Post by: RobinHoodlum on September 17, 2020, 02:24:13 PM
I would advise interested hunters to view the webinar, decide for yourselves what your position is, and make your voice heard.
Post by: Platensek-po on September 17, 2020, 02:27:05 PM
Post by: HillHound on September 17, 2020, 02:42:14 PM
Post by: jstone on September 17, 2020, 02:42:30 PM
I saw NO grouse. Did they get Decimated from the fire 5 years ago?
Post by: HillHound on September 17, 2020, 03:05:44 PM
Post by: bobcat on September 17, 2020, 03:18:49 PM
Post by: fly-by on September 17, 2020, 03:20:08 PM
Post by: ThurstonCokid on September 17, 2020, 03:27:07 PM
I think what would help more than anything is to stop spraying the clearcuts with herbicides.I think this would help a number of things...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Limhangerslayer on September 17, 2020, 03:31:30 PM
Post by: Alan K on September 17, 2020, 04:13:34 PM
I'm not sure I believe populations are down, because if they were, why the increase to a daily bag limit of 4 a few years back? Unless the game department is just inept...
Populations can swing rapidly from year to year depending on the weather in the spring and chick survival. From what I've seen, I'd say that this year at least in SW WA the survival is a 6 on a scale of 1 being almost no survival and 10 being basically everything made it.
Back on topic, it's disappointing when we hear of the voluntary data we as hunters provide being used to trim seasons, but theoretically it's to help numbers. I don't think skewing things by sorting which birds to submit is a good idea for proper management. :dunno:
:twocents:
Post by: packmule on September 17, 2020, 04:27:23 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2020, 04:28:10 PM
Post by: RobinHoodlum on September 17, 2020, 06:10:58 PM
They didn't go into detail on the spring hooter season. While I generally support expanded opportunity, this idea seems questionable. I'm concerned that if hunters encounter females, they'll shoot them - some unintentionally, others not giving a damn. Then, you've lost your brood hen and any young that might otherwise be produced.
Lastly, blind support of a comprehensive restriction because they used data is bad thinking. Data can also be misused and I am trying to make the case that this is a prime example. Trying to extrapolate data from one small part of the state without considering decreasing effort and/or access doesn't fly with me.
Anyhow, good discussion and thanks for engaging!
Post by: BLDtraLR on September 17, 2020, 06:57:57 PM
Post by: Hillbilly Zen on September 17, 2020, 08:05:46 PM
Post by: jrebel on September 17, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 17, 2020, 08:37:49 PM
Post by: Special T on September 17, 2020, 08:49:21 PM
Post by: packmule on September 17, 2020, 09:19:35 PM
I also work in the woods and have been hunting NW WA for nearly 30 years. As others have said, grouse numbers don't appear to be in a downward slide (on the West side, at least). Hunter effort probably is, and we all know that access definitely is. Spring weather is the greatest influence on productivity. In my opinion, fall weather has an effect on harvest rates. Long, hot, dry falls are no bueno! Both are highly cyclical.
They didn't go into detail on the spring hooter season. While I generally support expanded opportunity, this idea seems questionable. I'm concerned that if hunters encounter females, they'll shoot them - some unintentionally, others not giving a damn. Then, you've lost your brood hen and any young that might otherwise be produced.
Lastly, blind support of a comprehensive restriction because they used data is bad thinking. Data can also be misused and I am trying to make the case that this is a prime example. Trying to extrapolate data from one small part of the state without considering decreasing effort and/or access doesn't fly with me.
Anyhow, good discussion and thanks for engaging!
It is a good discussion, and a good thread. I should have added a bit more information to my original post, I’m not blindly supporting this because they used data. I am an avid grouse hunter, in early September it’s very common to encounter family groups which make easy pickings. Dispersal of family groups typically begins in mid September and often takes several weeks. It’s far less common to encounter family groups after late September. I don’t know, but suspect, that this is the reason states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Maine don’t open their seasons until late September.
Post by: predatorpro on September 17, 2020, 10:04:25 PM
Post by: Limhangerslayer on September 17, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
all in all your thought is good. But don't you think hunting pressure has a lot to do with it ñI also work in the woods and have been hunting NW WA for nearly 30 years. As others have said, grouse numbers don't appear to be in a downward slide (on the West side, at least). Hunter effort probably is, and we all know that access definitely is. Spring weather is the greatest influence on productivity. In my opinion, fall weather has an effect on harvest rates. Long, hot, dry falls are no bueno! Both are highly cyclical.
They didn't go into detail on the spring hooter season. While I generally support expanded opportunity, this idea seems questionable. I'm concerned that if hunters encounter females, they'll shoot them - some unintentionally, others not giving a damn. Then, you've lost your brood hen and any young that might otherwise be produced.
Lastly, blind support of a comprehensive restriction because they used data is bad thinking. Data can also be misused and I am trying to make the case that this is a prime example. Trying to extrapolate data from one small part of the state without considering decreasing effort and/or access doesn't fly with me.
Anyhow, good discussion and thanks for engaging!
It is a good discussion, and a good thread. I should have added a bit more information to my original post, I’m not blindly supporting this because they used data. I am an avid grouse hunter, in early September it’s very common to encounter family groups which make easy pickings. Dispersal of family groups typically begins in mid September and often takes several weeks. It’s far less common to encounter family groups after late September. I don’t know, but suspect, that this is the reason states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Maine don’t open their seasons until late September.
Post by: packmule on September 18, 2020, 05:34:39 AM
I think as hunters we need to recognize that in some cases management actions are required to protect a valuable resource. Wyoming Fish and Game routinely decreases tag allocations and shortens seasons in units following a bad winter when big game animals are hit hard. When the population rebounds they increase opportunity again. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of many aspects of WDFW management of fish and wildlife. But in this case, shortening a 4 month season by 2 weeks seems like a small price for hunters to pay to potentially see increases in grouse populations. I agree with what many have said, in many years we have plenty of grouse in this state. But I’m not going to ding WDFW on this one when they appear to be making an informed management decision that aligns with what other states have also done.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 18, 2020, 05:41:04 AM
Post by: packmule on September 18, 2020, 06:33:46 AM
Don't even mention WY fish and game and WDFW in the same sentence. One has better game management technologies and actually uses scientific data while the other has no idea. WDFW is not the same ball park as Wyoming fish and game.
Agreed. My point was that WGF makes management decisions all the time which I think hunters accept because they recognize that’s what’s best for game populations in that year. WDFW has bungled so many things up that many hunters blindly oppose all potential management actions now due to distrust. For this specific topic I’m not sure that’s warranted.
Post by: AspenBud on November 11, 2020, 06:37:22 AM
I don’t think they get a good idea of what is going on with those barrels at all. The vast majority of grouse shot in this state are opportunistic shots taken during the modern rifle seasons. They are camp food and I’d be surprised if even 5% are represented in those barrels.
Post by: Norman89 on November 11, 2020, 07:09:05 AM
Post by: Axle on November 11, 2020, 07:40:29 AM
For what it's worth my :twocents: you want higher grouse numbers? Be active in predator management. Grouse are an easy meal for coyote,bobcat,or cougar. All of which we can hunt, bobcats can be trapped. A unprotected nest of eggs is easy pickings for skunk, raccoon and possum which all can be trapped. It's another reason to get afield and spend time in the woods and since we can only run cage traps legally in our state many old time trappers gave it up when the rules changed and there are far less people involved in lowering the carrying capacity of the land on predators. Think about it as every predator you remove could possibly save between 1-20 grouse if I'm being optimistic. Then wdfw shouldn't feel the need to stick there nose into seasons since their laws are the ones that created what seems to be a plethora of predation problems across our state....but this is just my opinion
And ravens make a huge impact on their numbers too.
Getting rid of a percentage of ravens might be the best start.
Post by: Bucks2Ducks on November 11, 2020, 08:30:59 AM
Post by: Smokepole on December 17, 2020, 07:13:00 AM
If they want to increase grouse numbers they should focus on better habitat creation (more logging) and shorten up the modern rifle seasons.
I don’t think they get a good idea of what is going on with those barrels at all. The vast majority of grouse shot in this state are opportunistic shots taken during the modern rifle seasons. They are camp food and I’d be surprised if even 5% are represented in those barrels.
Going to shotgun only like other upland birds would make sense to me.
Post by: 2MANY on December 17, 2020, 07:15:38 AM
Post by: Stein on December 17, 2020, 08:06:35 AM
Post by: callturner on December 17, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
If they want to increase grouse numbers they should focus on better habitat creation (more logging) and shorten up the modern rifle seasons.I got a kick out of the barrel placement. The barrel was placed entering a road - area that had been closed to all hunting since the hound season was closed for big game. What a joke.
I don’t think they get a good idea of what is going on with those barrels at all. The vast majority of grouse shot in this state are opportunistic shots taken during the modern rifle seasons. They are camp food and I’d be surprised if even 5% are represented in those barrels.
Post by: KP-Skagit on December 17, 2020, 08:18:54 AM
Like many others here I have never seen any real variability in grouse populations. Every year they are somewhere to be found.
Post by: Stein on December 17, 2020, 08:31:31 AM
Some states even put the information out there in a transparent manner so everyone can see what they are doing and what the current and historical situation is.
https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/grouse/reports.html
I did see a WDFW report on blues that started with the phrase "Although populations in Washington have not been adequately monitored" followed by assumptions the numbers have been on a decline.
Post by: Goshawk on February 20, 2021, 09:16:20 PM
I think what would help more than anything is to stop spraying the clearcuts with herbicides.
:yeah: Grouse in my area are an endangered species compared to just 10 years ago.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 21, 2021, 05:51:28 AM
Post by: Tracker0721 on February 21, 2021, 07:21:52 AM
If they’re willing to have folks study owls, woodpeckers, and other endangered animals they could certainly hire bird watchers to go help get grouse numbers. I’d volunteer for spring. Give everyone a free OnX membership and have em go find drum beating and later send updates through the year of all grouse sightings. For GMU 101, I’m pro pushing the season back.
Post by: Alan K on February 21, 2021, 08:19:36 AM
I did see a WDFW report on blues that started with the phrase "Although populations in Washington have not been adequately monitored" followed by assumptions the numbers have been on a decline.
And yet they increased the bag limit from 3 to 4. Just another example of WDFW giving us more 'opportunity ' at the expense of the wildlife. Opportunity to reach the bottom of the toilet bowl faster than circling it isn't what sportsmen want. We want properly managed populations (predators being the most agregiously mismanaged) so that the 'opportunity' can be had without being detrimental to the sustainability of our wildlife.
Post by: MtnMuley on February 21, 2021, 08:21:09 AM
Secondly, if they think pushing the season back a couple weeks is a good idea, then why did they up the limit to 4 in the first place a few years ago? In theory, it's great of a guy goes out and shoots a couple blues, passes up a couple more, shoots a ruffled, passes up another blue, then shoots a spruce to fill his daily bag limit. Face the facts, that thing isn't happening. 95% of the hunters are killing the first 4 legal birds they see. I'd bet a high wager that many fill 4 day limits with the same species as well. A lot of areas here you basically are hunting one species of grouse with the occasional chance at the others.
Predation kills big numbers of grouse as is it's very evident by the constant piles of feathers one encounters on spring/summer hikes. As skyval mentioned, usually seeing hawks is a good sign the grouse population is abundant in the area. Habitat loss here in NCW is by far the major contributing factor in our grouse populations. From the Tripod Fire in 07 to the Carlton and Tunk Complex fires in 14/15, the vast majority of habitat is gone. Even from the 07 fire, the berries and shrubbery still aren't back. This seems to be lumping grouse hunters "closer" together for the most part.
Even with the arguments I've read, I see no valid factual reason in my eyes to push the season dates back. If they're really worried, drop the limit back to 3. Can be done statewide or in certain areas. I know many of people that love camping over here in grouse country labor day weekend and that would surely be a pisser if they had that taken away from them amongst everything else that's been taken from us.
Post by: boneaddict on February 21, 2021, 08:25:42 AM
Post by: hunter399 on February 21, 2021, 08:47:54 AM
"Time to Shorten the season" just makes me mad as old yeller right before they shot him.
Did like the idea of youth season right first two weeks,I could stand behind that.
Maybe just set the bag limit back to three and see if they don't level back out. :dunno:
Hunters do love opportunity ,with some opportunities comes with consequences. I could think of more than one proposal that falls in that category. WDFW also loves to give opportunity it falls in line with greed and pocket filling.
Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.
Let's ask ourselves why.
Why did they raise the limit a few years ago
Why would we have a spring season when population is declining.
Why should our seasons get shorter after these greed filled "mistakes " happen.
Maybe they should just stay with seasons and bag limits that have worked for the past years and call it a day.
Post by: Smokepole on February 21, 2021, 09:06:02 AM
For starters, I don't believe for a second that WDFW has the slightest clue on actual grouse numbers throughout any part of the state. Basing any credible info off of the wing barrel data is laughable. Of the hundreds of grouse I've killed, I've never took the time to drop any wings in the barrel. Most times they're processed up in the mountains anyways.
Secondly, if they think pushing the season back a couple weeks is a good idea, then why did they up the limit to 4 in the first place a few years ago? In theory, it's great of a guy goes out and shoots a couple blues, passes up a couple more, shoots a ruffled, passes up another blue, then shoots a spruce to fill his daily bag limit. Face the facts, that thing isn't happening. 95% of the hunters are killing the first 4 legal birds they see. I'd bet a high wager that many fill 4 day limits with the same species as well. A lot of areas here you basically are hunting one species of grouse with the occasional chance at the others.
Predation kills big numbers of grouse as is it's very evident by the constant piles of feathers one encounters on spring/summer hikes. As skyval mentioned, usually seeing hawks is a good sign the grouse population is abundant in the area. Habitat loss here in NCW is by far the major contributing factor in our grouse populations. From the Tripod Fire in 07 to the Carlton and Tunk Complex fires in 14/15, the vast majority of habitat is gone. Even from the 07 fire, the berries and shrubbery still aren't back. This seems to be lumping grouse hunters "closer" together for the most part.
Even with the arguments I've read, I see no valid factual reason in my eyes to push the season dates back. If they're really worried, drop the limit back to 3. Can be done statewide or in certain areas. I know many of people that love camping over here in grouse country labor day weekend and that would surely be a pisser if they had that taken away from them amongst everything else that's been taken from us.
:yeah:
Mountain Muley, I've had the same observations. Not only are the grouse confined to creek bottoms or springs, since the fires of 2015 -- the predators have figured it out, too. Add our abnormally dry summers, and you got a real problem. Countless number of old-growth "wolf trees" on Okanogan ridgetops have perished from drought and borer insects -- the same Douglas firs from which I've taken limits of blue grouse.
Most of the deer are in the bottoms right now, digging and nibbling all the twigs from the shrubbery. In the past two years near the Tunk fire, I've witnessed only a modest increase in grouse numbers, and a slight improvement in habitat conditions. I hope it's a trend!
Post by: MtnMuley on February 21, 2021, 10:57:00 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 21, 2021, 11:43:38 AM
Post by: jrebel on February 21, 2021, 01:15:12 PM
Post by: Special T on February 21, 2021, 05:26:40 PM
:dunno:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 21, 2021, 06:44:26 PM
Post by: hunter399 on February 21, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
I know there are several in my group that the grouse hunt is a yearly hunt beginning on the opener and lasting 4 or so days. I recently turned in a survey in the mail asking for harvest numbers on forest grouse and small game animals. I am happy to turn the survey in honestly.My son got the same survey haven't sent it back yet.
Not really sure if I should ,the way that they figure populations off of harvest reports. Even with good reporting I've seen them ignore the writing on the wall.
With that said.
Maybe they should leave there desk and try there hand at hunting ,put some boot leather down and do some real surveys.
Post by: RobinHoodlum on April 21, 2021, 06:39:42 AM
Normally better at finding this info on the DFW website, but not this morning.
Post by: bowhunterty on April 21, 2021, 06:54:29 AM
Post by: Dave Workman on July 01, 2021, 06:21:46 AM
If they want to increase grouse numbers they should focus on better habitat creation (more logging) and shorten up the modern rifle seasons.
I don’t think they get a good idea of what is going on with those barrels at all. The vast majority of grouse shot in this state are opportunistic shots taken during the modern rifle seasons. They are camp food and I’d be surprised if even 5% are represented in those barrels.
Shorten the modern rifle seasons? Are you serious? Modern rifle seasons for deer and elk are short enough. If you don't think potting a grouse during deer/elk seasons is a good idea, don't do it. :tup:
Post by: Dave Workman on July 01, 2021, 06:24:07 AM
For what it's worth my :twocents: you want higher grouse numbers? Be active in predator management. Grouse are an easy meal for coyote,bobcat,or cougar. All of which we can hunt, bobcats can be trapped. A unprotected nest of eggs is easy pickings for skunk, raccoon and possum which all can be trapped. It's another reason to get afield and spend time in the woods and since we can only run cage traps legally in our state many old time trappers gave it up when the rules changed and there are far less people involved in lowering the carrying capacity of the land on predators. Think about it as every predator you remove could possibly save between 1-20 grouse if I'm being optimistic. Then wdfw shouldn't feel the need to stick there nose into seasons since their laws are the ones that created what seems to be a plethora of predation problems across our state....but this is just my opinion
There are folks who shoot every coyote they see.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 01, 2021, 09:41:52 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 01, 2021, 09:47:39 AM
Some areas have pretty good population,other areas they have been depleted to almost nothing.
So I'm kinda on the fence with the season pushed back.
But in the end don't really mind it I guess.
And trying to find a spot to hunt on Labor day weekend is not exactly easy sometimes.
Everybody shooting in and from roads on a busy weekend where most dirt roads look like a highway.
Just seems like an accident waiting to happen.