Hunting Washington Forum
Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Night goat on April 13, 2021, 12:05:22 PM
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I was under the impression that my 9mm is inadequate for a woods gun for around Washington, and was pricing out a 10mm Glock 20 until somebody mentioned that Buffalo bore makes a hard cast heavy hitting 9mm round, and upon further reading on their website it states even shows a guy who 86ed a grizzly in Alaska with a 9mm with these Buffalo bore outdoorsman rounds
NOT MY FIRST CHOICE BY ANY MEANS against a grizzly, I always carried a 12 gauge up north, however it got me thinking whether or not these hard cast bullets with a +p rating would be sufficient for the black bears commonly encountered.
I want to get up into the high county more this summer and don’t have an issue buying a new gun however I am curious to hear what has to be said about these loads and whether or not the sales pitch is misleading
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108
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Good round. But I wouldn't spend more than .00001% of my time worrying about black bears.
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I carry a G19 loaded up with the 147 grain outdoorsmans and don't feel under gunned in western washington.
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I have a 10mm, so I tend to carry it in the woods, but if I only had a 9 I wouldn't worry about it.
How many black bear attacks in the west the last 10 years?
I don't know, but I'm guessing not many.
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I carry BB 158gr Outdoorsman 38+P in my 6" revolver and it will hit as hard as any 357mag out of a snubbie and I am a believer in hardcast lead.
I would totally run 9mm +P for handgun rounds.
Better rounds on target than a bigger bullet hitting dirt.
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Good round. But I wouldn't spend more than .00001% of my time worrying about black bears.
:yeah:
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I have a 10mm, so I tend to carry it in the woods, but if I only had a 9 I wouldn't worry about it.
How many black bear attacks in the west the last 10 years?
I don't know, but I'm guessing not many.
I guess the Alaska logic is hard to get rid of, considering it’s unthinkable to go anywhere except in town without something big, i guess I’ve been conditioned that way. Still, going up to some high lake fly fishing and camping out for a day or two smelling fishy has me bringing up this topic
I mean obviously no excuse not to be smart in the woods but can’t help but to think about added insurance
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Lol
I get it.
I've only fished Alaska rivers a handful of times, but I would have felt better with a belt fed 50 BMG.
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Good round. But I wouldn't spend more than .00001% of my time worrying about black bears.
Well I've not spent a million days in the woods but I have had the opportunity to wear a live black bear and I'd not write off the possibility of an attack.
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Good round. But I wouldn't spend more than .00001% of my time worrying about black bears.
Well I've not spent a million days in the woods but I have had the opportunity to wear a live black bear and I'd not write off the possibility of an attack.
My mother in law has a decent scar on her shoulder from a black bear in Colorado some 25-30yrs ago
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I guess the thing about my 9mm is it holds 12+1 so when in doubt empty the clip :chuckle:
Seriously though that makes me feel a lot better (my wallet too)
I’ll just get the Buffalo bores and if a situation ever does occur I’ll be prepared
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Good round. But I wouldn't spend more than .00001% of my time worrying about black bears.
Well I've not spent a million days in the woods but I have had the opportunity to wear a live black bear and I'd not write off the possibility of an attack.
So I know there are a few attacks.
That had to be scarier than crap.
Glad you're here to tell the tale.
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If you’re gonna buy a new gun for bears, go get a keltec pmr-30. 30 rounds of 22 mag and it’s super light/accurate. I know quite a few guys packing those for the bears we have here.
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Good round. But I wouldn't spend more than .00001% of my time worrying about black bears.
Well I've not spent a million days in the woods but I have had the opportunity to wear a live black bear and I'd not write off the possibility of an attack.
So I know there are a few attacks.
That had to be scarier than crap.
Glad you're here to tell the tale.
Thanks D.
And yes a sidearm would have helped tremendously. Or even a rifle not strapped to the back of my backpack
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I picked up the Buffalo Bore +p .45 ACP loads a couple years ago, before the panic, and love them! They work great in my Kimber Ultra Carry, and I have heard a lot of good things about the hard cast lead bullets. :twocents:
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It's all I ever shoot out of my m20. My results don't stack up with a lot of other people's experiences.
I'd read about the Glock polygonal rifling and lack of accuracy. Horror stories of guns blowing up due to excessive leading.
But the truth is, mine shoots fine, functions and is not excessively dirty at all. It's not really "hard cast". It's just lead and rin to make it hard. It doesn't really glaze the barrel like a traditional lead cast bullet.
At least in 10mm, it takes a lot of organic material to slow those slugs down.
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If you’re gonna buy a new gun for bears, go get a keltec pmr-30. 30 rounds of 22 mag and it’s super light/accurate. I know quite a few guys packing those for the bears we have here.
I used to want a pmr 30 but I heard those have a bunch of issues, 22wmr from a pistol seems to just be the same ballistics from 22lr from a rifle
If I were to go with a 22 for bears I’d just get a North American arms companion pistol with 22 shorts, all you gotta do is be able to outrun your buddy right? :chuckle:
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Buffalo Bore makes good stuff. I shoot their 180gr hard cast out of my 357mag. It's a stout load. Haven't had any leading issues or anything. No accuracy issues either. I've had a few conversations with the owner Tim, and he's a good guy. He usually responds fairly quickly if you have questions.
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Works on grouse too. I often choose my 9mm over my 10mm because of the sight.
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I picked up the Buffalo Bore +p .45 ACP loads a couple years ago, before the panic, and love them! They work great in my Kimber Ultra Carry, and I have heard a lot of good things about the hard cast lead bullets. :twocents:
We share this approach.
Great load.
If you new the guy loading them it would make you smile.
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If you’re gonna buy a new gun for bears, go get a keltec pmr-30. 30 rounds of 22 mag and it’s super light/accurate. I know quite a few guys packing those for the bears we have here.
I used to want a pmr 30 but I heard those have a bunch of issues, 22wmr from a pistol seems to just be the same ballistics from 22lr from a rifle
If I were to go with a 22 for bears I’d just get a North American arms companion pistol with 22 shorts, all you gotta do is be able to outrun your buddy right? :chuckle:
Ya I wanted one real bad until I shot my friends. They throw an impressive fire ball out the muzzle and you realize that’s all the powder being wasted by the short barrel. Same reason why I wouldn’t buy 5.56 pistol you lose like 1,000 fps and now you might as well have a 10mm which I have. Impressive round for sure. I currently only have the le high extreme penetrators.
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How many black bear attacks in the west the last 10 years?
I don't know, but I'm guessing not many.
Well when are you are trying to kill them the odds go up considerably.
9mm with high cap is fine for hiking or hunting deer.
After seeing how much damage a black bear can take I would say that 10mm is bare minimum if you are calling them in. If I were to fish near grizzlies in Alaska I would want a short shotgun. Yes a guide killed one with a 9mm but that was reckless. He actually had a 44 mag but didn't feel like taking it.
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
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GLOCK Certified Armourer
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
I'm sure a lead cast would work but what I was trying to say is that 9mm is fine for bear defense while hunting deer. I would only bother with 10mm or 357 if you are actually going out and looking for bears. Nothing wrong with buying one for fun but I don't see it as required equipment for hunting or hiking in Washington.
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
can you share that story?
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
can you share that story?
Yes. My first elk harvest which was also my first big game harvest, my second time ever seeing a herd of elk and after two hits of .308 he still wasn’t dead. I caught up him and he was expiring. Unsure of if I should shoot him again with my rifle standing directly over him or use my handgun, i chose my handgun thinking there would be less meat damage. Two rounds and he’s acting like nothing happened and he’s still alive. A few minutes later he’s dead.
The next day while fleshing the hide, I find both bullets in the same side I shot him on.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
can you share that story?
Yes. My first elk harvest which was also my first big game harvest, my second time ever seeing a herd of elk and after two hits of .308 he still wasn’t dead. I caught up him and he was expiring. Unsure of if I should shoot him again with my rifle standing directly over him or use my handgun, i chose my handgun thinking there would be less meat damage. Two rounds and he’s acting like nothing happened and he’s still alive. A few minutes later he’s dead.
The next day while fleshing the hide, I find both bullets in the same side I shot him on.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
Jhp are a poor choice for a hunting round obviously but they didn’t even penetrate the hide? I find that hard to believe considering they will shoot through plywood and then some just fine. But a hard cast or extreme penetrator probably would have ended up in hide on the opposite side.
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
can you share that story?
Yes. My first elk harvest which was also my first big game harvest, my second time ever seeing a herd of elk and after two hits of .308 he still wasn’t dead. I caught up him and he was expiring. Unsure of if I should shoot him again with my rifle standing directly over him or use my handgun, i chose my handgun thinking there would be less meat damage. Two rounds and he’s acting like nothing happened and he’s still alive. A few minutes later he’s dead.
The next day while fleshing the hide, I find both bullets in the same side I shot him on.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
Jhp are a poor choice for a hunting round obviously but they didn’t even penetrate the hide? I find that hard to believe considering they will shoot through plywood and then some just fine. But a hard cast or extreme penetrator probably would have ended up in hide on the opposite side.
I wouldn't tell the story if it weren't true.
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I can tell you from personal experience that 9mm JHP from a G19 does not penetrate elk hide. That’s partly why I carry 10mm.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
can you share that story?
Yes. My first elk harvest which was also my first big game harvest, my second time ever seeing a herd of elk and after two hits of .308 he still wasn’t dead. I caught up him and he was expiring. Unsure of if I should shoot him again with my rifle standing directly over him or use my handgun, i chose my handgun thinking there would be less meat damage. Two rounds and he’s acting like nothing happened and he’s still alive. A few minutes later he’s dead.
The next day while fleshing the hide, I find both bullets in the same side I shot him on.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer
Jhp are a poor choice for a hunting round obviously but they didn’t even penetrate the hide? I find that hard to believe considering they will shoot through plywood and then some just fine. But a hard cast or extreme penetrator probably would have ended up in hide on the opposite side.
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I wouldn't tell the story if it weren't true.
When I first read that you didn't penetrate elk hide i thought that was crazy.
I was going to respond about how unbelievable that is, but I believe you to be a truth telling man so I didn't know how to say it.
I do believe you.
But that is crazy.
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Jhp are a poor choice for a hunting round obviously but they didn’t even penetrate the hide? I find that hard to believe considering they will shoot through plywood and then some just fine. But a hard cast or extreme penetrator probably would have ended up in hide on the opposite side.
It's because the plywood is brittle and cracks under pressure while the elk is a mass of hide and muscle that flexes and absorbs the energy of the hollow point as it pancakes.
These defensive handgun hollow points really aren't designed for large game animals.
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Elk hide is tough stuff and has a lot of flex. I shoot a 270 Weatherby with nobler partitions and I quite often find my bullet in the offside hide. It will go though the animal and break bones, but by the time it gets to the offside hide it will stop.
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Yes, it is crazy. Conversely that same season during late modern deer, a similar incident occurred. However this time a little spike was my quarry and the round passed through the first side and his lung but, not the other side of the hide.
About the Nosler Partitions....I have seen them do the same with 300 Win Mag on a mature cow.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
https://www.Silencershop.com/blackhammerarms
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
GLOCK Certified Armourer