Post by: jbeaumont21 on December 17, 2020, 07:09:33 PM
Long-range shooting is all the rage these days with hunters reaching out to drop big game animals at distances that only snipers with military-trained shooting skills could achieve. If you need further proof of that, look no further than this video of 12-year-old Danner Davidson hunting in Wyoming.
His group spots a nice bull elk far in the distance. In fact, the rangefinder say it is a 1,376 yard shot. Yes, you read that correctly! Danner is using a Gunwerks hunting rifle chambered in 7mm Remington Magnum and with a little coaching, dials in this extreme long range shot to make a kill.
This turns out to be a crazy hunting trip and a story we might not have believed had they not taken video of this little long range hunter to prove it. Watch it all unfold in the video below.
Danner's first shot did not appear to connect here. However, the miss didn't matter at such a longer range. The bull probably couldn't pinpoint where the shot was coming from. Obviously, this was an extreme scenario where his mentors felt weather conditions and field conditions were perfect to allow for such a shot. If the kid has already practiced at these distances and knows how to compensate for the windage and bullet drop, we're all for it. The shot clearly hit the kill zone and the bull did not go far at all.
Obviously, to make shots like this, you need a lot of range time, some understanding of ballistic coefficient and a quality riflescope with high magnification. There is some question on ethics with longer shots like this, but this video proves it can be done. A good bipod or a set of shooting sticks is an obvious must to increase your effective range to extreme distances like this. A quality, long range round like .300 Winchester Magnum, 6.5 Creedmoor or PRC may be preferable.
Long range hunting in many ways is like bowhunting, just at an opposite extreme in skills and discipline. Both practices take an extreme amount of skill, a lot of time flinging arrows or burning ammo at the range, and incredible patience. Might be a good idea to get into reloading to save some money. Obviously, this style of hunting is not for everyone, but if you have the know how and the skills, it can work.
Post by: Encore 280 on December 17, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on December 17, 2020, 07:33:18 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 17, 2020, 07:40:44 PM
Aren't Davidsons the owners/builders of Gunwerks and specialize in the long range stuff?Aaron Davidson is their CEO.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 17, 2020, 07:48:14 PM
Stretch for 300 gr at 3000 fps but doable.
Post by: BNAElkhntr on December 17, 2020, 07:53:56 PM
Post by: Encore 280 on December 17, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Post by: grousetracker on December 17, 2020, 08:16:29 PM
Post by: Southpole on December 17, 2020, 08:24:11 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 17, 2020, 08:28:59 PM
Post by: Pegasus on December 17, 2020, 08:36:04 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 17, 2020, 08:38:37 PM
There should be a law against this type of "hunting". Whatever happened to clean kills? He missed the first shot. Tells you that shot should never have been taken. There are so many factors at play on a bullet traveling that far that it is ridiculous to take a shot like that. Shame on his dad for encouraging this type of bad behavior.
What about the guy who shoots a box of ammo a year and another half box at running deer at 200 yards? I agree we should stick to our limitations but that crap occurs at all skill levels
Post by: h20hunter on December 17, 2020, 08:39:55 PM
That video has made the rounds. Kid did his part on the trigger no doubt. Lot of cash went into that set up.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 17, 2020, 08:44:06 PM
Post by: h20hunter on December 17, 2020, 08:46:29 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 17, 2020, 08:54:39 PM
Completely disagree ( with Pegasus).Where do you draw the line? 500 yards? 1000 yards?
That video has made the rounds. Kid did his part on the trigger no doubt. Lot of cash went into that set up.
I draw the line at 1500 ft lbs for elk. He was at 1070 ( assuming 195s at 6000 ft) My lapua with 300 gr is double that for same shot.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 17, 2020, 09:05:34 PM
Nope....sorry your post got in between. :tup:
Gotcha :hello:
Yeah I think the kid must have got the "yankems" on the first shot because conditions looked perfect and I'm sure that gun shoots lights out. Long way out there for most 7mm setups but there are plenty of big bullets that can still carry a real ass whoopin' that far.
Post by: Dan-o on December 17, 2020, 10:01:48 PM
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
Post by: Pegasus on December 17, 2020, 10:03:59 PM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 17, 2020, 10:07:02 PM
Too risky trying to predict if the bull is going to...umm...maybe take a step? Oops with the over 1 second bullet travel I him in the arse and lost him? Cool but not the most responsible thing to do. :twocents:
Post by: Dan-o on December 17, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
But he didn't what?
Post by: Pegasus on December 17, 2020, 10:29:36 PM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
But he didn't what?
Did not hit his target on the first shot proving he should not be shooting at that range...No 10/10. He was lucky not to maim that elk.
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 17, 2020, 10:30:46 PM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
But he didn't what?
Put 10 out of 10 in the kill zone..
Shanked the first round...or the dial a dope was off...
Which right off the bat tells me all those guy's where beyond their one shot one kill comfort zone.. just lobbing rounds at animals. :twocents:
Post by: Okanagan on December 17, 2020, 10:35:18 PM
Long-range shooting...
...it can work.
Post by: Pegasus on December 17, 2020, 10:36:47 PM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
But he didn't what?
Put 10 out of 10 in the kill zone..
Shanked the first round...or the dial a dope was off...
Which right off the bat tells me all those guy's where beyond their one shot one kill comfort zone.. just lobbing rounds at animals. :twocents:
You can bet that the group with him are out there now trying to beat his yardage and if they kill one you can bet they will post the edited video. They won't post the ones where they maim the animal.
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 17, 2020, 10:44:25 PM
Long range hunting is a different animal. Proof by the video where it appears he missed gut shooting the elk by a couple inches.
Speaking from experience with tons of practice beyond a grand I would never personally use that skill set to harvest a animal. To many variables to consider and to many things can go wrong..and as hunter's we owe the game we pursue clean and ethical kill shot's. Especially when it's going to take you an hour or two to hike to where the animal is at....:twocents:
Post by: Dan-o on December 17, 2020, 11:02:57 PM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
But he didn't what?
Put 10 out of 10 in the kill zone..
Shanked the first round...or the dial a dope was off...
Which right off the bat tells me all those guy's where beyond their one shot one kill comfort zone.. just lobbing rounds at animals. :twocents:
You can bet that the group with him are out there now trying to beat his yardage and if they kill one you can bet they will post the edited video. They won't post the ones where they maim the animal.
I agree.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on December 17, 2020, 11:20:02 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2020, 07:11:00 AM
Take the range out of the equation and what I saw was a 12 year old kid who setup fast, got into a solid shooting position, missed, stayed on target, made a correction and got his second shot off accurately. Very impressive for such a young shooter.
Once again, I AM NOT condoning shooting anything but targets at that kind of distance but I feel that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones :twocents:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2020, 07:11:58 AM
What I don’t like is the video and article is about a kid shooting an elk at 1300+ yards or whatever and then they mention the 6.5 CM as a long range round. If you’re talking shooting targets at 1k then ok, but what you have is a hunting video/write up. To me that is them suggesting the creedmoor is acceptable for hunting at 1k plus yards.I noticed that too. Im thinking the author isn't very well versed in rifle calibers :chuckle:
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 18, 2020, 07:18:20 AM
Post by: Stein on December 18, 2020, 07:32:26 AM
Far too much room for error to be comfortable with it.
1st shot a complete miss..... Could just s easily be a leg, or paunch, or gut, or.......
The kid made a great shot.
If he can show that he can put 10/10 in a kill zone sized target at that range, I'd feel better about it.
But he didn't...
In the video. Dude Perfect always makes the shot too.
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on December 18, 2020, 07:45:58 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2020, 07:59:24 AM
Missing happens at all ranges. Personally I wouldn't shoot at elk or deer at that distance due to too many variables. I love target shooting to 1500 and bow shooting to 100yds. That said I missed my biggest bull at 11 yds.... it haunts me. Regardless, shooting that far at elk probably shouldn't be encouraged. I'm sure all the videos of maimed elk or missed elk are not shown... it would hurt their whole business model.I've seen a lot of hunting videos of guys making really terrible shots at much closer ranges that get neatly edited too though :dunno:
Post by: Axle on December 18, 2020, 08:05:01 AM
Post by: birddogdad on December 18, 2020, 08:08:25 AM
ANY distance should be to your own comfort level. I know that if i ever draw one of those special 20 pointer tags, my stupid heavy Cheytac will be with me and if i have that chance and it meets MY comfort levels / environment and MW's impact considerations, you can bet i will send it!
of note, in 50+ years of hunting, never had to reach past 500yds for any game and yes comfortable well beyond that range. I too prefer stalking in but that is my choice :twocents:....
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 18, 2020, 08:11:42 AM
That said I missed my biggest bull at 11 yds.... it haunts me.
Missed a neck kill shot at 10 yards under heavy reprod at first light. Got away. With a rifle! It happens.
Also elevation is a big factor - ft lbs at 9000 ft are so much more than at sea level.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 18, 2020, 08:12:25 AM
While I'm happy for him, I still don't consider this 'fair chase'.
Cool!
Post by: Stein on December 18, 2020, 08:19:31 AM
The debate is actually the question of what probability do you think is ethical? What is the probability of putting a bullet in a vital sized target using a hunting rifle and improvised rest in a location where you have not shot before and have only one wind data point?
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 18, 2020, 08:19:51 AM
As for missing. Of course it happens. That's why putting limitations on your distance is important to increase your odds of clean harvest. The odds of someone missing at 200 is allot less than someone missing at 1300.
What's the drop on a 7mag at 1300, 20-25' maybe.. how many wind calls do you have, need at least 3 at that distance, direction of thermals, what's the elevation done to your zero....the list is long..as many of you know.
I'm just venting I guess. Not trying to minimize anyone's ability. I just see these videos and I cringe. Knowing they wound a fair share...
Post by: Woodchuck on December 18, 2020, 08:22:03 AM
Well we actually don't know if the kid was on the gun for the shot...the video does pan away for that part.. :chuckle:HA! I can miss at 200 with amazing precision!
As for missing. Of course it happens. That's why putting limitations on your distance is important to increase your odds of clean harvest. The odds of someone missing at 200 is allot less than someone missing at 1300.
What's the drop on a 7mag at 1300, 20-25' maybe.. how many wind calls do you have, need at least 3 at that distance, direction of thermals, what's the elevation done to your zero....the list is long..as many of you know.
I'm just venting I guess. Not trying to minimize anyone's ability. I just see these videos and I cringe. Knowing they wound a fair share...
Post by: KFhunter on December 18, 2020, 08:36:04 AM
To me nothings beats a screaming bull on a string and I prefer them inside of 20 yards, I want to hear the thud of their hooves and smell that elk piss.
Can't get that experience at 1300 yards
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: LabChamp on December 18, 2020, 08:40:49 AM
Post by: Igor on December 18, 2020, 08:50:39 AM
Take the range out of the equation .........
The range of the shot is precisely what makes it a questionable one, if not downright unethical.
Post by: bearhunter99 on December 18, 2020, 09:05:16 AM
My biggest issue is that you can't control the variables in a hunting situation. Shooting at 1,000+ yards at a range which is mostly flat ground and has far fewer variables is one thing but shooting across a canyon just has too many variables. You know what the wind is doing where you are but unless you have someone at the halfway point and another standing next to the animal how would you ever know what the wind and thermals are doing anywhere else along the flight of the bullet? I know for a fact that I have been in the field and been across a canyon from a hunting partner (about 500 yards apart) and the wind was blowing east where I was and northwest where he was. The only way to accurately gauge what the bullet is going to in any given scenario is to take a shot and spot it and adjust. Even then conditions can change in a matter of seconds too.... That is fine for a gong but not for an animal in my opinion because that first shot could have devastating results.
That being said, as others have mentioned there are many that take shots outside of their comfort zone and I have seen all sorts of misses and bad shots with a bow, rifle and muzzleloader that can be attributed to a bunch of different factors including "buck fever". :twocents:
Post by: Angry Perch on December 18, 2020, 09:53:46 AM
Missing happens at all ranges. Personally I wouldn't shoot at elk or deer at that distance due to too many variables. I love target shooting to 1500 and bow shooting to 100yds. That said I missed my biggest bull at 11 yds.... it haunts me. Regardless, shooting that far at elk probably shouldn't be encouraged. I'm sure all the videos of maimed elk or missed elk are not shown... it would hurt their whole business model.I've seen a lot of hunting videos of guys making really terrible shots at much closer ranges that get neatly edited too though :dunno:
Watching the Sportsman Channel makes my feel pretty good about my shooting!
"Dude, you smoked him!" ... (cut to the guy finding his deer in the dead of night with blood running down his back leg)
Post by: ctwiggs1 on December 18, 2020, 10:13:59 AM
Post by: bigdub257 on December 18, 2020, 10:21:54 AM
Completely agree with posts calling this unethical. Reminds me of watching 3 guys in Idaho last year shooting at an elk from 1300 yards. Watched them shoot at this elk probably 15 times between em and never saw a bullet connect. And low and behold WA license plates, way to make a good impression smh...Worst part was watching a kid about 13 stand up and run to their truck, grab more ammo and start shooting again. Guys teaching their kids that’s ethical hunting make me sick. Never saw them even hike over and look for blood that day. This whole long range fad is just straight up gross. You have these guys that think that them dumping 5k into a rifle will make their long range shots (that they’ve always missed) magically start to happen. Truth is there is so much more than their money pulling the trigger, reloading, ect. Led alone being able to accurately judge your variables just adds another twist to making these shots unethical shots. I’m sorry but if you can’t put 10 out of 10 bullets into the kill zone you have ZERO business letting it rip at long range. Makes me wonder how many animals get hit and never recovered bc they never look or know if they hit the animal.
:yeah:
To each his own, but to me that is not "hunting" it's target shooting at an animal instead of a target. I can only imagine how may animals are lost due to this type of behavior whether or not the shot was on it's intended mark. What ever happened to "fair chase"? Half the fun of hunting to me is trying to cut the distance and re-locate an animal that is spotted out of ethical range. Way too many variables out of one's control at that range.
Post by: bornhunter on December 18, 2020, 10:22:33 AM
These threads always go the same way with the same tired arguments.
To me nothings beats a screaming bull on a string and I prefer them inside of 20 yards, I want to hear the thud of their hooves and smell that elk piss.
Can't get that experience at 1300 yards
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Post by: bornhunter on December 18, 2020, 10:23:21 AM
Completely agree with posts calling this unethical. Reminds me of watching 3 guys in Idaho last year shooting at an elk from 1300 yards. Watched them shoot at this elk probably 15 times between em and never saw a bullet connect. And low and behold WA license plates, way to make a good impression smh...Worst part was watching a kid about 13 stand up and run to their truck, grab more ammo and start shooting again. Guys teaching their kids that’s ethical hunting make me sick. Never saw them even hike over and look for blood that day. This whole long range fad is just straight up gross. You have these guys that think that them dumping 5k into a rifle will make their long range shots (that they’ve always missed) magically start to happen. Truth is there is so much more than their money pulling the trigger, reloading, ect. Led alone being able to accurately judge your variables just adds another twist to making these shots unethical shots. I’m sorry but if you can’t put 10 out of 10 bullets into the kill zone you have ZERO business letting it rip at long range. Makes me wonder how many animals get hit and never recovered bc they never look or know if they hit the animal.
:yeah:
To each his own, but to me that is not "hunting" it's target shooting at an animal instead of a target. I can only imagine how may animals are lost due to this type of behavior whether or not the shot was on it's intended mark. What ever happened to "fair chase"? Half the fun of hunting to me is trying to cut the distance and re-locate an animal that is spotted out of ethical range. Way too many variables out of one's control at that range.
Post by: cavemann on December 18, 2020, 10:44:12 AM
Man didn't realize we had so many snipers on this forum who have never missed a shot. And if you've ever missed than apparently you were shooting beyond your capabilities. Ive personally been in the woods a lot and y'all are full of crap if you claim you don't miss :chuckle: I'm in no way supporting shooting animals that far, but to chastise this kid for missing his first shot has apparently never been hunting with a kid or even hunting at all because I've seen the cartwheeling legs, limps, dangling jaws, etc that tell stuff happens at a lot closer distances. Hell guys miss moose clean inside 100 yards. Ill never understand this notion that bad things only happen at longer ranges. The ability to miss or wound is not exclusive to distance. By what I saw in that video and what I see at my local range id trust that kid at 800 yards over most guys at 100-200 yards :twocents:
Take the range out of the equation and what I saw was a 12 year old kid who setup fast, got into a solid shooting position, missed, stayed on target, made a correction and got his second shot off accurately. Very impressive for such a young shooter.
Once again, I AM NOT condoning shooting anything but targets at that kind of distance but I feel that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones :twocents:
Carl, I'd never question your experience and value your opinion.. My issue with long distance shots and misses vs 1/4 mile shots is this.. Yes, misses happen far frequent then any of us would like to admit. To me fair chase includes the ability to locate, track and pursue a wounded animal after a bad shot to finish the job. I don't see the ethics or reasonable ability to do the same at these distances.. Sure, even 200, 20 or 75 yard wounded animals disappear. But at least there is reasonable chance to put a spot on where it was standing, look for blood and track.. Just my opinion.. Great skill and shot but its not for me.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 18, 2020, 11:03:20 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 18, 2020, 11:08:09 AM
Or we can just all agree that the only real way to hunt elk is with a bow and move on... :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2020, 11:09:56 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 18, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
We can go back and forth on this all day long and get everyone on both sides worked up... disagree to agree or agree to disagree..
Or we can just all agree that the only real way to hunt elk is with a bow and move on... :chuckle:
:puke: :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2020, 11:11:00 AM
We can go back and forth on this all day long and get everyone on both sides worked up... disagree to agree or agree to disagree..:chuckle: oh man, then we can really get down to discussing an incredible amount of wounded animals and some ethics :peep:
Or we can just all agree that the only real way to hunt elk is with a bow and move on... :chuckle:
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 18, 2020, 11:19:39 AM
We can go back and forth on this all day long and get everyone on both sides worked up... disagree to agree or agree to disagree..:chuckle: oh man, then we can really get down to discussing an incredible amount of wounded animals and some ethics :peep:
Or we can just all agree that the only real way to hunt elk is with a bow and move on... :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Probably get moved to off topics/ politics section so let's try n keep it civil...
Post by: jaymark6655 on December 18, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
As far as energy, I had personal cutoffs that went right out the window as soon as I started using muzzle loader with round ball. Most animals I take now are 250 ft-lbs to 400 at the most.
Was it too far? I don't know, wasn't there and don't know the kid or the setup. By know I mean personally/intimately: having shot the rifle, know what the ammo SDs and what the projectile does at different velocities, watched the kid shoot for months, been in the field looking at the wind push the mirage around or grass. A whole bunch of stuff that can't be seen in a video.
I have missed 4 - 5 deer at ranges under 100 yards. I have also not missed a shot between 100 and 600, so do I have a minimum distance now to be ethical? I do know I spent a lot of the day chasing those deer down to make sure it wasn't a hit. (Mostly because I didn't want to accept I had missed.)
To be fair, one my front sight had almost slid of the barrel and I didn't notice it. Another was archery, still not sure what that arrow hit, but I can tell you it is heart breaking and extremely loud for an arrow to bounce of a rack that big. Others were stupidity on my part.
Would be interesting if all hunters had to pass the Master Hunter proficiency test before they could use that means of harvest.
Post by: cavemann on December 18, 2020, 11:32:57 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree there. The same lazy guy that won't follow up on a long shot isn't gonna do much even at a closer distance. Theres idiots among every user group but at least the guys I know who are into long range are at least putting in some effort to master their craft. The same cannot be said for a LARGE majority of hunters. I stand by my statement that id trust that 12 year old to hold his stuff together and make a long shot vs most grown men inside 200. And like I said in my previous comment I AM IN NO WAY CONDONING SHOOTING ANIMALS THAT FAR but let's call a spade a spade. Probably a decent chunk of folks commenting on this very topic that have some good skeletons in their own closet. My big lost animal story was from just a few years ago at 240 yards. That sure as hell is WELL within my proficiency zone.
I agree with you, it comes down to practice to determine comfort level and most exceed that at the chance at an animal at any level... I'd never debate that people take horrible shots at all ranges. And people miss even within short distance. I hear you there.. I guess I'm just saying my reasons for not liking the LD shots, but I consider 200+ long so there's that!! LOL
Post by: idaho guy on December 18, 2020, 11:37:20 AM
Man didn't realize we had so many snipers on this forum who have never missed a shot. And if you've ever missed than apparently you were shooting beyond your capabilities. Ive personally been in the woods a lot and y'all are full of crap if you claim you don't miss :chuckle: I'm in no way supporting shooting animals that far, but to chastise this kid for missing his first shot has apparently never been hunting with a kid or even hunting at all because I've seen the cartwheeling legs, limps, dangling jaws, etc that tell stuff happens at a lot closer distances. Hell guys miss moose clean inside 100 yards. Ill never understand this notion that bad things only happen at longer ranges. The ability to miss or wound is not exclusive to distance. By what I saw in that video and what I see at my local range id trust that kid at 800 yards over most guys at 100-200 yards :twocents:
Take the range out of the equation and what I saw was a 12 year old kid who setup fast, got into a solid shooting position, missed, stayed on target, made a correction and got his second shot off accurately. Very impressive for such a young shooter.
Once again, I AM NOT condoning shooting anything but targets at that kind of distance but I feel that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones :twocents:
Carl, I'd never question your experience and value your opinion.. My issue with long distance shots and misses vs 1/4 mile shots is this.. Yes, misses happen far frequent then any of us would like to admit. To me fair chase includes the ability to locate, track and pursue a wounded animal after a bad shot to finish the job. I don't see the ethics or reasonable ability to do the same at these distances.. Sure, even 200, 20 or 75 yard wounded animals disappear. But at least there is reasonable chance to put a spot on where it was standing, look for blood and track.. Just my opinion.. Great skill and shot but its not for me.
I agree with Karl on this. I have seen way too much crappy shooting at short range to ever criticize someone for taking a long range shot :chuckle: That's only if they have shot a lot at that range and also have the right equipment. I have done a lot of longer range shooting but have limited myself to 700 yards and under on live animals thats just where I feel pretty confident in efficiently killing stuff. I am not sure 700 yards is even considered long range shooting anymore . In the same season I shot my moose bedded at a little over 650 yards(one shot and he rolled over) and missed a small bull elk at 50 yards broadside with the same rifle! I smelled some elk so I did a few cow calls and bull appears at point blank range so i just rushed it and point and shoot and he walks off :chuckle: If we hunt alot AND we are honest about it we all have made bad shots for whatever reason. If you have never made a bad shot at any range you need to hunt more ha ha. I hate when an animal is wounded but in reality it will happen to the best of us. The one thing that really bothers me is I don't think a lot of so called long range hunters really take the effort to hike all the way to the animal and verify a clean miss. I also agree that too many hunters buy a 5k rifle and think they can suddenly shoot everything they see at 1000 yards. I see both sides of the argument but dont feel like any of us had the right to instantly criticize another hunter for actually killing a bull at extreme long range. I love getting close with and arrow and also shooting stuff at longer range its just as satisfying to me just a different way of hunting. Disclaimer I have hit elk bad at 10 yards with an arrow too and shoot consistently out to 80 yards all summer. Crap happens in the woods. At the end of the day the kid kept his composure after a miss and then made an awesome shot. Carry on!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2020, 11:43:14 AM
Post by: Stein on December 18, 2020, 11:51:36 AM
They don't say what bullet, Gunwerks manufactures 7mm Rem Mag in ELD-M 180 grain, so let's pick that. I'll guess 3100 fps. 10 mph drift at target is 82", so for every 1 mph your wind guess is wrong, the impact moves 8"! Measure 10mph and the cumulative to target is actually 15, you are off 40" and that would be a pretty accurate guess.
You can calculate everything but wind. Unless the wind is zero (which it never is), there is no way to take a 1,376 yard shot with any reasonable expectation your first shot will hit. You measure at your location, look for clues between you and the target, make a guess, plug it in, send one and see where you missed and then adjust. It's just the way it is, it's not a first shot game.
Ethics are personal and we can argue about that, but it's just not accurate to say maybe the person could make a first shot hit a high percentage of the time. It's not about practice or equipment, you just can't make those until someone invents forward looking LIDAR that is small enough to mount on a rifle.
Post by: bigdub257 on December 18, 2020, 12:10:16 PM
What are the odds of a first round hit in the vitals at that distance in those conditions? 20%, 10%, less? If one is ok with that, they are saying they realize there is an 80% or greater chance they will either miss or put a bad hit on an animal and are comfortable with that.Well stated! Couldn't agree more. Way too risky considering all of the variables, especially on a live animal.
They don't say what bullet, Gunwerks manufactures 7mm Rem Mag in ELD-M 180 grain, so let's pick that. I'll guess 3100 fps. 10 mph drift at target is 82", so for every 1 mph your wind guess is wrong, the impact moves 8"! Measure 10mph and the cumulative to target is actually 15, you are off 40" and that would be a pretty accurate guess.
You can calculate everything but wind. Unless the wind is zero (which it never is), there is no way to take a 1,376 yard shot with any reasonable expectation your first shot will hit. You measure at your location, look for clues between you and the target, make a guess, plug it in, send one and see where you missed and then adjust. It's just the way it is, it's not a first shot game.
Ethics are personal and we can argue about that, but it's just not accurate to say maybe the person could make a first shot hit a high percentage of the time. It's not about practice or equipment, you just can't make those until someone invents forward looking LIDAR that is small enough to mount on a rifle.
I just watched that video again and maybe it's just me, but that kid didn't seem to be very excited about his kill. I guess everybody reacts differently. Like I said before, to each his own.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 18, 2020, 12:11:24 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 18, 2020, 12:42:53 PM
First, the young man appears to be a terrific marksman. I have no doubt he is highly skilled, and he shoots great equipment.
I also 100% agree with what Karl brought up about people missing well inside of 200 yards. It happens a lot. A LOT.
I guess I just think that a person need a "high likelihood of success" to take a shot. Whether that is a bow, and you're confident to 20 or 30 or 40 or 80 yards.
Or a muzzleloader to 50 or 100 or 200.
Probably dont want me to get started on how many incompetent muzzleloader folks I've seen that can't hit the kill zone at 50 yards.
Or a high power rifle at 100 or 1000 or 2000.
Bottom line:
1. An ethical kill shot should ALWAYS be the expectation.
2. Ability varies GREATLY.... as does practice time.
3. Regardless of weapon type, you can choose to confine yourself to ethical shots with high probability of kill and recovery....... or not.
4. I dont expect perfection from my friends or hunting partners, but I have quit hunting with a guy or two who simply miss and main too much.
5. 1300 yards with a 7mm. Holy crap! Congratulations young man. A ton of practice went into that shot. Not on my best day. :-)
Post by: Igor on December 18, 2020, 12:46:27 PM
At the end of the day the kid kept his composure after a miss and then made an awesome shot. Carry on!
If he had missed 3,4,5 times before the kill shot, would you still be high-fiving him? Or does he just get his Mulligan after one miss?
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 18, 2020, 12:51:58 PM
Would be interesting if all hunters had to pass the Master Hunter proficiency test before they could use that means of harvest.
I'd rather suck wax fruit than subscribe to anything related to the MH program.
Post by: dvolmer on December 18, 2020, 12:55:12 PM
There should be a law against this type of "hunting". Whatever happened to clean kills? He missed the first shot. Tells you that shot should never have been taken. There are so many factors at play on a bullet traveling that far that it is ridiculous to take a shot like that. Shame on his dad for encouraging this type of bad behavior.I agree! You also never know with all the editing what really went down. If it is so far that you miss it completely on the first shot, what's to say the second shot is in the butt, Lower leg, guts, etc. I'm not against some long range shooting (I don't participate in it myself. 400 yards is my max) but this is just a little to much if you ask me. But who is asking me??? :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on December 18, 2020, 01:25:48 PM
Post by: idaho guy on December 18, 2020, 01:37:07 PM
At the end of the day the kid kept his composure after a miss and then made an awesome shot. Carry on!
If he had missed 3,4,5 times before the kill shot, would you still be high-fiving him? Or does he just get his Mulligan after one miss?
No
I’m not high fiving him for 1 miss either :chuckle: I think dan o is right the expectation should be for an ethical kill shot no matter the circumstances. I have never seen a long range shot on the internet that wasn’t criticized by a bunch of people for some reason or another. No one here knows the circumstances leading up to the shot or the actual conditions like wind, ballistics etc. Maybe he makes that shot in the same conditions regular 9 out of 10 times on steel. Is he less ethical than the guy who barely hits a pie plate at 100 shooting a deer at 200? I don’t think any of us are so perfect in every shot we take that we have the right to be the judge and jury on others shot choices. That’s all I am saying. Actually one more thing it is irritating when people say long range hunting isn’t hunting it’s just a different way of hunting and requires a different skill set. I would never take that shot but it doesn’t mean I get to be the ethics police. I see the major problems with long range shooting done the wrong way too. Like I already said I see both sides of the issue.The expectation should be an ethical shot based on that person’s ability and equipment not what we declare as ethical based on our limited abilities or just some belief we have.
Post by: huntnfmly on December 18, 2020, 02:26:56 PM
They also build a 800yrd muzzy
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on December 18, 2020, 02:33:45 PM
Missing happens at all ranges. Personally I wouldn't shoot at elk or deer at that distance due to too many variables. I love target shooting to 1500 and bow shooting to 100yds. That said I missed my biggest bull at 11 yds.... it haunts me. Regardless, shooting that far at elk probably shouldn't be encouraged. I'm sure all the videos of maimed elk or missed elk are not shown... it would hurt their whole business model.I've seen a lot of hunting videos of guys making really terrible shots at much closer ranges that get neatly edited too though :dunno:
I was referring to the Gunwerks business model, not the "Bob and Hottie" shows. They can get away with a lot more inconsistencies and still keep their audience.
Post by: Goshawk on December 18, 2020, 02:45:17 PM
Somebody taught their son how to shoot long range.
I taught my kids not to make eye contact and keep their faces down till the bull looked the other way then draw back the bow... Unto each their own.
Post by: sjhgraysage on December 18, 2020, 06:08:16 PM
Post by: jdb on December 18, 2020, 06:21:38 PM
i don’t agree with the long range shot but I agree with that statement!!
Would be interesting if all hunters had to pass the Master Hunter proficiency test before they could use that means of harvest.
I'd rather suck wax fruit than subscribe to anything related to the MH program.
Post by: treefarmer on December 18, 2020, 06:29:57 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 19, 2020, 08:39:22 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on December 19, 2020, 09:23:46 AM
Completely disagree ( with Pegasus).Where do you draw the line? 500 yards? 1000 yards?
That video has made the rounds. Kid did his part on the trigger no doubt. Lot of cash went into that set up.
I draw the line at 1500 ft lbs for elk. He was at 1070 ( assuming 195s at 6000 ft) My lapua with 300 gr is double that for same shot.
I don't think those guys run 195's. Not sure about that exact setup but I know they normally like 168's for 7saums and Rem mags, and 180's for LRMs and 28's. My guess is this was an LRM/180 since the vid is a few years old.
As far as ethics... definitely too far for my taste, but I'd be willing to bet that the "elk shot at vs. elk in the truck" ratio for their crew far exceeds that of the average joe weekend warrior so it is what it is. Guys who eat sleep and breathe long range hunting doing what they do is the least of my worries.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 19, 2020, 01:01:08 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 19, 2020, 03:04:05 PM
Post by: Igor on December 19, 2020, 03:11:31 PM
Would I do this? No, I couldn't, actually. Would I take a 100-yd shot with my bow? No. Are there people who do these things with regular success? Yes. Who am I to tell another that they must adhere to my standards of hunting? No, I'm not Hunting God, either. Support other hunters even when they do things of which you're incapable.
In this case, do you think they are showing respect for the animal they are "hunting". Serious question.
Post by: Mtnwalker on December 19, 2020, 05:03:38 PM
Would I do this? No, I couldn't, actually. Would I take a 100-yd shot with my bow? No. Are there people who do these things with regular success? Yes. Who am I to tell another that they must adhere to my standards of hunting? No, I'm not Hunting God, either. Support other hunters even when they do things of which you're incapable.
In this case, do you think they are showing respect for the animal they are "hunting". Serious question.
I think that honing your craft, however you choose to pursue them, is showing respect to the animals. Putting in the time (not to mention money), practicing day in and day out, being as good as you can possibly be with your chosen weapon. Shots like that don't just happen by spinning the turrets and flinging lead. Sure the kid missed the first time, but he's also a 12 year old shooting at his biggest bull. I would have been crapping myself having that bull in my scope at 12. I'll admit that this shot was pushing it a bit, but like I said before... give me a choice of that crew at 1375, or pick a random archery tag holder out of a hat and put that bull at 60, and I'll tell you which one I'm putting my money on... :chuckle:
Post by: pd on December 19, 2020, 05:17:40 PM
He was criticizing the type of rifle that other hunters occasionally carry. You know, the ones that supposedly can hold 30 rounds in the clip. (Ignore the caliber and actual number of rounds.)
He lost my interest when he said that: "It should be against the law to hunt with anything but a wooden stocked rifle..."
True story. I wonder if any of you offended hunters agree with this sentiment.
To each his own. The young man is with his father, and he is apparently a minor. His father gets to make the judgement call, whatever happens after that is none of your cotton-picking business.
Post by: elkrack on December 19, 2020, 06:32:11 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2020, 09:48:16 AM
Would I do this? No, I couldn't, actually. Would I take a 100-yd shot with my bow? No. Are there people who do these things with regular success? Yes. Who am I to tell another that they must adhere to my standards of hunting? No, I'm not Hunting God, either. Support other hunters even when they do things of which you're incapable.
In this case, do you think they are showing respect for the animal they are "hunting". Serious question.
Yes, the amount of practice it takes to be able to perform a shot like that shows respect, as opposed to just going out with a computer and no practice and expecting the same result. This specific hunt, I suspect, took not only a great deal of shooting but conditioning, as well. There are thousands of hunters here in WA who don't work that hard to put it together.
Post by: Pegasus on December 20, 2020, 09:54:42 AM
All I can say is that I was way more excited than that kid when I shot my first elk and it was a cow :chuckle:
The kid probably thinks he is playing video at that distance. No stalk, no sneak, no up close and personal. Just a speck in the dirt on the opposite hill. He was probably surprised when he did not see a score increase in his scope for hitting a target.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 20, 2020, 10:11:09 AM
Post by: h20hunter on December 20, 2020, 10:15:24 AM
Just another example of putting our own ideas of ethics on a perfectly legal and successful hunt. Let's find the video...it's all over of the kid that drills an elk, frontal, bleeds out, falls om it's face. Kid clearly took a high risk shot in a massively unethical manner and should have his bow confiscated and burned.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 20, 2020, 11:39:41 AM
thats a pretty bold and frankly absurd comment. Maybe he's just a shy kid :dunno: I've mentored a lot of youth hunters over the years and every one of them reacted to death differently. This particular kid was high up in the wyoming mountains. He's high stepping up and down drainage and your you're busting his chops about video games? Poor form sir.All I can say is that I was way more excited than that kid when I shot my first elk and it was a cow :chuckle:
The kid probably thinks he is playing video at that distance. No stalk, no sneak, no up close and personal. Just a speck in the dirt on the opposite hill. He was probably surprised when he did not see a score increase in his scope for hitting a target.
Also, you are a grown man insulting a child on the internet. Let that sink in for a bit :chuckle: :o
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on December 20, 2020, 11:50:20 AM
Post by: Pegasus on December 20, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
thats a pretty bold and frankly absurd comment. Maybe he's just a shy kid :dunno: I've mentored a lot of youth hunters over the years and every one of them reacted to death differently. This particular kid was high up in the wyoming mountains. He's high stepping up and down drainage and your you're busting his chops about video games? Poor form sir.All I can say is that I was way more excited than that kid when I shot my first elk and it was a cow :chuckle:
The kid probably thinks he is playing video at that distance. No stalk, no sneak, no up close and personal. Just a speck in the dirt on the opposite hill. He was probably surprised when he did not see a score increase in his scope for hitting a target.
Also, you are a grown man insulting a child on the internet. Let that sink in for a bit :chuckle: :o
Sorry Karl but you will never convince me that shooting an elk at that distance is an ethical thing to be doing either for kids or adults. Too many factors involved to consider it ethical behavior. Sorry if pointing out reality bothers you. Steel targets.. heck ya. Knock yourself out shooting at distant steel targets. Real animals, heck no. If he had gimped the elk like he almost did on the first shot how long to get over there and find the animal to put it out of its misery? How many animals are actually wounded by this method that the shooters never even bother to search for blood? I have seen that happen more than once. Videos like this just encourage bad behavior. Let that sink in.
Post by: h20hunter on December 20, 2020, 12:13:30 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 20, 2020, 12:15:21 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 20, 2020, 12:16:49 PM
70% 90% 99%
If you are a muzzy, bow hunter or 1000 yd shooter you can’t pick a number over 90% by definition. Or maybe 70%
:stirthepot: :stirthepot:
Post by: Dan-o on December 20, 2020, 12:40:44 PM
Where did I ever say that it was acceptable behavior? I sure didn't and you sure won't ever see me support shots like that. Your comment was directly pointed at his lack of excitement. You quoted elkracks comment about lack of excitement then took some jabs at the kid about not realizing reality wasn't a video game. Theow heat at his old man but to internet bully a 12 year old is just cowardly.
The young man "looked" cool as a cucumber.
I suspect he was as excited as the rest of us - but his ability to focus and concentrate is impressive, and he has clearly trained with that rifle to know and trust his capability.
Personally, I have to hand it to him for handling the pressure.
Heck, I've shot a few elk out to 400 yards with a few different forum members watching.
I'm willing to admit that I felt some extra pressure.
I suspect having cameras rolling and multiple spotters has to up the pressure.
I'm not a fan of shooting at that distance, but I can appreciate the acquired skill.
Post by: Pegasus on December 20, 2020, 01:21:16 PM
Where did I ever say that it was acceptable behavior? I sure didn't and you sure won't ever see me support shots like that. Your comment was directly pointed at his lack of excitement. You quoted elkracks comment about lack of excitement then took some jabs at the kid about not realizing reality wasn't a video game. Theow heat at his old man but to internet bully a 12 year old is just cowardly.
Haha. Nice try Karl. It is an old video and the kid did not post it here. I am not posting with the kid and "bullying" him. Maybe if he does see the post someday he might realize something that evidently his dad did not teach him about ethics. Videos like that should be removed from the internet because they promote bad behavior. :chuckle: The kid might make a great sniper someday but we are talking about hunting game animals and not humans. You don't think promoting a video like that encourages more bad behavior by others now that you have stated you don't support shots like that?
Post by: b23 on December 20, 2020, 07:30:23 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 20, 2020, 07:39:29 PM
Where did I ever say that it was acceptable behavior? I sure didn't and you sure won't ever see me support shots like that. Your comment was directly pointed at his lack of excitement. You quoted elkracks comment about lack of excitement then took some jabs at the kid about not realizing reality wasn't a video game. Theow heat at his old man but to internet bully a 12 year old is just cowardly.
Haha. Nice try Karl. It is an old video and the kid did not post it here. I am not posting with the kid and "bullying" him. Maybe if he does see the post someday he might realize something that evidently his dad did not teach him about ethics. Videos like that should be removed from the internet because they promote bad behavior. :chuckle: The kid might make a great sniper someday but we are talking about hunting game animals and not humans. You don't think promoting a video like that encourages more bad behavior by others now that you have stated you don't support shots like that?
No need to cancel the video since the internet has folks like you willing to donate their time and ethics to fact check it.
Post by: hunter399 on December 20, 2020, 08:16:02 PM
With any kind of TV show there is always some fast editing ,it's hard to say how many shots are taken before an animal hits the ground. EVERY time one shot drop every time ,does that really happen.Most guide will put you on animals at a reasonable distance ,we got to back it up so we can sell a few more rifles ,is that what we call ethics.
These rifles are so great,even a kid can do it. A kid that has had more practice behind the trigger than most people will have in a life time.
Selling rifles or ethics you be the judge.
With that said I'm not totally against it.If you are capable and have enough energy behind your bullet to do the job.
So it was a great shot. :tup:
Post by: Stein on December 20, 2020, 08:35:59 PM
No way of proving this but I'd put my money on betting more animals are wounded on shots taken from 0-600 yards than on shots taken at 1000+ yards.
Very true. Also more car accidents on I-5 in LA than on the Alcan highway. Not too many people launching them at 1400 yards, fewer still that are good enough to even hit it at all. Ironically, at that distance you have to be a very good shot with a great rifle to wound one it if it's a lone animal. Unfortunately, nobody on the planet is making high percentage first round kills at that distance either, so the blade cuts both ways.
Post by: idaho guy on December 21, 2020, 12:42:28 PM
Where did I ever say that it was acceptable behavior? I sure didn't and you sure won't ever see me support shots like that. Your comment was directly pointed at his lack of excitement. You quoted elkracks comment about lack of excitement then took some jabs at the kid about not realizing reality wasn't a video game. Theow heat at his old man but to internet bully a 12 year old is just cowardly.
The young man "looked" cool as a cucumber.
I suspect he was as excited as the rest of us - but his ability to focus and concentrate is impressive, and he has clearly trained with that rifle to know and trust his capability.
Personally, I have to hand it to him for handling the pressure.
Heck, I've shot a few elk out to 400 yards with a few different forum members watching.
I'm willing to admit that I felt some extra pressure.
I suspect having cameras rolling and multiple spotters has to up the pressure.
I'm not a fan of shooting at that distance, but I can appreciate the acquired skill.
:yeah: I was impressed with how he handled pressure also. I have felt the extra nerves with just a few buddies watching and was filmed one time. Its reality that being on film seriously ups the nerves and potentially complicates a lot of things leading up to and even taking the shot. I would not take that shot but can appreciate that kids ability . I dont personally understand the debate of hunting being only if I stalk in close vs I shoot long range. I guess its because I really enjoy both ways of hunting both completely different but just as satisfying to me. Maybe because i do both every year and wouldnt ever want to give up either method. I don't really qualify as a long range hunter in todays world but feel good if I stretch out to 700 yards max with most of my "long range" shots in the 400-600 range. Feels good after growing up with a 30-30 and then "graduating" to a 30-06 anything over 200 was extreme long range to us back then :chuckle: If i can get closer with a rifle I always do but its nice just to shoot cross canyon when you realize there is no high percentage way to close the gap.
Post by: Bob33 on December 21, 2020, 12:47:46 PM
With equipment like this 12 year old has, and the right training and practice at what distance would my 90% standard become unattainable?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 21, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
I have a question for the experts in long-range shooting. My standard on big game is to only take shots in which I believe I have at least a 90% chance that the first shot will hit vitals and result in a clean, quick kill.I dont know if there could ever be a number to answer thar question. It would all depend on the specifics at each opportunity. Shooting position, atmospheric conditions, to some extent terrain, would all come into play.
With equipment like this 12 year old has, and the right training and practice at what distance would my 90% standard become unattainable?
Equipment wise, that gun is very capable i am sure. A 1/2 moa rifle with a very consistent and stable ammunition will put the bullets on a small spot way out there, but conditions and the booger hook operator can make it seem much worse.
Post by: Stein on December 21, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
I have a question for the experts in long-range shooting. My standard on big game is to only take shots in which I believe I have at least a 90% chance that the first shot will hit vitals and result in a clean, quick kill.
With equipment like this 12 year old has, and the right training and practice at what distance would my 90% standard become unattainable?
Assuming a good gun (well sub 1/2 MOA) and a shooter, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the wind call. It's the reason nobody will get a 90% first hit rate at 1400 yards unless you are on the surface of the moon. It's simply something that can't be calculated or figured with the level of precision required to stay in a 24x24" target unless it is dead calm, which pretty much never happens.
Hard to say what distance that happens, wind is a variable and you can't calculate out the distance because you never know how far you are off until you send one. With normal bullet spread, if you have a .5 MOA rifle you can calculate how far before you go more than 12" from point of aim, but with wind you can't.
For sure, the more wind, the smaller the number would be, but at that distance even 1-2 mph off on the speed or angle on your guess is going to do really bad things.
Nobody talks about the 800 pound gorilla though, Achilles heal for sure.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 21, 2020, 02:04:12 PM
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 21, 2020, 02:13:20 PM
I have a question for the experts in long-range shooting. My standard on big game is to only take shots in which I believe I have at least a 90% chance that the first shot will hit vitals and result in a clean, quick kill.
With equipment like this 12 year old has, and the right training and practice at what distance would my 90% standard become unattainable?
Shooting long range one learns that the wind controls whether to shoot or not. In mountains and across valleys any wind is so variable that each 1 mph starts knocking about 100 yards off my confidence range.
And then bullet energy is a concern - if you want 1500 ft lbs on Elk then that limits his apparent equipment to about 1200 yards at 8000 ft elevation but 900 yards at sea level.
And then accuracy - if you look at precision rifle blog study you see that hit percentage on a 20" circle at 1000 yards runs 75% for a .5 moa rifle calling wind +/- 2 mph.
So 90% confidence on the first shot is really tough at 1000 yards. But given two shots the 90% range could go out even further.
I'll bet he was 90% confident he would get it in the first two shots.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 21, 2020, 02:27:38 PM
You keep quoting energy but dont have any way to possibly know that info... obviously in this case he did have the required energy to effectively kill that elk.I have a question for the experts in long-range shooting. My standard on big game is to only take shots in which I believe I have at least a 90% chance that the first shot will hit vitals and result in a clean, quick kill.
With equipment like this 12 year old has, and the right training and practice at what distance would my 90% standard become unattainable?
Shooting long range one learns that the wind controls whether to shoot or not. In mountains and across valleys any wind is so variable that each 1 mph starts knocking about 100 yards off my confidence range.
And then bullet energy is a concern - if you want 1500 ft lbs on Elk then that limits his apparent equipment to about 1200 yards at 8000 ft elevation but 900 yards at sea level.
And then accuracy - if you look at precision rifle blog study you see that hit percentage on a 20" circle at 1000 yards runs 75% for a .5 moa rifle calling wind +/- 2 mph.
So 90% confidence on the first shot is really tough at 1000 yards. But given two shots the 90% range could go out even further.
I'll bet he was 90% confident he would get it in the first two shots.
Do you have any real evidence or proof that it takes 1500 to kill elk? I see that number thrown around all the time and nobody can answer why.
Post by: Stein on December 21, 2020, 02:36:38 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 21, 2020, 02:53:09 PM
My personal rule - super high confidence level at half my practice distance. So for rifle, with a lot of trigger time at 1200-1500 and some at 2k and beyond my real world scenario zone is 600-700 yds for high percentage kill shot regardless what I'm shooting at...Beyond that is doable but the kill shot percentage drops..
Also as I've aged I'm less likely to take iffy shots. I'm content on passing on animal's if the shot is not nearly 100 percent. I don't need the meat bad enough to chance loosing an animal. :twocents:
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 21, 2020, 03:05:39 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 21, 2020, 03:57:28 PM
Also wdfw thinks shooting at animals at 1k and farther is unethical for what it's worth.
Not much, unless it's law (and enforceable)
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 21, 2020, 05:20:11 PM
You keep quoting energy but dont have any way to possibly know that info...
Normally that would be the case but they tell the caliber and their their biz is built around that specific caliber with a specific rifle and load so the only variable is elevation. Since they were in Wyoming use 8000 ft and punch numbers into a ballistic app and gotta be pretty close.
Post by: elksnout on December 21, 2020, 07:05:41 PM
I actually learned my rifles true muzzle velocity with the bullet I've chosen. Learned how to set paralax on my scope and to "dope my scope" for the current conditions. Body/spine alignment with the rifles bore, etc. And many other tips to make me a more confident shooter. I shot my buck at 370 yards across a draw while he was bedded in an aspen thicket. Had a clear shot at his vitals and the buck never knew what hit him. I don't think that I've concentrated more to take any shot at a live animal than I did that day. I knew that I only had one good shot. Miss or worse getting a follow up shot that far away in the cover he was in would have been difficult at best.
Had I not taken the shooting class and practiced I never would have shot. Having said that I will also say that I'm still not a long range hunter. 400, possibly 450 yards with perfect conditions....maybe. I still feel that too many things can go wrong which could make putting down that animal quickly difficult if not impossible. But that's me who I know very well.
I'll keep my thoughts to myself on that kid with the 1,376 yard shot to myself.
Elksnout
Post by: idaho guy on December 21, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
I'm sure the spotters talked about the wind quite a bit.
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
How far in yards is a “ways” away :chuckle:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 21, 2020, 07:47:39 PM
:-X :bfg:I'm sure the spotters talked about the wind quite a bit.
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
How far in yards is a “ways” away :chuckle:
Post by: coachcw on December 22, 2020, 06:54:19 AM
Post by: ballpark on December 22, 2020, 01:11:09 PM
I wish I had the time, experience and equipment it took to make that shot. We all know or should know the work it took before hand to have the confidence and ability to make that shot. :tup:
Post by: snake on December 22, 2020, 03:52:02 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 22, 2020, 04:14:11 PM
:-X :bfg:I'm sure the spotters talked about the wind quite a bit.
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
How far in yards is a “ways” away :chuckle:
Did you get thrown under the bus... :chuckle:
Post by: Mr Mykiss on December 22, 2020, 05:20:11 PM
What about the guy who shoots a box of ammo a year and another half box at running deer at 200 yards? I agree we should stick to our limitations but that crap occurs at all skill levelsBut what if I hit him with my last shot...will that make me instafamous?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 22, 2020, 05:35:24 PM
I typically kill my animals with my last shot. Just like lost items are always found in the last place you look. :chuckle:What about the guy who shoots a box of ammo a year and another half box at running deer at 200 yards? I agree we should stick to our limitations but that crap occurs at all skill levelsBut what if I hit him with my last shot...will that make me instafamous?
Post by: idaho guy on December 22, 2020, 09:02:07 PM
:-X :bfg:I'm sure the spotters talked about the wind quite a bit.
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
How far in yards is a “ways” away :chuckle:
Is that Sign language for around 1300 to 1400 yards ? :chuckle:
Post by: meatwhack on December 23, 2020, 10:44:51 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on December 23, 2020, 11:03:03 AM
The good thing about shots at this distance is the bullets don’t do much damage so if you miss the vitals there’s a decent chance the animal will survive at least for a while.
Yeah, a 180 Berger at that distance only has a little more energy than a .44 mag at point blank. Definitely not enough to do any damage :o
Post by: ballpark on December 23, 2020, 11:06:50 AM
Haters are going to hate :hello:
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on December 23, 2020, 11:10:28 AM
The good thing about shots at this distance is the bullets don’t do much damage so if you miss the vitals there’s a decent chance the animal will survive at least for a while.
Yeah, a 180 Berger at that distance only has a little more energy than a .44 mag at point blank. Definitely not enough to do any damage.
I know of a long distance shooter that shot at a buck 800 yds away at dusk. Did not see the animal drop and went back the next morning and found the buck laying there with it's jaw shot off ALIVE. Just because you don't hit the vitals does not mean the animal survives and does not suffer and die an agonizing death.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 23, 2020, 11:14:21 AM
The good thing about shots at this distance is the bullets don’t do much damage so if you miss the vitals there’s a decent chance the animal will survive at least for a while.
Yeah, a 180 Berger at that distance only has a little more energy than a .44 mag at point blank. Definitely not enough to do any damage.
I know of a long distance shooter that shot at a buck 800 yds away at dusk. Did not see the animal drop and went back the next morning and found the buck laying there with it's jaw shot off ALIVE. Just because you don't hit the vitals does not mean the animal survives and does not suffer and die an agonizing death.
Gross
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 23, 2020, 11:28:53 AM
Sloppy hunters are sloppy hunters regardless of distance. Those two never found a rest, never attempted any form of accuracy and absolutely did not follow up their shots to check for blood. First shot was only 75-125ish down the hill from them :bash:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 23, 2020, 12:32:22 PM
nah nothing like that. Thats outside my comfort zone by a substantial amount. If that was the case i would have kept the wind call to myself.:-X :bfg:I'm sure the spotters talked about the wind quite a bit.
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
How far in yards is a “ways” away :chuckle:
Is that Sign language for around 1300 to 1400 yards ? :chuckle:
The shot i called for was further than i have personally shot an animal tho. I am decently confident in my wind calling ability to a point.
Post by: Stein on December 23, 2020, 12:36:53 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 23, 2020, 12:57:13 PM
Any tips for calling wind across a canyon? In my mind, that's probably the most tricky since you are trying to predict what the wind would be potentially a couple hundred feet above ground and I know from my occupation that it often changes dramatically and unpredictably very quickly when you get above just a few feet.Lots of experience... :chuckle:
You have good cues both at your location and at the target location as far as direction and intensity of wind, you can also watch far above, below, or sidehill to the target (like 100 yards or further from the target) and if all indications agree you can make a good educated call. If all of the cues do not agree or tell you different things it is different. A guy can look at the wind direction at shooters location and make assumptions based on topography between there and the target. Terrain features will definitely bend wind to a degree both in horizontal and vertical planes. The shot that the jon referenced had a vertical wind hold and a horizontal wind hold, and without the lull at the time of the shot, that shot would not have been doable.
I am not at all claiming to be an expert, just trying to share what works for me and what i personally look for and at. For the record i do not condone shots like in this video, but it clearly worked for them that time.
Post by: idaho guy on December 23, 2020, 12:58:22 PM
nah nothing like that. Thats outside my comfort zone by a substantial amount. If that was the case i would have kept the wind call to myself.:-X :bfg:I'm sure the spotters talked about the wind quite a bit.
This year in the mountains, @BULLBLASTER spent about 45 minutes watching the 800lb gorilla(wind).. Call was accurate and the deer was super dead. In that situation the hunters could have either been a "ways" away or about 28 feet for a shot.
Dead calm happens too, its the only reason I've taken a handful of shots :twocents:
How far in yards is a “ways” away :chuckle:
Is that Sign language for around 1300 to 1400 yards ? :chuckle:
The shot i called for was further than i have personally shot an animal tho. I am decently confident in my wind calling ability to a point.
:tup: Fair enough! I did want to the yardage out of you though ha ha. I’m glad you got a personal best on a longer range shot. That always a rewarding hunt for me.
Post by: Stein on December 23, 2020, 01:18:08 PM
Any tips for calling wind across a canyon? In my mind, that's probably the most tricky since you are trying to predict what the wind would be potentially a couple hundred feet above ground and I know from my occupation that it often changes dramatically and unpredictably very quickly when you get above just a few feet.Lots of experience... :chuckle:
You have good cues both at your location and at the target location as far as direction and intensity of wind, you can also watch far above, below, or sidehill to the target (like 100 yards or further from the target) and if all indications agree you can make a good educated call. If all of the cues do not agree or tell you different things it is different. A guy can look at the wind direction at shooters location and make assumptions based on topography between there and the target. Terrain features will definitely bend wind to a degree both in horizontal and vertical planes. The shot that the jon referenced had a vertical wind hold and a horizontal wind hold, and without the lull at the time of the shot, that shot would not have been doable.
I am not at all claiming to be an expert, just trying to share what works for me and what i personally look for and at. For the record i do not condone shots like in this video, but it clearly worked for them that time.
We have tons of towers all over the US and gather wind data at multiple heights. Even on flat ground, windspeed is very different at 5m, 20m and 100m. Depending on the weather and location, it's usually more higher, but not always and there can be significant shear in some locations. Towers in complex terrain (not flat or obstacles like trees) can be extremely difficult to predict, hence the need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get wind data before investing in an area.
I always thought a shot over a canyon would be the hardest to call because for a 1,000 yard shot, you only have indications of what the wind is doing the first maybe 30 yards and the last 30 yards, the 940 in between is a big mystery, probably higher, possibly much higher than what the trees and grass are showing.
It will probably only be a matter of time before LIDAR technology gets compact enough to have a unit you could carry into the field. It's already replacing anemometers as the accuracy and technology has increased exponentially in the last 5-7 years.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 23, 2020, 01:23:32 PM
I dunno about any of that equipment you talked about, i just like to go shoot and sometimes its windy. :chuckle: At the ranges i am confident at i typically have a window of a few mph at least to keep on target.Any tips for calling wind across a canyon? In my mind, that's probably the most tricky since you are trying to predict what the wind would be potentially a couple hundred feet above ground and I know from my occupation that it often changes dramatically and unpredictably very quickly when you get above just a few feet.Lots of experience... :chuckle:
You have good cues both at your location and at the target location as far as direction and intensity of wind, you can also watch far above, below, or sidehill to the target (like 100 yards or further from the target) and if all indications agree you can make a good educated call. If all of the cues do not agree or tell you different things it is different. A guy can look at the wind direction at shooters location and make assumptions based on topography between there and the target. Terrain features will definitely bend wind to a degree both in horizontal and vertical planes. The shot that the jon referenced had a vertical wind hold and a horizontal wind hold, and without the lull at the time of the shot, that shot would not have been doable.
I am not at all claiming to be an expert, just trying to share what works for me and what i personally look for and at. For the record i do not condone shots like in this video, but it clearly worked for them that time.
We have tons of towers all over the US and gather wind data at multiple heights. Even on flat ground, windspeed is very different at 5m, 20m and 100m. Depending on the weather and location, it's usually more higher, but not always and there can be significant shear in some locations. Towers in complex terrain (not flat or obstacles like trees) can be extremely difficult to predict, hence the need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get wind data before investing in an area.
I always thought a shot over a canyon would be the hardest to call because for a 1,000 yard shot, you only have indications of what the wind is doing the first maybe 30 yards and the last 30 yards, the 940 in between is a big mystery, probably higher, possibly much higher than what the trees and grass are showing.
It will probably only be a matter of time before LIDAR technology gets compact enough to have a unit you could carry into the field. It's already replacing anemometers as the accuracy and technology has increased exponentially in the last 5-7 years.
Post by: Stein on December 23, 2020, 01:33:39 PM
LIDAR works like radar, but uses a laser. It picks up tiny dust particles in the air and can tell you how fast the wind is blowing. It's kind of like a cop's handheld radar except it instead of checking the speed of cars, it is independently tracking millions of dust particles from close up to far away.
Normally they are on the ground pointing up and you can get windspeed at any elevation. They are also mounted to the nose of wind turbines looking forward and can tell the windspeed at any horizontal distance. Software then takes the data and spits out whatever you want to know.
Cool technology, if you had one mounted to the top of a scope with an electronic trigger and compensating crosshairs, you could be as lethal as the movies.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 23, 2020, 01:48:00 PM
IF and I mean IF I had to take a 1400 yard poke at a critter, like gun to my head type deal, id send a sighter shot and then make my correction based off that.
Post by: callturner on December 23, 2020, 02:14:20 PM
Post by: h20hunter on December 23, 2020, 02:48:22 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on December 23, 2020, 03:45:15 PM
Post by: Igor on December 23, 2020, 03:59:38 PM
I feel like this thread is just the same 8 comments on continuous loop :chuckle:
Sorta like Ground Hog Day ??
Post by: bigdub257 on December 23, 2020, 04:08:58 PM
IF and I mean IF I had to take a 1400 yard poke at a critter, like gun to my head type deal, id send a sighter shot and then make my correction based off that.
:yeah:
Like maybe do your experimenting/guesstimating/dialing in on something other than the animal.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 23, 2020, 04:25:17 PM
I wonder how many critters get gut shot that they never show? Always patting them selves on the back on camera, but what's the truth? Just sayin. :dunno:
Maybe zero? Maybe more? A gut shot animal is a sucky thing but one nice thing at range is you're likely to get a second shot.
How many are gut shot at close range? Or with a bow?
How many guys put a bad hit on geese or pheasants and dogs have to chew on them?
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 23, 2020, 04:33:48 PM
IF and I mean IF I had to take a 1400 yard poke at a critter, like gun to my head type deal, id send a sighter shot and then make my correction based off that.
:yeah:
Like maybe do your experimenting/guesstimating/dialing in on something other than the animal.
Just don't take a poke at me because I'm probably all camo'd up about 100 yds from that elk because I've been working it all morning and am just getting ready to seal the deal...fyi I shoot back.. :chuckle:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 23, 2020, 04:49:11 PM
All camoed up with your orange hat on of course because its wyoming. :chuckle:
IF and I mean IF I had to take a 1400 yard poke at a critter, like gun to my head type deal, id send a sighter shot and then make my correction based off that.
:yeah:
Like maybe do your experimenting/guesstimating/dialing in on something other than the animal.
Just don't take a poke at me because I'm probably all camo'd up about 100 yds from that elk because I've been working it all morning and am just getting ready to seal the deal...fyi I shoot back.. :chuckle:
Post by: callturner on December 23, 2020, 05:17:06 PM
How many guys put a bad hit on geese or pheasants and dogs have to chew on them?
[/quote] Why would the dogs have to chew on them?
Post by: jaymark6655 on December 24, 2020, 05:50:53 PM
No bows except long bows or recurves.
No mechanical broadheads.
No semi-auto shotguns. Also no shotguns allowed for big game.
No modern rifles.
No inline muzzle loaders.
Spear and knife now allowable.
No decoys for anything.
No deer stands or unnatural blinds.
No game cameras.
Oh and no dogs for any type of hunt.
That is probably pretty fair to the animal, give them a chance to evade you. :tup: Or we could stop dividing ourselves because someone doesn't hunt the way you do.
Post by: Gentrys on December 26, 2020, 09:44:50 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 27, 2020, 08:02:38 AM
I wonder how many critters get gut shot that they never show? Always patting them selves on the back on camera, but what's the truth? Just sayin. :dunno:
I saw a show once where some "expert" TV star hunter was pistol hunting from a tree stand. He shot the deer in the butt and it got away. It was very obvious where he hit it. So they spent the rest of the day hunting for the deer with no luck. All the while, the crew kept commenting on his great shot. Next morning we find the crew still searching for the buck, and finally, they find it dead in a pond. After retrieving it, someone on the crew posed with the deer and made the comment that they were sorry the "star" couldn't be with them that day because he had had to fly to another commitment. So the sorry SOB butt shot the deer and couldn't be bothered to stick around to help recover the animal. I doubt the crew even bothered to keep the meat off that bloated up deer they recovered. That was one of the last hunting shows I ever watched.
Post by: Cougartail on December 27, 2020, 08:35:03 AM
Post by: hunter399 on December 27, 2020, 09:31:48 AM
Any of you guys ever watch this old fart.
I'm not saying I totally agree with him but he does make some good points ,Alot of what he is saying kinda happens here in Washington too.Even though he lives in Wyoming.
Watch it ,get back to me.
Post by: bornhunter on December 27, 2020, 09:39:54 AM
I wonder how many critters get gut shot that they never show? Always patting them selves on the back on camera, but what's the truth? Just sayin. :dunno:
I saw a show once where some "expert" TV star hunter was pistol hunting from a tree stand. He shot the deer in the butt and it got away. It was very obvious where he hit it. So they spent the rest of the day hunting for the deer with no luck. All the while, the crew kept commenting on his great shot. Next morning we find the crew still searching for the buck, and finally, they find it dead in a pond. After retrieving it, someone on the crew posed with the deer and made the comment that they were sorry the "star" couldn't be with them that day because he had had to fly to another commitment. So the sorry SOB butt shot the deer and couldn't be bothered to stick around to help recover the animal. I doubt the crew even bothered to keep the meet off that bloated up deer they recovered. That was one of the last hunting shows I ever watched.
:yeah:
Post by: dilleytech on December 27, 2020, 12:05:36 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 27, 2020, 12:22:26 PM
Post by: Igor on December 27, 2020, 12:46:34 PM
"Range. Dial. Shoot. It's that simple."
Unless he misses...........
Post by: meatwhack on December 27, 2020, 01:25:38 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 27, 2020, 01:36:43 PM
It’s not that simple at all at that kind of distance.That's Gunwerk's advertising slogan.
Post by: huntandjeep on December 29, 2020, 09:14:36 AM
I purposely didn't open this thread for a while. Turned out to be exactly what I thought it would become. :chuckle:Yep , A typical bash long range hunters thread .
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 29, 2020, 09:44:53 AM
Buddys .308 was drifting 9 feet with the wind. Couldn’t hit 20” steel.
Post by: Bob33 on December 29, 2020, 10:24:13 AM
Shot at 1000 yd across canyon yday in 8 mph wind. Was holding off a little over 2 feet but wind was swirling and verticle and first 4 shots missed milk jug by 2” each time. Finally hit it next 3 shots. 338 LapuaMaybe you need a Gunwerks rifle so you can simply "range, dial, shoot". ;)
Buddys .308 was drifting 9 feet with the wind. Couldn’t hit 20” steel.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 29, 2020, 11:42:39 AM
Maybe you need a Gunwerks rifle so you can simply "range, dial, shoot". ;)
Ino! Looks so easy on TV ! I just need a 5 gal milk jug!
Post by: mountainman on December 31, 2020, 02:04:40 PM