Post by: heavy hauler on April 14, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Post by: stumprat on April 14, 2009, 09:16:54 PM
Post by: coyotemadness on April 14, 2009, 09:41:23 PM
Post by: JoshT on April 15, 2009, 07:10:06 AM
Don't get me wrong... I love hunting dogs as much as the next guy, usually more... but it's because I love it so much that I give them a break durring rearing season... then get back after them come August.
Post by: deaddog on April 15, 2009, 08:15:58 AM
Post by: tlbradford on April 15, 2009, 08:34:42 AM
I give them a rest mostly this time of year as well. Shooting a few will not affect the population. If you let them in close you can tell if it is a wet bitch by the sagging belly and distended teets. If you do shoot a wet bitch I encourage you to cut open the fallopian tubes, count the bumps (which will tell you how many pups she dropped) backtrack to the den (which should be real close), and dig out and kill the pups. This is where having a shotgun with #6 shot helps. When I helped cattle ranchers in central WA, I hunted all year. Shoot enough females March through July and you will notice a decline in the population. However, the ones you are killing are usually not the coyotes that are causing damage. To target the "trouble makers" you need to hunt right next to the feed lots or birthing areas.
Post by: JoshT on April 15, 2009, 08:42:32 AM
You can do damage to an area... I've done it... and it took a long time for it to come back. I'm not trying to preach to anyone on this subject... and for some folks there's good reason to hammer on the coyotes this time of year. But, to do it on public land... away from ranches and farms... with solely the intent of getting some killing in... seems a bit selfish to me. I'm not immune from it... I used to do it... and honestly I don't look down on those who do. But it ain't for me... and I encourage folks not to do it...
Post by: telof latzi on April 15, 2009, 10:15:43 AM
I'm not trying to preach to anyone on this subject...
:liar:
Can anyone tell me when in history ANYONE has been worried about endangering the population of coyotes? They live EVERYWHERE, they scavenge like crazy, and they reproduce plenty. There's a reason they are open all year. The coyote population is in no real danger.
Post by: JoshT on April 15, 2009, 10:34:55 AM
Post by: deaddog on April 15, 2009, 10:57:40 AM
Shoot'em up then... if that's how you feel. Hey, they're just dogs... they don't deserve any respect... right?I think you took that out of context josh, a least I hope so. :chuckle: I love dog hunting as do many and I do respect them as I do any animal I hunt, and I have not heard one person say anything that would suggest they dont, at least on this thread. I respect your position here and would hope you could respect others as well as no one has broken any laws or ethics as far as hunting goes.
Post by: JoshT on April 15, 2009, 11:25:55 AM
I read a study once that indicated you could kill 70% of the population year after year and have no ill effects on the overall number of coyotes in an area... but my personal experience confirm that is the case. I know I've over-hunted areas... and the population still hasn't rebounded... even after a couple of years. Some folks think that's a good thing... I don't.
Also, with the decreased opportunities to hunt other species... due soley to the WDFW and Indian follies... the coyote has become the go to species for an increasingly large number of outdoorsmen... so I think some sort of concession should be made by those same hunters.
I know, I know... kill a coyote this time of year, and it saves a fawn or two. That argument can be made... and is probably valid in some respect or another. To me personally... the life of one doesn't have greater worth than the other. I suppose if I had a ranch, or a "quality deer management" area... I'd feel different. But, I don't... that's why I limit myself... everyone else can do as they see fit, but I'll encourage anyone who'll listen to take it easy on them this time of year... that's all.
Post by: deaddog on April 15, 2009, 11:46:50 AM
Post by: JoshT on April 15, 2009, 11:52:12 AM
Post by: Kain on April 15, 2009, 12:45:45 PM
Post by: jdb on April 15, 2009, 01:14:42 PM
Post by: tlbradford on April 15, 2009, 01:16:05 PM
Im pretty sure mange is passed on to pups and they dont really have much of a chance either way. Please correct me if Im wrong on this. I have heard that as long as you dont shoot at them they dont get educated to calling. Anyways I wont care if you keep hunting them through the spring its a personal choice.
Mange will infect the living space of the coyote, especially a den. If a coyote that is not infected rubs up against the mange parasite it will most likely be infected as well.
You will educate coyotes by calling them and taking pictures. Anytime you have a prey or vocalization sound that the coyote expects to find food or another coyote, and it turns out to be a human, you have taught them something. They will be a little more wary when hearing that sound again. It is very debateable on how much this will effect them in the long term. You have to think that for every prey sound that turns out to be a human, that they hear 20-50 prey sounds that are actually food. My belief is that it depends on each individual coyotes natural tendancies to be bold or cautious. I don't think you can make a blanket statement and say that all coyotes will be more wary when they are called and associate that sound with a human. That is just my opinion, since I have encountered every type of behavior, from both highly pressured coyotes and those that hardly ever encounter a human.
I read a study once that indicated you could kill 70% of the population year after year and have no ill effects on the overall number of coyotes in an area... but my personal experience confirm that is the case. I know I've over-hunted areas... and the population still hasn't rebounded... even after a couple of years. Some folks think that's a good thing... I don't.
You may be giving yourself a little too much credit here. There might be several factors that come into play besides over hunting that may give you false conclusions. They prey species may have decreased during this time, disease may have set in, maybe you just didn't see as many coyotes but they were still there and less vocal, their might have been something that affected pup survival or the litter size in that area... There are probably too many factors involved to really draw the correct conclusion, and more than likely it is a combination of several things.
I agree with your basic philosophy though, give them a rest if you want to have more to call in the winter. Of course, I will probably shoot a couple that respond to my turkey calling and if I get bored in the middle of summer I may get out a couple times too.
Post by: JoshT on April 15, 2009, 01:22:49 PM
I don't think anyone will dissagree though, that killing a couple of dogs with pups in the den will do significant damage to that area's crop for the year... it's like killing 5-10 with one round.
Post by: Kain on April 15, 2009, 03:14:37 PM
Good points there. I think you cold probably get away with taking a picture or two without the coyote "seeing you as a human". They will more likely get weary when they dont see anything and run off or get your scent and scram. My camo is pretty good and I have coyotes, bobcats and deer stare right at me not know what I was and lots of times not even know I was there. Im sure coyotes see a lot of different things when the respond to prey distress sounds, like you said. They see bears, cougars, bobcats, other coyotes, birds of prey and others. Most of these they dont get their share or will have to fight for it or scraps. I dont think calling for coyotes, and then letting them go, would do much harm regarding making coyotes call shy. But like you said it would really depend on the coyote and the other environmental conditions. I was just throwing out a suggestion that allows you to get all the excitment of calling and hunting without the risk of killing females with pups in the den.
Again good points.
Post by: deaddog on April 15, 2009, 03:23:25 PM
Usually are...:tup: :chuckle:
Post by: furbearer365 on April 15, 2009, 05:09:24 PM
Post by: lamar_hunter on April 15, 2009, 08:50:22 PM
Post by: shoot-em-dead on April 15, 2009, 09:08:45 PM
Post by: btlsoom on April 15, 2009, 09:14:31 PM
Randy
Post by: heavy hauler on April 16, 2009, 05:36:20 PM
Post by: deaddog on April 21, 2009, 07:46:22 AM