Post by: yakimanoob on November 15, 2021, 06:16:44 PM
Y'all. PLEASE save up and invest in one of these devices. I prefer two-way communicators like the InReach and newer SPOT devices etc, but even the simple emergency beacons and PLB devices have a lot of value.
I've only been a part of my local SAR team for about three years, but in that short time it's become brutally obvious to me that many people would be alive today if they had carried a locator device, and many people would be dead if they hadn't.
If you hear me say anything, please hear that help is a lot further away than you think, and that most people who die in the woods die of exposure after surviving the initial injury or event that stranded them.
Think about what happens if you take a bad fall, or if you start feeling too sick to get back to your vehicle, or if your chest and left arm start hurting so bad you can't think straight. Let's say this happens mid-morning. Day 1, 0900 hours.
Consider how long it would take for your loved ones to realize that you're late, start to get worried, second-guess whether they should call the cops or whether they're just worrying too much, then finally alert law enforcement. This takes hours, at least, AFTER you've been gone long enough for them to notice, and the only way to shorten this process is to be able to communicate with your loved ones. Let's say your loved ones expected a check-in that evening. After the worrying/second-guessing period, they call 911 at 2000 hours. 11 hours after the initial injury/symptoms.
Once law enforcement is alerted, the first thing that happens is a Sheriff's Deputy (County Sheriff's are tasked legally with Search and Rescue duty) will contact the reporting party and take a statement, and most often one or two deputies will head to the area where your loved ones think you might be. If you're not quickly found, the Sheriff's office will send out a page to the SAR teams that someone is missing. All SAR teams in the State of Washington are volunteers with normal lives outside of SAR. The available SAR members will start gathering their gear and start heading to their local Rescue Coordination Center or other rally point. It's common for the deputies to spend the night searching, and alert volunteer SAR teams in the morning. Let's say the page goes out on Day 2 at 0600 hrs. 21 hours after the initial injury/symptoms.
Where do the SAR teams go from here? The answer depends on the quality of information they get from the reporting party, which in turn depends on the information you gave them before you left. Do they know where you're hunting? Exactly? If you're like me, YOU don't know exactly where you'll be hunting when you leave and you may go one of a dozen places stretched over many square miles.
But let's say the Deputies get lucky and find your vehicle while the volunteer SAR resources are getting ready. This gives the teams a sense of the terrain, weather, and how to prepare (for example, should the Sheriff's department send out ATVs? Snowmobiles? Mountain Rescue?). In most scenarios, the time between the initial page and the SAR team leaving their base of operations is 1-2 hours. SAR teams roll out at 0800 and arrive at your vehicle an hour later. A full 24 hours after initial injury/symptoms.
Did you make it through the night? Are you able to hear the searchers calling your name from the obvious paths leading away from your truck? Are you able to respond to them?
24 hours is a helluva long time after any event that would prevent you from getting yourself back to your vehicle, and you don't have to be a SAR operator to understand that the probability of survival goes WAY down past 24 hours, and that's 24 hours between the event and the search starting. How close are you to your truck? Did you take an obvious path or did you drop into a hole chasing an elk?
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Alternatively, say you fire off a satellite emergency beacon when your chest pain brings you to your knees. Day 1, 0900. Worst case, it takes about an hour for the emergency alert to get to the Sheriff's office (btw, most emergency beacons alert 911 and your emergency contacts simultaneously). Critically - the SAR resources have your GPS location from the very beginning. If the Deputy in charge sees that you're 2 miles from the nearest road, they will activate SAR immediately. SAR resources would be alerted with an hour or two and deployed around 1200hrs.
Even better, if you can send a message to 911 via your device and say that you're experiencing chest pain and can't walk, the Sheriff's office can deploy EMS to the trailhead in tandem with SAR ground teams, or even possibly a helicopter. In Yakima County, we have a good partnership with the US Army Air Ambulance Detachment at YTC who can often lift off within an hour of being notified. If they're available, you could have a mobile ICU come to you by early afternoon. Most counties on the west side are covered by the Navy medic helos out of NASWI.
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These are obviously just two of a bajillion possible scenarios, but I hope you get the point. If we don't know 1) where you are and 2) what you need, the probability of getting to you in time to help you drops dramatically.
Common reasons I've heard for why folks think they don't need a satellite device:
I can handle myself in the woods. I'm sure you can. But can you gather firewood and set up a makeshift shelter with a broken leg? How about a serious head injury? Remember - you're safe IF you can get back to camp or a vehicle. If you can't do that for whatever reason, you'll probably have a really hard time using your bushcraft skills.
I'm not going that far. I totally get this way of thinking - but it's only valid IF searchers know which direction you were going from your vehicle with a high degree of clarity. If all they have is your vehicle as a reference, the search area can be massive. Cheif Schreckengost was found yesterday ~1/2 mile from his truck. A circle with a half-mile radius is about 485 football fields of ground to cover. Statistically, only 25% of hunters are found within that radius. 75% are found within 3 miles -- seventeen and a half thousand football fields to search. "Not that far" is a helluva lot farther than you think it is. Once you factor in elevation and very rough terrain to the equation, it's not hard to see why it took 7000+ searcher hours to find the Chief.
I'll just be careful. This is wise. But I'm an idiot and so are you when the elk show up. And "being careful" doesn't help you in the event of a medical crisis in the field.
All this to say -- a satellite beacon is invaluable in an emergency situation. It's well worth the cost.
*I just want to be ultra clear that I don't know whether a sat comm device would have saved Cheif Schreckengost. That would depend on many things that I don't know and likely will never learn.
Post by: CNELK on November 15, 2021, 06:38:59 PM
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Post by: ghosthunter on November 15, 2021, 07:14:29 PM
I carried a spot for ten years and got a InReach 2 years ago. I hunt alone and recreate over water and land a lot.
Some other things I do.
I run Rhinos. I leave one in my truck on. As I travel I key the mic which reports my potion to the truck rhino. My family knows this, and know to check my truck for a Rhino.
I carry a whistle
Survival cover
Fire making gear
And a battery operated single device, like electric road flares.
I send a InReach quick message from where I am hunting and when I get back to camp.
I always carry a hand gun. Because in a bad fall a rifle might be lost. I have had that fall.
Just a few ideas.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200809807_200809807?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&utm_source=Bing_PLA&utm_medium=Automotive%20%3E%20Automotive%20%2B%20Vehicle%20Lighting%20%3E%20Warning%20Lights&utm_campaign=Performance%20Tool&utm_content=68096&cmpid=53403371&agid=3200075884&tgtid=pla-1100308149341&prdid=68096&msclkid=7531303bf61f11e3cc7151a8d47df08f&gclid=7531303bf61f11e3cc7151a8d47df08f&gclsrc=3p.ds
Post by: Iveexcaped3 on November 15, 2021, 07:14:58 PM
Yakimanoob I know in the previous post a discussion of using Bluetooth technology to find him. Is that what found him or was it a member of SAR? I’ll definitely be keeping an eye out to see if ycs is doing training classes. This (like many of us) hits close to home and would like to think maybe another set of eyes would have been the deciding factor of the final outcome
Post by: Shoofly09 on November 15, 2021, 07:25:55 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 15, 2021, 07:28:08 PM
It would be impossible to walk out, nipple deep fluff.
Really, I shouldn't do that....but SAR would be easy, only one track to follow from the truck :chuckle:
Post by: hughjorgan on November 15, 2021, 08:09:35 PM
Post by: jstone on November 15, 2021, 08:21:39 PM
Post by: yakimanoob on November 15, 2021, 09:03:30 PM
I broke down and bought a zoleo a little bit more affordable than the garmin in reach. Cheap insurance policy if something goes wrong as long as your conscious to hit that SOS button.
How do you like the zoleo? I haven't heard much about them.
Post by: hughjorgan on November 15, 2021, 09:26:05 PM
I literally just bought it on Saturday so haven’t had any field time with it. But was easy to setup. All the reviews I’ve read about it were positive.I broke down and bought a zoleo a little bit more affordable than the garmin in reach. Cheap insurance policy if something goes wrong as long as your conscious to hit that SOS button.
How do you like the zoleo? I haven't heard much about them.
You can communicate between an in reach and zoleo. My hunting partner runs an in reach so wanted to make sure it was compatible.
The subscription plans I liked better than what garmin had to offer and unit is half the price of the garmin.
Service seems to work as advertised with me playing around sending messages to the wife while I was in the house and didn’t have a clear view of the sky.
I’ll have a better idea of how it works when I take it out for the late archery season and am able to test it in the field.
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Post by: medic6 on November 15, 2021, 09:33:58 PM
Post by: Encore 280 on November 15, 2021, 10:15:52 PM
Post by: pd on November 15, 2021, 10:26:55 PM
Frankly, I don't care what the subscription costs. Being able to connect with my business and family makes it all the worthwhile.
By the way, I see Camofire has Zoleo for sale today for $149. It is usually $200, and sometimes available for $150. This new price is really attractive.
Post by: Encore 280 on November 15, 2021, 10:41:04 PM
Post by: shootem on November 15, 2021, 11:20:23 PM
Post by: blackpowderhunter on November 16, 2021, 07:07:08 AM
Easy to clip onto a backpack strap in case of a fall where you cant get up to get your inreach or other out of your pack.
I also made my wife download onx and I send her my potential camping/hunting areas to have pinned on her phone. I hunt with a group of friends but you never know...
Post by: Caseyd on November 16, 2021, 08:05:24 AM
I agree.
I carried a spot for ten years and got a InReach 2 years ago. I hunt alone and recreate over water and land a lot.
Some other things I do.
I run Rhinos. I leave one in my truck on. As I travel I key the mic which reports my potion to the truck rhino. My family knows this, and know to check my truck for a Rhino.
I carry a whistle
Survival cover
Fire making gear
And a battery operated single device, like electric road flares.
I send a InReach quick message from where I am hunting and when I get back to camp.
I always carry a hand gun. Because in a bad fall a rifle might be lost. I have had that fall.
Just a few ideas.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200809807_200809807?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&utm_source=Bing_PLA&utm_medium=Automotive%20%3E%20Automotive%20%2B%20Vehicle%20Lighting%20%3E%20Warning%20Lights&utm_campaign=Performance%20Tool&utm_content=68096&cmpid=53403371&agid=3200075884&tgtid=pla-1100308149341&prdid=68096&msclkid=7531303bf61f11e3cc7151a8d47df08f&gclid=7531303bf61f11e3cc7151a8d47df08f&gclsrc=3p.ds
Turn on tracking with your InReach and your wife can see where you are in real-time. No need for the rhinos.
Post by: Smokepole on November 16, 2021, 08:33:50 AM
Post by: tbrady on November 16, 2021, 08:34:47 AM
I broke down and bought a zoleo a little bit more affordable than the garmin in reach. Cheap insurance policy if something goes wrong as long as your conscious to hit that SOS button.
How do you like the zoleo? I haven't heard much about them.
My buddies and I started using Zoleo's this year and they work great. We have them set on automatic location sharing so we can more easily locate each other. I was also able to get a hold of my son to come help with a pack out when I was in the middle of BFE with no cell connection.
Post by: yakimanoob on November 16, 2021, 09:20:40 AM
I've been studying for a ham radio license, in case I'm injured or stranded many miles back. I wouldn't want any tracking device on me. I like the humble feeling of being completely off grid and isolated. But I did break down and buy a handheld ham radio and programmed some repeaters for emergency communication.
Ham radios are awesome - and so so so much faster and more efficient than sat comms IF you can reach a repeater or nearby ham operator, but that's a big if.
Yakima county has an incredible repeater network set up by folks from the local club and YSO SAR. The repeaters are even networked together, so if you can hit one, anyone in reach of any of them can hear you. Even so, we have trouble hitting repeaters on nearly every SAR mission.
A ham radio is better than nothing (assuming you have a good network of repeaters in your area AND you know how to connect with them), but it doesn't hold a candle to the security of an InReach etc.
If you want to go off-grid, turn the device off. You'll still be hard to find if you die instantly, but if you get into a normal emergency you can turn the device on and call for help.
Post by: Igor on November 16, 2021, 09:24:53 AM
Just doing a little research on Christmas gifts for my sons.
Post by: Stein on November 16, 2021, 10:14:00 AM
I go back and forth between InReach and PLB, if I'm not needing to send text messages the PLB is easier to carry and doesn't require a subscription. It does require someone to push the button though and the InReach automatically sending position updates is great insurance.
Post by: KFhunter on November 16, 2021, 10:19:03 AM
I'm gonna steal a few of those. I typically send a inreach message "truck is parked here" with the geotag link like inreach does.
All add another tidbit, teach your rescuers how to save google maps before they leave service, or one text or glitch and they won't be able to pull the map up again
Post by: pickardjw on November 16, 2021, 10:48:42 AM
However, with the Zoleo you have to have a smart phone to use the messaging functions. You can send your preset daily checkin message to your default contact and SOS without the phone with buttons on the device. The Zoleo is also a little cheaper up front. The InReach and InReach Mini both have screens so you can use their messaging features separate of your phone if it dies.
I went with the Zoleo because my phone is my map and always stays on me and charged. I don't really send custom messages much anyway. Both use the same satellite network and appear to perform equally in that aspect.
I would say pick whichever one would fit your son best based on that criteria.
Post by: KFhunter on November 16, 2021, 11:00:13 AM
Post by: Igor on November 16, 2021, 11:00:28 AM
Igor - I went with the Zoleo because the monthly plans are little better price to message ratio wise. You also get free weather updates specific to your location. With the InReach weather updates count as one of your messages for the month.
However, with the Zoleo you have to have a smart phone to use the messaging functions. You can send your preset daily checkin message to your default contact and SOS without the phone with buttons on the device. The Zoleo is also a little cheaper up front. The InReach and InReach Mini both have screens so you can use their messaging features separate of your phone if it dies.
I went with the Zoleo because my phone is my map and always stays on me and charged. I don't really send custom messages much anyway. Both use the same satellite network and appear to perform equally in that aspect.
I would say pick whichever one would fit your son best based on that criteria.
Thanks for the input. They both carry smart phones, and since I'm looking at two of them, price is a consideration.
Do you have any idea if something called Life360 on a smart phone is comparable to Zoleo and InReach ?
Post by: pickardjw on November 16, 2021, 11:10:26 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on November 16, 2021, 11:14:36 AM
Also remember: Over the next 5 years there will be over 30,000 LEO satellites in the sky offering internet service and other services for remote areas that will likely spawn an entire new fleet of handheld devices. Garmin is better positioned to survive that competitive onslaught. I'd bet good money that Zoleo devices will be collecting dust somewhere in 5+ years.
:twocents:
Post by: yakimanoob on November 16, 2021, 11:16:39 AM
Igor - I went with the Zoleo because the monthly plans are little better price to message ratio wise. You also get free weather updates specific to your location. With the InReach weather updates count as one of your messages for the month.
However, with the Zoleo you have to have a smart phone to use the messaging functions. You can send your preset daily checkin message to your default contact and SOS without the phone with buttons on the device. The Zoleo is also a little cheaper up front. The InReach and InReach Mini both have screens so you can use their messaging features separate of your phone if it dies.
I went with the Zoleo because my phone is my map and always stays on me and charged. I don't really send custom messages much anyway. Both use the same satellite network and appear to perform equally in that aspect.
I would say pick whichever one would fit your son best based on that criteria.
Thanks for the input. They both carry smart phones, and since I'm looking at two of them, price is a consideration.
Do you have any idea if something called Life360 on a smart phone is comparable to Zoleo and InReach ?
I've only ever used the InReach so I can't really speak to the difference between them.
There is no phone app that can turn your phone into a satelitte communicator. Cell phones don't have the hardware necessary to access the Iridium or any other sat networks, so you'll need a separate device.
Post by: Igor on November 16, 2021, 11:21:42 AM
Sounds like the InReach will be what my two boys get from Santa.
Post by: Skillet on November 16, 2021, 11:24:11 AM
Post by: hughjorgan on November 16, 2021, 11:28:30 AM
We use the inReach a lot, and a few of the guys in the fishing fleet in Southeast AK tried Zoleo over the last couple of years. None of the two I talked to about it liked Zoleo over inReach. They said the service wasn't as good, for whatever reason. Just an FYI-Kind of strange since they run off the same satellites
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Post by: Skillet on November 16, 2021, 11:38:04 AM
We use the inReach a lot, and a few of the guys in the fishing fleet in Southeast AK tried Zoleo over the last couple of years. None of the two I talked to about it liked Zoleo over inReach. They said the service wasn't as good, for whatever reason. Just an FYI-Kind of strange since they run off the same satellites
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Yeah, I was thinking it might be a hardware issue like antennae or something like that. Not sure, but both guys said they were going back to inReach.
Post by: KFhunter on November 16, 2021, 11:40:02 AM
iphone 13 might be a game changer
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/iphone-13-satellite-communication-everything-we-know-so-far
Post by: Stein on November 16, 2021, 12:44:32 PM
We use the inReach a lot, and a few of the guys in the fishing fleet in Southeast AK tried Zoleo over the last couple of years. None of the two I talked to about it liked Zoleo over inReach. They said the service wasn't as good, for whatever reason. Just an FYI-Kind of strange since they run off the same satellites
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Yeah, I was thinking it might be a hardware issue like antennae or something like that. Not sure, but both guys said they were going back to inReach.
Antenna, transmit power, circuitry, no reason to expect two different models from two different companies would have identical performance.
Post by: logger on November 16, 2021, 02:56:52 PM
Post by: Sundance on November 16, 2021, 03:11:49 PM