Post by: ronin026 on October 11, 2020, 09:32:12 PM
I spent most of the day scouting today, and spotted 4 different doe. 1 at a well traveled area at about 1100 feet, and 3 of them in a group at a relatively remote area of 2800 feet. No bucks unfortunately, but hopefully that'll change as the season progresses. Anyways I'll be camping relatively close to the location of the 3 doe I spotted, but the camp site is a bit higher in elevation, at just over 4000 feet. Of course with the season opening this weekend, I'm trying to make sure I'm putting my time in the best locations. I've only got 2 days more scouting available at best.
So the question I have is what is the highest elevation I should be scouting at in this area at this time of year? Again I understand there's no magic number but some general idea's would be helpful.
At 4200 feet in this area in 460 you start seeing small amounts of snow in the shaded areas, and I'm not sure is I should spend much time at these high elevations if dear aren't going to find much to eat up that high. Is there a method to the madness of what elevations black tail like to range in during this time of year? Are they tending to head up the mountains this time of year or down the mountain?
Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you
Post by: Wazntme on October 12, 2020, 12:19:20 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 12, 2020, 09:50:28 AM
Sounds like you're doing everything right. Everything I've seen, read, or heard ('cause I have no experience up that high) says that it takes a pretty major snow to push the deer down to lower elevations.... like two feet or more. The only Blacktail considered to be migratory are the alpine populations that move downhill to less extreme levels to winter over. I would say that the deer you're seeing at your elevations are there year round unless or until the snow forces them downhill. In general, BT are considered to be non-migratory. The biggest smartest bucks may move down for the rut or an extreme weather event then return to higher often snowy levels shortly thereafter.
Certainly, the deer at 1100 feet are there all year long. Finding the spots where the deer end up during the breeding season is the only thing you really care about, though some hunters work the migration trails the deer use to move downhill after a very heavy snow up high. An Oregon study on BT migrations showed that almost all the deer movement downhill happens in the dark, something like 90%. Finding and knowing the migration trails (which are apparently used every year) and locating heavy amounts of fresh sign allow you to follow the herd downhill till you find them. Finding a lot of rubs in an elevation tells you all you need to know about that spot. They are there during the rut.
At higher elevations, it is my understanding that by using the thermal cover/canopy of the forest to block snow, the deer are able to stay in areas you might believe they would vacate. Finding and hunting the biggest timber in a snow zone often puts you in a primary feeding area, where the deer eat the lichens that are blown off the massive trees and lays on the forest floor below them. The bigger the tree, the more food it produces, so old growth size trees are the target. Shed hunting these areas in the summer is a great way to scout for big bucks that winter at those levels. Quite obviously, a lot of scouting over many years is the only way to gain all this knowledge.
Lastly, figuring out when the snows historically fall at each elevation might give you a clue what to expect in the future. I would guess that late hunt in November would be more in question whether an area is huntable rather than the late-October general season. There are a couple forum members that are very successful at routinely bagging big bucks up high. Perhaps you'll get some better information from them.
This is all a roundabout way of saying, I don't really know the answer to your question. :dunno:
Post by: skagitsteel on October 12, 2020, 12:26:28 PM
I'm doing my first black tail hunt in 460 this year. Took some time reading through the threads that got references in them of "black tail tips" and "black tail." Appreciate all the great info provided there. Have a question on elevation though, and I'm sure it varies year to year and weather relating, but some guidance would be helpful.
I spent most of the day scouting today, and spotted 4 different doe. 1 at a well traveled area at about 1100 feet, and 3 of them in a group at a relatively remote area of 2800 feet. No bucks unfortunately, but hopefully that'll change as the season progresses. Anyways I'll be camping relatively close to the location of the 3 doe I spotted, but the camp site is a bit higher in elevation, at just over 4000 feet. Of course with the season opening this weekend, I'm trying to make sure I'm putting my time in the best locations. I've only got 2 days more scouting available at best.
So the question I have is what is the highest elevation I should be scouting at in this area at this time of year? Again I understand there's no magic number but some general idea's would be helpful.
At 4200 feet in this area in 460 you start seeing small amounts of snow in the shaded areas, and I'm not sure is I should spend much time at these high elevations if dear aren't going to find much to eat up that high. Is there a method to the madness of what elevations black tail like to range in during this time of year? Are they tending to head up the mountains this time of year or down the mountain?
Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you
I would not be too concerned about being at the 'right' elevation. Some bucks are bent to stay high and will stay there until the does leave or they are forced down by snow. Some bucks live their entire lives in the river bottom. By the last few days of the season you might have a buck at 1500', next day that same buck could be at 4500'. Focus your hunt on the areas on the mountain where you are finding the does, if you find a good group of does it is only a matter of time before they have a buck with them. if you can find some dark old growth near some of those does, that is a likely spot for a buck to turn up.
Post by: trophyhunt on October 12, 2020, 12:31:14 PM
Post by: slowhand on October 12, 2020, 01:11:41 PM
My advice, go hunt whitetails or muley's, they are much easier to hunt if you looking for something better than a 3 point. Big blacktails are the toughest animal to hunt in my opinion. Save yourself from years of torture and forget about mature blacktail! Ok, I'm only half way kidding, good luck!Honestly this isn't bad advice. Prep yourself. It takes serious determination to take a mature blacktail buck, Hell any blacktail buck.
Understand that you will not see a single animal for days at a time. Ghosts as soon as opening day arrives.
Best piece of advise I can give anyone looking to go for a blacktail buck comes from My Dad.
They believe in their camo more than just about any other animal I have hunted. They will freeze solid and not move a muscle, then hold their spot until you almost step on them. similar to hunting hand raised birds vs wild birds. Good Luck and I hope You bag a monster.
Post by: JakeLand on October 12, 2020, 02:45:51 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 12, 2020, 03:58:45 PM
Quote:
"They believe in their camo more than just about any other animal I have hunted. They will freeze solid and not move a muscle, then hold there spot until you almost step on them. similar to hunting hand raised birds vs wild birds. Good Luck and I hope You bag a monster."
That trait just blows my mind when I jump a buck that I've unknowingly approached while they just watched me till some magic line was crossed. It's hard to imagine how many BT bucks hunters miss as they work their way through the woods.
Post by: slowhand on October 12, 2020, 04:05:30 PM
I went out all day hunted hard and didn't "SEE" any deer, but they are there, Oh you can bet Your _ss they watched and just stood still.
Helps on the days with no action. Plenty of black tail deer in the woods. They are just very very good at their job of staying alive and out of sight. Sneaky little buggers.
Post by: ronin026 on October 12, 2020, 10:14:50 PM
My advice, go hunt whitetails or muley's, they are much easier to hunt if you looking for something better than a 3 point. Big blacktails are the toughest animal to hunt in my opinion. Save yourself from years of torture and forget about mature blacktail! Ok, I'm only half way kidding, good luck!
I appreciate the advice. I'm not really too concerned about size, I'll likely shoot at the first buck I see. Also I got a pass for Campbell tree farm in 460, and I've scouted it pretty frequently since September. Just picked up a game camera and set it up on Sunday at the location I spotted 3 Does earlier that afternoon. I'm pretty committed at this point to the black tail general. Perhaps late general I could fall back to white tail in a new area if no luck.
My game plan for 460 relies on the area I'm hunting being pretty remote. Which it is because you have to have access with a key to even enter the tree farm. Then it's another 45 mins on gravel roads with a high clearance 4x4 to get back to the area I'm planning on hunting. I'll be out there Thursday night setting up, Friday scouting and start early Sat morning. Plan is to try and pick up on where these Doe's have been and then do the following:
1) Hunt clear cuts first hour or so of daylight
2) Then walk and glass timber extremely slowly during the day, Wind in your face. 150-200' in max, look as far as you can see into timber
3) Mid day glass reprod 3-7 years. 3'-8' reprod.
4) Finish hunting clear cuts last hour of daylight
This is mostly info I've gained from the forums, but hopefully it works out for me.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 13, 2020, 06:04:33 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on October 13, 2020, 07:15:01 AM
Sounds like you are on the right track for sure, I was mostly kidding, stick with blacktail in the late fall, that is the best time to catch a big one being dumb. I liked tree stand hunting them mostly, you feel almost invisible from them, but keep very still and quiet even 10' off the ground. You will feel very accomplished when you succeed, good luck, I think you will tag one this year by the sounds of your determination.My advice, go hunt whitetails or muley's, they are much easier to hunt if you looking for something better than a 3 point. Big blacktails are the toughest animal to hunt in my opinion. Save yourself from years of torture and forget about mature blacktail! Ok, I'm only half way kidding, good luck!
I appreciate the advice. I'm not really too concerned about size, I'll likely shoot at the first buck I see. Also I got a pass for Campbell tree farm in 460, and I've scouted it pretty frequently since September. Just picked up a game camera and set it up on Sunday at the location I spotted 3 Does earlier that afternoon. I'm pretty committed at this point to the black tail general. Perhaps late general I could fall back to white tail in a new area if no luck.
My game plan for 460 relies on the area I'm hunting being pretty remote. Which it is because you have to have access with a key to even enter the tree farm. Then it's another 45 mins on gravel roads with a high clearance 4x4 to get back to the area I'm planning on hunting. I'll be out there Thursday night setting up, Friday scouting and start early Sat morning. Plan is to try and pick up on where these Doe's have been and then do the following:
1) Hunt clear cuts first hour or so of daylight
2) Then walk and glass timber extremely slowly during the day, Wind in your face. 150-200' in max, look as far as you can see into timber
3) Mid day glass reprod 3-7 years. 3'-8' reprod.
4) Finish hunting clear cuts last hour of daylight
This is mostly info I've gained from the forums, but hopefully it works out for me.
Post by: BigGoonTuna on October 13, 2020, 08:23:32 AM
That's one of the mind tricks I use to keep My head in the game.:yeah: my strategy as well. If you’re seeing sign, he’s probably watching you...
I went out all day hunted hard and didn't "SEE" any deer, but they are there, Oh you can bet Your _ss they watched and just stood still.
Helps on the days with no action. Plenty of black tail deer in the woods. They are just very very good at their job of staying alive and out of sight. Sneaky little buggers.
Post by: Special T on October 13, 2020, 11:23:55 AM
Read it!
Post by: fishnfur on October 13, 2020, 02:05:54 PM
My advice, go hunt whitetails or muley's, they are much easier to hunt if you looking for something better than a 3 point. Big blacktails are the toughest animal to hunt in my opinion. Save yourself from years of torture and forget about mature blacktail! Ok, I'm only half way kidding, good luck!
I appreciate the advice. I'm not really too concerned about size, I'll likely shoot at the first buck I see. Also I got a pass for Campbell tree farm in 460, and I've scouted it pretty frequently since September. Just picked up a game camera and set it up on Sunday at the location I spotted 3 Does earlier that afternoon. I'm pretty committed at this point to the black tail general. Perhaps late general I could fall back to white tail in a new area if no luck.
My game plan for 460 relies on the area I'm hunting being pretty remote. Which it is because you have to have access with a key to even enter the tree farm. Then it's another 45 mins on gravel roads with a high clearance 4x4 to get back to the area I'm planning on hunting. I'll be out there Thursday night setting up, Friday scouting and start early Sat morning. Plan is to try and pick up on where these Doe's have been and then do the following:
1) Hunt clear cuts first hour or so of daylight
2) Then walk and glass timber extremely slowly during the day, Wind in your face. 150-200' in max, look as far as you can see into timber
3) Mid day glass reprod 3-7 years. 3'-8' reprod.
4) Finish hunting clear cuts last hour of daylight
This is mostly info I've gained from the forums, but hopefully it works out for me.
Sounds like a very reasonable plan. Don't be afraid to sit on the reprod all morning. I typically expect to see a couple deer stand up between 10:30 and !:00 in the dog's hair. Normally though it's just doe, but you never know.
When in working in the timber, if there's a lot of undergrowth/brush (in bigger timber) I'd recommend concentrating your focus on 30 - 40 yards and closer. The deer will likely be bedded and you'll rarely see them till you get close. If you're in the deep and dark, then your plan is perfect. Glass through the close stuff to see what's out in the distance.
Don't overdo your scouting just before the opener. The deer that you know are there are not going anywhere. The more time you spend in the area, the more pressure you put on the deer, which causes them to go more nocturnal than they already were. Most tree stand hunters recommend no more than two or three sits in one spot before giving the area a break for a week or so. Your scent is on the ground, so the deer become aware of your constant pressure very quickly. The bucks won't be with the girls yet, though once in awhile, you find a buck chasing one as the first week of the season ends. Knowing where the doe hang out puts you in a great spot to re-visit them in the last few days of the month with the expectation that bucks might be swinging by to check on them. In the mean time, keep looking for buck sign (tracks, old rubs, etc.)
Over the years, I've decided that the number of deer you see is inversely proportional to the amount of time you're up and moving.
Move a lot - see few deer, move little or infrequently - see more deer. Sit more than stand, stand more than walk. Pay attention to every sound and investigate if unsure of the source. Don't be afraid to make a mistake. You will likely make many in the coming years. Learning from mistakes is what counts.
Good luck!
Post by: NiteHawk on October 13, 2020, 03:48:36 PM
Post by: WSU on October 13, 2020, 04:17:54 PM
Quote:
"They believe in their camo more than just about any other animal I have hunted. They will freeze solid and not move a muscle, then hold there spot until you almost step on them. similar to hunting hand raised birds vs wild birds. Good Luck and I hope You bag a monster."
That trait just blows my mind when I jump a buck that I've unknowingly approached while they just watched me till some magic line was crossed. It's hard to imagine how many BT bucks hunters miss as they work their way through the woods.
I shot the nicest BT buck I've ever shot last year. He was laying in his bed 70 yards away watching me. He was surrounded by chest high ferns and all I saw initially was his throat patch. It took me literally 3 or 4 minutes of walking in circles above him to get an angle that I could see to shoot him. I shot him in his bed and he watched me the entire time. I'm just lucky I saw the white patch that looked out of place in the dark timber.
Post by: fishnfur on October 13, 2020, 06:44:58 PM
A few years back, I remember coming upon what I thought was a buck sitting 20 yards above me in ferns on a hillside. I hid behind some small Hemlock and glassed it for almost 20 minutes watching for movement before decided to move laterally to get a shot. I found, to my chagrin, that it was a rusted piece of sheet metal that when viewed from below totally resembled a deer's body bedded in the ferns. I took the shot anyway and killed it.
Sorry for that crappy story, I couldn't resist. I really came back to the thread to recommend that you don't hunt way too hard early on. Spending all day in the woods over successive days makes the days get long pretty quickly. If you're not seeing deer or more importantly bucks, it's easy to get very frustrated. It takes a lot of faith to keep believing that there is such an animal as a Blacktail buck during your first few seasons. It is very easy to get burned out early in the season (and loose that desire to kill a buck) before the hunting gets really good. Save your intensity for the last few days of October and the four days in November, and you'll not get burned out in advance of the rut.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 13, 2020, 07:19:37 PM
Has anyone tried what I call combat hunting for them? Basically you go thru reprod that you can see good distances because of tree spacing not worrying about noise, stop every ten yards or until you hear them moving.
I did it once just to see what happened saw quite a few does that would jump up and stop to look back to see what I was (wind was in my favor), no bucks though.
Post by: Piscatory_5 on October 13, 2020, 09:37:45 PM
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Post by: fishnfur on October 13, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
Not to thread jack but.
Has anyone tried what I call combat hunting for them? Basically you go thru reprod that you can see good distances because of tree spacing not worrying about noise, stop every ten yards or until you hear them moving.
I did it once just to see what happened saw quite a few does that would jump up and stop to look back to see what I was (wind was in my favor), no bucks though.
I had the same thing happen when I was looking for the buck I shot last year. I kicked several doe out of their beds. Might be a worthwhile tactic when you're ready to move on to a different cut, though I'd hate to be the hunter that came in behind you unaware of your assault on the cut.
Post by: SeatoSummit88 on October 14, 2020, 08:52:48 AM
Post by: slowhand on October 14, 2020, 11:34:28 AM
This is exactly what My Dad has told me over and over. LOL
Quote:
"They believe in their camo more than just about any other animal I have hunted. They will freeze solid and not move a muscle, then hold there spot until you almost step on them. similar to hunting hand raised birds vs wild birds. Good Luck and I hope You bag a monster."
That trait just blows my mind when I jump a buck that I've unknowingly approached while they just watched me till some magic line was crossed. It's hard to imagine how many BT bucks hunters miss as they work their way through the woods.
I shot the nicest BT buck I've ever shot last year. He was laying in his bed 70 yards away watching me. He was surrounded by chest high ferns and all I saw initially was his throat patch. It took me literally 3 or 4 minutes of walking in circles above him to get an angle that I could see to shoot him. I shot him in his bed and he watched me the entire time. I'm just lucky I saw the white patch that looked out of place in the dark timber.
Well done on Your part.
I'll throw in another Blacktail Pro tip #4650. The last one about the camo is pro tip #1 Haha
As Your still hunting silently threw an area or on a trail stopping often to listen and look. Look behind You just as often. Sometimes You will catch a set of eyes or a head pop up to see if your gone. It works! They want to know if the danger is gone so they will sneak a peak. Don't worry they won't get up and run. They think they are invisable, most times they are.
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on October 14, 2020, 12:21:47 PM
Post by: screedler on October 14, 2020, 03:07:48 PM
Money tip right there slowhand. Whitetail story, but..... many, many moons ago on an elk hunt (had a deer tag also) outside of the tiny town of D______, Montana, I had an interesting phenomenon occur that I'll never forget. Packs on our back (heading in to a quasi wilderness area, about 1/2 way in to our destination roughly 2 miles up the trail), rifled shouldered, walking along a rare flat and fairly open area, late/mid morning..... "it" occurred. Cruising along the established trail, again... in a fairly open area (pretty wide flat, maybe 70-80 yards across) with just some scrub brush and scattered 3-4' saplings in it, something made me stop and turn around. There, not 30 yards behind me, was an absolute pig of a buck standing broadside in the trail (think non-typical, stupid wide, pig of a buck), giving me the stink eye. He was obviously bedded close to the trail, behind/in what I don't know, watched and let us pass and head up the trail before he stood up and headed out. Over the years, I've taken that well learned tip and used it over and over, for all forms of big game hunting. You know what, those sneaky suckers, blacktails in particular, will certainly stay put as you walk almost right by/over them. Look back often ;)
This is so true!!! First day ever hunting for me a few years ago I walked halfway down a few mile straightaway to a clearcut I was targeting and halfway down I decided to look back, and there was the first deer I ever saw while hunting. Still twilight so I couldn't see antlers or not... :bash: That haunts me to this day! If that was a buck... I had him in my dang crosshairs but couldn't see for sure if it was a legal buck so I just kept going.
Post by: Special T on October 15, 2020, 10:59:48 AM
Not to thread jack but.
Has anyone tried what I call combat hunting for them? Basically you go thru reprod that you can see good distances because of tree spacing not worrying about noise, stop every ten yards or until you hear them moving.
I did it once just to see what happened saw quite a few does that would jump up and stop to look back to see what I was (wind was in my favor), no bucks though.
Byod Iverson has a slightly different take on that called still hunting. you hike to the "hunting area" then move very slowly. take a step or 2 then look and glass around. Slow movements lots of looking, but only in prime area that has been previously scouted.
Post by: WSU on October 15, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
This is exactly what My Dad has told me over and over. LOL
Quote:
"They believe in their camo more than just about any other animal I have hunted. They will freeze solid and not move a muscle, then hold there spot until you almost step on them. similar to hunting hand raised birds vs wild birds. Good Luck and I hope You bag a monster."
That trait just blows my mind when I jump a buck that I've unknowingly approached while they just watched me till some magic line was crossed. It's hard to imagine how many BT bucks hunters miss as they work their way through the woods.
I shot the nicest BT buck I've ever shot last year. He was laying in his bed 70 yards away watching me. He was surrounded by chest high ferns and all I saw initially was his throat patch. It took me literally 3 or 4 minutes of walking in circles above him to get an angle that I could see to shoot him. I shot him in his bed and he watched me the entire time. I'm just lucky I saw the white patch that looked out of place in the dark timber.
Well done on Your part.
I'll throw in another Blacktail Pro tip #4650. The last one about the camo is pro tip #1 Haha
As Your still hunting silently threw an area or on a trail stopping often to listen and look. Look behind You just as often. Sometimes You will catch a set of eyes or a head pop up to see if your gone. It works! They want to know if the danger is gone so they will sneak a peak. Don't worry they won't get up and run. They think they are invisable, most times they are.
It was part luck. I was actually hunting through some timber a herd of elk had gone into during muzzy season. I had tags for both but was looking for the elk. I just happened upon the buck.
Post by: fishnfur on October 16, 2020, 08:19:49 AM
Post by: logola512c on October 17, 2020, 05:33:46 PM
Post by: fishnfur on October 17, 2020, 05:41:02 PM