Post by: ljsommer on January 18, 2022, 02:07:37 PM
Note that this info impacts lottery draws as well as OTC, and it impacts residential hunting experience as well as out of state, as the total hunt populations in the field (relative to huntable land) has skyrocketed. I was musing that the sport of hunting feels like a different animal, in the face of these changes to the landscape. From the article:
"Between 2016 and 2021, the number of buck antelope tags in Wyoming that could be drawn with zero preference points in the regular drawing has been nearly cut in half. And of those zero-point hunts that do remain, most are in units that consist of mostly private land or that have very difficult public land access.
All across the West, demand for tags and hunting opportunities has seen unprecedented growth. In Montana, for instance, the overall nonresident Big Game Combo tag has gone from a 100% draw rate in 2016 to about 54% in the most recent draw. In 2021, there were more than 11,000 nonresident applicants who were unsuccessful in the Combo tag draws.
Colorado, the undisputed king of hunting opportunity in the West, has seen overall applicant numbers and participation skyrocket. Nonresident limited-entry deer and elk applicants have grown by nearly 50% since 2016, and residents have seen an increase of about 14,000 applicants in that same period.
And as the last remaining stronghold for true nonresident, over-the-counter (OTC) bull elk hunt opportunities in the West, Colorado’s public lands are getting crowded. According to Colorado Wildlife & Parks, in 2021 the total number of over the counter elk tags sold across all seasons was greater than 92,000. If you factor in the former OTC archery units that transitioned to draw in 2020, tag sales in OTC areas are at an all-time high. Unfortunately, it’s getting increasingly common to hear stories about some of Colorado’s most popular hunt areas feeling more like an amusement park than an isolated backcountry experience."
https://www.onxmaps.com/hunt/blog/hunting-draw-odds-overcoming-increasing-demand
https://www.onxmaps.com/hunt/blog/how-to-draw-hunting-tags
Post by: Platensek-po on January 18, 2022, 02:35:35 PM
Post by: buckfvr on January 18, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Post by: Parasite on January 18, 2022, 04:07:39 PM
Post by: Stein on January 18, 2022, 04:12:00 PM
It's certainly a trend, but they cherry picked the WY antelope data to include real bad winter kill years which is not expected to be the new norm.
Hopefully articles like that dampen people, I think it will at least plateau once the people that have never hunting in the west show up, drive some roads and realize it isn't like on TV. I bet a bunch are done after one or two years.
Post by: millerwheeler on January 18, 2022, 04:33:23 PM
I've pretty much decided to give up on hunting in 2022 due to declining opportunities and less enjoyment. I only plan on going after whitetail deer in Illinois and that's it. I'd rather spend my time fishing. I hate the point schemes (they are not systems), declining numbers of places to hunt, units, limited seasons, too many rules, and excessive fees. I'll go buy beef in the store.
While I see your perspective, don’t you feel the heritage, challenge , time spent out and about are better than just quitting ? I’m right there with the frustration but can’t imagine my life or my families life without hunting and all the joy it brings even without a successful harvest every time
As sportsman we all need each other
Post by: Parasite on January 18, 2022, 04:42:53 PM
I've pretty much decided to give up on hunting in 2022 due to declining opportunities and less enjoyment. I only plan on going after whitetail deer in Illinois and that's it. I'd rather spend my time fishing. I hate the point schemes (they are not systems), declining numbers of places to hunt, units, limited seasons, too many rules, and excessive fees. I'll go buy beef in the store.
While I see your perspective, don’t you feel the heritage, challenge , time spent out and about are better than just quitting ? I’m right there with the frustration but can’t imagine my life or my families life without hunting and all the joy it brings even without a successful harvest every time
As sportsman we all need each other
Post by: ljsommer on January 18, 2022, 04:53:31 PM
That said, I think the trend is concerning, and the idea that you've got thousands of hunters who are applying for everything in every state possible really does feel like the spirit of hunting has changed. The points systems don't help, but they're such a cash cow that they're not going away.
On that topic, I meant to ask: What are all these fish and wildlife state agencies doing with this newfound windfall of wheelbarrow loads of cash?
Post by: idaho guy on January 18, 2022, 05:07:11 PM
Sad thing is that grim picture is so much better than what is going on here.
It's certainly a trend, but they cherry picked the WY antelope data to include real bad winter kill years which is not expected to be the new norm.
Hopefully articles like that dampen people, I think it will at least plateau once the people that have never hunting in the west show up, drive some roads and realize it isn't like on TV. I bet a bunch are done after one or two years.
I hope you are right and I do tend to agree with you. (probably wishful thinking on my part :chuckle:)I don't think its hunting that is blowing up just WESTERN hunting and that is where I agree with Matt Rinella on the negative of sm. Hopefully people have a reality check on the hype created over western hunting when they actually experience it. I have actually been thinking about some deer hunts in midwest and southern states lol. Probably hardly any competition since they are all heading west! The prices and available tags are way better than most western states.
Post by: jrebel on January 18, 2022, 05:15:29 PM
Same is true for guided hunts. Right now you may have to book a few years out and guides are thriving. It will get to where prices drop and they are begging for hunters as the economy doesn't support paying guide prices. Just ask a guide that's been in the business for a couple decades.
Very cyclic.....
Post by: Jingles on January 18, 2022, 05:38:38 PM
Totally believable all one has to do is see the number of shows on the outdoors shows and see the number of the "East Coasters" that are coming west for their hunts.
Post by: Bareback on January 18, 2022, 05:39:05 PM
Applies to fishing too. When fuel exceeds 100 bones for the day, participation drops……. $5/gallon is just around the corner.
Post by: metlhead on January 18, 2022, 07:43:04 PM
Post by: HooknoseHunter on January 18, 2022, 08:05:33 PM
Invest in dirt and hunt your own critters. The south figured that out years ago with the lack of quality public land. It just takes a focused goal and a budget.
While I agree that buying property is always a good thing I PRAY we in the NW ever have to move to the leased land system like they do in the South. I’ve lived in the south (Arkansas/Alabama/Texas) for 11 out of the last 18 years and I can tell you personally that leases and hunting clubs SUCK. You have to follow the clubs”rules” and then designate which stand or area you plan to hunt blah blah blah. It’s not real hunting. Like others posted above, I could care less to harvest an animal, I just enjoy family, friends, guns and beer. Not necessarily in that order. As I’ve gotten older I mainly hunt on my property or families property but the option to hunt on vast swathes of public land is a unique thing to the west and we should fight to keep it! I will say the only thing that annoys me out here is people with OnX who make it their lives work to access land locked public ground. Let the land owners enjoy their fruits.
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on January 21, 2022, 07:32:58 PM
You had me until your last sentence, the ability to buy some dirt should not entitle you or anyone else to dirt that is owned by the public trust any more than the rest of us. Allowing the landowners to enjoy “their fruits” as you say is a long ways from what you seem to be implying in that elitist statement.Invest in dirt and hunt your own critters. The south figured that out years ago with the lack of quality public land. It just takes a focused goal and a budget.
While I agree that buying property is always a good thing I PRAY we in the NW ever have to move to the leased land system like they do in the South. I’ve lived in the south (Arkansas/Alabama/Texas) for 11 out of the last 18 years and I can tell you personally that leases and hunting clubs SUCK. You have to follow the clubs”rules” and then designate which stand or area you plan to hunt blah blah blah. It’s not real hunting. Like others posted above, I could care less to harvest an animal, I just enjoy family, friends, guns and beer. Not necessarily in that order. As I’ve gotten older I mainly hunt on my property or families property but the option to hunt on vast swathes of public land is a unique thing to the west and we should fight to keep it! I will say the only thing that annoys me out here is people with OnX who make it their lives work to access land locked public ground. Let the land owners enjoy their fruits.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: idaho guy on January 21, 2022, 07:47:21 PM
You had me until your last sentence, the ability to buy some dirt should not entitle you or anyone else to dirt that is owned by the public trust any more than the rest of us. Allowing the landowners to enjoy “their fruits” as you say is a long ways from what you seem to be implying in that elitist statement.Invest in dirt and hunt your own critters. The south figured that out years ago with the lack of quality public land. It just takes a focused goal and a budget.
While I agree that buying property is always a good thing I PRAY we in the NW ever have to move to the leased land system like they do in the South. I’ve lived in the south (Arkansas/Alabama/Texas) for 11 out of the last 18 years and I can tell you personally that leases and hunting clubs SUCK. You have to follow the clubs”rules” and then designate which stand or area you plan to hunt blah blah blah. It’s not real hunting. Like others posted above, I could care less to harvest an animal, I just enjoy family, friends, guns and beer. Not necessarily in that order. As I’ve gotten older I mainly hunt on my property or families property but the option to hunt on vast swathes of public land is a unique thing to the west and we should fight to keep it! I will say the only thing that annoys me out here is people with OnX who make it their lives work to access land locked public ground. Let the land owners enjoy their fruits.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed everything made sense till disliking people finding access to public ground with on x? Kinda backwards if you love the ability to freely roam public land out west, one of the biggest issues to maintaining that freedom is unlocking public land cut off by private. Confused
Post by: follow maggie on January 22, 2022, 11:15:14 AM
You had me until your last sentence, the ability to buy some dirt should not entitle you or anyone else to dirt that is owned by the public trust any more than the rest of us. Allowing the landowners to enjoy “their fruits” as you say is a long ways from what you seem to be implying in that elitist statement.Invest in dirt and hunt your own critters. The south figured that out years ago with the lack of quality public land. It just takes a focused goal and a budget.
While I agree that buying property is always a good thing I PRAY we in the NW ever have to move to the leased land system like they do in the South. I’ve lived in the south (Arkansas/Alabama/Texas) for 11 out of the last 18 years and I can tell you personally that leases and hunting clubs SUCK. You have to follow the clubs”rules” and then designate which stand or area you plan to hunt blah blah blah. It’s not real hunting. Like others posted above, I could care less to harvest an animal, I just enjoy family, friends, guns and beer. Not necessarily in that order. As I’ve gotten older I mainly hunt on my property or families property but the option to hunt on vast swathes of public land is a unique thing to the west and we should fight to keep it! I will say the only thing that annoys me out here is people with OnX who make it their lives work to access land locked public ground. Let the land owners enjoy their fruits.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed everything made sense till disliking people finding access to public ground with on x? Kinda backwards if you love the ability to freely roam public land out west, one of the biggest issues to maintaining that freedom is unlocking public land cut off by private. Confused
:yeah:
Post by: HooknoseHunter on January 22, 2022, 10:09:11 PM
Post by: Wphunt on January 23, 2022, 09:45:12 AM
Post by: idaho guy on January 23, 2022, 06:24:05 PM
This goes back to some stuff Matt Rinella talked about. I don’t agree with everything he had to say but a lot of it I did. There probably aren’t more hunters than there have been historically. There are way more hunters going farther and hunting more though. There are more guys coming from the east but there are also a bunch of guys with YouTube channels getting 3+ elk tags per year, plus deer antelope etc. That makes more people from the east travel west to hunt and more people try to be influencers, eating up all of the tags. I have no problem with people hunting out of state or coming from the east or guiding/outfitting. A bunch of people trying to make a living by killing more than they need of a very limited resource is what I do have an issue with. Some “influencers” do a better job than others. The content focused more on instruction is good and a few do a good job with the “why” of hunting. A lot of others are just about kill shots every week. I go back and forth on this, but it for sure eats up tags.
[
:yeah:
Post by: highcountry_hunter on January 23, 2022, 07:24:13 PM
I've pretty much decided to give up on hunting in 2022 due to declining opportunities and less enjoyment. I only plan on going after whitetail deer in Illinois and that's it. I'd rather spend my time fishing. I hate the point schemes (they are not systems), declining numbers of places to hunt, units, limited seasons, too many rules, and excessive fees. I'll go buy beef in the store.
Nothing against you personally, but these are the kinds of comments I love to see. One less person in the already overcrowded woods.
Post by: huntnnw on January 23, 2022, 09:19:30 PM
I've pretty much decided to give up on hunting in 2022 due to declining opportunities and less enjoyment. I only plan on going after whitetail deer in Illinois and that's it. I'd rather spend my time fishing. I hate the point schemes (they are not systems), declining numbers of places to hunt, units, limited seasons, too many rules, and excessive fees. I'll go buy beef in the store.
Nothing against you personally, but these are the kinds of comments I love to see. One less person in the already overcrowded woods.
yup! thats someone who doesnt live for it. Thats something Id never say or do.
Post by: pickardjw on January 24, 2022, 08:38:59 AM
Create software that makes it easier for people to hunt public land out West -> write articles about how many new hunters are doing DIY public land hunting out West.
Post by: Wphunt on January 24, 2022, 09:41:25 AM
Post by: Special T on January 24, 2022, 10:02:10 AM
Something I am going to try one of these years is hunting east. I have some family in Tennessee and they seem to have a deer problem. A non resident license is 305$. That gets you 2 bucks and 4+ does as well as turkey, small game etc. Their deer season is almost 100 days long too. I could probably fly there and harvest several deer for less than an Idaho deer tag.
I hunted Arkansas and had a great time. A friend secured several pieces for us to hunt and if your shooting does I would think permission would be easier
Post by: Sundance on January 24, 2022, 11:00:24 AM
Post by: Stein on January 24, 2022, 11:06:33 AM
Something I am going to try one of these years is hunting east. I have some family in Tennessee and they seem to have a deer problem. A non resident license is 305$. That gets you 2 bucks and 4+ does as well as turkey, small game etc. Their deer season is almost 100 days long too. I could probably fly there and harvest several deer for less than an Idaho deer tag.
Me too, Virginia in the fall. Tags OTC, you can buy more than you want for a reasonable cost and tons of deer. My brother has permission all around, many people seem happy to allow hunting on their property. Little to no public, but I look forward to a totally different style of hunting.
Post by: WSU on January 24, 2022, 11:18:46 AM
Post by: Ironhead on January 24, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
I'm just happy that I rarely hear people say "going out of state this year to Washington". I'm not saying we have a great state for hunting, but poor statistics definitely keeps new hunters from exploring our opportunities.
This statement cracked me up.
Post by: Sundance on January 24, 2022, 01:50:09 PM
I'm just happy that I rarely hear people say "going out of state this year to Washington". I'm not saying we have a great state for hunting, but poor statistics definitely keeps new hunters from exploring our opportunities.
This statement cracked me up.
It sounds silly, but then name a state where you can buy an OTC tag and hunt whitetail, mule deer, or blacktail over a 3-1/2 week period with a rifle with that single tag.
Post by: Stein on January 24, 2022, 02:36:58 PM
I'm just happy that I rarely hear people say "going out of state this year to Washington". I'm not saying we have a great state for hunting, but poor statistics definitely keeps new hunters from exploring our opportunities.
This statement cracked me up.
It sounds silly, but then name a state where you can buy an OTC tag and hunt whitetail, mule deer, or blacktail over a 3-1/2 week period with a rifle with that single tag.
Move to any other western state and you can. In MT, you get 10-12 weeks with any legal weapon for example, all for less than WA. $100 less if you buy the multi season.
I'm glad to do my part to help you guys out. I understand why you hunt here, we can probably agree to hunt different states and both be happy about it.
Post by: Platensek-po on January 24, 2022, 02:38:38 PM
I'm just happy that I rarely hear people say "going out of state this year to Washington". I'm not saying we have a great state for hunting, but poor statistics definitely keeps new hunters from exploring our opportunities.
This statement cracked me up.
It sounds silly, but then name a state where you can buy an OTC tag and hunt whitetail, mule deer, or blacktail over a 3-1/2 week period with a rifle with that single tag.
Move to any other western state and you can. In MT, you get 10-12 weeks with any legal weapon for example, all for less than WA. $100 less if you buy the multi season.
I'm glad to do my part to help you guys out. I understand why you hunt here, we can probably agree to hunt different states and both be happy about it.
You can hunt black tail in montana? :dunno:
Post by: Stein on January 24, 2022, 02:53:59 PM
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 24, 2022, 03:40:42 PM
Post by: ljsommer on January 24, 2022, 04:25:39 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on January 24, 2022, 04:53:19 PM
Out of curiosity, how much do people actually care about "being able to hunt all 3 species"? Compared to just having a high quality hunt experience for one or two species, how would you stack-rank the ability to drive to the soggy thick forests of Western WA and then hunt mulies in the mountains/east side, and then drive to the border to hunt white tails? Is that a thing people actually do? If so, would you call that a critical piece of your hunting experience?
I like the idea of it more than I actually like or do it. Honestly it’s cool and all but not a huge draw for me. Honestly looking at some of those eastern states being able to harvest multiple deer a season would be better than being able to harvest a different deer each year.
Post by: Ironhead on January 24, 2022, 05:19:01 PM
I'm just happy that I rarely hear people say "going out of state this year to Washington". I'm not saying we have a great state for hunting, but poor statistics definitely keeps new hunters from exploring our opportunities.
This statement cracked me up.
It sounds silly, but then name a state where you can buy an OTC tag and hunt whitetail, mule deer, or blacktail over a 3-1/2 week period with a rifle with that single tag.
Well how about this instead...How about Mule Deer, Whitetail and Branch Antlered Elk in ID, MT and WY. With a hell of a lot better harvest rates.
Post by: ghosthunter on January 24, 2022, 06:02:50 PM
I talk about Idaho once in awhile couple buddies moved there. But a grandson keeps me hunting here.
I retired the end of last year, and this year I and retired buddies will be out scouting new grounds. I worked till 70 so I could afford to spend more time out hunting. Oh you won’t see us five miles in but we will be out there. We intend to scout new spots four days every month till seasons open. We have all the time in the world, if we choose a new place we will have our choice of camp spots because we have the resources to get there sooner and stay there longer. We don’t mind other hunters because most don’t have the time we have to put in. We didn’t get hung up in the big rv life style, we use Canvas tents and small trailers which helps us stay flexible and gets into camps where the big RV crowd can’t go. For now I will play the Washington game.
When we scout a spot we go there and we sleep there for four days or more. We let the animals do there thing and we watch. Oh yeah the big deer won’t be there , but if it holds deer before season it will hold deer during season. We have used this tactic many times to pick spots.
Post by: GWP on January 24, 2022, 07:15:18 PM
Scouting and camping is great fun. Happy for ya!
Post by: Bigshooter on January 24, 2022, 09:24:53 PM
We have just came off of 4 or 5 years of a screaming along economy. It is already slowing down. People will stop applying as the economy slows down. Less people applying will make getting a tag easier. But the same amount of animals will be available to hunt.
If you are worried about less tags pray for light winters and wet springs!
Post by: ghosthunter on January 24, 2022, 11:14:20 PM
I guess all the break in’s on vehicles would make me nervous to leave ANYTHING un attended. Both of our trailers were broken into, and they went over a 5’ fence to do it! Hauled a 75 lb forklift batt over it as well!
Scouting and camping is great fun. Happy for ya!
Security is on everyones mind. Skagit county has a car or truck stolen almost every day. County sheriffs have responded to 27 car break ins at trail heads, waterfowl sites too. It’s every where because the prosecutors are not charging property crimes. It a free ride.
But I refuse to let that deter me from out door activities. I just bought additional alarms for my truck tonight. Doing what I can to make a lot of noise if they mess with it.
Sorry for the degress. Back to the OP topic. :sry:
Post by: dagon on February 10, 2022, 07:47:29 AM
Post by: Stein on February 10, 2022, 07:53:48 AM
Unfortunately there are tons of guys with tons of points. I don't actually apply to hunt in WY until I have enough points for over 80% odds and can fit it into my schedule, so I never show up in the stats or odds.
Post by: Sundance on February 10, 2022, 10:45:16 AM
Post by: Sundance on February 10, 2022, 10:58:36 AM
Out of curiosity, how much do people actually care about "being able to hunt all 3 species"? Compared to just having a high quality hunt experience for one or two species, how would you stack-rank the ability to drive to the soggy thick forests of Western WA and then hunt mulies in the mountains/east side, and then drive to the border to hunt white tails? Is that a thing people actually do? If so, would you call that a critical piece of your hunting experience?
I kicked around the idea of having a two tag system- one just as it is and the other a multiseason for a single GMU. Idea being that someone could pay the regular rate and get a multiseason tag for a specific unit, or stay with the current system. I'd thought it would be nice to just focus on one unit and have 4-months to hunt, but I now prefer the flexibility to move around. I hunted 10 GMU's in 2020 for blacktail, most of those only being 1-day but still I enjoy being able to bounce around.