Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: pastormike on October 21, 2020, 05:26:19 AM

Title: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: pastormike on October 21, 2020, 05:26:19 AM: What to do?
Last week we were told by a private landowner who participates with the written permission to hunt program that "we're all full this weekend, but if you come back next week you can hunt."
So, we saw deer there and scouted the place from 2 miles away and figured out what the deer are doing there. Main bedding and main escape route.
Came back all the way from Bremerton to past Moses Lake, met the man and signed up. Talked about what we knew so far, seemed like just small talk-being polite, etc...
As soon as we signed, he told us to hunt south of all the places we just talked about. 6 hours later he told us we could only there this morning and that other hunters "that signed up way before [me] were hunting Thursday and Friday." So we can't hunt then During our small talk I told him we had to go back Saturday cuz I'm a pastor and can't stay the weekend.

We are completely confused. What are the rules for the landowner? What is this mysterious "formal agreement between wdfw and the landowner?" Do they benefit fiscally just by signing people up?

Because of what he said, we have come back as soon, as we we're signed up, without actually saying it, we were told we can't hunt.
I'm a doctoral student and really hate having my time wasted --very frustrated. I really hope this day works out.

Oh by the way, there are no other hunters. I've been watching those deer since last week. None whatsoever. I know he is in the CRP program. Does he get money for opening up the land and signing hunters?
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Stein on October 21, 2020, 05:36:47 AM: I had a bad experience as well, was signed up for a certain weekend 6 months in advance and then called a month in advance to confirm and no bananas, they gave away my slot because they hadn't heard from me?

I know there are problems with MT as well, same kind of thing happens when landowners manage the permission system.

In both places, it's whatever rules the landowner wants to use, they can give permission to whoever they want and there is really no accountability. I pretty much gave up on those types of properties, I only use the FFTH or reservation properties as well as public.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: jagermiester on October 21, 2020, 06:15:27 AM: I don’t think you can do much it is probably his prerogative. Have you fully explained to him how his actions are affecting you guys though. At this point what do you have to loose. Put it all out on the table and help him see your side and ask him more about his side (and listen). You might come away feeling bad for him and what he’s up against or he might change his tune and allow you to hunt those bucks. Maybe start out with a bottle as a peace offering. Good luck I hope it works out for you, never know maybe you guys will come away with a friendship because of this :tup: :tup:
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 21, 2020, 06:26:42 AM: I may be wrong......but I believe they get paid something to put their land into this program. Then they can do whatever they want, and let no one hunt if they want to.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: outdooraddict on October 21, 2020, 06:53:37 AM: i have seen tons of issues with this system. i have seen the "we already gave out the permission to others" although what i later found out was that the "others" were just the local family members. super frustrating. but in the long run, they do pay the taxes on the land, and it is "their" land, and unfortunately, all they have to do is show proof to wdfw that they gave permission, doesn't matter who they gave it too. so basically your pretty much SOL.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Stein on October 21, 2020, 06:53:55 AM: They get paid a small amount. Under written permission, they control who hunts and can make any rules or limitations they want.

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Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: jagermiester on October 21, 2020, 07:18:00 AM: I lean more into the camp that most of these guys are salt of the earth people that would like to allow people to hunt their land.... They are not doing any of this for financial gain. These guys are extremely busy working their land (that they love) and they find themselves trying to manage who’s going on their land and when. Maybe more of a hinderance than anything. The first post started off with “What to do”

Don’t run into the rabbit hole that is this guy is trying to manipulate the system for his gain. It’s probably not true. You should keep a level head and talk with him and hopefully have a fun time hunting deer this week. :tup:
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: screedler on October 21, 2020, 07:34:19 AM: If I had a bait and switch like that pulled on me I wouldn't ever go back.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: teanawayslayer on October 21, 2020, 07:41:46 AM: Unfortunately he can do what he wants. It’s his ground. He probably does get something in return from wdfw. Dep tags being enrolled in there program. It sucks for you and others that have got “permission”. Like said above, I wouldn’t go back!
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: birddogdad on October 21, 2020, 07:45:11 AM: tuff situation but honestly, the land owner is in charge.. not sure what could be done. never had a positive experience in WA with this program, have pretty much written it off as state welfare for land owners so friends and family have private hunt access (from my experiences)… of course there are exceptions but...
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: ctwiggs1 on October 21, 2020, 08:44:52 AM: I've always avoided lands like that. Too many rules about what you can and can't do, too many opportunities for months of planning to go to waste, etc. I want high probability hunts - I want to know if I bust my butt I've got a good chance of getting into animals. Having my planning and hard work potentially go to waste because of someone else just doesn't appeal to me.

Public land is great, secured private land is even better if you get an opportunity.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: dvolmer on October 21, 2020, 09:46:23 AM: This is part of the program that is being highly over abused. The feel free to hunt program and the reservation to hunt program have been a success. But the "Hunt by Written Permission" program has turned into a major scam. One of my fishing partners is a fish biologist for WDFW. They share offices here in the Tri-Cities with the wardens and the animal biologists. He says that there is a lot of abuse by land owners on this issue. Yes, there are land owners that are doing the right thing and not abusing the system, but they are now the minority. Yes, the people do own the land and have the right to do what they want and let who they want access that land. But when our tax money and license fee money is paid to a land owner to allow others to hunt their land and they in turn don't let some form of the general public access, they are abusing the system. WDFW biologists are frustrated because they (WDFW hired personnel) are supplying the signs and actually posting the land owners property with the idea that it will provide a form of public access and then finding out the land owner is still only letting themselves, close family, and close friends hunt the land (the same people that were hunting the land before they enrolled in the program). They are using our resources (Money) to post their property and then get kick-backs from the states because they enrolled in the program with no intentions of letting anyone of the general public on the land. There needs to be some form of accountability on this program because it has turned into a major scam that we as hunters are paying for. Like I said, not all of the landowners in the program are abusing the program but it has turned into a thing were most are.

If they really want to have public hunters have access, but limit the over crowded issue, they should put their land in the reservation system. If they want to hunt the property themselves for the first weekend, they should black out those dates for themselves and friends and still have the rest of the general public get access through the reservation system. Then WDFW could see what bang they were getting for their (and ours) bucks spent on the program. As it is now, there is no accountability for the program and no way to monitor or measure the programs use.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: deereman on October 21, 2020, 10:05:31 AM: Mostly old retired farmers that still have their land in CRP. They are pretty desperate to get their land re-enrolled after their 10 year contract is up. Getting enrolled is based on a point system. You get points for land class, rainfall, plant diversity etc. putting your land in with the dept of wildlife programs will earn your some more points. This helps them so they keep their land in CRP. Otherwise they will lease it to the neighbor who will take out the grass and start farming Wheat again. Only the farms with the highest point score get to be in the CRP program. There is not an actual $ amount the farmer gets to enroll with the wildlife programs.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 21, 2020, 10:20:38 AM: Call the DFW and get in touch with the private lands coordinator (not sure if that's the title). I'd report him.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Sandberm on October 21, 2020, 10:25:13 AM: Pretty interesting posts from Deereman and Volmer to explain the system.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Katmai Guy on October 21, 2020, 10:27:19 AM: Quote from: pianoman9701 on October 21, 2020, 10:20:38 AM
Call the DFW and get in touch with the private lands coordinator (not sure if that's the title). I'd report him.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: jrebel on October 21, 2020, 10:33:27 AM: They should not be paid one penny unless they are in a feel free to hunt program.....PERIOD. If they are being paid with tax dollars, they should allow walk in access to anyone hunting the species of animal that are huntable at that time. Anything less is a complete abuse and waste of tax dollars. Even the reservation system can be abused and they landowners should not be paid for that system. Most reservation ground that is worth hunting on is filled by the same people annually and / or by family members. This should not be funded by tax dollars. Feel free to hunt is the only thing we as hunters should be paying for.

On a side note, Kansas pays landowners for feel free to hunt and it works great.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: deereman on October 21, 2020, 10:40:34 AM: I believe I get paid about $35/acre annually for my ground that is in the CRP program. I chose not to enroll in any of the wildlife programs because I would like to hunt my own ground. My problem is harvest doesn’t coincide with deer season so I usually end up missing out, by the time I am done with corn harvest, the season is over.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 21, 2020, 10:47:17 AM: Quote from: deereman on October 21, 2020, 10:40:34 AM
I believe I get paid about $35/acre annually for my ground that is in the CRP program. I chose not to enroll in any of the wildlife programs because I would like to hunt my own ground. My problem is harvest doesn’t coincide with deer season so I usually end up missing out, by the time I am done with corn harvest, the season is over.

We know you have a rifle in that harvester! :chuckle:
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: buckfvr on October 21, 2020, 11:10:58 AM: Quote from: outdooraddict on October 21, 2020, 06:53:37 AM
i have seen tons of issues with this system. i have seen the "we already gave out the permission to others" although what i later found out was that the "others" were just the local family members. super frustrating. but in the long run, they do pay the taxes on the land, and it is "their" land, and unfortunately, all they have to do is show proof to wdfw that they gave permission, doesn't matter who they gave it too. so basically your pretty much SOL.

Unfortunately, very common and nothing can be done about it that anyone is willing to pursue.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: KFhunter on October 21, 2020, 11:34:45 AM: Trying to keep up with who's hunting when, and where, and butthurt hunters?

Sounds great! Where do I sign up!

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Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: aaronoto on October 21, 2020, 11:37:29 AM: When the overwhelming feedback on the hunt by written permission program is negative, and it is, WDFW should evaluate whether it's even worth it. In my opinion the hunt by written permission should be done away with in favor of the hunt by reservation instead. If a landowner is not OK with that, than it's their right to not enroll in the program. On paper we'd lose more private property to hunt, but in reality, I don't think we really would because of the abuses within the hunt by written permission program.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: BigGoonTuna on October 21, 2020, 11:39:20 AM: Had a good and bad experience with this program, near asotin wildlife are. First area was great. Lady owned a few thousand acres, she would let a few people hunt her land at a time but have them go to different areas. Then she’d usually come out to camp at night and have a few beers with us. Don’t think that land is in the program any more, she sold most of it to WDFW. Kind of bittersweet, can go out there any time, but no more motorized access.

The other land owner was a tool. Owns a ton of land in different properties in the area. We were over there for muzzleloader deer that year, maybe saw a handful of people the whole time. Noticed his land was posted “hunting with written permission” and figured it’d be a slam dunk. Not so, gave us the old “my grandkids are going to come down for rifle season” excuse.

I do understand that it’s private property, but there should be some reasonable expectation of being granted permission to hunt land that’s enrolled in this program. It definitely needs reforming.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: outdooraddict on October 21, 2020, 01:50:32 PM: what everyone is misunderstanding is this....its not about the hunters or giving the hunters access.. it all boils down to money. wdfw pays the landowners a little money to enroll. they "give permission" although its to their own friends and family which is no different than prior to enrolling in the program. WDFW gets to advertise this "millions of acres of private land have been opened for access to the public", this equals more license sales, because people have the false sense of "lots of land to hunt". by eliminating the programs, wdfw cannot advertise the "millions of private acres for the public" thus resulting in less licenses sold. and ultimately wdfw loses money, the loss of money will instantly halt any progress to a better system. You gotta always remember.....it all comes down to the greedy green dollar...
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 21, 2020, 02:05:57 PM: So then WDFW is basically selling the wildlife?
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: dvolmer on October 21, 2020, 02:08:23 PM: Quote from: outdooraddict on October 21, 2020, 01:50:32 PM
what everyone is misunderstanding is this....its not about the hunters or giving the hunters access.. it all boils down to money. wdfw pays the landowners a little money to enroll. they "give permission" although its to their own friends and family which is no different than prior to enrolling in the program. WDFW gets to advertise this "millions of acres of private land have been opened for access to the public", this equals more license sales, because people have the false sense of "lots of land to hunt". by eliminating the programs, wdfw cannot advertise the "millions of private acres for the public" thus resulting in less licenses sold. and ultimately wdfw loses money, the loss of money will instantly halt any progress to a better system. You gotta always remember.....it all comes down to the greedy green dollar...

BINGO!!!!!
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: pastormike on October 21, 2020, 05:02:42 PM: Thanks you all,

He did mention points and yes, he is in CRP and there are grants for participating in that so wdfw may not give him $$but they give him points to help him stay in CRP and being in CRP pays more than farming, I guess. Either way taxpayer money and fraudulent imho. I will definitely contact the land coordinator or whoever that is...he texted everything back and forth and you see him say to come back next week, yes you can hunt, meet to sign then 6 hours later tell me I cant hunt because "we're filled up." the webpage for his land says no limit on hunters...And, nobody is there.

Its just terrible. Worked so hard and spent so much time there based on what he said. :bash:

I guess we'll go kill some blacktails...gotta leave tomorrow.

If someone disrupts a hunter they are breaking the law, well he sure disrupted us, but not in the traditional sense.
But he can be that way if he wants, doesn't change who i am or what I'm about and in the end, it doesn't even hurt me...just sucks to go from such a high, locating 2 bucks possibly getting my first Muley and my wife's first deer ever, getting the permission and then getting shut down.
He told me he does this for people who don't get to very often...the moments we signed he said other hunters are coming that have been coming for 15 years. He should have just said "No." but i suppose he gets points for signing each hunter, rather than a set amount for just being in the program...

anyhoo, I appreciate your posts, and i'm moving on...

happy hunting!

Mike
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Stein on October 21, 2020, 05:07:03 PM: Each area will have a biologist that manages the program, find the one for that area and give them a ring. If nothing else they at least know there was one problem with that guy and if others complained he could make a change for next year.

I agree there shouldn't be a landowner permission, it should be limited to either FFTH (now register to hunt), or managed by WDFW through the reservation system.

Then again, that would result in some places giving no access and money likely going unspent and unbudgeted next cycle for that area. I know in our area they could get more properties if they could find more willing landowners.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: O. hemionus on October 24, 2020, 10:27:27 PM: WDFW Private Lands Biologist map
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/wdfw_wildlife_private_lands_bios_map_8-12-2020.pdf
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: lokidog on October 24, 2020, 11:47:09 PM: At least you got to talk to someone. The year I tried to contact any (about a dozen) while I was scouting, not a single one had a working phone number, answered a phone, or returned a call.

From my limited experience, this program needs to go the way of the Dodo.....
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on October 25, 2020, 05:58:22 AM: Unless things have changed in the last few years landowners get paid NOTHING for joining the written permission program.
I know someone who had their land in the program for years..They NEVER received a penny.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: baldopepper on October 25, 2020, 08:40:53 AM: Have a close friend with acarage all over the eastside. He has been approached several times to join the programs but has never been offered any money from wdfw to do so.
Title: Re: Amazed and frustrated
Post by: Stein on October 25, 2020, 09:57:16 AM: I hadn't heard that the written permission sites weren't paid, could be true. I know all the other versions in my area are paid. As others said, hunt by reservation doesn't provide nearly the opportunity as other methods so if they got less or nothing that would make sense. My guess is that landowners in the system do it more for wildlife control or to have their land better utilized (pro-hunter) than for the few bucks they make from the state.

The state provides liability advantages over just giving out permission directly, so it could be a trade of liability protection for letting a few public hunters on with the hopes WDFW could eventually convince them to move the land into a more accessible version. I know in our area, it's common for land to start in the reservation system and then move into the register to hunt after a year or two with good results and behavior.