Post by: mdbuck5x5 on September 29, 2020, 06:28:19 AM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395771733968383/permalink/2705017123043831/
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 29, 2020, 06:55:40 AM
Post by: Sandberm on September 29, 2020, 06:56:09 AM
Not very ethical if you ask me.
Post by: Timberstalker on September 29, 2020, 06:57:59 AM
Honestly? I feel that putting him down was probably the ethical move.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 29, 2020, 07:02:19 AM
Post by: Sandberm on September 29, 2020, 07:41:09 AM
Those people went through all the work to save that elk and then someone just comes up and butchers it like its a steer. Dont we hold elk in a little higher regard then that?
Knowing of the folks involved in this incident,( I do not know the shooter) and being that they were willing to go to the extra work to try and help this elk recover over night, should the benefit of the doubt not be given that it was the right thing to do to let this one go to fight another day?
AT THE VERY LEAST, the guy who shot it should have consulted with the folks who worked so hard to free that elk from the ditch before he "harvested" it and selfishly took it for himself.
Post by: Stein on September 29, 2020, 07:45:15 AM
Nobody questions the guy as Safeway, asking him if he "really needs the meat" or whatever. It's hypocritical to say the least unless those critical are eating more ethically sourced meat.
All that said, it doesn't help hunter's image no matter how hypocritical, perception is reality. Separating the fb commenters from the people that rescued the elk, I would have considered that they did a bunch of work and cared for an animal that my actions then undid.
Post by: bigdub257 on September 29, 2020, 07:53:14 AM
From looking at the photos that's probably the only way that guy would ever be able to kill an elk with a bow.
So much for the other people trying to help a critter only to have it executed right in front of them.
Post by: Sandberm on September 29, 2020, 08:10:50 AM
All I can see when I click on the op's link is 5 pictures of the elk in the ditch and it being brought out and then sitting there in addition all I can read is Maryjos description of what happened.
Are there comments? More pictures? Whats the vibe?
Post by: elkrack on September 29, 2020, 08:27:50 AM
Post by: SeatoSummit88 on September 29, 2020, 08:30:20 AM
I do think we can agree that this shows how tough these animals are!
Post by: cbond3318 on September 29, 2020, 08:31:48 AM
Some people just operate on a lower watt bulb.
Post by: ThurstonCokid on September 29, 2020, 08:48:42 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Badhabit on September 29, 2020, 09:09:20 AM
Post by: salt n sage90 on September 29, 2020, 09:21:12 AM
If this fellow had waited for it to die and then applied for a salvage tag...that would have been AOK in my book.
Teaching his children this behavior...ouch
On a good note this shows that hunters are many times the biggest animal lovers of all. Working tirelessly to save a animal in distress doesn't sound bloodthirsty to me.
Just my thoughts though.
Post by: vandeman17 on September 30, 2020, 11:43:19 AM
http://www.ifiberone.com/columbia_basin/several-franklin-county-residents-fuming-after-killing-of-rescued-elk/article_8b8f3d08-033c-11eb-a16b-131f81509ab3.html
Post by: Russ McDonald on September 30, 2020, 11:56:49 AM
saw this article. One part I did find interesting was "Bow hunters are required to wear hunter orange or pink, neither of the people involved were wearing hunting garments based on the photos provided."They are incorrect on the hunter orange or pink. That is only if an archery season overlaps a general (not special permit or master hunter) rifle season deer or elk.
http://www.ifiberone.com/columbia_basin/several-franklin-county-residents-fuming-after-killing-of-rescued-elk/article_8b8f3d08-033c-11eb-a16b-131f81509ab3.html
Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk
Post by: JakeLand on September 30, 2020, 12:13:40 PM
If he did trespass to get the bull it will be confiscated and a ticket handed out if a warden is brought into the picture
That’s a piss poor judgment
And good on the people that at least attempted to help the bull
Post by: Mfowl on September 30, 2020, 12:16:52 PM
Like in the comments on FB, I wonder what the meat will be like on that bull. He had to be heavily stressed besides exhausted.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 30, 2020, 12:17:51 PM
Post by: bracer40 on September 30, 2020, 12:35:17 PM
Post by: 92xj on September 30, 2020, 12:39:03 PM
Post by: Sandberm on September 30, 2020, 12:45:21 PM
Wouldn’t the killing of this bull have required a draw tag to be legal (no comment on the poor judgement in killing it)? Maybe they get nailed for that?
Pretty sure I know about where this happened. If I had to guess, it happened just east of Hwy 395, north of Sagemoor road, thats unit 381 Kahlotus. Even if it was west of Hwy 395 that would be unit 379 Ringold. Each unit is any elk, Sept 7-19.
If I run into the right guy today i will try to get some details.
Post by: GASoline71 on September 30, 2020, 12:50:38 PM
saw this article. One part I did find interesting was "Bow hunters are required to wear hunter orange or pink, neither of the people involved were wearing hunting garments based on the photos provided."
http://www.ifiberone.com/columbia_basin/several-franklin-county-residents-fuming-after-killing-of-rescued-elk/article_8b8f3d08-033c-11eb-a16b-131f81509ab3.html
That news story has a lot of false info in it. Also calls the elk a "stag"... :chuckle:
Ethical or not, it brings hunters into a poor light when stories like that are written by a "journalist" that hasn't got a clue.
Gary
Post by: Platensek-po on September 30, 2020, 01:08:53 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 30, 2020, 02:13:20 PM
Let them have their bull, sporting or not. Hopefully, they'll make good use of all of it. As hunters and gun owners concerned about our privileges and rights, we have enough people to fight without turning in on ourselves.
Post by: CoryTDF on September 30, 2020, 03:05:40 PM
Post by: 92xj on September 30, 2020, 03:12:27 PM
Post by: Buckmark on September 30, 2020, 03:21:35 PM
Have not seen the question asked yet so: Did the guy watch them pull the bull out and then go up and shoot it or did he happen upon it in the hour after the farmers left? I feel like that makes a difference.From the FB post it says a family member of an irrigation worker posted it and the person who killed it (says they also were an irrigation employee) saw the post and went to the location. By the photos it was a awhile after they got the bull out that it was killed (suns up and still bright in the photo with the guys that pulled it out, and when its being dressed it is dusk and that photo shows 7:02pm).
*
I have a question, i thought canal roads were off limits? Only for canal workers doing work related stuff?
Post by: CoryTDF on September 30, 2020, 03:32:40 PM
He saw the farmers family/friends post on Facebook that they just rescued an elk out of the canal. He then drove to the location and shot the elk.
Man, that is a tough one. I certainly would not have gotten a thrill out of that hunt. Hopefully it happened because the family desperately needed the meat.
Different circumstances but similar in a way. My daughter had the "Any Deer" tag last year. We got a call from a friend that he bedded down a nice 2Pt that had already been shot by somebody. He said that it was in bad shape and not going anywhere. My daughter and I hiked into the spot he had seen it lay down and when it stood up you could see that it had been shot through the "elbow" likely the day before as the season was only open for 2 days at that point. Anyway, my daughter took one look at the buck and said to me "Daddy, I have to put him out of his misery." She took aim and put him down. Not the hunt we wanted but we used the animal and it was put out of it's misery and we gave him a fast death compared to the slow painful one he was sure to have.
Sometimes the "hunt" is not what you would want. I don't think this is going to be a case of a guy needed the meat so badly that he was able to look past the circumstance but in the end he had a tag and he filled it. Legal? Probably but certainly not a story that will get much admiration around the campfires of the hunting community.
Post by: huntnfmly on September 30, 2020, 04:09:37 PM
It's great to read stories about hunters/people rescuing wildlife. Killing wildlife legally during a hunting season is done many different ways. Some hunt private fields and are more harvesting than hunting and have great success rates. Some drive the roads with somewhat lower success. Some prefer to put down some boot leather in the mountains and have somewhat less success still. I have a hard time feeling bad toward someone who legally takes an animal on public land, regardless of the circumstance. Would I have made the same decision? I would hope not given the same circumstance. Is an animal that's stupid enough to get caught in an irrigation ditch likely to survive long anyway? Probably not.Well said
Let them have their bull, sporting or not. Hopefully, they'll make good use of all of it. As hunters and gun owners concerned about our privileges and rights, we have enough people to fight without turning in on ourselves.
Post by: elkrack on September 30, 2020, 05:05:17 PM
He saw the farmers family/friends post on Facebook that they just rescued an elk out of the canal. He then drove to the location and shot the elk.
Man, that is a tough one. I certainly would not have gotten a thrill out of that hunt. Hopefully it happened because the family desperately needed the meat.
Different circumstances but similar in a way. My daughter had the "Any Deer" tag last year. We got a call from a friend that he bedded down a nice 2Pt that had already been shot by somebody. He said that it was in bad shape and not going anywhere. My daughter and I hiked into the spot he had seen it lay down and when it stood up you could see that it had been shot through the "elbow" likely the day before as the season was only open for 2 days at that point. Anyway, my daughter took one look at the buck and said to me "Daddy, I have to put him out of his misery." She took aim and put him down. Not the hunt we wanted but we used the animal and it was put out of it's misery and we gave him a fast death compared to the slow painful one he was sure to have.
Sometimes the "hunt" is not what you would want. I don't think this is going to be a case of a guy needed the meat so badly that he was able to look past the circumstance but in the end he had a tag and he filled it. Legal? Probably but certainly not a story that will get much admiration around the campfires of the hunting community.
We call those mercy kills. We’ve filled rifle cow tags on calves that were gut shot one had a leg blown off. Your daughter absolutely made the right decision :tup:
Post by: Apples on September 30, 2020, 06:16:58 PM
Post by: Sandberm on September 30, 2020, 06:45:42 PM
It's great to read stories about hunters/people rescuing wildlife. Killing wildlife legally during a hunting season is done many different ways. Some hunt private fields and are more harvesting than hunting and have great success rates. Some drive the roads with somewhat lower success. Some prefer to put down some boot leather in the mountains and have somewhat less success still. I have a hard time feeling bad toward someone who legally takes an animal on public land, regardless of the circumstance. Would I have made the same decision? I would hope not given the same circumstance. Is an animal that's stupid enough to get caught in an irrigation ditch likely to survive long anyway? Probably not.
Let them have their bull, sporting or not. Hopefully, they'll make good use of all of it. As hunters and gun owners concerned about our privileges and rights, we have enough people to fight without turning in on ourselves.
Here we have Pianoman making the argument that if its legal its ok. Don't we hold ourselves in higher regard then what Pianoman is saying?
Post by: Sandberm on September 30, 2020, 06:55:50 PM
Post by: bigdub257 on September 30, 2020, 07:00:36 PM
It's great to read stories about hunters/people rescuing wildlife. Killing wildlife legally during a hunting season is done many different ways. Some hunt private fields and are more harvesting than hunting and have great success rates. Some drive the roads with somewhat lower success. Some prefer to put down some boot leather in the mountains and have somewhat less success still. I have a hard time feeling bad toward someone who legally takes an animal on public land, regardless of the circumstance. Would I have made the same decision? I would hope not given the same circumstance. Is an animal that's stupid enough to get caught in an irrigation ditch likely to survive long anyway? Probably not.
Let them have their bull, sporting or not. Hopefully, they'll make good use of all of it. As hunters and gun owners concerned about our privileges and rights, we have enough people to fight without turning in on ourselves.
Here we have Pianoman making the argument that if its legal its ok. Don't we hold ourselves in higher regard then what Pianoman is saying?
:yeah:
Post by: swanderek on September 30, 2020, 07:48:26 PM
Great job showing the future generation.
Post by: bigdub257 on September 30, 2020, 08:46:54 PM
Post by: Sutherland on September 30, 2020, 08:54:03 PM
Post by: Bango skank on September 30, 2020, 08:56:30 PM
All I know is if I did that (which I wouldn't), I'm pretty sure..... no, I know that I would be disowned by all of my immediate hunting buddies and probably all of my friends and family. Elk are one of the toughest animals on this earth and for anyone to suggest that it probably would have died anyway and needed to be put out of it's misery is sorely mistaken. It at least deserved a chance after the efforts of the people who put in the effort to try to save it from being "stupid" for getting stuck in a man made water source. They get stuck in all sorts of man made obstacles ( fences, bailing twine, mud bogs, broken ice, etc.) and most of the general public, including sportsmen typically try to help them out of the predicament knowing they can possibly pursue them on another day in a "fair chase" situation. What kind of a sicko enjoys walking up to a defenseless wild animal and executes it just because they have a tag and technically it's "legal" (aside from trespassing on private property and using their occupational right to drive a ditch road that is posted). I sure hope this loser is going to suffer the embarrassment and consequences of his action for quite a while and is labeled appropriately Ever heard the term "slob hunter"? He's the definition. Unfortunately he has children to teach this kind of behavior to. Nothing surprises me anymore, including some of the posts on this subject.
Yearling cow elk was tangled up in a barbed wire fence near my place this morning and got cut out to run off. Was probably there for hours.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on September 30, 2020, 10:46:18 PM
There are a lot of assumptions to the article and bad feelings weighed against the guy.
Another plausible scenario is that a guy gets a call about a grievously injured elk and he goes out to humanely End the suffering, harvest, and salvage whatever possible. From the posts I have read Here, all are basically throwing the guy and daughter (?) under the bus as completely amoral trophy hunters more concerned with killing a set of horns than an actual hunt with no prof other than the assumptions in the article.
Years ago I had a class called Crucial Conversations that delved into the psychology of different biases that lead to misunderstanding and assumption of bad intentions by people with no proof support the feelings. Great class that more people should take, it really shows how misunderstandings can build a narrative on nothing more than a few misconstrued facts or actions.
Just my 0.02
Post by: hunterofelk on October 01, 2020, 06:48:01 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 01, 2020, 07:08:22 AM
It is always hard to say what is the truth anymore without both sides and a healthy amount of skepticism and common sense to make a judgement. Looking at one side of the story, we can ascribe all sorts of ethical and moral deficiencies to the person who killed the bull. If the story and assumption(?) that he read the Facebook post and decided to kill the bull for bragging rights (or whatever unethical/perverse reason) is true, the guy is a turd sack that gives hunters a black eye in the view of people reading the story.
There are a lot of assumptions to the article and bad feelings weighed against the guy.
Another plausible scenario is that a guy gets a call about a grievously injured elk and he goes out to humanely End the suffering, harvest, and salvage whatever possible. From the posts I have read Here, all are basically throwing the guy and daughter (?) under the bus as completely amoral trophy hunters more concerned with killing a set of horns than an actual hunt with no prof other than the assumptions in the article.
Years ago I had a class called Crucial Conversations that delved into the psychology of different biases that lead to misunderstanding and assumption of bad intentions by people with no proof support the feelings. Great class that more people should take, it really shows how misunderstandings can build a narrative on nothing more than a few misconstrued facts or actions.
Just my 0.02
Well Stated! and agreed.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 01, 2020, 09:02:06 AM
It's great to read stories about hunters/people rescuing wildlife. Killing wildlife legally during a hunting season is done many different ways. Some hunt private fields and are more harvesting than hunting and have great success rates. Some drive the roads with somewhat lower success. Some prefer to put down some boot leather in the mountains and have somewhat less success still. I have a hard time feeling bad toward someone who legally takes an animal on public land, regardless of the circumstance. Would I have made the same decision? I would hope not given the same circumstance. Is an animal that's stupid enough to get caught in an irrigation ditch likely to survive long anyway? Probably not.
Let them have their bull, sporting or not. Hopefully, they'll make good use of all of it. As hunters and gun owners concerned about our privileges and rights, we have enough people to fight without turning in on ourselves.
Here we have Pianoman making the argument that if its legal its ok. Don't we hold ourselves in higher regard then what Pianoman is saying?
That's not what I said. I said I wouldn't do it. And I said that we have enough enemies without turning on ourselves.
Post by: huntnfmly on October 01, 2020, 09:24:31 AM
It is always hard to say what is the truth anymore without both sides and a healthy amount of skepticism and common sense to make a judgement. Looking at one side of the story, we can ascribe all sorts of ethical and moral deficiencies to the person who killed the bull. If the story and assumption(?) that he read the Facebook post and decided to kill the bull for bragging rights (or whatever unethical/perverse reason) is true, the guy is a turd sack that gives hunters a black eye in the view of people reading the story.Another well said post and agreed with.
There are a lot of assumptions to the article and bad feelings weighed against the guy.
Another plausible scenario is that a guy gets a call about a grievously injured elk and he goes out to humanely End the suffering, harvest, and salvage whatever possible. From the posts I have read Here, all are basically throwing the guy and daughter (?) under the bus as completely amoral trophy hunters more concerned with killing a set of horns than an actual hunt with no prof other than the assumptions in the article.
Years ago I had a class called Crucial Conversations that delved into the psychology of different biases that lead to misunderstanding and assumption of bad intentions by people with no proof support the feelings. Great class that more people should take, it really shows how misunderstandings can build a narrative on nothing more than a few misconstrued facts or actions.
Just my 0.02
To the people who think he was wrong what is the time span from when the elk was helped out would it be ok to hunt him again?
If there was time left in the season.
1 day ? 2 days? 1 week? Or is this bull off limits forever in your mind?
Sounds like alot of people are jumping on another Hunter who legally took an animal because he seen it on Facebook and had access to the property without knowing all the details.
Hunters against hunters we really are our worst enemy
Post by: B4noon on October 01, 2020, 09:48:00 AM
It is always hard to say what is the truth anymore without both sides and a healthy amount of skepticism and common sense to make a judgement. Looking at one side of the story, we can ascribe all sorts of ethical and moral deficiencies to the person who killed the bull. If the story and assumption(?) that he read the Facebook post and decided to kill the bull for bragging rights (or whatever unethical/perverse reason) is true, the guy is a turd sack that gives hunters a black eye in the view of people reading the story. Wasn’t hunting by my definition and is exactly what gives ethical fair chase hunting a bad name you can make the argument that he legally filled his tag but I can’t define it as hunting legal or not I don’t personally agree with the decision or method chosen to fill his tag and certainly won’t define it as hunting as he did not huntAnother well said post and agreed with.
There are a lot of assumptions to the article and bad feelings weighed against the guy.
Another plausible scenario is that a guy gets a call about a grievously injured elk and he goes out to humanely End the suffering, harvest, and salvage whatever possible. From the posts I have read Here, all are basically throwing the guy and daughter (?) under the bus as completely amoral trophy hunters more concerned with killing a set of horns than an actual hunt with no prof other than the assumptions in the article.
Years ago I had a class called Crucial Conversations that delved into the psychology of different biases that lead to misunderstanding and assumption of bad intentions by people with no proof support the feelings. Great class that more people should take, it really shows how misunderstandings can build a narrative on nothing more than a few misconstrued facts or actions.
Just my 0.02
To the people who think he was wrong what is the time span from when the elk was helped out would it be ok to hunt him again?
If there was time left in the season.
1 day ? 2 days? 1 week? Or is this bull off limits forever in your mind?
Sounds like alot of people are jumping on another Hunter who legally took an animal because he seen it on Facebook and had access to the property without knowing all the details.
Hunters against hunters we really are our worst enemy
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 01, 2020, 10:07:43 AM
Post by: Sandberm on October 01, 2020, 10:10:58 AM
To think that it is best to never criticize our own is ridiculous. All groups debate their actions amongst themselves. It doesnt show weakness but rather strength in caring about the direction of our particular group and its actions going forward.
Post by: salt n sage90 on October 01, 2020, 10:14:37 AM
"Needing the meat" isn't really a story I am gonna buy at this point, not when there are other ways to get food into your fancy truck.
As for how long to leave the elk to recover? Overnight at least or a day. Most of us have seen instances where these animals show their grit and will to survive long after a soft human would quit. Whether it running with a leg blown off, exhausted from wolves, hooves rotted off, etc. I think giving an animal the chance to get its breath and get to its feet isn't out of the question. Merely saying that it was dumb enough to fall in a ditch so it prolly wont make it long in the wild is harsh, if we used that same logic with people housing prices would be lower.
Personally if I saw an animal of that caliber on facebook (of which I do not partake) that needed to be dispatched I don't think I would get involved. Too high profile, call a LEO or have the landowner do it.
That being said using ones tag to put an animal out of its misery is a noble act.
Post by: B4noon on October 01, 2020, 10:23:38 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 01, 2020, 10:27:21 AM
And now we have the argument that we cannot criticize our own, which I NEVER agree with.:yeah: Ive tried to type the same idea a couple times but couldnt articulate well.
To think that it is best to never criticize our own is ridiculous. All groups debate their actions amongst themselves. It doesnt show weakness but rather strength in caring about the direction of our particular group and its actions going forward.
Post by: b0bbyg on October 01, 2020, 10:44:12 AM
Or, are we making all our judgements of folks based on personal opinions about right and wrong based on hypotheticals.
Discussion is good, helps us all learn. I just want to understand the context a little better.
Post by: Sandberm on October 01, 2020, 01:32:26 PM
I can reasonably guess where this happened as she and her husband own a little bit of land that they live on that borders an irrigation ditch, as well as the other participants in the rescue, are sons of farmers, or they themselves farm nearby.
I do not know the Irrigation district employee who shot the elk and cannot vouch for his character or lack thereof.
Water to irrigate the farms around here is delivered via a series of ditches and reservoirs that stretch from Grand Coulee Dam south to just North of Pasco . These ditches are either constructed of dirt, rock or in the case of where this happened apparently concrete. Google things like "Elk or Moose trapped in ditch in Pasco or Eltopia" etc, and you will see that this is an almost yearly occurrence that an animal gets trapped in one of these ditches lately. Outcomes are mixed. I've had two dogs drown in these ditches when they cannot climb back out. :'(
Roads run along these ditches. Irrigation district employees drive on these roads to deliver water to farmers who order it the day before. Farmers also use these roads to access fields/homes etc. The ditch and the road are BLM run. Thus in the pictures of the guy butchering the Elk, the animal is laying in this BLM road. This road is NOT for the publics use, but rather for the farmers who own or farm the farms that border it. However, bird/coyote hunters will drive these roads hunting. Sometimes the farmer cares and will run them off, other times they do not care. Quite often the hunters think they have a right to drive these roads to hunt because its BLM, maybe they do, but as soon as they take fives steps off the road they are on the farmers land.
From what I gather from the FB post, the rescuers called the Irrigation district to let them know of the elk stuck in the ditch. The elk can die in the ditch, get washed down and stuck in a pipe or block a grate. Thus the ditch might overflow and wash out the banks. So not only is it a case of feeling bad for the animal, but there is also the very real chance that there could be a failure in the ditch.
In the mean time , as farmers do, instead of waiting for someone else to do the job, and having equipment to perhaps get the job done, they get the elk out. Per the fb post, a district employee or employees show up after the rescue has been completed, says good job guys and thankyou for getting the elk out. All is good, the rescuers bring some hay and grain for the elk and plan how they will help the elk out overnight. Meanwhile, it sounds like if you read Maryjos fb post, the guy(s) who went to the rescue site who work for the irrigation district goes home, tells his wife or kids about the neat rescue, the people involved and where it happened. Then, the relative of the district employee, thinking this is a neat story, shares it on FB. "Evil Jim" :chuckle: who works for the irrigation district but is off work sees the post, loads his kid in his pickup, drives to the elk and shoots it from "4 feet away" on the last day of the season in his gym shorts, Saturday September 19.
What I do not know:
-Was any of the rescuers actually there when the elk got shot or did they show back up after it had been killed? It sounds like from the FB post that they were there to witness the kill as they report that the elk stood and was shot from a distance of 4'.
-Did the district relatives fb post go into any description of the circumstances of the elk ending up where it was? This is a moot point if the rescuers were there when he shot it as they would have told "jim" of the rescue and there intent to help the elk out overnight from coyotes.
-Did the district worker who shot the elk cross private land on a farmers road to access the elk or did he turn off the county road and wind his way to the elk on the BLM road?
-If the district employee who shot the elk was off work and used the BLM road, is he trespassing because he did not use the road in his work duties but rather as a private citizen like you and I
Like any court case that I have been a juror on, the lawyers will talk of "reasonable assumption".
If I find out more I will post.
Post by: hunter399 on October 01, 2020, 02:08:14 PM
Post by: b0bbyg on October 01, 2020, 05:10:42 PM
Since I was not there and don't know the area or players I'll just say I would have passed just to not be under that spotlight. If it was not legal I believe it is public enough the local LEO may get involved.
Post by: dilleytech on October 06, 2020, 11:27:15 AM
I feel bad for the people who put in the effort to get the bull out just to have someone else get all the benefits.But I think it’s safe to assume If your going to assume any thing At all that those people who killed it are bragging more about the 250# of awesome meat then some amazing elk hunt they had.