Post by: Hilltop123 on December 24, 2020, 03:46:54 PM
Post by: hogslayer on December 24, 2020, 03:59:29 PM
Trying different primers
Don't clean the necks. Use nylon brush in the necks before dumping powder.
Different amount of neck tension
Seating depth is off
Wrong powder for bullet/cartridge combo.
If you do some digging around online, you can usually find what others are having success with. Switching primers is a easy test and will show itself quickly. If i am trying to squeeze a little more accuracy out of a rifle, i'll shoot (3) 3 shot groups with incremental powder with different primers. It becomes very obvious which one will shoot the best.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 24, 2020, 05:08:17 PM
With the right load and seating depth and Die I think it all solves itself. But if bullet length and/or weight, brass length and/or weight, annealing time/temp, seating depth or powder charge varies the errors will combine and show up as high ES.
Best solution IMO is do a ladder test at 1000 and pick what shoots best.
That said, in a quest to minimize es, for my Lapua loads getting to single digits:
I now anneal everytime with an Amp,
I sort cases by number of times shot, use bergers (Smk’s vary too much),
Body size brass, then neck size with Lee Collet for .001 runout
4 strokes with nylon brush through neck.
Chamfer inside/outside neck and clean primer pocket.
Use 0000 steel wool in socket and polish neck end.
Spray liquid graphite in jar, tilt jar and dip neck in it.
Load powder to within .02 gr using FX-120i lab scale.
Seat to within .001 length showing consistency.
Use Redding seater rotating brass 3 times on way down.
I do not weigh brass, bullets, or primers but some do. I am going to experiment with sorting primers by weight in the future . Sounds crazy but why load powder to within .02 then use primers with .2 gr variance in explosive content is the theory.
Post by: JJB11B on December 24, 2020, 06:08:14 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on December 24, 2020, 09:15:43 PM
Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help
:yeah:
Also check out bolt action reloading on youtube. Lots and lots of great info.
Post by: Stein on December 25, 2020, 12:29:22 AM
Try as many primers as you can find.
Try different brass.
Try to tighten up your reloading, same charge, same seating depth, measure every round.
That assumes you start with a good powder number, if not do that first.
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Post by: Jason on December 25, 2020, 06:39:33 AM
:yeah: Erik has some great videos. He doesn't make it sound over complicated when he's talking.Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help
:yeah:
Also check out bolt action reloading on youtube. Lots and lots of great info.
Post by: CaNINE on December 25, 2020, 07:24:53 AM
Post by: Crunchy on December 25, 2020, 07:58:24 AM
One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.
You think light and even or just consistent neck tension between cases?
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 25, 2020, 08:15:37 AM
I'll check him out, thanks. Thanks to everyones input.:yeah: Erik has some great videos. He doesn't make it sound over complicated when he's talking.Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help
:yeah:
Also check out bolt action reloading on youtube. Lots and lots of great info.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 25, 2020, 08:30:27 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 25, 2020, 08:46:35 AM
And custom Whidden dies never yet worked for me.
Would like to try Warner dies some day but big $$$
Post by: buckfvr on December 25, 2020, 11:10:02 AM
One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.
You think light and even or just consistent neck tension between cases?
In one word as far as components go, "uniformity". That word applies to neck tension as well and is easily achieved with uniform high quality brass that has been uniformed.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 25, 2020, 12:30:49 PM
Post by: jasnt on December 25, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort. Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets :twocents::yeah:
What is acceptable es will depend on the distance you shoot and amount of precision you desire at that distance. I’ve seen es of 100+ shoot one hole groups at 100 yards. The farther you plan to shoot the more es can affect your accuracy but not always the case. It’s best to just go shoot those distances and see how your load performs. Then decide if you want better
Post by: CaNINE on December 25, 2020, 02:29:40 PM
Been said that consistant hold and shoulder resistance has impact on es also. I.e. firm vs soft . ???
It’s crazy stuff. I have seen ES and velocity change markedly just by altering where the contact point is on my front rest or loading my bipod differently. Consistency consistency consistency.
Post by: CaNINE on December 25, 2020, 02:35:53 PM
One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.
You think light and even or just consistent neck tension between cases?
I haven’t run an experiment on it but my judgement tells me that light and consistent is better than heavy and consistent. I want to minimize the disruption forces on the bullet as it starts it journey. I aim for 0.002” using an expander mandrel with dry carbon lube.
Post by: actionshooter on December 25, 2020, 03:40:23 PM
This is a really god article..
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/?fbclid=IwAR2VlxY3wk9l1tu64DAvrrVU5x7Fo-vxPmZxd59MVqCb_r6gnRBhNfhihkQ
Post by: CaNINE on December 25, 2020, 04:09:52 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 25, 2020, 06:11:20 PM
Agreed. It’s easy to get up in the minutiae.
There’s always a better load out there...... :chuckle:
I draw the line at short range stuff tho. Trying to shoot .2 vs .3 groups at 100 would drive me crazy.
Post by: hogslayer on December 25, 2020, 08:23:45 PM
Reloading is my hobby and I enjoy testing/tweaking stuff.
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 27, 2020, 09:39:22 AM
Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort. Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets :twocents:
OK, I can understand your dislike of the red box. I'm pretty sure you like the yellow box, so whats your opinion on the green box?
Post by: jasnt on December 27, 2020, 04:49:22 PM
You could easily answer that for your self. Pull out 10 bullets from the green box and measure them. Check the bearing surface length, total length, then weigh them.Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort. Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets :twocents:
OK, I can understand your dislike of the red box. I'm pretty sure you like the yellow box, so whats your opinion on the green box?
If your one that dosent like the yellow or orange box then you could look at the nosler. Personally i hate em but I’m prejudice. :dunno:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 27, 2020, 05:59:19 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on December 27, 2020, 07:10:50 PM
Having quality brass was the biggest factor in dropping ES and shrinking groups for me. I tried different primers, powders, bullets, searing depth/charges, and everything in between. But once I switched to quality brass I found multiple loads that were outstanding and beyond my capabilities
Post by: Stein on December 27, 2020, 08:30:19 PM
In my(limited) experience
Having quality brass was the biggest factor in dropping ES and shrinking groups for me. I tried different primers, powders, bullets, searing depth/charges, and everything in between. But once I switched to quality brass I found multiple loads that were outstanding and beyond my capabilities
:yeah:
I ran a test where I just sorted headstamps and tested 5 shot groups with each, keeping everything else the same. It was by far the biggest factor in ES, more than charge weight, seating depth, crimp/no crimp, neck tension or primer brand. RP cases had an ES of 55 and Wins had 17 and that was in a suboptimal load I later tightened down. SD was 7.2 and 24 for those two cases.