Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: 85yota on February 10, 2022, 10:22:26 AM

Title: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: 85yota on February 10, 2022, 10:22:26 AM: Do blacktails grow double throat patches or are they born with them.. we think a buck in our area now has a double throat patch at lets say age 4 when at age 3 he didnt.. antlers are gone so we can't for sure tell but this doesn't seem right.. whats your guys opinion on if bucks can develope DOUBLE throat patches or not
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: KNOPHISH on February 10, 2022, 11:24:21 AM: Yep, I had a nice one that I didn’t cape and didn’t realize it till the pictures. :bash:
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: HntnFsh on February 10, 2022, 12:31:26 PM: I think they develop them.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: meatwhack on February 10, 2022, 06:20:33 PM: I think it’s a genetic they either have or they don’t.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: 85yota on February 10, 2022, 09:05:26 PM: Yea we love double throat patch bucks but we've always been curious if anyone has cam photos of them getting them in older years or if it was a genetic trait..
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: Jpmiller on February 11, 2022, 02:10:28 AM: As I think about it now I don't remember seeing any real young bucks with them but that's going off memory. That's a really interesting question I hope someone can answer this.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 11, 2022, 05:55:58 AM: The Sitka Blacktail of Kodiak have the double white patch at least those I have hunted and seen.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: HntnFsh on February 11, 2022, 06:19:35 AM: Quote from: Jpmiller on February 11, 2022, 02:10:28 AM
As I think about it now I don't remember seeing any real young bucks with them but that's going off memory. That's a really interesting question I hope someone can answer this.

Thats what got me to thinking that they develop them.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: highside74 on February 11, 2022, 08:28:36 AM: I have 2 on my wall.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on February 12, 2022, 11:47:43 AM: I personally think its a genetic thing. I have seen plenty of young deer with it including antlerless deer and old age class bucks without.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: JakeLand on February 12, 2022, 01:32:25 PM: Quote from: blackveltbowhunter on February 12, 2022, 11:47:43 AM
I personally think its a genetic thing. I have seen plenty of young deer with it including antlerless deer and old age class bucks without.
same here like eye guards I think genetics
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: slim9300 on April 03, 2022, 11:46:52 AM: It’s pretty common where we hunt. The flash wipes out the color here. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220403/9125f4d39c36914a0112f43c41889d34.jpg)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: fishnfur on May 17, 2022, 10:33:38 PM: Nice Buck Slim9300. I'd guess that it is a genetic trait that is expressed to a greater extent as the animal ages. Much like Male Pattern Baldness and/or complete change of hair color from dark to silver, the older the human, the more impressive the change is compared to normal youth appearance. There definitely seems to be some level of genetic expression throughout the range of BT deer.

I've always felt that the average Sitka Blacktail double throat patch was often much more substantial/impressive than those seen in BT deer significantly south of that region. From memory - they are essentially the same animal genetically. The few genetic traits that differentiate them from herds farther south likely resulted from their (small) population's isolation following the last major glaciation in N. America. A Founder Effect type small population of deer migrated north from SW WA/NW OR to populate areas north. Thousand of years of interbreeding resulted in a situation of reduced genetic diversity in that population, which likely strengthened of traits like the double throat patch, and reduced body size in size, (which is often seen in populations experiencing limited food resources), but similarly, created genetic problems not seen in deer populations south of there. Certainly, there doesn't seem to be a genetic advantage for a deer to have a double throat patch (unless the breeding females find it more impressive than animals without the trait......often seen in birds etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jim-Heffelfinger/publication/24216147_Species-wide_phylogeography_of_North_American_mule_deer_Odocoileus_hemionus_Cryptic_glacial_refugia_and_postglacial_recolonization/links/5a146f7945851500521301ea/Species-wide-phylogeography-of-North-American-mule-deer-Odocoileus-hemionus-Cryptic-glacial-refugia-and-postglacial-recolonization.pdf

From the abstract of that paper:

"Patterns of genetic diversity within the black-tailed deer
lineage suggest a single refugium along the Pacific Northwest coast, and refute the hypothesis
that black-tailed deer persisted in one or more northern refugia. Our data suggest that
black-tailed deer recolonized areas in accordance with the pattern of glacial retreat, with
initial recolonization northward along a coastal route and secondary recolonization inland."

example: 70% of Sitka BTD have condition where neither testes descend: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.544.2888&rep=rep1&type=pdf

I didn't read this so it may completely refute my theory.....

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/cordilleran-ice-sheet

(not my trophy) Taken from Google images of Sitka BT deer
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 18, 2022, 05:30:46 AM: Double patches are common on Kodiak deer
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: 85yota on May 18, 2022, 08:26:47 PM: Thanks for the responses and I've noticed Sitka seem to have them a lot.. taxi I know will take double t patch capes for trade on other taxi work, this seems to be for guys who butcher there capes or didn't realize it was double t patch until they look at pics later.. nothing beats a mature double t patch imop but we've been trying to figure out when/why it happens.. turns out the deer we thought developmental them was a different buck that now lives in the area and his look alike is still non double..
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: Old Man8383 on May 26, 2022, 09:24:01 AM: Of the many 1,000's of blacktail I've observed over the years in Western Washington double throat patches are more common in some areas than others, so I've always thought it was a localized genetics. It doesn't seem to be more prevalent on the coast that the Cascades. I have seen very few does with a double throat patch. Older bucks seem to have more distinct double throat patches than younger bucks. But I've seen very bright well defined double patches on spikes as well. I agree that a large mature blacktail buck with a black skull cap and a bright well defined double throat patch is a very beautiful animal.
Title: Re: Blacktail double throat patch
Post by: BlackRiverTaxidermy on May 26, 2022, 01:08:24 PM: I get to see a lot of blacktails through the door and it’s always fun to see how unique and different in coloration and other specific characteristics. I will be the first to admit I am no biologist but from my take on double throats it’s truly a genetic thing. I’ve seen spikes with a prominent double throat and then an older buck with none. Furthermore I see a fair amount of double throats in real faint or bold outlines varying from white to an off white/yellowish hue. And this is true for both bucks and does in the columbian blacktail. Every sitka blacktail I’ve ever done has a real prominent and bold double.
I can tell you I do see them come from everywhere but I’ve seen a lot more blacktails with the doubles come out of Pacific county. There’s a good genetic base of doubles in Capital Peak area too where I see a lot of those bucks also sporting very prominent brows, which is another genetic blacktail trait.
Fun conversation and cool to see the input on this subject. No matter your belief, ideas, or experience I think it’s a collective agreement that the doubles are awesome!!