Post by: bearpaw on November 24, 2021, 12:40:00 PM
https://www.gohunt.com/content/news/pennsylvania-hunter-kills-record-washington-ram
Another story about the same ram:
https://www.huntinfool.com/articles/type/member-stories/two-o-two
Post by: GASoline71 on November 24, 2021, 12:45:37 PM
Gary
Post by: jackelope on November 24, 2021, 12:50:04 PM
Congrats to @ramslam and @starbailey for making this happen!
Post by: salt n sage90 on November 24, 2021, 01:33:29 PM
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Post by: JakeLand on November 24, 2021, 02:21:24 PM
Post by: ShaneTyTrey on November 24, 2021, 02:59:39 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 24, 2021, 03:12:55 PM
Post by: Dan-o on November 24, 2021, 03:15:43 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Very well stated.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 24, 2021, 03:16:20 PM
Post by: hunter399 on November 24, 2021, 04:17:36 PM
Check your messages, Dan-OI wanna check my messages guys.
Hehehehe
Post by: RB on November 24, 2021, 04:35:31 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Very well stated.
:yeah:
If a guy has the resources to put that much into conservation, good on ya mate! Like most working class stiffs affording the $15 for a special draw is where most of us are. What a Ram!
Post by: HntnFsh on November 24, 2021, 05:15:36 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Yep!
Post by: Remnar on November 24, 2021, 07:12:17 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
:yeah:
I feel this is the road we are going down with all species right or wrong. But thats for another thread...
Congrats to the hunter .
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 24, 2021, 07:15:46 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Im gonna get flamed for this , but thats Ok.
I get tired of hearing the "They put lots of money into Sheep conservation"......If they are really concerned about conservation, no one is stopping them from making a donation without the expectation of receiving a tag. How many rams does an individual need to shoot? To me it appears they are paying for their own personal enjoyment/hunting stock.
Personally I am not a greedy dude, and would be happy to just have the opportunity to hunt sheep one time on my home turf.
Even if i could afford to play these type of games, I would only do it once........no need to take opportunity away from my fellow hunters..............
Sharing resources and being considerate of fellow hunters is a long lost thing.
Post by: time2hunt on November 24, 2021, 07:29:52 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: idaho guy on November 24, 2021, 07:45:59 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Im gonna get flamed for this , but thats Ok.
I get tired of hearing the "They put lots of money into Sheep conservation"......If they are really concerned about conservation, no one is stopping them from making a donation without the expectation of receiving a tag. How many rams does an individual need to shoot? To me it appears they are paying for their own personal enjoyment/hunting stock.
Personally I am not a greedy dude, and would be happy to just have the opportunity to hunt sheep one time on my home turf.
Even if i could afford to play these type of games, I would only do it once........no need to take opportunity away from my fellow hunters..............
Sharing resources and being considerate of fellow hunters is a long lost thing.
I agree with this. It doesn’t make me mad the hunter can do this but 3 rams just from Washington not to mention all the other sheep seems pretty excessive. I would also be happy with 1 (of all 4 species 😂)and leave some for the next guy. Anyways good for him that’s definitely an awesome ram.
Post by: jackelope on November 24, 2021, 07:52:28 PM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Im gonna get flamed for this , but thats Ok.
I get tired of hearing the "They put lots of money into Sheep conservation"......If they are really concerned about conservation, no one is stopping them from making a donation without the expectation of receiving a tag. How many rams does an individual need to shoot? To me it appears they are paying for their own personal enjoyment/hunting stock.
Personally I am not a greedy dude, and would be happy to just have the opportunity to hunt sheep one time on my home turf.
Even if i could afford to play these type of games, I would only do it once........no need to take opportunity away from my fellow hunters..............
Sharing resources and being considerate of fellow hunters is a long lost thing.
Have you bought any sheep raffle tickets?
If I could either make a big donation in the name of conservation or make a big donation in the name of conservation and get a sheep tag out of it, I know which of the 2 I’d be going for and the one I’d pick doesn’t include not getting a sheep tag out of it.
Call me crazy.
Post by: dreamingbig on November 25, 2021, 05:03:09 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 25, 2021, 06:02:03 AM
Thats a cool ram for sure.
Interesting when one of these stories pop up the amount of mud slinging that happens in comments. (I saw some negative comments in the page posted)
On one hand many WA residents could apply to special permits for a lifetime and never get drawn and even if they do its one and done, not counting raffles. Let alone afford guides to find such a brute. Seeing as this gentleman has killed 3 Bighorns here in 6 years I am guessing he spends alot of dough on raffle tickets and other things the likes of which many of us average guys/gals just can't afford.
On the other hand, this guy has likely put more money into WA Conservation/Sheep Conservation as a non-resident than many of us could do or will do in a lifetime.
Is it fair? I don't know.
Am I jealous? Oh ya
Am I mad? nope
Very cool writeup he had. Congrats to the hunter and I thank him for investing in our State.
Im gonna get flamed for this , but thats Ok.
I get tired of hearing the "They put lots of money into Sheep conservation"......If they are really concerned about conservation, no one is stopping them from making a donation without the expectation of receiving a tag. How many rams does an individual need to shoot? To me it appears they are paying for their own personal enjoyment/hunting stock.
Personally I am not a greedy dude, and would be happy to just have the opportunity to hunt sheep one time on my home turf.
Even if i could afford to play these type of games, I would only do it once........no need to take opportunity away from my fellow hunters..............
Sharing resources and being considerate of fellow hunters is a long lost thing.
Have you bought any sheep raffle tickets?
If I could either make a big donation in the name of conservation or make a big donation in the name of conservation and get a sheep tag out of it, I know which of the 2 I’d be going for and the one I’d pick doesn’t include not getting a sheep tag out of it.
Call me crazy.
I have bought raffle tickets in the past, never more than 2 in a year.
Would I love to be able to shoot a ram every year? Absolutely. Would I? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Just seems greedy to me, I would be happy with just 1 ram, and to know that other hunters will get to have the same experience I had.
If you take a box of donuts to work, do you eat them all, or do you share them? (you paid for them, they are your donuts, you don't have to share)
When you donate to a charity, do you ALWAYS expect something in return?
Not trying to pick on ya Josh, just explaining my point of view. Happy Turkey day Buddy!
:tup: Idaho Guy......You and I are 1000% in agreement
Post by: Bob33 on November 25, 2021, 07:15:47 AM
Did the sheep he shot take away the opportunity from someone else? Yes. Did the money he has spent resulted in more sleep hunting opportunities for everyone else? Probably.
He may have also donated money to conservation causes without any direct benefit.
I do think shooting three sheep in one state seems excessive but he did it legally and playing by the same rules available to everyone.
Post by: hunter399 on November 25, 2021, 08:03:17 AM
Just sayin. :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on November 25, 2021, 10:10:41 AM
Assuming these are raffle tickets with no cap, he probably bought a lot of tickets that didn't win. He must have bought a large number to win several times. I suspect that the amount he has spent in tickets could have purchased multiple hunts in other places.
Did the sheep he shot take away the opportunity from someone else? Yes. Did the money he has spent resulted in more sleep hunting opportunities for everyone else? Probably.
He may have also donated money to conservation causes without any direct benefit.
I do think shooting three sheep in one state seems excessive but he did it legally and playing by the same rules available to everyone.
Excellent comments Bob33
I can definitely see why hunters who have never had a chance at a sheep struggle with one guy getting three sheep in the same state, on the surface it certainly appears unfair. I wish agencies would do a better job of justifying to everyone how these dollars are actually being put to use so that there are more sheep on the mountain for everyone to hunt. Even though it may seem unfair on the surface, the result of all this money being put into the system is actually providing more sheep hunting opportunity for everyone, not just the hunters who are making the big expenditures.
Post by: meatwhack on November 25, 2021, 06:19:21 PM
Post by: JDHasty on November 25, 2021, 07:06:48 PM
I reserve judgement until I know more before deciding if it represented a hunt or if it is nothing but a “hunt.” The latter I consider to be pretty much no more worthy of any respect than individuals who collect taxidermy of high fenced game animals they have paid to shoot.
FWIW, this article highlights an excellent example of the former:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19910922&id=gENWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mOoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6525,5192645&hl=en
Post by: jackelope on November 25, 2021, 07:29:39 PM
These guys that participate in tag auctions and raffles can be hard working hunters who do more than buy a tag and hire others to locate a “trophy” animal, then drive them right up to it, or in some cases retain the services of a helicopter service then pay an attorney to find loopholes for them. But unfortunately way too many of them fall into the latter category.
I reserve judgement until I know more before deciding if it represented a hunt or if it is nothing but a “hunt.” The latter I consider to be pretty much no more worthy of any respect than individuals who collect taxidermy of high fenced game animals they have paid to shoot.
FWIW, this article highlights an excellent example of the former:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19910922&id=gENWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mOoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6525,5192645&hl=en
Soooo without admittedly knowing one way or the other how this hunt went, why would you bring that malarkey into this thread?
Post by: Seabass on November 25, 2021, 07:37:34 PM
Post by: JDHasty on November 25, 2021, 07:46:41 PM
Without having more to go on, I have no opinion either way regarding taking of this magnificent animal being an accomplishment worthy of praise. Being as the story is about the hunter I don’t have enough to go on. If it were about the ram, I think all can agree that it is a magnificent example.
The thread had already been opened to a discussion regarding the ethics/propriety of unlimited purchases of raffle tags. Are only those who post opinion that validates your personal opinion allowed, or is this a board in which people can discuss topics in which there are differences of opinion can discuss them?
Post by: Tbar on November 25, 2021, 07:48:25 PM
Assuming these are raffle tickets with no cap, he probably bought a lot of tickets that didn't win. He must have bought a large number to win several times. I suspect that the amount he has spent in tickets could have purchased multiple hunts in other places.Good comment Bob. I don't like the model being used with sheep today. To the average resident it matters not, they will likely never hunt sheep in this state. It is interesting how the big players market "conservation " and "more sheep on the mountain" while they double dip on these animals. The amount of sheep tags that go to the raffle/auction in this state is just plain wrong. Then you have the same people who sell the tag, and collect a service fee (big parties for affluent folks can be expensive to host), then they follow it up with a pre planned guide service. When only one rocky tag was available it was sold and not offered through the draw? What percentage of those sold tags were guided by the ones who sold(raffle) it? Just seems like a lot of insider baseball to me.
Did the sheep he shot take away the opportunity from someone else? Yes. Did the money he has spent resulted in more sleep hunting opportunities for everyone else? Probably.
He may have also donated money to conservation causes without any direct benefit.
I do think shooting three sheep in one state seems excessive but he did it legally and playing by the same rules available to everyone.
Post by: jackelope on November 25, 2021, 07:50:00 PM
You might want to look up the meaning of reserve judgement and decide if others have the right to reserve judgement unless/until sufficient facts are known before deciding for themselves if this is an accomplishment they recognize as praise worthy or if it is an”accomplishment” that they don’t recognize as particularly praiseworthy or if to them it represents a scandal and disgrace.So you have no opinion
Without having more to go on, I have no opinion either way regarding taking it being an accomplishment. Being as the story is about the hunter I don’t have enough to go on. If it were about the ram, I think all can agree that it is a magnificent example.
Post by: JDHasty on November 25, 2021, 08:13:12 PM
A) they do raise a lot of money.
B) the participants use of the tag range from what I consider consummate sportsmanship to absolute scandal and disgrace. YMMV, notice I posted “I choose to reserve judgement.”
C) the stories come to the public because the winner of the tag wants notoriety, or does not object
D) the money raised mostly, but not always benefits the target species
E) even the most dastardly of unethical individuals have their fanboys
F) the non-profits and State Agencies involved can range from as ethical as anyone could hope for or just as unscrupulous as any regarding who is allowed to participate
That is just off the top of my head.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 26, 2021, 07:21:29 AM
I find this very interesting.
Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport due to these type permits....That is a fact
Post by: Bob33 on November 26, 2021, 08:14:03 AM
Monies go to conservation: Are you 100% sure about that? When it comes to this topic sure seems that is all a person hears, yet on the other hand most folks do not trust WDFW management, especially their management of funds.Yes, unless they violate this RCW.
I find this very interesting.
Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport due to these type permits....That is a fact
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.32.530
Post by: polishstunner on November 26, 2021, 09:50:32 AM
I guess the work will be getting pics without the darn highways in the background..
Post by: Dan-o on November 26, 2021, 11:17:37 AM
Im going to feel guilty if I ever get drawn, they are semi tame.
I guess the work will be getting pics without the darn highways in the background..
Sounds like you shouldn't apply.
That will up my odds to 0.00000034% next year!
I better start getting in sheep shape. :IBCOOL:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 26, 2021, 05:40:35 PM
Monies go to conservation: Are you 100% sure about that? When it comes to this topic sure seems that is all a person hears, yet on the other hand most folks do not trust WDFW management, especially their management of funds.Yes, unless they violate this RCW.
I find this very interesting.
Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport due to these type permits....That is a fact
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.32.530
Conservation yes....... but how about sheep conservation?
These type of statements (not picking on you Dale) are made alot.
Assuming these are raffle tickets with no cap, he probably bought a lot of tickets that didn't win. He must have bought a large number to win several times. I suspect that the amount he has spent in tickets could have purchased multiple hunts in other places.
Did the sheep he shot take away the opportunity from someone else? Yes. Did the money he has spent resulted in more sleep hunting opportunities for everyone else? Probably.
He may have also donated money to conservation causes without any direct benefit.
I do think shooting three sheep in one state seems excessive but he did it legally and playing by the same rules available to everyone.
Excellent comments Bob33
I can definitely see why hunters who have never had a chance at a sheep struggle with one guy getting three sheep in the same state, on the surface it certainly appears unfair. I wish agencies would do a better job of justifying to everyone how these dollars are actually being put to use so that there are more sheep on the mountain for everyone to hunt. Even though it may seem unfair on the surface, the result of all this money being put into the system is actually providing more sheep hunting opportunity for everyone, not just the hunters who are making the big expenditures.
FWIW, Nowhere in the RCW does it state that sheep raffle/auction money goes to benefit sheep. I stand by my previous statement....Are you sure that sheep raffle money goes to sheep? For all we know, the sheep auction money could (and probably is) going towards wolf conservation projects.
I used to work for a government agency, I have seen from the inside the rampant waste of monies, and the endless excuses/reasons to cover said excuses.
Post by: bearpaw on November 27, 2021, 07:11:51 AM
Monies go to conservation: Are you 100% sure about that? When it comes to this topic sure seems that is all a person hears, yet on the other hand most folks do not trust WDFW management, especially their management of funds.Yes, unless they violate this RCW.
I find this very interesting.
Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport due to these type permits....That is a fact
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.32.530
Conservation yes....... but how about sheep conservation?
These type of statements (not picking on you Dale) are made alot.Assuming these are raffle tickets with no cap, he probably bought a lot of tickets that didn't win. He must have bought a large number to win several times. I suspect that the amount he has spent in tickets could have purchased multiple hunts in other places.
Did the sheep he shot take away the opportunity from someone else? Yes. Did the money he has spent resulted in more sleep hunting opportunities for everyone else? Probably.
He may have also donated money to conservation causes without any direct benefit.
I do think shooting three sheep in one state seems excessive but he did it legally and playing by the same rules available to everyone.
Excellent comments Bob33
I can definitely see why hunters who have never had a chance at a sheep struggle with one guy getting three sheep in the same state, on the surface it certainly appears unfair. I wish agencies would do a better job of justifying to everyone how these dollars are actually being put to use so that there are more sheep on the mountain for everyone to hunt. Even though it may seem unfair on the surface, the result of all this money being put into the system is actually providing more sheep hunting opportunity for everyone, not just the hunters who are making the big expenditures.
FWIW, Nowhere in the RCW does it state that sheep raffle/auction money goes to benefit sheep. I stand by my previous statement....Are you sure that sheep raffle money goes to sheep? For all we know, the sheep auction money could (and probably is) going towards wolf conservation projects.
I used to work for a government agency, I have seen from the inside the rampant waste of monies, and the endless excuses/reasons to cover said excuses.
I also have some concerns like you and can see the potential for waste, so I do wonder: How is the money actually being used?
Part of my reason for saying: "I wish agencies would do a better job of justifying to everyone how these dollars are actually being put to use so that there are more sheep on the mountain for everyone to hunt."
A little accountability could go a long ways!
Post by: idaho guy on November 27, 2021, 11:22:25 AM
Post by: Stein on November 27, 2021, 11:51:29 AM
We haven't figured out a better way as people, including us, largely aren't willing to cut big checks just for the good of the animals. Likewise, people aren't willing to pay the same amount to take pictures as they are to pull triggers so hunters pick up the tab.
It is uncomfortable that we are auctioning very rare and desirable animals to rich guys, but we can't replace that money any other way. It is such a limited resource there doesn't appear to be any solution other than charge what they are worth to a couple guys and keep the price artificially low for the rest to have a slim chance at a tag. It's a reasonable compromise.
Post by: KNOPHISH on November 27, 2021, 12:28:51 PM
Post by: jackelope on November 27, 2021, 01:13:56 PM
I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
Post by: Tbar on November 27, 2021, 01:24:01 PM
It's an ethics thing for me, not money. If it's all about who spends the most then pen raise them. You don't have an issue with the only tag being auctioned off then the auctioneers business being the subsequent beneficiary via guide service?I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 27, 2021, 01:26:17 PM
Congrats to the hunter...
If you got the money spend it.
Sadly though I think allot of our quality opportunities across the board will go this direction in the future...to much money to be made selling animals to the high bidder.
Post by: jackelope on November 27, 2021, 02:09:08 PM
It's an ethics thing for me, not money. If it's all about who spends the most then pen raise them. You don't have an issue with the only tag being auctioned off then the auctioneers business being the subsequent beneficiary via guide service?I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
Does the buyer/winner of the tag have to pay and hunt with the guide? If so, I have a problem with that aspect of it.
Post by: hunter399 on November 27, 2021, 02:19:25 PM
They should do these raffles a little better.
No cap just like it is.
But after 25 tickets ,the price per ticket go up Alot.
That way the odds are not so one sided ,yet conservation money is still there,with a little better odds for the poor guy.
Post by: rtspring on November 27, 2021, 03:49:40 PM
Post by: idaho guy on November 27, 2021, 03:55:32 PM
Sacrifice one to save a thousand.
They should do these raffles a little better.
No cap just like it is.
But after 25 tickets ,the price per ticket go up Alot.
That way the odds are not so one sided ,yet conservation money is still there,with a little better odds for the poor guy.
The increasing price is a good idea 👍
Post by: idaho guy on November 27, 2021, 04:20:53 PM
I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
I don’t think anyone except maybe 1 poster 😂 is smack talking the rich guys buying tags. These threads always go to the discussion of selling wildlife to the highest bidder but most of the comments so far have been possible options on tweaking the program in my opinion. I’m not really reading any comments saying anythings wrong with the tags but just some options. I am somewhat uncomfortable selling Wildlife to the highest bidder as it is a slippery slope. At the same time I appreciate all the benefits these funds provide for conservation. I would never want to get rid of auction tags and I’m not jealous of folks who buy them. The big money tags really are subsidizing the regular draw tags which provides an affordable opportunity for the regular hunter to have at least a chance to hunt the same limited resources. Just saying everything is perfect and glorifying just the benefits of selling wildlife I think is dangerous. It’s working right now but we could definitely go too far with these. I still think the individual hunter here is kind of being a hog 😂 nothing illegal or necessarily wrong with it I just wouldn’t shoot 3 sheep out of the same herd (within in a few years )in the name of “conservation”. Other than that good for him and that ram is probably in part the result of big spenders money. It works right now but I think it’s good to be critical and try to improve the system or at least keep it from going overboard
Post by: KP-Skagit on November 27, 2021, 05:10:02 PM
It's an ethics thing for me, not money. If it's all about who spends the most then pen raise them. You don't have an issue with the only tag being auctioned off then the auctioneers business being the subsequent beneficiary via guide service?I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
Does the buyer/winner of the tag have to pay and hunt with the guide? If so, I have a problem with that aspect of it.
I'm 99% sure a family friend got that tag about 10 years ago and hunted unguided. He said his phone was ringing off the hook with folks trying to guide him but he knew the unit and didn't want to spend the money. He shot a dandy, very close to state record.
Post by: jackelope on November 27, 2021, 05:55:50 PM
It's an ethics thing for me, not money. If it's all about who spends the most then pen raise them. You don't have an issue with the only tag being auctioned off then the auctioneers business being the subsequent beneficiary via guide service?I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
Does the buyer/winner of the tag have to pay and hunt with the guide? If so, I have a problem with that aspect of it.
I'm 99% sure a family friend got that tag about 10 years ago and hunted unguided. He said his phone was ringing off the hook with folks trying to guide him but he knew the unit and didn't want to spend the money. He shot a dandy, very close to state record.
I’m 99.9% sure you don’t have to use a guide.
The ballers that “buy” the raffle tags mostly spend the money on a guide, and really there’s one guide outfit that knows those sheep better than anyone.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 27, 2021, 06:11:02 PM
I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
I don’t think anyone except maybe 1 poster 😂 is smack talking the rich guys buying tags. These threads always go to the discussion of selling wildlife to the highest bidder but most of the comments so far have been possible options on tweaking the program in my opinion. I’m not really reading any comments saying anythings wrong with the tags but just some options. I am somewhat uncomfortable selling Wildlife to the highest bidder as it is a slippery slope. At the same time I appreciate all the benefits these funds provide for conservation. I would never want to get rid of auction tags and I’m not jealous of folks who buy them. The big money tags really are subsidizing the regular draw tags which provides an affordable opportunity for the regular hunter to have at least a chance to hunt the same limited resources. Just saying everything is perfect and glorifying just the benefits of selling wildlife I think is dangerous. It’s working right now but we could definitely go too far with these. I still think the individual hunter here is kind of being a hog 😂 nothing illegal or necessarily wrong with it I just wouldn’t shoot 3 sheep out of the same herd (within in a few years )in the name of “conservation”. Other than that good for him and that ram is probably in part the result of big spenders money. It works right now but I think it’s good to be critical and try to improve the system or at least keep it from going overboard
:yeah: Its greedy and IMO, Un sportsman like. Treat others as you would like to be treated.......SHARE.
Well I hope I'm not the smack talker, but if so, oh well. It is good to be honest and voice your opinion, whether others like it or not. ;)
Why not try 1 year where raffle tickets are capped at say 20-50 per person. Many would possibly buy more than they do now (I know I would) and there is the possibility that even more $$ could be raised than currently. If it doesn't work WDFW could always go back to status quo.
WalMart and many other successful large retailers do not excel by selling only to the rich, and for high dollars.......VOLUME usually out performs most other strategies.
Post by: Stein on November 27, 2021, 07:36:40 PM
Governor's tags aren't about equity, they are about striking a balance between enough money for conservation along with as many general public tags as possible. They are designed from the ground up to be as scarce and as valuable as possible.
If the system was designed for equity, there wouldn't be any raffles or special permits, just pull names out of the hat and hand out the tags. Any time you introduce any fees, equity starts leaving the room. Many people can't afford 50 tickets, some can't even afford the special permit fees and the extra tag costs when you luck out. You have to look up and down if you want true equity.
DEBC general tags is the equity piece for big game, anything else is some version of pay to play. There are the cheap seats and the high roller table, something for everyone.
Post by: idaho guy on November 27, 2021, 07:42:23 PM
I believe this raffle is the Rocky Mountain bighorn done by WAWSF and they are very transparent with where the money is spent and what sheep projects.
It is. And they are. And maybe the guys would come on and put it all out there to see. Maybe not though, as some have decided it’s better to smack talk the big money guys who spend the money.
I don’t think anyone except maybe 1 poster 😂 is smack talking the rich guys buying tags. These threads always go to the discussion of selling wildlife to the highest bidder but most of the comments so far have been possible options on tweaking the program in my opinion. I’m not really reading any comments saying anythings wrong with the tags but just some options. I am somewhat uncomfortable selling Wildlife to the highest bidder as it is a slippery slope. At the same time I appreciate all the benefits these funds provide for conservation. I would never want to get rid of auction tags and I’m not jealous of folks who buy them. The big money tags really are subsidizing the regular draw tags which provides an affordable opportunity for the regular hunter to have at least a chance to hunt the same limited resources. Just saying everything is perfect and glorifying just the benefits of selling wildlife I think is dangerous. It’s working right now but we could definitely go too far with these. I still think the individual hunter here is kind of being a hog 😂 nothing illegal or necessarily wrong with it I just wouldn’t shoot 3 sheep out of the same herd (within in a few years )in the name of “conservation”. Other than that good for him and that ram is probably in part the result of big spenders money. It works right now but I think it’s good to be critical and try to improve the system or at least keep it from going overboard
:yeah: Its greedy and IMO, Un sportsman like. Treat others as you would like to be treated.......SHARE.
Well I hope I'm not the smack talker, but if so, oh well. It is good to be honest and voice your opinion, whether others like it or not. ;)
Why not try 1 year where raffle tickets are capped at say 20-50 per person. Many would possibly buy more than they do now (I know I would) and there is the possibility that even more $$ could be raised than currently. If it doesn't work WDFW could always go back to status quo.
WalMart and many other successful large retailers do not excel by selling only to the rich, and for high dollars.......VOLUME usually out performs most other strategies.
You’re definitely not the one talking smack.😂I agree with you/seems like if they cap raffles it would force the big guys into the auction and drive those prices up as it would be the only way to reliably get a tag. I think it could raise more money as higher auction prices and more people buying raffles knowing they won’t get flooded could actually raise more money. They should at least try it
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 27, 2021, 07:56:13 PM
Awesome ram..
Congrats to the hunter...
If you got the money spend it.
Sadly though I think allot of our quality opportunities across the board will go this direction in the future...to much money to be made selling animals to the high bidder.
Your last statement is SPOT on. :tup:
Post by: chukarchaser on November 29, 2021, 07:04:49 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 29, 2021, 07:48:26 PM
Volume works when you have many to sell, no way any extra tickets would make up for the loss of revenue from the big spenders. It's why you see paintings go to auction and not to raffle. One guy always wants it enough when there is such a limited supply.
Governor's tags aren't about equity, they are about striking a balance between enough money for conservation along with as many general public tags as possible. They are designed from the ground up to be as scarce and as valuable as possible.
If the system was designed for equity, there wouldn't be any raffles or special permits, just pull names out of the hat and hand out the tags. Any time you introduce any fees, equity starts leaving the room. Many people can't afford 50 tickets, some can't even afford the special permit fees and the extra tag costs when you luck out. You have to look up and down if you want true equity.
DEBC general tags is the equity piece for big game, anything else is some version of pay to play. There are the cheap seats and the high roller table, something for everyone.
FWIW.......Volume is selling "many". Raffle tickets are unlimited.......which equals "many". :P........ :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Stein on November 29, 2021, 07:58:03 PM
Volume works when you have many to sell, no way any extra tickets would make up for the loss of revenue from the big spenders. It's why you see paintings go to auction and not to raffle. One guy always wants it enough when there is such a limited supply.
Governor's tags aren't about equity, they are about striking a balance between enough money for conservation along with as many general public tags as possible. They are designed from the ground up to be as scarce and as valuable as possible.
If the system was designed for equity, there wouldn't be any raffles or special permits, just pull names out of the hat and hand out the tags. Any time you introduce any fees, equity starts leaving the room. Many people can't afford 50 tickets, some can't even afford the special permit fees and the extra tag costs when you luck out. You have to look up and down if you want true equity.
DEBC general tags is the equity piece for big game, anything else is some version of pay to play. There are the cheap seats and the high roller table, something for everyone.
FWIW.......Volume is selling "many". Raffle tickets are unlimited.......which equals "many". :P........ :chuckle: :chuckle:
I guess it is true WDFW has convinced many that they are in the business of selling raffle tickets and special hunt applications and there is value in collecting points and tickets. :chuckle:
Post by: nimrod67 on November 30, 2021, 06:55:49 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 30, 2021, 07:38:16 PM
Washington and holds a record !! PA doesn’t need his money since they know how to manage game properly !! 😂😂😂. Hope my 1st post in along time doesn’t tick anyone off 😮✅😂.
Post by: h20hunter on November 30, 2021, 07:39:36 PM
Post by: time2hunt on November 30, 2021, 07:43:30 PM
That’s awesome my fellow Pennsylvanian spends his fortunes inLol !! One of these days I will win the elk raffle in PA and hold your state record bull elk
Washington and holds a record !! PA doesn’t need his money since they know how to manage game properly !!. Hope my 1st post in along time doesn’t tick anyone off
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 30, 2021, 07:47:17 PM
☝️😂. Elk County baby ! Let me know when and my brother can put u on him ! ✅That’s awesome my fellow Pennsylvanian spends his fortunes inLol !! One of these days I will win the elk raffle in PA and hold your state record bull elk
Washington and holds a record !! PA doesn’t need his money since they know how to manage game properly !!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 30, 2021, 08:22:58 PM
That’s awesome my fellow Pennsylvanian spends his fortunes in
Washington and holds a record !! PA doesn’t need his money since they know how to manage game properly !! 😂😂😂. Hope my 1st post in along time doesn’t tick anyone off 😮✅😂.
Dude your back, missed your unique look at things.👍
Post by: ramslam on December 08, 2021, 03:40:48 PM
As noted in the BC article, Gary took a ram in 2015 & 2016 as well. I was on his 2015 hunt but not 2016. I know he was after a giant from the first year so went in again in 2016--he never did get that particular ram. His three WA rams have come from three different herds/GMU's.
The WA Rocky raffle has always been physically drawn by someone from WDFW and under their close supervision, guidance, audit and per WA state gambling laws. To suggest that our affiliation with WA WSF is related to our hunters winning the raffle is simply not true. We've had hunters win state WDFW managed raffles as well. ;)
There is no doubt the trend over the last ten years in all of the west raffles is for some big raffle players. Should WDFW limit the purchases? Valid point brought up by many. Since Dave Ware, et al sacrificed drawing odds 10 years ago with all the expanded categories in the name of increased revenue, I can't see it happening. I disagree that it will push raffle players to the auctions. Maybe a few, but the WA state Cali tag sold for $210k in 2020....that's above and beyond a lot of people that get into the raffle game. Not saying I am right, just my opinion. All the WA raffles generate a pile of cash and I cannot see WDFW taking the risk by limiting the number purchased. I tried like hell a few years ago to get them to cut out the multi-species raffles to no avail. I do not like that the money can be spent on anything. I also did a PDR and had WDFW put all raffle/auction expenditures on their website--although it looks like it's now been taken down. Better accountability and transparency with the revenue for sure!
I'm including a screenshot of the RCW about spending of raffle revenue. Personally, I hate that two bighorn permits are included in the multi species ones. Also, in 2004 when the Rocky raffle was being considered by the state I was notified that the commission at the time wanted to make it an auction permit. Luckily the meeting a couple days later was during my spring break so I drove up and testified that I didn't think it was right that the only rocky tag was sold. Good business move? Nope, but it was right. WA WSF stepped in and guaranteed a minimum revenue if they did the raffle so it was switched back and implemented in 2005. Yes, people that buy lots and lots of tickets are more likely to win. That said, I spent $20 on a raffle ticket to get my NM desert ram and Bryan won two state raffles with about $100 total invested. About half the people that spend the most do not win it.
Outfitting/guiding is not required for any sheep tag in WA. I know a few top notch sheep nuts on this forum and many others that love sheep that are not on here that tag along on a few hunts each year. That's awesome!
Bryan and I took a different path when we started our own venture a few years ago. We are both very passionate about wild sheep hunting and conservation. Always will be! If you ever want to chat about wild sheep hit one of us up. From Cleman Mtn to Kyrgyztan or from Asotin to Azerbaijan, we spend a lot of time hunting and talking wild sheep! We don't claim to be the best or know every ram in the state...we just spend a lot of time out there and enjoy doing what we do.
Finally, I know a few said congrats to the hunter etc but really the congrats goes to WDFW, the area Bio Paul and the Hells Canyon Initiative team. Washington raised the biggest rocky mtn bighorn ram killed anywhere in 2020! It's been a long road from the 1995-96 die-off but the future is bright (if they can stay clean)!!!
Thanks
Glen
Post by: Dan-o on December 08, 2021, 03:48:05 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 08, 2021, 04:15:23 PM
Fact is that if you force the whales out, we aren't gonna make up the lost ticket sales with ones and two's. People get all up in arms because a big money player wins but the cold hard fact is all tickets have a chance and whether its 500 guys with a total of 10,000 tickets or 10,000 guys with a total of 10,000 tickets, there's still 10,000 in the tumbler and your odds are the exact same.
Post by: idaho guy on December 08, 2021, 06:41:48 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 08, 2021, 07:37:15 PM
I've been around a bit of contract language in my life. "Revenue from the sale of single species raffle permits shall be used for the management of that species"
Define management?
Restoring wolves to the countryside could equate to "putting nature back in balance" or "sheep have long been sharing the landscape with wolves, nature's way of controlling the sheep population/diseases/etc."
There are unlimited numbers of ways to get around "contract" / RCW language. Again are we sure that the money is being spent how we "think"?
Lastly, lots of folks on here love to help other hunters out, even forgoing the chance to tag out themselves so they can better the odds for their protege. Good for you, I have did the same. Seems ironic that we support that, while at the same time we are OK with the wealthy folks buying their way into multiple sheep kills? YES, I know thats how the world turns.......
I just prefer to let others that enjoy the same sport of hunting to hopefully have the same experiences that I have had. Greed is a negative thing for me. :twocents: