Post by: Brushcrawler on May 19, 2022, 07:16:04 PM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/news/wdfw-invites-public-comment-rule-making-cougar-hunting-and-regulations
Because of the way the surveys are being run now, anyone from anywhere in the world can comment and WDFW can’t tell who is who. In order to keep up with the national and international anti-hunting groups we should be looking to RMEF, SCI, BHA, Meateater, Randy Newberg and any other group that can help to recruit hunters everywhere to comment, so we don’t have a repeat of spring bear.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 19, 2022, 07:25:09 PM
Post by: Cougartail on May 19, 2022, 07:51:02 PM
Sorry if I’m being negative but if 100% of public comments were for spring bear, I believe the commission would have still voted it down. I truly believe this commision don’t give two chits what the public says, much less WDFW biologist.
:yeah: They know best because most of them sleep with teddy bears and watch Disney.
Post by: hunter399 on May 19, 2022, 08:34:39 PM
So true so true.Sorry if I’m being negative but if 100% of public comments were for spring bear, I believe the commission would have still voted it down. I truly believe this commision don’t give two chits what the public says, much less WDFW biologist.
:yeah: They know best because most of them sleep with teddy bears and watch Disney.
I don't see any harm in supporting more opportunity for hunters.
At the same time if this is "happening" in the Blues,
What's to say it isn't in the whole state.
Hehehehe :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Post by: Timberstalker on May 19, 2022, 08:40:18 PM
It’s very unlikely to kill one lion, let alone two, but this is a step in the right direction.
Post by: idaho guy on May 19, 2022, 09:11:26 PM
Post by: ZaneHunts on May 19, 2022, 09:21:00 PM
Commented my support and starting my sharing spree
Post by: PsoasHunter on May 20, 2022, 12:03:29 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on May 20, 2022, 05:40:05 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 20, 2022, 05:40:45 AM
Post by: hunter399 on May 20, 2022, 06:35:05 AM
If I read that correct, will not change the overall quantity of cats killed per harvest "guidelines"......just allows some hunters to kill more than 1That may be true. But it will allow more cats killed in high depredations areas ,which should help ungulates.
Post by: Timberstalker on May 20, 2022, 06:43:43 AM
If I read that correct, will not change the overall quantity of cats killed per harvest "guidelines"......just allows some hunters to kill more than 1
No, this will allow more cats to be killed because they don’t govern the number of cats killed before January 1.
In theory, all of us could kill 2 cats this year before January 1, whereas last year we could’ve only killed 1 cat each.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 20, 2022, 07:10:13 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on May 20, 2022, 07:27:53 AM
Another comment about supporting hunting to a mostly anti hunting commission… this is exactly what it’s like talking to my 5 year old yorkie, I wonder if some of the commisioners turn their heads slightly when the read these comments?? You could take away limits completely and it wouldn’t put a dent in the cougar population, they just don’t get harvested enough by boot hunters. Only way to control cougar populations in critical areas, hounds. Ahh, now I just lost the anti hunting commisioners, heads just turned back straight and swiped away the comment….
Post by: Timberstalker on May 20, 2022, 07:43:45 AM
I get your sentiments, but remember, we have to try and rebuild the predator control somehow!
I agree, we need hounds. I agree, we need bait, but you and I both know, in this state we aren't going to get the whole buffet line at once.
This change is positive and a step in the right direction.
:twocents:
Post by: RB on May 20, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Jerry:
I get your sentiments, but remember, we have to try and rebuild the predator control somehow!
I agree, we need hounds. I agree, we need bait, but you and I both know, in this state we aren't going to get the whole buffet line at once.
This change is positive and a step in the right direction.
:twocents:
:yeah:
Post by: hunter399 on May 20, 2022, 07:53:47 AM
Honest question, if they took away limits completely on cougar, how many more cats would be killed? What is the percentage of hunters that have even seen one cat in the past 5 years, 10 years?? I’ve spent tons of hours glassing in the blues, sitting for hours watching hill sides, never saw a cat over there. I know we have a big cat problem, but allowing one more cate to be killed will save the elk and deer? Hell, I’d like to see one cat per 100 hunters get killed. I’ll comment, but it’s not even a band aid on a open wound that’s pumping blood. If The WDFW really want to help, they’d push for changing hounds and baiting laws.Honestly they could take away quotas in SOME areas.
Look at NE WA .
And the meat eater episode the other day.
60+ removal a year.
That tells me more opportunity should go to hunters with longer seasons and less quotas.
Just wanted to add that these hounds men do a great job at safety removal ECT.
But an August opener,or two cat limit in problem areas for NE WA should also be going on for some areas.
Post by: RB on May 20, 2022, 07:54:03 AM
Here is what we are up against the lack of knowledge in this persons statement is mind boggling!
"Why don't you reduce human hunting of elk until the population bounces back? Killing off a part of the ecosystem doesn't make sense. Cougars can never do as much damage as advanced hunters who use technology. Please compare how many humans kill off elk vs cougars in the area".
Post by: Stein on May 20, 2022, 08:56:07 AM
Post by: rainshadow1 on May 20, 2022, 09:03:32 AM
But we may as well comment when the door opens a crack for it. Think carefully and address the core issue. More people see what we say every time we're able to say it. Do what you can where you can.
People following these appointed politicians are ENTHUSIASTICALLY IGNORANT!!!
Post by: trophyhunt on May 20, 2022, 09:14:03 AM
Jerry:I agree with ya, hell, im sure I’ve never disagreed w ya! :chuckle:
I get your sentiments, but remember, we have to try and rebuild the predator control somehow!
I agree, we need hounds. I agree, we need bait, but you and I both know, in this state we aren't going to get the whole buffet line at once.
This change is positive and a step in the right direction.
:twocents:
Post by: Timberstalker on May 20, 2022, 09:59:31 AM
Post by: Meow on May 20, 2022, 10:35:26 AM
The cougar opener should be moved up to August 1st to match bears state wide, or at the very least in the SE and NE units. I bet that would get a lot more people out when access is easy pressure is relatively low, and there's not a lot else to hunt. Would be a shame to call in a cougar while bear hunting and have to let it go.Honest question, if they took away limits completely on cougar, how many more cats would be killed? What is the percentage of hunters that have even seen one cat in the past 5 years, 10 years?? I’ve spent tons of hours glassing in the blues, sitting for hours watching hill sides, never saw a cat over there. I know we have a big cat problem, but allowing one more cate to be killed will save the elk and deer? Hell, I’d like to see one cat per 100 hunters get killed. I’ll comment, but it’s not even a band aid on a open wound that’s pumping blood. If The WDFW really want to help, they’d push for changing hounds and baiting laws.Honestly they could take away quotas in SOME areas.
Look at NE WA .
And the meat eater episode the other day.
60+ removal a year.
That tells me more opportunity should go to hunters with longer seasons and less quotas.
Just wanted to add that these hounds men do a great job at safety removal ECT.
But an August opener,or two cat limit in problem areas for NE WA should also be going on for some areas.
As trophyhunt stated, adjusting the limit alone doesn't seem like it will greatly increase the number of cats killed, as they're so elusive.
Post by: buckfvr on May 20, 2022, 10:43:45 AM
Here is what we are up against the lack of knowledge in this persons statement is mind boggling!
"Why don't you reduce human hunting of elk until the population bounces back? Killing off a part of the ecosystem doesn't make sense. Cougars can never do as much damage as advanced hunters who use technology. Please compare how many humans kill off elk vs cougars in the area".
Obviously this person knows absolutely zero his/herself. This person is what I call a repeater as they and many others are only capable of repeating rhetoric supplied by anti hunting groups. This is all likely to go the route of spring bear anyway as the attack on hunters continues.
Post by: Special T on May 20, 2022, 11:40:48 AM
Post by: elksnout on June 01, 2022, 10:05:28 PM
elksnout
Post by: hunter399 on June 02, 2022, 04:57:42 AM
Thanks for the link comment added more tags!
Here is what we are up against the lack of knowledge in this persons statement is mind boggling!
"Why don't you reduce human hunting of elk until the population bounces back? Killing off a part of the ecosystem doesn't make sense. Cougars can never do as much damage as advanced hunters who use technology. Please compare how many humans kill off elk vs cougars in the area".
It's pretty obvious that antlerless hunts should be put on hold. I don't think any hunters want to destroy an ecosystem.
At the same time ungulate and predators need management to equal the playing field in order to keep a equal balance between ungulate and predator and humans.
I'm no expert on the Blues elk herd.
Wolves are not being managed in Washington. I'm a firm believer that these cougar are trying to adapt to a new ecosystem. Cougar was top predator ,not any more.
A pecking order so to speak.
What happens when you kill A lot of coyote in area?
The next year they have bigger litters,and even more coyote appear.
This is just a thought......
Cougar are adapteing by breeding more,bigger litters.
Also if a cougar kills an Elk,eats,covers the kill.
Then other predators find that and eat it.
Will cause that cougar to kill another Elk.
Wolves and coyote will eat anything dead or alive.
The ecosystem is changing......
99% of hunters have some conservationists in them.
At the same time,we also don't want to lose hunting as recreation and food for the freezer.
There is supposed to be a predator/prey study coming out.
But I assume it will protect wolves at all cost. And will really do nothing to add insight to some of what I mentioned above.
The sad reality is....
More than likely if Elk numbers continue to drop in coming years. WDFW big plan will be to turn elk hunting there into permit draw hunting only.
Just some things to think about our current ecosystem
Wanted to add this....
You could kill every cougar in the state,and we would just become a wolf stronghold.
Until wolves and cougar are managed properly ,we will continue to see declines in ungulate herds.
Post by: Special T on June 02, 2022, 08:30:25 AM
Thanks for the link comment added more tags!
Here is what we are up against the lack of knowledge in this persons statement is mind boggling!
"Why don't you reduce human hunting of elk until the population bounces back? Killing off a part of the ecosystem doesn't make sense. Cougars can never do as much damage as advanced hunters who use technology. Please compare how many humans kill off elk vs cougars in the area".
It's pretty obvious that antlerless hunts should be put on hold. I don't think any hunters want to destroy an ecosystem.
At the same time ungulate and predators need management to equal the playing field in order to keep a equal balance between ungulate and predator and humans.
I'm no expert on the Blues elk herd.
Wolves are not being managed in Washington. I'm a firm believer that these cougar are trying to adapt to a new ecosystem. Cougar was top predator ,not any more.
A pecking order so to speak.
What happens when you kill A lot of coyote in area?
The next year they have bigger litters,and even more coyote appear.
This is just a thought......
Cougar are adapteing by breeding more,bigger litters.
Also if a cougar kills an Elk,eats,covers the kill.
Then other predators find that and eat it.
Will cause that cougar to kill another Elk.
Wolves and coyote will eat anything dead or alive.
The ecosystem is changing......
99% of hunters have some conservationists in them.
At the same time,we also don't want to lose hunting as recreation and food for the freezer.
There is supposed to be a predator/prey study coming out.
But I assume it will protect wolves at all cost. And will really do nothing to add insight to some of what I mentioned above.
The sad reality is....
More than likely if Elk numbers continue to drop in coming years. WDFW big plan will be to turn elk hunting there into permit draw hunting only.
Just some things to think about our current ecosystem
Wanted to add this....
You could kill every cougar in the state,and we would just become a wolf stronghold.
Until wolves and cougar are managed properly ,we will continue to see declines in ungulate herds.
ID has a great long term predator prey study that addresses many of the things you talk about. The biggest take away is that 1 cats do more of the killing. this is because sight predators like wolves push them into ambush areas, and then wolves and bears steal more of the kills. In this state each species are managed independent of each other. This is how they hide the obvious cause and effect.
Post by: buckfvr on June 02, 2022, 09:43:21 AM
Thanks for the link comment added more tags!
Here is what we are up against the lack of knowledge in this persons statement is mind boggling!
"Why don't you reduce human hunting of elk until the population bounces back? Killing off a part of the ecosystem doesn't make sense. Cougars can never do as much damage as advanced hunters who use technology. Please compare how many humans kill off elk vs cougars in the area".
It's pretty obvious that antlerless hunts should be put on hold. I don't think any hunters want to destroy an ecosystem.
At the same time ungulate and predators need management to equal the playing field in order to keep a equal balance between ungulate and predator and humans.
I'm no expert on the Blues elk herd.
Wolves are not being managed in Washington. I'm a firm believer that these cougar are trying to adapt to a new ecosystem. Cougar was top predator ,not any more.
A pecking order so to speak.
What happens when you kill A lot of coyote in area?
The next year they have bigger litters,and even more coyote appear.
This is just a thought......
Cougar are adapteing by breeding more,bigger litters.
Also if a cougar kills an Elk,eats,covers the kill.
Then other predators find that and eat it.
Will cause that cougar to kill another Elk.
Wolves and coyote will eat anything dead or alive.
The ecosystem is changing......
99% of hunters have some conservationists in them.
At the same time,we also don't want to lose hunting as recreation and food for the freezer.
There is supposed to be a predator/prey study coming out.
But I assume it will protect wolves at all cost. And will really do nothing to add insight to some of what I mentioned above.
The sad reality is....
More than likely if Elk numbers continue to drop in coming years. WDFW big plan will be to turn elk hunting there into permit draw hunting only.
Just some things to think about our current ecosystem
Wanted to add this....
You could kill every cougar in the state,and we would just become a wolf stronghold.
Until wolves and cougar are managed properly ,we will continue to see declines in ungulate herds.
I do not believe cougar are trying to adapt to a "new ecosystem". Within the ecosystem, I believe biotic components, namely predator/prey animals, are trying to adjust to changes brought on by the addition of the wolf.
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
I think bringing back bait/hounds may as well be in outer space as there doesn't seem to be a possibility of a new vote on those measures let alone enough support to change the outcome in a state with an ever growing population that is either indifferent to or against hunting.
Even if quotas and seasons were drastically changed, WITH OUT hounds, not much will change. Just because there could be more opportunity doesn't mean change is imminent. Last year or 2 was covid, this next season the price of fuel will probably have a greater effect than covid.
Bears, wolves, and cougars are all the problem, and they simply are not managed properly by wdfw because of their political nature.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 02, 2022, 12:23:30 PM
Honest question, if they took away limits completely on cougar, how many more cats would be killed? What is the percentage of hunters that have even seen one cat in the past 5 years, 10 years?? I’ve spent tons of hours glassing in the blues, sitting for hours watching hill sides, never saw a cat over there. I know we have a big cat problem, but allowing one more cate to be killed will save the elk and deer? Hell, I’d like to see one cat per 100 hunters get killed. I’ll comment, but it’s not even a band aid on a open wound that’s pumping blood. If The WDFW really want to help, they’d push for changing hounds and baiting laws.Won't make a huge difference, but I do know a few retired guys that kill as many per year as they're allowed. Calling, tracking... etc... They spend significant time at it and get tags in as many states as they can get to. Won't matter much, but every cat dead = 20-40 deer/elk calves that get to live....
Post by: mcrawfordaf on June 02, 2022, 12:41:09 PM
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
Knowlton,1972: Noted the death of alpha pairs in packs stimulates breeding among formerly behaviorally sterile pack members, promotes immigration of transient coyotes, and that litter size can be affected by population density; reporting average litter sizes of 4.3 at high coyote densities and 6.9 at low coyote densities(I)
Connolly and Longhurst, 1975/ Connolly, 1978: Noted that in most situations, killing coyotes even at rates of up to 70% of their population merely stimulates reproduction and aggravates the problem.(II)
Bekoff, 1977: Noted that in more coyote females breed when food is abundant and that during years when rodent populations are high, as many as 75% of yearling females may breed.(III)
New York State DEC, 1991: Noted females will not breed if food is in short supply or their numbers are too high for the available food and space, liter sizes will be smaller with less abundant food sources, random hunting and trapping and year-round hunting will not reduce coyote populations, and if a breeding female is removed, a previous non-breeder may take her place.(VI)
Connolly, 1995: Noted that upon review of the Connolly and Longhurst model of 1975, those biological concepts seemed just as valid in 1995 and that new studies have tended to reaffirm those coyote population mechanics rather than prove them wrong.(V)
Fox and Papouchis, 2005: Noted the failure of extreme, indiscriminate killing of coyotes due to their adaptability within their diet, as well as reproductive and immigration response, and that resources would be better spent on long-term, humane coexistence methods.(VI)
Schadler, 2010: Noted that pack disruption stimulates breeding among previously behaviorally sterile pack members and that coyote fertility varies based on food availability; improved nutrition releases hormonal signals that result in more egg production in females, causing an increase of population upon the next mating cycle following a temporary decrease in population.(VII)
Minnie, Gaylard, and Kerley, 2015: Noted compensatory reproduction and immigration response in adaptive and indiscriminately killed predators such as the jackal and the coyote.(VIII)
Crabtree, 2015: Explained the scientific theory of compensatory reproductive response; further solidifying the growing acceptance of the predator reproductive response theory among scientists.(IX)
Kierepka, Kilgo and Rhodes, 2017: Noted that coyotes recover from intensive trapping via reproduction and immigration, which likely make preventing compensation difficult.(X)
Post by: hunter399 on June 02, 2022, 02:55:07 PM
I do agree with ya.Thanks for the link comment added more tags!
Here is what we are up against the lack of knowledge in this persons statement is mind boggling!
"Why don't you reduce human hunting of elk until the population bounces back? Killing off a part of the ecosystem doesn't make sense. Cougars can never do as much damage as advanced hunters who use technology. Please compare how many humans kill off elk vs cougars in the area".
It's pretty obvious that antlerless hunts should be put on hold. I don't think any hunters want to destroy an ecosystem.
At the same time ungulate and predators need management to equal the playing field in order to keep a equal balance between ungulate and predator and humans.
I'm no expert on the Blues elk herd.
Wolves are not being managed in Washington. I'm a firm believer that these cougar are trying to adapt to a new ecosystem. Cougar was top predator ,not any more.
A pecking order so to speak.
What happens when you kill A lot of coyote in area?
The next year they have bigger litters,and even more coyote appear.
This is just a thought......
Cougar are adapteing by breeding more,bigger litters.
Also if a cougar kills an Elk,eats,covers the kill.
Then other predators find that and eat it.
Will cause that cougar to kill another Elk.
Wolves and coyote will eat anything dead or alive.
The ecosystem is changing......
99% of hunters have some conservationists in them.
At the same time,we also don't want to lose hunting as recreation and food for the freezer.
There is supposed to be a predator/prey study coming out.
But I assume it will protect wolves at all cost. And will really do nothing to add insight to some of what I mentioned above.
The sad reality is....
More than likely if Elk numbers continue to drop in coming years. WDFW big plan will be to turn elk hunting there into permit draw hunting only.
Just some things to think about our current ecosystem
Wanted to add this....
You could kill every cougar in the state,and we would just become a wolf stronghold.
Until wolves and cougar are managed properly ,we will continue to see declines in ungulate herds.
I do not believe cougar are trying to adapt to a "new ecosystem". Within the ecosystem, I believe biotic components, namely predator/prey animals, are trying to adjust to changes brought on by the addition of the wolf.
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
I think bringing back bait/hounds may as well be in outer space as there doesn't seem to be a possibility of a new vote on those measures let alone enough support to change the outcome in a state with an ever growing population that is either indifferent to or against hunting.
Even if quotas and seasons were drastically changed, WITH OUT hounds, not much will change. Just because there could be more opportunity doesn't mean change is imminent. Last year or 2 was covid, this next season the price of fuel will probably have a greater effect than covid.
Bears, wolves, and cougars are all the problem, and they simply are not managed properly by wdfw because of their political nature.
New ecosystem is probably not the right wording.
Current ecosystem adjusting to our new predator.
Wolves and cougar are in direct competition for food.
Before they where not.
You have to agree with that.
Cougar having bigger litter is just theory, No facts or research for that. Maybe not even bigger litter,maybe better survival rate or something . Wolves coming back and knocking them down the food chain or causing them to make more kills,might raise the survival rates for kittens.
:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
Just a theory.
I also agree with ya.
Managed properly means
Trapping for wolves
Hounds for cats.
Your right again!!!
We won't get management like hounds for cats.
For sure won't see any wolf management.
But I do think giving hunters more opportunity is better than nothing.
WDFW hands are tied with hounds or wolf management.
At least they are trying to give hunters more opportunity.
Post by: idaho guy on June 03, 2022, 07:53:51 AM
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
Knowlton,1972: Noted the death of alpha pairs in packs stimulates breeding among formerly behaviorally sterile pack members, promotes immigration of transient coyotes, and that litter size can be affected by population density; reporting average litter sizes of 4.3 at high coyote densities and 6.9 at low coyote densities(I)
Connolly and Longhurst, 1975/ Connolly, 1978: Noted that in most situations, killing coyotes even at rates of up to 70% of their population merely stimulates reproduction and aggravates the problem.(II)
Bekoff, 1977: Noted that in more coyote females breed when food is abundant and that during years when rodent populations are high, as many as 75% of yearling females may breed.(III)
New York State DEC, 1991: Noted females will not breed if food is in short supply or their numbers are too high for the available food and space, liter sizes will be smaller with less abundant food sources, random hunting and trapping and year-round hunting will not reduce coyote populations, and if a breeding female is removed, a previous non-breeder may take her place.(VI)
Connolly, 1995: Noted that upon review of the Connolly and Longhurst model of 1975, those biological concepts seemed just as valid in 1995 and that new studies have tended to reaffirm those coyote population mechanics rather than prove them wrong.(V)
Fox and Papouchis, 2005: Noted the failure of extreme, indiscriminate killing of coyotes due to their adaptability within their diet, as well as reproductive and immigration response, and that resources would be better spent on long-term, humane coexistence methods.(VI)
Schadler, 2010: Noted that pack disruption stimulates breeding among previously behaviorally sterile pack members and that coyote fertility varies based on food availability; improved nutrition releases hormonal signals that result in more egg production in females, causing an increase of population upon the next mating cycle following a temporary decrease in population.(VII)
Minnie, Gaylard, and Kerley, 2015: Noted compensatory reproduction and immigration response in adaptive and indiscriminately killed predators such as the jackal and the coyote.(VIII)
Crabtree, 2015: Explained the scientific theory of compensatory reproductive response; further solidifying the growing acceptance of the predator reproductive response theory among scientists.(IX)
Kierepka, Kilgo and Rhodes, 2017: Noted that coyotes recover from intensive trapping via reproduction and immigration, which likely make preventing compensation difficult.(X)
Uggh :bash: no offense to you but I get sick every time I read one of these “science “ studies. It all started with Farley mowat who fell in love with wolves in the 70s. Birth rates vary based on available prey. Killing coyotes, wolves and lions does NOT lead to a greater abundance of coyotes, wolves and lions that is such a circular ridiculous argument it would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous. These studies are all done from the perspective of don’t hunt or trap predators in any way or form. I know it’s written by a biologist most of the time but that’s where this flawed logic started in the university system. You are living with the results of these studies right now in Washington. Is it working for you? This is exactly what these studies were designed to create . No or ineffective management of predators. The point of those “studies “ are you shouldn’t hunt or trap predators because it will just create more. Really? You are living the affects of these “studies “ right now. Does it work for your ungulates or hunting? These folks have college degrees but ask yourselves where did the pro predator anti hunting and anti gun philosophy start? This is not directed at you at all it’s just the stupidity of these studies in my mind. There is a hidden agenda and it’s not good for the future of hunting. I have personally witnessed a major reduction in coyotes through trapping certain ranches. I have seen lion population plummet from hound hunting (which I am not in favor of)but I have seen it in my hound hunting spots. Think about what they are actually saying-if we hunt or trap predators we will have MORE predators. What does everyone think the real goal is here?
Post by: hunter399 on June 03, 2022, 08:27:27 AM
The main take away is ,too many cats.
WDFW hands are tied on most management tools.
The only tool left in the tool box is.....
Hunter opportunity.
Which is fine by me.
Post by: buckfvr on June 03, 2022, 09:25:02 AM
The very effective and professional hounds men wdfw and tri-county are using now for conflict removal could and should be used in the blue mountains to eliminate "X" number of cats in order to get a better grip on the problem. Second tags and no quotas and open season on cats could also make a contribution, but for immediate results, the pros need to get in there and make a difference. No amount of voting is going to resurrect public hound hunting but wdfw can certainly use them in the current manner being used in other areas without legal fallout.
Post by: callturner on June 03, 2022, 10:32:02 AM
Post by: mcrawfordaf on June 03, 2022, 10:33:32 AM
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
Knowlton,1972: Noted the death of alpha pairs in packs stimulates breeding among formerly behaviorally sterile pack members, promotes immigration of transient coyotes, and that litter size can be affected by population density; reporting average litter sizes of 4.3 at high coyote densities and 6.9 at low coyote densities(I)
Connolly and Longhurst, 1975/ Connolly, 1978: Noted that in most situations, killing coyotes even at rates of up to 70% of their population merely stimulates reproduction and aggravates the problem.(II)
Bekoff, 1977: Noted that in more coyote females breed when food is abundant and that during years when rodent populations are high, as many as 75% of yearling females may breed.(III)
New York State DEC, 1991: Noted females will not breed if food is in short supply or their numbers are too high for the available food and space, liter sizes will be smaller with less abundant food sources, random hunting and trapping and year-round hunting will not reduce coyote populations, and if a breeding female is removed, a previous non-breeder may take her place.(VI)
Connolly, 1995: Noted that upon review of the Connolly and Longhurst model of 1975, those biological concepts seemed just as valid in 1995 and that new studies have tended to reaffirm those coyote population mechanics rather than prove them wrong.(V)
Fox and Papouchis, 2005: Noted the failure of extreme, indiscriminate killing of coyotes due to their adaptability within their diet, as well as reproductive and immigration response, and that resources would be better spent on long-term, humane coexistence methods.(VI)
Schadler, 2010: Noted that pack disruption stimulates breeding among previously behaviorally sterile pack members and that coyote fertility varies based on food availability; improved nutrition releases hormonal signals that result in more egg production in females, causing an increase of population upon the next mating cycle following a temporary decrease in population.(VII)
Minnie, Gaylard, and Kerley, 2015: Noted compensatory reproduction and immigration response in adaptive and indiscriminately killed predators such as the jackal and the coyote.(VIII)
Crabtree, 2015: Explained the scientific theory of compensatory reproductive response; further solidifying the growing acceptance of the predator reproductive response theory among scientists.(IX)
Kierepka, Kilgo and Rhodes, 2017: Noted that coyotes recover from intensive trapping via reproduction and immigration, which likely make preventing compensation difficult.(X)
Uggh :bash: no offense to you but I get sick every time I read one of these “science “ studies. It all started with Farley mowat who fell in love with wolves in the 70s. Birth rates vary based on available prey. Killing coyotes, wolves and lions does NOT lead to a greater abundance of coyotes, wolves and lions that is such a circular ridiculous argument it would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous. These studies are all done from the perspective of don’t hunt or trap predators in any way or form. I know it’s written by a biologist most of the time but that’s where this flawed logic started in the university system. You are living with the results of these studies right now in Washington. Is it working for you? This is exactly what these studies were designed to create . No or ineffective management of predators. The point of those “studies “ are you shouldn’t hunt or trap predators because it will just create more. Really? You are living the affects of these “studies “ right now. Does it work for your ungulates or hunting? These folks have college degrees but ask yourselves where did the pro predator anti hunting and anti gun philosophy start? This is not directed at you at all it’s just the stupidity of these studies in my mind. There is a hidden agenda and it’s not good for the future of hunting. I have personally witnessed a major reduction in coyotes through trapping certain ranches. I have seen lion population plummet from hound hunting (which I am not in favor of)but I have seen it in my hound hunting spots. Think about what they are actually saying-if we hunt or trap predators we will have MORE predators. What does everyone think the real goal is here?
I'm very much pro-predator hunting. The ending of derby hunts for coyotes was incredibly disappointing for me, as my father and I were beginning to prepare for entering some together. I just wanted to provide some of the "studies" I've come across while debating antis. I did pest control for 4 years in PA and I know for a fact removing and killing predators helps reduce populations. These are mammals, I don't believe they have any way of recognizing or communicating that their pack size has increased or decreased in such a way that they can alter reproduction. Ants can do this, bees as well but I just don't see how mammals could.
Post by: buckfvr on June 03, 2022, 10:35:51 AM
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
Knowlton,1972: Noted the death of alpha pairs in packs stimulates breeding among formerly behaviorally sterile pack members, promotes immigration of transient coyotes, and that litter size can be affected by population density; reporting average litter sizes of 4.3 at high coyote densities and 6.9 at low coyote densities(I)
Connolly and Longhurst, 1975/ Connolly, 1978: Noted that in most situations, killing coyotes even at rates of up to 70% of their population merely stimulates reproduction and aggravates the problem.(II)
Bekoff, 1977: Noted that in more coyote females breed when food is abundant and that during years when rodent populations are high, as many as 75% of yearling females may breed.(III)
New York State DEC, 1991: Noted females will not breed if food is in short supply or their numbers are too high for the available food and space, liter sizes will be smaller with less abundant food sources, random hunting and trapping and year-round hunting will not reduce coyote populations, and if a breeding female is removed, a previous non-breeder may take her place.(VI)
Connolly, 1995: Noted that upon review of the Connolly and Longhurst model of 1975, those biological concepts seemed just as valid in 1995 and that new studies have tended to reaffirm those coyote population mechanics rather than prove them wrong.(V)
Fox and Papouchis, 2005: Noted the failure of extreme, indiscriminate killing of coyotes due to their adaptability within their diet, as well as reproductive and immigration response, and that resources would be better spent on long-term, humane coexistence methods.(VI)
Schadler, 2010: Noted that pack disruption stimulates breeding among previously behaviorally sterile pack members and that coyote fertility varies based on food availability; improved nutrition releases hormonal signals that result in more egg production in females, causing an increase of population upon the next mating cycle following a temporary decrease in population.(VII)
Minnie, Gaylard, and Kerley, 2015: Noted compensatory reproduction and immigration response in adaptive and indiscriminately killed predators such as the jackal and the coyote.(VIII)
Crabtree, 2015: Explained the scientific theory of compensatory reproductive response; further solidifying the growing acceptance of the predator reproductive response theory among scientists.(IX)
Kierepka, Kilgo and Rhodes, 2017: Noted that coyotes recover from intensive trapping via reproduction and immigration, which likely make preventing compensation difficult.(X)
Uggh :bash: no offense to you but I get sick every time I read one of these “science “ studies. It all started with Farley mowat who fell in love with wolves in the 70s. Birth rates vary based on available prey. Killing coyotes, wolves and lions does NOT lead to a greater abundance of coyotes, wolves and lions that is such a circular ridiculous argument it would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous. These studies are all done from the perspective of don’t hunt or trap predators in any way or form. I know it’s written by a biologist most of the time but that’s where this flawed logic started in the university system. You are living with the results of these studies right now in Washington. Is it working for you? This is exactly what these studies were designed to create . No or ineffective management of predators. The point of those “studies “ are you shouldn’t hunt or trap predators because it will just create more. Really? You are living the affects of these “studies “ right now. Does it work for your ungulates or hunting? These folks have college degrees but ask yourselves where did the pro predator anti hunting and anti gun philosophy start? This is not directed at you at all it’s just the stupidity of these studies in my mind. There is a hidden agenda and it’s not good for the future of hunting. I have personally witnessed a major reduction in coyotes through trapping certain ranches. I have seen lion population plummet from hound hunting (which I am not in favor of)but I have seen it in my hound hunting spots. Think about what they are actually saying-if we hunt or trap predators we will have MORE predators. What does everyone think the real goal is here?
Ya, talk about agenda driven studies......Ever notice who ever pays for a study always winds up with it supporting their ideals/agendas ?
Post by: buckfvr on June 03, 2022, 10:40:56 AM
Post by: hunter399 on June 03, 2022, 11:16:13 AM
The sharpest tool in the box is the one they are using now for removal. The majority of the cats "removed", are NOT in areas hunters can hunt freely. They are mostly on or near private property.That tool isn't in the box for elk management.
The very effective and professional hounds men wdfw and tri-county are using now for conflict removal could and should be used in the blue mountains to eliminate "X" number of cats in order to get a better grip on the problem. Second tags and no quotas and open season on cats could also make a contribution, but for immediate results, the pros need to get in there and make a difference. No amount of voting is going to resurrect public hound hunting but wdfw can certainly use them in the current manner being used in other areas without legal fallout.
It's there for safety and cats that attack livestock.
You can't kill cats cause they are hunting deer and elk ,there primary food source.
Post by: buckfvr on June 03, 2022, 11:37:17 AM
Post by: Okanagan on June 03, 2022, 12:12:22 PM
Theories and studies are useful, especially if they lead to solutions, but a step out of the ivory tower into a springtime rancher’s boots would add some wisdom to facts and a better practical understanding of the problem.
Post by: hunter399 on June 03, 2022, 01:04:52 PM
That tool is certainly in the box for cat management and thats what it is once they decide to change cat harvest guidelines, unless you have talked to wdfw about it and you are quoting wdfw.No I'm not quoting WDFW.
But here is a quote from WDFW...
Currently there are no management needs warranting this permit program. The department will update this site a necessary.
Here is a link .....read for yourself.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/cougar
At this time it's only safety removal.
Post by: idaho guy on June 03, 2022, 01:23:48 PM
Please share your source of study information about coyotes, and cougar adapting to breed "more, bigger litters".
Knowlton,1972: Noted the death of alpha pairs in packs stimulates breeding among formerly behaviorally sterile pack members, promotes immigration of transient coyotes, and that litter size can be affected by population density; reporting average litter sizes of 4.3 at high coyote densities and 6.9 at low coyote densities(I)
Connolly and Longhurst, 1975/ Connolly, 1978: Noted that in most situations, killing coyotes even at rates of up to 70% of their population merely stimulates reproduction and aggravates the problem.(II)
Bekoff, 1977: Noted that in more coyote females breed when food is abundant and that during years when rodent populations are high, as many as 75% of yearling females may breed.(III)
New York State DEC, 1991: Noted females will not breed if food is in short supply or their numbers are too high for the available food and space, liter sizes will be smaller with less abundant food sources, random hunting and trapping and year-round hunting will not reduce coyote populations, and if a breeding female is removed, a previous non-breeder may take her place.(VI)
Connolly, 1995: Noted that upon review of the Connolly and Longhurst model of 1975, those biological concepts seemed just as valid in 1995 and that new studies have tended to reaffirm those coyote population mechanics rather than prove them wrong.(V)
Fox and Papouchis, 2005: Noted the failure of extreme, indiscriminate killing of coyotes due to their adaptability within their diet, as well as reproductive and immigration response, and that resources would be better spent on long-term, humane coexistence methods.(VI)
Schadler, 2010: Noted that pack disruption stimulates breeding among previously behaviorally sterile pack members and that coyote fertility varies based on food availability; improved nutrition releases hormonal signals that result in more egg production in females, causing an increase of population upon the next mating cycle following a temporary decrease in population.(VII)
Minnie, Gaylard, and Kerley, 2015: Noted compensatory reproduction and immigration response in adaptive and indiscriminately killed predators such as the jackal and the coyote.(VIII)
Crabtree, 2015: Explained the scientific theory of compensatory reproductive response; further solidifying the growing acceptance of the predator reproductive response theory among scientists.(IX)
Kierepka, Kilgo and Rhodes, 2017: Noted that coyotes recover from intensive trapping via reproduction and immigration, which likely make preventing compensation difficult.(X)
Uggh :bash: no offense to you but I get sick every time I read one of these “science “ studies. It all started with Farley mowat who fell in love with wolves in the 70s. Birth rates vary based on available prey. Killing coyotes, wolves and lions does NOT lead to a greater abundance of coyotes, wolves and lions that is such a circular ridiculous argument it would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous. These studies are all done from the perspective of don’t hunt or trap predators in any way or form. I know it’s written by a biologist most of the time but that’s where this flawed logic started in the university system. You are living with the results of these studies right now in Washington. Is it working for you? This is exactly what these studies were designed to create . No or ineffective management of predators. The point of those “studies “ are you shouldn’t hunt or trap predators because it will just create more. Really? You are living the affects of these “studies “ right now. Does it work for your ungulates or hunting? These folks have college degrees but ask yourselves where did the pro predator anti hunting and anti gun philosophy start? This is not directed at you at all it’s just the stupidity of these studies in my mind. There is a hidden agenda and it’s not good for the future of hunting. I have personally witnessed a major reduction in coyotes through trapping certain ranches. I have seen lion population plummet from hound hunting (which I am not in favor of)but I have seen it in my hound hunting spots. Think about what they are actually saying-if we hunt or trap predators we will have MORE predators. What does everyone think the real goal is here?
I'm very much pro-predator hunting. The ending of derby hunts for coyotes was incredibly disappointing for me, as my father and I were beginning to prepare for entering some together. I just wanted to provide some of the "studies" I've come across while debating antis. I did pest control for 4 years in PA and I know for a fact removing and killing predators helps reduce populations. These are mammals, I don't believe they have any way of recognizing or communicating that their pack size has increased or decreased in such a way that they can alter reproduction. Ants can do this, bees as well but I just don't see how mammals could.
I assumed you were just posting study to respond to the other one asking for it . Like I said my post was not directed at you just ranting on the biased study concerning predators. They are basically saying removing predators creates more and it’s such bull crap I had too comment ha ha. It’s all good I figured we agreed
Post by: buckfvr on June 03, 2022, 01:31:13 PM
Post by: hunter399 on June 03, 2022, 02:16:56 PM
wdfw policy and practice subject to change at any second. :twocents:
Maybe?...... :dunno:
The little fiasco with the spring hound hunting of bears through a permits a few years ago was bad publicity.
When these animal groups find out it gets smeared all over the news and such.
Since then pretty sure WDFW has kinda turned direction.
But hey that's just my opinion,could change tomorrow.
I really don't know. :dunno:
But some things I do know.
Is you can thank the timber company's for that.
Instead of allowing access,and promoting hunter oppertunitty .Spring hound bear hunts got the chopping
block. And now spring bear hunting for us hunters hit the chopping block.
BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU ADVOCATE FOR.
@buckfvr
Opening a hound permit season in the Blues might achieve short term goals quickly,but may hurt or erase hunter oppertunitty to hunt cougar for everybody.
Something to think on.
Post by: elkh8me on August 07, 2022, 05:54:41 PM
Post by: Special T on August 07, 2022, 07:40:37 PM
Everyone needs to vote! Comments ain’t gonna get it done folks. After listening to the meeting for spring bear meeting, minds have already been made up.
FACT! we need a republican majority in the State Senate to make a difference. I know the primaries are over.... so many of us need to donate some cheddar to folks that are Republicans running in the senate. Obi Won Kenobi.... Republicans are our only hope!