Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 04, 2020, 08:43:12 PM
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/12/04/killer-of-returning-puget-sound-salmon-is-hidden-in-plain-sight-scientists-say/
Post by: huntnphool on December 04, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
If this is true, what are they going to do about it? What would you do about it?
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/12/04/killer-of-returning-puget-sound-salmon-is-hidden-in-plain-sight-scientists-say/
Can you paste it, I don’t have a subscription
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 04, 2020, 08:55:27 PM
Going to have to go back to more eco friendly tires or horses and trains. Maybe the tire companies will have to tack on some extra cost and then pay to mitigate fish loss like hydro does?
I've also seen claims that brake dust has a certain amount of copper in it that runs down to streams and kills fish. :dunno:
Post by: Camo on December 04, 2020, 09:00:10 PM
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 04, 2020, 09:01:56 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 04, 2020, 09:16:06 PM
I have yet to see any sign that Puget sound coho are mysteriously dieing. And I fish allot.
If it's one river (creek) in Seattle maybe they should test the waters for narcotics. All the homeless druggies going to the bathroom along river beds. I know salmon around Bremerton tested positive for several different drugs a year or so ago..
Post by: huntnphool on December 04, 2020, 10:16:40 PM
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/tire-dust-is-killing-salmon/
Anybody else see the agenda? Stop driving cars and use the new sound transit trains. :rolleyes:
Post by: westsidehntr on December 04, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 04, 2020, 10:30:48 PM
I bet money will fix it...Yup, just pay this tire tax, to save the salmon. What a load of shire.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 04, 2020, 11:09:36 PM
If this is true, what are they going to do about it? What would you do about it?
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/12/04/killer-of-returning-puget-sound-salmon-is-hidden-in-plain-sight-scientists-say/
Can you paste it, I don’t have a subscription
Try this one.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/tire-dust-is-killing-salmon/
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 04, 2020, 11:11:40 PM
I have a problem with this, it kills ONLY COHO.No mention of trout, sculpins, other salmon species, stickleback ect. If tire residue is so toxic to kill mature Coho, in pretty quick order, then why is it not killing everything else? :twocents:
I believe it's from the timing of when the cohos return, from reading the story. They usually return when the fall monsoons hit.
Post by: huntnphool on December 04, 2020, 11:31:54 PM
The majority of the returns hit the sound at the end of August and early September, not much rain around that time the last several years. :dunno:I have a problem with this, it kills ONLY COHO.No mention of trout, sculpins, other salmon species, stickleback ect. If tire residue is so toxic to kill mature Coho, in pretty quick order, then why is it not killing everything else? :twocents:
I believe it's from the timing of when the cohos return, from reading the story. They usually return when the fall monsoons hit.
Post by: Camo on December 05, 2020, 12:06:25 AM
The majority of the returns hit the sound at the end of August and early September, not much rain around that time the last several years. :dunno:
[/quote]
Yeah, but not quite in the rivers yet. Seems two of the last three years during peak of the run the rivers have been blown? I think peak (fishing)of the river run is a few weeks prior to spawn. Not that I have bought into this yet, but do find it interesting that it kills pre-spawn adults but not outgoing smolt in the spring. Maybe it just hasn't been noticed yet?
Post by: huntnphool on December 05, 2020, 12:30:23 AM
The majority of the returns hit the sound at the end of August and early September, not much rain around that time the last several years. :dunno:
Yeah, but not quite in the rivers yet. Seems two of the last three years during peak of the run the rivers have been blown? I think peak (fishing)of the river run is a few weeks prior to spawn. Not that I have bought into this yet, but do find it interesting that it kills pre-spawn adults but not outgoing smolt in the spring. Maybe it just hasn't been noticed yet?
[/quote]
Peak of the run in the south sound area hasn’t seen hardly any rain at all. :twocents:
Not only that, I’ve not seen a single fish floating dead the entire season...as far back as I can remember....and I fish almost daily during that time. :dunno:
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 05, 2020, 08:35:26 AM
I will use Lake Washington as an example. That body of water probably recieves about as much roadway runoff as any, probably more. But yet, every fall at the start of the rainy season, we never see a major fish kill. If it were to happen, it would be all you would see on local news. KING, KIRO and KOMO would be showing it to you every night, as an example why we need to submit to climate change. Now do I think this chemical is harmful? No doubt it is, I just wish news like this was not treated as the next dooms day crisis we need to fix right now. Or it is death to all of us. This chemical also absolves all parties of there responsibility in the salmon solution, its now Les Schwab's fault. :twocents:
Post by: Stein on December 05, 2020, 10:09:59 AM
The coho never show up in Puget Sound, long before they would be able to get killed by the tires. We would also see a bunch of floating fish and the toxin would be building up in the seals and kill them too.
Post by: huntnphool on December 05, 2020, 03:58:48 PM
Yeah, the millions of gallons of raw sewage Seattle dumps in probably don't have any impact. I'm surprised it's not limited to boat trailer tires.
The coho never show up in Puget Sound, long before they would be able to get killed by the tires. We would also see a bunch of floating fish and the toxin would be building up in the seals and kill them too.
Well thankfully the area orcas are safe, since they only eat chinook! :tup:
Post by: Stein on December 05, 2020, 04:09:01 PM
You can do the same math for the Columbia, they would need a couple million to enter to kill 90% and still have the returns they do.
Sounds like someone had some fun with a chunk of tire and a pet store aquarium and then made a rather big jump to the Pacific Ocean.
I'm not saying tires in the rivers and oceans are a good thing, I'm just highly doubtful it's killing 90% of the salmon that return. I think they are off by at least two orders of magnitude which if true is extremely shameful for a published paper.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 05, 2020, 04:15:14 PM
Post by: skidynastar33 on December 05, 2020, 04:19:13 PM
If you run the math, it's fairly comical. Puget Sound coho return was 670,000 last year. If tires are killing 90%, then 670k/.1= a real return of 6.7 million before the tires killed them all upon entering the sound and rivers. I would think we would be able to see 6 million dead fish floating around somewhere. I would think the ocean fishermen would also notice if 6-7 million coho were returning.
You can do the same math for the Columbia, they would need a couple million to enter to kill 90% and still have the returns they do.
It’s not 90% of the coho run. It’s specifically the small creeks that are more near roads. They talk about a creek in west Seattle. The bigger rivers have enough fresh clean water from the mountains to not be as effected. But small creeks off the river could be.
Sounds like someone had some fun with a chunk of tire and a pet store aquarium and then made a rather big jump to the Pacific Ocean.
I'm not saying tires in the rivers and oceans are a good thing, I'm just highly doubtful it's killing 90% of the salmon that return. I think they are off by at least two orders of magnitude which if true is extremely shameful for a published paper.
Post by: skidynastar33 on December 05, 2020, 04:22:55 PM
You can argue timing all you want. To me the real question is, why does this chemical only kill Coho? Why is there not a major fish kill every fall, of every species when the fall rains do come?
I will use Lake Washington as an example. That body of water probably recieves about as much roadway runoff as any, probably more. But yet, every fall at the start of the rainy season, we never see a major fish kill. If it were to happen, it would be all you would see on local news. KING, KIRO and KOMO would be showing it to you every night, as an example why we need to submit to climate change. Now do I think this chemical is harmful? No doubt it is, I just wish news like this was not treated as the next dooms day crisis we need to fix right now. Or it is death to all of us. This chemical also absolves all parties of there responsibility in the salmon solution, its now Les Schwab's fault. :twocents:
Maybe the study was only specific to coho, it may kill other fish as well but they were specifically studying coho in the study. Also the study seems specific to smaller creeks. Other salmon species may not be present in these creeks. Also seems like the first big rains will wash a lot of the tire particles to the creeks. That usually times with the coho run. Kings don’t really spawn in smaller creeks. Chum are later after the rains abs first run offs.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on December 05, 2020, 04:45:56 PM
Post by: Alchase on December 05, 2020, 05:09:24 PM
You could easily limit just picking up the bright and shiny floaters.
Off the water, tons of net caught Chum dumped on the side of the Puyallup after been stripped of their eggs, and just left to rot.
Tons of net caught Steelhead and Salmon dumped next to the Skokomish River. My Dad and I came a crossed this a few times. Tried to report it, WDFW had no interest.
Post by: WSU on December 07, 2020, 10:07:02 AM
I could believe a pretty big number. Growing up I used to see salmon regularly in the creeks that fed into the Sammamish Slough. As development occurred they faded away and as far as I know are gone now. That's one small watershed that undoubtedly held quite a few salmon. Extrapolate that basin wide and I'm sure the numbers could be staggering.
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 10:18:00 AM
The hatchery also uses creek or river water to raise the fry and they aren't dying. It also doesn't seem to impact the eggs before hatching. Or trout or any of the other fish in the river that don't migrate out.
I would love to find the easy button and it's certainly possible there is something big here, it just sounds like there are a bunch of questions around this.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 07, 2020, 10:21:23 AM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on December 07, 2020, 10:39:39 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 10:42:14 AM
I've seen reports over the past few years that indicate coho mysteriously die pre-spawn in PS streams and creeks. The reports had narrowed it down to run off after rains but hadn't pinpointed what was in the runoff that killed them. I would buy that heightened levels of whatever the pollutant is following the first big rain of the year could be the cause. If it's tire dust, it's had a lot of dry months in a row to build up.:yeah:
I could believe a pretty big number. Growing up I used to see salmon regularly in the creeks that fed into the Sammamish Slough. As development occurred they faded away and as far as I know are gone now. That's one small watershed that undoubtedly held quite a few salmon. Extrapolate that basin wide and I'm sure the numbers could be staggering.
I live in Normandy Park and we have small streams that dump into the sound. Every year they plant fingerlings in walker and miller creek, every year coho salmon return and flop around in the creeks and die before they spawn. There is a ton of small stream habitat that could be reproducing salmon if they could actually spawn.
Post by: WSU on December 07, 2020, 10:43:55 AM
This really does seem to make sense. Runs are continually getting worse and worse despite less fishing. As development grows, more of these environmental factors come into play.
Folks ought to read the studies before disputing them.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 07, 2020, 11:49:47 AM
Post by: 2MANY on December 07, 2020, 01:13:18 PM
Man this corner of the US was once epic.
Now it's just plain gay.
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 01:33:49 PM
It's in the article and the studies linked in the articles. The deaths are occurring in small, urban streams and were found to kill both wild and hatchery fish. The deaths only appear to occur in well developed areas and did not appear in areas with less than 10% developed land cover.
This really does seem to make sense. Runs are continually getting worse and worse despite less fishing. As development grows, more of these environmental factors come into play.
Folks ought to read the studies before disputing them.
Yeah, but the runs in most trouble don't go anywhere near Seattle - Hood Canal Chum, Stilly Chinook, at most, it explains why fish die in creeks where they spawn in town. It also doesn't explain how a run can have a 90% die off of returning adults and not be completely wiped out within a couple generations.
Finally, it assumes it's coming from tires and not other 6PPD sources like the crumb rubber in playgrounds or sporting fields.
It seems to be a trend in some studies, they get some data, prove some things and then make several unproven claims. From there, the media takes hold.
If it is a problem, I hope we address it. I am simply wonder if we magically took 6PPD out of the environment, what change in salmon return we would see? If it's only really impacting downtown fish, it won't make a dent in the problem.
Post by: WSU on December 07, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
Hood Canal and the Stilly have their own problems, as do many other runs. I'm not under some delusion that fixing the tire run off in urban Seattle would repair the degraded habitat in the Stilly from decades of poor logging practices. There are a lot of reasons our fish runs are tanking. This study just points to why the fish in these urban streams don't survive. It doesn't attempt to apply the analysis to other places.
Also, I don't think it is inaccurate to say that runs have been wiped out in a few generations. The Sammamish Slough streams I referenced earlier went from having fish every year that I could go watch to having no fish in a relatively short period of time.
Again, read the studies. It's isn't the media boogeyman spinning this.
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 02:15:02 PM
Come on folks, you've got to read just a bit more closely..."takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn." That's not the entire PS coho return, not the hatcheries, not the Green or Puyallup or Sky or Snoq...none of which have urban spawning areas. This is talking about Thornton Creek, Pipers Creek, and some of the other tiny little creeks that flow into Lake Washington or the Sound with spawning gravel that runs through truly urban areas. You'd never see the floaters because you (and I) aren't trying to fish tiny little creeks alongside the road in Ballard.
I did read the study and here is what it says:
Quote
This mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area despite costly societal investments in physical habitat restoration that may have inadvertently created ecological traps due to episodic toxic water pollution
It isn't talking about two creeks in Seattle, they are saying that up to 90% of the salmon are killed in 40% of Puget Sound from tire dust.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 02:23:35 PM
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 02:30:57 PM
The report claims up to 90% of returning fish from Olympia up to Bellingham are being killed every year before they spawn.
This isn't one or two creeks.
Post by: Fishmaker57 on December 07, 2020, 02:33:21 PM
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 02:38:58 PM
And exactly when did they begin putting this chemical in tires? Prior to the Puget Sound runs being listed? Prior to the Bolt decision? I am hoping folks are smart enough to know that diminished salmon runs are due to many issues, and this is just one more. This isn't an "aha!" moment, when miraculously we know how to fix this issue.
Anyone thinking about putting in a paved driveway or another roof on their property anywhere near Puget Sound probably should think about doing that sooner rather than later. You don't need a magic 8 ball to see where this is going to lead.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 02:50:46 PM
40% of Puget Sound is a HUGE area. Looking at a map, a big chunk of the Sound has light development, so 40% would basically be every metro area in the entire sound.Exactly how familiar are you with this study that you are shooting holes in and claiming to understand what the numbers mean and relate to? How many hours have you spent counting salmon, working with the biologists?
The report claims up to 90% of returning fish from Olympia up to Bellingham are being killed every year before they spawn.
This isn't one or two creeks.
I am trying to explain what those numbers mean and if you just want to argue to argue and don't really care about understanding the study I can move on.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 02:52:30 PM
"In a breakthrough paper published in the Dec. 3 issue of Science, a team of researchers revealed the culprit behind the deaths of coho in an estimated 40% of the Puget Sound area — a killer so lethal it takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn. It is a killer hidden in plain sight."
What that means is that in the estimated 40% of the water that dumps into Puget Sound they did a study and in SOME URBAN streams 40-90% of the coho die before spawning.
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 07, 2020, 02:58:20 PM
Quote directly from the Seattle Times article.You made mention I believe, about doing counts on these creeks and seeing first hand the pre spawn dead salmon? With a 90% kill rate, that's pretty toxic. What other species did you log in your counts?
"a killer so lethal it takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn."
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 03:02:12 PM
Quote
This mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area
I read it as this problem threatens salmon across roughly 40% of Puget Sound land area. Do you read it differently? I don't see how this is at all limited to a few small creeks in Seattle. Correct me if I am wrong.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:05:07 PM
Chum salmon are running up the creek right now and doing just fine. No kings or humpies return to those two creeks.Quote directly from the Seattle Times article.You made mention I believe, about doing counts on these creeks and seeing first hand the pre spawn dead salmon? With a 90% kill rate, that's pretty toxic. What other species did you log in your counts?
"a killer so lethal it takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn."
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:06:06 PM
I'm all ears, here is the exact quote directly from the study.Oh it threatens them for sure but it is not killing 90% of the salmon in 40% of the rivers.QuoteThis mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area
I read it as this problem threatens salmon across roughly 40% of Puget Sound land area. Do you read it differently? I don't see how this is at all limited to a few small creeks in Seattle. Correct me if I am wrong.
Post by: Special T on December 07, 2020, 03:07:50 PM
its not correct to say that the "runs most in trouble" don't go anywhere near Seattle. Many of those runs referenced in the study are all but gone.Like the illegal homeless encampmens in the watersheds... That have illegal scrap melting shops for meth money?
Hood Canal and the Stilly have their own problems, as do many other runs. I'm not under some delusion that fixing the tire run off in urban Seattle would repair the degraded habitat in the Stilly from decades of poor logging practices. There are a lot of reasons our fish runs are tanking. This study just points to why the fish in these urban streams don't survive. It doesn't attempt to apply the analysis to other places.
Also, I don't think it is inaccurate to say that runs have been wiped out in a few generations. The Sammamish Slough streams I referenced earlier went from having fish every year that I could go watch to having no fish in a relatively short period of time.
Again, read the studies. It's isn't the media boogeyman spinning this.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:08:13 PM
Post by: Special T on December 07, 2020, 03:11:31 PM
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:12:31 PM
Now does the chemical not affect them or has the chemical been flushed out of the creek by now with all the rain that we have had? That's still up for debate.
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 03:22:26 PM
I just look at the claim, up to 90% of the salmon are killed in 40% of the Sound. That would mean that 90% of the adults die before spawning, which only leaves 10% of the run to reproduce and then those fry would have to swim back through the toxin and 90% of those would die. I just don't think you can have anywhere near that kill (even if it were just adults) and have a single fish return after a generation or two which is well under 10 years for coho. I think if you put that into any of the return models, they will just break.
Maybe it's a new compound that has only been around a short period and we are in deep doo-doo, maybe it's not anywhere near 40% of the Sound and limited to a few very small areas, maybe it only occurs every once in a while when the rain, tires and fish all line up in perfect timing, who knows.
I hope this leads to more research instead of more legislation before we understand what is really happening and where. Even the report did note that expensive habitat restoration could be making it worse.
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 03:28:59 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:36:53 PM
Don't those two Normandy Park creeks go right up to SeaTac airport?Why yes they do. Do you think there is a little tire wear on that runway? Do you think the number of coho killing particles skyrocketed when the third runway went in?
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:44:51 PM
In my best Joe Biden voice, LOOK......Here's the deal.....now that we know what is killing these salmon in urban creeks we aren't going to do anything about it. The tire companies need to use that chemical to make money and the airport needs to stay open. What we can do is limit the number of fish that recreational fisherman take.
I am sure there is something that Jay Inslee can say also that "We as Washingtonians need to " blah blah blah.
If anything is actually going to get done about this it is going to be because the tribes sue the state over declining salmon runs. They have already won the lawsuit about improving the habitat and fixing all of the concrete culverts. If they take this to court they will win there as well and it will either take a payoff to the tribes for the lost fish. That will be way cheaper than the actual fix to get rid of the chemical and clean up the particles getting into the streams.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2020, 03:52:22 PM
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 04:00:28 PM
If you don't like cars, roads, pavement and impervious surfaces this report is pretty much an early Christmas present as long as you don't look too hard at the conclusions, especially the ones not supported by the study data.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 07, 2020, 04:28:18 PM
40% of Puget Sound is a HUGE area. Looking at a map, a big chunk of the Sound has light development, so 40% would basically be every metro area in the entire sound.
The report claims up to 90% of returning fish from Olympia up to Bellingham are being killed every year before they spawn.
This isn't one or two creeks.
You are misrepresenting things Stein. Here is the quote you focused on. "This mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area " It means that this threat exists in 40% of the Sound, yes, but it doesn't mean the kill rate is 90% in every Stream in that area. But in some streams the kill rate is 90%. Other streams may have mitigating factors that shrink that 90%. But the potential is there in that 40% area. What is clear is that that chemical is not good for salmon. What we do about it is another story. As Rainier 10 pointed out, we can ignore it and end fishing, or we can use the best science and fix it. Maybe not 100% but to a point where fishing is decent again. It just depends on how much salmon mean to us.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 07, 2020, 04:34:20 PM
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 04:46:27 PM
It's 100% clear what is limiting recreational fishing in Puget Sound: Hood Canal, Stillaguamish and now Snohomish. Same story this year, same story last year. WDFW sets seasons based on those returns, right or wrong it's reality unfortunately. If you don't fix those three or change the recovery plan, recreational fishing will continue to be much more limited with widespread closures we are seeing.
So, fixing a river not on that list won't fix fishing. It's not a bad thing, hope they do it. It won't change fishing seasons though.
If this report is interpreted and followed up and we get to the bottom of where the chemicals are really coming from and fix a few waters that have the problem, I'll come back here and eat my words gladly. If it's misrepresented and used as a sledgehammer to drive legislation in areas that don't have the problem or don't address the actual problem, well, we all lose.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 07, 2020, 04:59:50 PM
https://craigmedred.news/2020/12/04/dying-cohoes/
Post by: Stein on December 07, 2020, 05:03:24 PM
Craig seems to have linked it to car tires already as well.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 07, 2020, 05:19:34 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjtspPsl73tAhVaJzQIHWCiDCkQFjAJegQICxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ospar.org%2Fdocuments%3Fd%3D7029&usg=AOvVaw28hkgd_juG7C-U5bbygf6W
Hopefully this link will work.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 07, 2020, 05:21:19 PM
Post by: Special T on December 08, 2020, 02:04:50 AM
It appears to me that several water setting ponds exist for runoff for the airport. God knows every new development in the lat 30 years has them.
Not that i i wouldn't love to find the Silver bullet on the issue because the we could quit flooding good state land for salmon habitat.... That said im some what skeptical. Perhaps its the seals in mass number eating salmon... evenen as far up as Mount Vernon or Burlington....
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Post by: GASoline71 on December 08, 2020, 07:02:26 AM
Gary
Post by: metlhead on December 08, 2020, 03:20:00 PM
Post by: chukar58 on December 08, 2020, 03:43:42 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 08, 2020, 03:46:44 PM
I have witnessed the define and destruction of the puget sound rivers for nearly the last forty years. It all started with the Marine Mammal in the 70’s. The numbers and variety of predators has greatly increased while our fisheries declined , plain and simple. Tire dust is Junk Science to hide the real problem.
So what your saying is we need to whack some sea lions and seals and up hatchery production...hmm. I'm no scientist but you might be on to something.
Post by: Mudman on December 08, 2020, 04:17:13 PM
Post by: Crunchy on December 08, 2020, 04:28:45 PM
Post by: Flaming Antler Outdoors on December 08, 2020, 06:32:56 PM
Post by: Stein on December 08, 2020, 07:18:14 PM
18% mortality on rod reel caught salmon. I know it seems like more but they are tougher than you think.
Where did they find that data? I bet 1/5 get munched by the seals that follow them up to the boat and hang out behind.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 19, 2020, 02:14:27 PM
Did they ever figure out what happened to the cod fishery in the puget sound? Ive fish the south puget sound since 1980 and seen the decline of salmon and cod first hand. Wouldn't you think at least in part that whatever the reason for cod decline would be somehow related to the salmon decline.I've heard it was related to the bottom dragging. There used to be some areas that held large amounts of cod because the bottom had a ton of sand lance.
Post by: Loup Loup on December 21, 2020, 10:02:41 AM
Post by: Stein on December 21, 2020, 10:37:06 AM
It's a scientific fact that fresh water kills not only adult Coho, but all adult salmoniods.
Does that include kokanee?
Post by: Loup Loup on December 21, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
Post by: Alchase on December 21, 2020, 11:03:20 AM
It's a scientific fact that fresh water kills not only adult Coho, but all adult salmoniods.
Does that include kokanee?
Kokanee, (land locked Sockey), land locked Silver or land locked blackmouth all survive in fresh water.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on December 21, 2020, 11:17:49 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 21, 2020, 11:26:44 AM
Post by: Chesterdog on December 21, 2020, 11:36:39 AM
Post by: KopperBuck on December 21, 2020, 12:13:25 PM
Salmon and steelhead seem to do better in the Great Lakes, as of late, than they do here.
We need to introduce mussels!! Oh wait...
Post by: metlhead on December 21, 2020, 04:51:32 PM
Post by: Loup Loup on December 21, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 21, 2020, 05:39:38 PM