfully this condition is regional on the Westside and is not evenly distributed. It must be due to the relatively tiny range of coastal elk (which supports my buddy’s theory of bovine interaction). In the very large area I have hunted for the last 15 years, I have not witnessed a single elk affected by hoof rot. My partner and I have killed a pile of them, and I have watched hundreds of elk.
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The herd in my neighborhood are all sick. 25 to 30.
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Post by: jstone on May 12, 2020, 09:00:31 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on May 12, 2020, 09:01:49 AM
Post by: bornhunter on May 12, 2020, 09:02:09 AM
Any cows in their home range?It was sarcasm. See my post above.
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
I have hunted Western WA elk for 23 years. I am well aware of the progression. 20 years ago I was chasing elk right across the river from the football field in Pe Ell that had multiple with hoof rot and bad limps. Thankfully this condition is regional on the Westside and is not evenly distributed. It must be due to the relatively tiny range of coastal elk (which supports my buddy’s theory of bovine interaction). In the very large area I have hunted for the last 15 years, I have not witnessed a single elk affected by hoof rot. My partner and I have killed a pile of them, and I have watched hundreds of elk.
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The herd in my neighborhood are all sick. 25 to 30.
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Yes, many.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on May 12, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 09:11:55 AM
Is there private timber companies in the blue mountains that spray?I have seen no evidence of this.
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Post by: BA Mongor on May 12, 2020, 09:14:31 AM
Your buddy's theory may have some merit, and it may not. It's just another WAG into what may be a possible contributing factor to the disease as a whole. We just don't know, but at least we're making strides to find a possible cure. Maybe 15-20 years late, but at least something is finally being done to solve the mystery.
But, to eliminate any possible contributing factors, such as the use of chemicals in the forest industry is ridiculous at best, even if you have a friend in the know. The fact is, the wide use of chemicals in forest management should be drastically curtailed, along with a long list of other items that we currently use in today's society. But because it's easy and quick with instant results, and proved "Safe" for use, we will continue to make and use them.
Also of note, over the past century there is an even longer list of items that were once deemed "Safe" that are no longer manufactured or used because they proved to be highly dangerous....
But hopefully, all we have to do is just eliminate the elk from interacting with cows and this will run it's course....
Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 09:18:20 AM
Slim 9300 is there any idea how the cows got it? Or where it came from in the bovine world?My understanding is that cows have always gotten it over the decades, and it’s relatively simple to treat them when they show the signs. At the same time, it’s not logistically possible to treat elk for obvious reasons.
It’s just a bacteria cows can pickup on their hooves from walking around, and just like people, I’m sure most cattle have immunity to the common bacteria they encounter. One could see how elk don’t have the same immunities.
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Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Sorry man. Elk are my favorite animal, so I feel your pain. I live to hunt them.Any cows in their home range?It was sarcasm. See my post above.
...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Is this statement a fact Slim?
Or are you just being sarcastic? I'm assuming sarcastic. The fact that it's over on the east side is extremely saddening and the effects of this disease on the herds will be devastating for decades to come. Me personally, I've dealt with it for over 20-years now with my local herds here on the coast and have had to put down enough animals versus watching them being eaten alive or starving. Either way, it's truly heartbreaking.
Is it chemicals from the timber companies? Maybe...
Is it a disease that formed naturally? Maybe....
Is it a disease that came about because of a weakened immune system? Maybe....
Is it a combination of all of these things and other factors that we're not aware? Maybe....And in my opinion, more than likely.
I do know that it's impossible to eradicate and as of right now, incurable! Unless we plan on randomly slaughtering herds. And they tried that, and it didn't work. The large herds that were so common here in SW WA have been decimated and unless some miracle occurs in the near future, the east herds will see the same fate. :twocents:
I have hunted Western WA elk for 23 years. I am well aware of the progression. 20 years ago I was chasing elk right across the river from the football field in Pe Ell that had multiple with hoof rot and bad limps. Thankfully this condition is regional on the Westside and is not evenly distributed. It must be due to the relatively tiny range of coastal elk (which supports my buddy’s theory of bovine interaction). In the very large area I have hunted for the last 15 years, I have not witnessed a single elk affected by hoof rot. My partner and I have killed a pile of them, and I have watched hundreds of elk.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The herd in my neighborhood are all sick. 25 to 30.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, many.
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Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 09:23:30 AM
Was there hoof rot before Helens blew?How would this impact the Blue Mountains herd or the Eastern OR herds (unless your claim is that the ash somehow spread the bacteria).
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Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 09:25:12 AM
Slim,Should the farming industry be forced to stop using Round Up?
Your buddy's theory may have some merit, and it may not. It's just another WAG into what may be a possible contributing factor to the disease as a whole. We just don't know, but at least we're making strides to find a possible cure. Maybe 15-20 years late, but at least something is finally being done to solve the mystery.
But, to eliminate any possible contributing factors, such as the use of chemicals in the forest industry is ridiculous at best, even if you have a friend in the know. The fact is, the wide use of chemicals in forest management should be drastically curtailed, along with a long list of other items that we currently use in today's society. But because it's easy and quick with instant results, and proved "Safe" for use, we will continue to make and use them.
Also of note, over the past century there is an even longer list of items that were once deemed "Safe" that are no longer manufactured or used because they proved to be highly dangerous....
But hopefully, all we have to do is just eliminate the elk from interacting with cows and this will run it's course....
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Post by: gonehuntin68 on May 12, 2020, 04:57:31 PM
Post by: Special T on May 12, 2020, 05:49:47 PM
Post by: slim9300 on May 12, 2020, 06:06:59 PM
Can they tranquilize an elk with hoof rot and treat it how they treat cows to see if it works? Not sure how that would help?My understanding is they can if it’s caught early enough, but I can’t validate that. Bacteria should be easy to kill directly. But of course it’s not practical or possible for large numbers.
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Post by: 1Guy on May 14, 2020, 08:05:32 AM
Post by: scoutdog346 on May 19, 2020, 10:58:56 AM
Post by: 444Marlin on May 19, 2020, 08:54:46 PM
I just figured it was a fungus like we get on our toenails???
Here's a brief summary from WDFW: https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/diseases/elk-hoof
I first saw an elk with it in Klickitat Co about 2008, but I didn't know what we were looking at, and didn't know enough to even report it. This article makes it sound like it wasn't confirmed until 2018 in that area.
Post by: Don_D on May 20, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
They have a map of the reports generated over the last few years that some might find interesting.
https://wdfw.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=8dce45e29c8b43b8bf93cd20c523ca31 (https://wdfw.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=8dce45e29c8b43b8bf93cd20c523ca31)
WSU's College of Veterinary Medicine has begun their research as well which certainly sounds promising. Updates can be found on their site or you can subscribe to their mailing list also.
https://vmp.vetmed.wsu.edu/research/elk-hoof-disease/updates (https://vmp.vetmed.wsu.edu/research/elk-hoof-disease/updates)
My guess is that something has to be affecting the immune systems of the elk in WA. Elk have always grazed areas cattle frequent so what's changed? At any rate, I'm just glad to see some research finally being done that might provide some answers even if they are hard ones to swallow. It's pretty heart breaking seeing these animals suffer like that. Not to mention the affect it is having on hunting opportunities.
Post by: bbarnes on May 20, 2020, 09:08:44 PM
Post by: Don_D on June 04, 2020, 10:07:30 AM
Research Update #6
June 2, 2020
If you’ve been following elk hoof disease, you probably know that sporadic cases of limping elk in
southwest Washington were first reported to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW)
during the late 1990s to early 2000s. Then the disease broke out most notably in 2008, not too far from
where it was first observed.
Over the past decade, elk in the Mount St. Helen’s area have been hit hard by the disease and are the
primary concern. But recent disease surveillance indicates that there is more to the story. A second
concern is now arising, detection of elk hoof disease over a broader geographic range.
In 2018, when the WSU College of Veterinary Medicine took the lead on elk hoof disease research, the
disease was generally thought of as a very significant, yet local issue, centered in the Mount St. Helen’s
area. But the disease had also been detected in several counties in western Washington, and also by the
Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife (ODFW) in northern Oregon.
As part of our investigations, we wanted to determine the distribution of the disease. Were there elk
in other areas affected by the disease that were going unreported? Was the disease spreading? These
questions are important to address to understand the disease currently, as well as gain insights into its
past and future.
We collaborated with WDFW and ODFW to collect hoof samples from elk. We also partnered with Idaho
Department of Fish and Game (IDFG) and California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) to collect
hooves from normal elk to use for comparison with the diseased hooves.
To our surprise, in addition to receiving normal hooves from each of the four states, we also received
abnormal hooves that tested positive for elk hoof disease. These findings greatly expand the geographic
area in which the disease is known to occur. They also challenge some of our assumptions and raise more
questions about the disease.
One of the biggest questions is whether these detections are just sporadic cases that have been
occurring for a number of years without advancing to outbreaks, or even being noticed. Or, on the other
hand, are these new introductions of the disease that might lead to outbreaks in the future, similar to
what happened in southwest Washington? By comparing and contrasting the situation in southwest
Washington with other areas, we hope to learn more about factors that contribute to an outbreak
occurring. This information could help clarify causes that can then be addressed through management
actions.
Another question is whether these new detections represent spread from areas where the disease is
established in elk herds, or if the disease is emerging independently in each new location. Management
response could differ if the disease was spread by natural movement of elk and human movement of elk
carcasses (or other infectious material) versus if, for example, disease spillover from domestic species was repeatedly occurring.
Unfortunately, over the past two years we have learned that elk hoof disease is not only a local issue,
but also a regional issue encompassing the Pacific West. While the highest prevalence of disease still
occurs in areas of southwest Washington, it is unknown what will happen in other areas where the disease
occurs. Fortunately, we have still not detected the disease in wildlife species other than elk. But these
new detections underscore the importance of continuing to work with state management agencies to
conduct disease surveillance and monitoring.
Map of elk hoof disease cases reported on the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife website in April 2018. Red dots are positive cases and yellow are negative. Cases from Oregon are not shown.
Cases of elk hoof disease as of May 2020. Red dots indicate location of positive cases, and red shading indicates counties where the disease has been detected. Up-to-date maps are accessible on our website. Data presented is collected in collaboration with Washington, Oregon, and California Departments of Fish and Wildlife, and with Idaho Department of Fish and Game.
Post by: Special T on June 04, 2020, 11:40:43 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on June 04, 2020, 02:22:49 PM
False. There are multiple locations with hoof rot in WA and OR where the elk never come close to overlapping. How do you explain the Blue Mountains having confirmed cases of hoof rot?...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
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Their summer range can overlap, and some west side elk could migrate to the East in the summer, or late fall carrying the hoof rot with them.
A buddy of mine that is more involved in this research than anyone else I know, feels like it’s due to elk interacting with bovines. And the mutation of bacteria spread from cattle to elk. As you should know, elk are basically cows (their closest living relative). Elk are much closer to the biology of a bovine than a deer for example.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I find it unlikely that, that scenario is anything more than just a small part of the equation. Maybe it does come from cattle or goats. But the elk in western Washington have mingled with farm animals for over a 100 years. Why did it just start popping up 20 or so years ago. About the time timber companies started nuking clear cuts with pesticides and herbicides. Those may just be a part of the equation directly and indirectly too. The chemicals cant be good and they kill the browse that elk need to get their copper and selenium to keep their immune system strong. Personally I think the spraying is the largest factor. For multiple reasons.
Post by: slim9300 on June 05, 2020, 10:45:06 AM
Again. How does this explain hoof rot spreading to locations that do not spray, such as Eastern OR and Idaho?False. There are multiple locations with hoof rot in WA and OR where the elk never come close to overlapping. How do you explain the Blue Mountains having confirmed cases of hoof rot?...but it’s the timber companies and their chemicals!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Their summer range can overlap, and some west side elk could migrate to the East in the summer, or late fall carrying the hoof rot with them.
A buddy of mine that is more involved in this research than anyone else I know, feels like it’s due to elk interacting with bovines. And the mutation of bacteria spread from cattle to elk. As you should know, elk are basically cows (their closest living relative). Elk are much closer to the biology of a bovine than a deer for example.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I find it unlikely that, that scenario is anything more than just a small part of the equation. Maybe it does come from cattle or goats. But the elk in western Washington have mingled with farm animals for over a 100 years. Why did it just start popping up 20 or so years ago. About the time timber companies started nuking clear cuts with pesticides and herbicides. Those may just be a part of the equation directly and indirectly too. The chemicals cant be good and they kill the browse that elk need to get their copper and selenium to keep their immune system strong. Personally I think the spraying is the largest factor. For multiple reasons.
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Post by: slim9300 on June 05, 2020, 10:45:58 AM
I would not be surprised to learn that IF spraying was the culprit it is not the direct cause but more of an unintended consequence. Would it be that large of a mental jump to assume that the reduced variety and quality of forage made elk more susceptible to hoof rot because of some Kind of mineral deficiency? Unlike the old days of burning slash and the abundance of feed afterwards for several years they now are almost devoid of the grasses elk love. When I have hunted the SW I was amazed at how clean the clear cuts and reprod was. they were easy to walk through in comparison to the ones up here in the NW corner of the state.Again. How does this explain hoof rot spreading to locations that do not spray, such as Eastern OR and Idaho?
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Post by: Special T on June 05, 2020, 02:08:46 PM
I would not be surprised to learn that IF spraying was the culprit it is not the direct cause but more of an unintended consequence. Would it be that large of a mental jump to assume that the reduced variety and quality of forage made elk more susceptible to hoof rot because of some Kind of mineral deficiency? Unlike the old days of burning slash and the abundance of feed afterwards for several years they now are almost devoid of the grasses elk love. When I have hunted the SW I was amazed at how clean the clear cuts and reprod was. they were easy to walk through in comparison to the ones up here in the NW corner of the state.Again. How does this explain hoof rot spreading to locations that do not spray, such as Eastern OR and Idaho?
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Well spraying isnt the main cause in my hypothesis, it's some kind of deficiency.
Since I am unaware as to where in these other places the elk were found limping I cant really say. It is odd that they are showing up in areas the 1 have a drier climate, and 2 dont spray. It is possible that because the conditions are different that it wont spread as far or fast because of the localized conditions, but we dont know.
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