Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 08:08:06 AM
Then there is the ethics behind it. If I am just blasting away, am I taking from other hunters. There might be people out there trying to make money at it. If I kill ten of them today and just feed the crows, is that going to piss some guy off.
From a biological standpoint, are we going to be overrun by mice and rabbits now
No flaming please, this is a legit question.
You’ll note an acute lack of coyote pics from me this year. ;)
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 08:16:56 AM
Shoot them and leave lay for the maggots and don't give it a second thought.
Save the baby makers!
Post by: NRA4LIFE on November 13, 2022, 08:21:33 AM
Post by: buckfvr on November 13, 2022, 08:24:16 AM
Post by: ucwarden on November 13, 2022, 08:31:31 AM
RCW 77.15.170
Waste of fish and wildlife—Penalty.
(1) A person is guilty of waste of fish and wildlife if the person:
(a) Takes or possesses wildlife classified as food fish, game fish, shellfish, or game birds having a value of two hundred fifty dollars or more, or wildlife classified as big game; and
(b) Recklessly allows such fish, shellfish, or wildlife to be wasted.
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 08:37:23 AM
Thank you for that info UC
Post by: Special T on November 13, 2022, 08:37:55 AM
As a small game hunter I think it's fine to shoot them and do nothing with them. If I had a chunk of land for bird hunting I would be agressively thinning all predators including skunks.
Coyotes do predate on fawns but compared to bears and bobcats who knows how much. At least you can eat the bears and bobcats.
I don't buy the line of being overridden by mice with out them. That said I enjoy shooting coyotes, and I don't think I'm dedicated enough take a dent in the population big enough to make a huge difference. If I chose not to shoot the occasional coyote I wouldn't wrap that decision in ethics. I'd just explain why and call it close.
Post by: Fidelk on November 13, 2022, 08:38:05 AM
Back in the day we’d hunt coyotes just to shoot them. Wouldn’t even go pick them up. Just shoot em and move on. If it was an exceptional specimen or we were in the mood, maybe go out and at least give it a kick, or take a pic. Rarely did we bring it home. Is this legal? I’m thinking waste of game meat, hide or something along those lines. I thought maybe I should ask before I say openly on the internet …..
Then there is the ethics behind it. If I am just blasting away, am I taking from other hunters. There might be people out there trying to make money at it. If I kill ten of them today and just feed the crows, is that going to piss some guy off.
From a biological standpoint, are we going to be overrun by mice and rabbits now
No flaming please, this is a legit question.
You’ll note an acute lack of coyote pics from me this year. ;)
Not waste of meat, since it isn't defined as a "big game" animal. Cougar meat is clearly exempted as are heart/liver of any animal.
"""Game harvest waste requirements
As stated in Washington's Big Game Hunting Seasons and Regulations pamphlet, hunters may not allow game animals or game birds they have taken to recklessly be wasted.
The rules around waste are outlined in RCW 77.08.010, which states that "To waste" or "to be wasted" means to allow any edible portion of any game bird, food fish, game fish, shellfish, or big game animal other than cougar to be rendered unfit for human consumption, or to fail to retrieve edible portions of such a game bird, food fish, game fish, shellfish, or big game animal other than cougar from the field.
Edible portions of game birds must include, at a minimum, the breast meat of those birds. Entrails, including the heart and liver, of any wildlife species are not considered edible."""
Ethics.......depends on your personal beliefs, on one hand shooting an animal that you don't intend to eat or use the pelt could be considered wasteful.......on the other hand, by shooting them you might be saving some fawns and calves.
I'd shoot them and would take the pelt (if it was a good one) if I wasn't hunting for deer/elk. But the only time I've seen them with a rifle in my hand was when hunting for elk and didn't want to spook the elk.
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 08:44:37 AM
This is a banner yote year for those of you wanting to hunt. The only place I am not seeing many are where wolves are active.
Post by: Special T on November 13, 2022, 08:48:19 AM
This would be a good year to have a derby. Not sure if WDFW killed those or what happened there.
This is a banner yote year for those of you wanting to hunt. The only place I am not seeing many are where wolves are active.
All hunting derbies were canceled by vote of the commission. We can't even have the online fun Derby on here anymore. I loved seeing everyone's pics and stories.
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 08:51:45 AM
:mor:
Post by: Encore 280 on November 13, 2022, 09:12:38 AM
Post by: builtfordtough on November 13, 2022, 10:07:09 AM
Post by: jrebel on November 13, 2022, 10:19:22 AM
I find it to be more of an ethical problem if you don't shoot them. If you value a coyote over the health of our pigmy rabbit population you are a sick and twisted person (insert sarcasm emoji here).....just want our environmental nuts to know I care about their pigmy rabbits more than I do a predator. Much like I care about our deer and elk population more than a other predators (bears, cougars, wolves, yotes).....and I digress.
Post by: Naches Sportsman on November 13, 2022, 10:27:45 AM
For Idaho, It might be my trapping instincts kicking in and saving fur in my area, but I haven’t blasted a single one since I started catching them in footholds and snares.
Post by: jrebel on November 13, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
"feel free to shoot coyotes here" signs. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 10:36:42 AM
Post by: bearpaw on November 13, 2022, 11:00:53 AM
Another ethical problem that presents every time I travel from Wenatchee to my property in the NE corner..... I also see coyotes in farm fields / grass fields ect. that are privately owned. I drive right by them and always think to myself.....would the owner care if you were whacking these vermin. Most ranchers and farmers I know would love to have them shot....but w/out permission, I drive right by thinking it was a wasted opportunity. :bash: :bash: Keeping in mind these are wide open fields with no houses, barns, etc. in sight and clearly shooting around any homes is a strong no go. Wonder if the WDFW would promote talking to land owners and posting
"feel free to shoot coyotes here" signs. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Good post jrebel, here are a few thoughts I would like to offer everyone:
- Don't assume all farmers and ranchers hate coyotes, not all do. In my experience ranchers have a a more prevalent disliking due to past experiences of predators impacting their livestock. Some farmers like coyotes because they eat a lot of mice and gophers which damage their crops.
- Unless you have permission it is not legal to hunt on private land, the best option is to get permission in advance so when you see coyotes in some particular fields you can legally shoot them
- Recently a young hunter received a ticket for shooting a cougar decoy that a WDFW warden had set up along a busy unpaved county road on private land right next to a popular public land hunting area near Colville, the hunter reportedly shot a few minutes after shooting hours and did not have permission, he lives very close to where he shot and may have thought it was ok to shoot a cougar there, especially since there have been so many cougar problems in Stevens County, but he got written up and WDFW reportedly confiscated his rifle and truck
- So even if you think something is ok, be sure what you do is legal, and always get permission if it's private land, so you don't end up losing your rifle and your truck
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 11:10:19 AM
WDFW is using Cougar and Wolf decoys now?
That's a game changer, a big fat middle finger to the rural residents in the hardest predator impacted area of the state.
Why didn't the department warn of this sting like WSP does for red light cameras, school zone sting operations, failure to yeild to police during traffic stops for people who zip by police when they got someone pulled over, warning the public they're doing construction zone operations etc etc etc
Deterrence
WDFW showing up out of the blue with a wolf and cougar decoy in Steven's county without public outreach is merely looking for an example, head hunting.
This will backfire.
Post by: jrebel on November 13, 2022, 11:17:56 AM
What!!
WDFW is using Cougar and Wolf decoys now?
That's a game changer, a big fat middle finger to the rural residents in the hardest predator impacted area of the state.
Why didn't the department warn of this sting like WSP does for red light cameras, school zone sting operations, failure to yeild to police during traffic stops for people who zip by police when they got someone pulled over, warning the public they're doing construction zone operations etc etc etc
Deterrence
WDFW showing up out of the blue with a wolf and cougar decoy in Steven's county without public outreach is merely looking for an example, head hunting.
This will backfire.
Clearly a case of entrapment. :chuckle: :bash:
Post by: bearpaw on November 13, 2022, 11:19:58 AM
What!!
WDFW is using Cougar and Wolf decoys now?
That's a game changer, a big fat finger to the rural residents in the hardest predator impacted area of the state.
Why did the department warn of this sting like WSP does for red light cameras, school zone sting operations, failure to yeild to police during traffic stops for people who zip by police when they got someone pulled over, warning the public they're doing construction zone operations etc etc etc
Deterrence
WDFW showing up out of tbe blue with a wolf and cougar decoy in Steven's county without public outreach is merely looking for an example, head hunting.
I can see if I was a warden and wanted to write tickets, a good place to do that would be in Stevens County using predator decoys.
I do think that is going to create even more trust issues in the northeast, many people already view the WDFW as the enemy of the people due to the lack of action on predator impacts in the whole area!
The guy who shot the cougar decoy probably thought he was doing the neighborhood a favor?
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 12:04:13 PM
It's an operation
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 12:10:06 PM
I've always said if the dept rolls out predator decoys then its gloves off, they have no interest in working with the public, no interest in predator tolerance building
All of the positive work that wss done with existing with predators is out the window
This is a new era of regime enforcement, it will backfire. There's going to be more poaching of all animals, not less.
Post by: jrebel on November 13, 2022, 12:21:01 PM
It sends a strong message to the residents of rural predator impacted areas
I've always said if the dept rolls out predator decoys then its gloves off, they have no interest in working with the public, no interest in predator tolerance building
All of the positive work that wss done with existing with predators is out the window
This is a new era of regime enforcement, it will backfire. There's going to be more poaching of all animals, not less.
Though I 100% agree with the premise of your stance....it is still bad practice to shoot said predator on private land w/o permission. It sounds like the kid was ticketed for shooting after hours and for shooting on land he didn't have permission to be on.
If a hunter is willing to shoot predators on land w/o permission, I would draw a conclusion they would also shood deer / elk on land w/o permission. I am far less concerned about the "few minutes past hunting hours" as I find this is often subjective to a persons watch setting. I know my wife's clock in her toyota speeds up as time goes on.
With all that being said....I don't like WDFW using predators as a way to entrap hunters. my guess is...had that been a dummy deer, the kid would have drove right by. Still doesn't excuse the private property issue.
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 12:29:40 PM
I'm not sure we have enough details to go into trespass issues
I also do not believe "if they shoot a wolf or a couger, they'd also shoot a deer"
There's PLENTY of people who shoot turkey on private property, deer out of season or at night to keep any decoy operations plenty busy....
But instead of using a turkey on private property where birds are frequently poached, or deer after shooting hours, they choose to target predators
That is my beef
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 12:32:04 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 12:35:35 PM
Never got them
The dept ain't gonna get world class wolf poachers or poisoners running deeks
They need to call in UC Warden for that type of activity, even then where there's no end consumer market to run down, very tough
Post by: jrebel on November 13, 2022, 12:38:43 PM
I understand it was a neighbors property, did the kid get criminal trespass?
I'm not sure we have enough details to go into trespass issues
I also do not believe "if they shoot a wolf or a couger, they'd also shoot a deer"
There's PLENTY of people who shoot turkey on private property, deer out of season or at night to keep any decoy operations plenty busy....
But instead of using a turkey on private property where birds are frequently poached, or deer after shooting hours, they choose to target predators
That is my beef
Totally understand....and I was not correlating because he shot a predator that he would also have shot a deer everything else being equal. I am saying if he would have shot a predatory on private....I think it could be that he assumed he would also shoot a deer w/o respect to private (assuming all else was legal...deer season, shooting hours, etc.). Just a lack of overall respect for private property.
And yes....we don't know the details of the trespass / private property issue, but I'm assuming the land owner allowed them to set this sting up because they don't like hunters. I have a neighbor in the NE corner that would love nothing more than to torch every hunter in the area.....he is a first class anti hunting socialist pig....a real piece of work that uses his money to push others around. Karma.....aka a bear, cougar or wolf....will bight this guy in the butt one of these days. I'm personally hoping it's not the butt...but rather the neck. :tup:
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 12:46:05 PM
Put a big fat juicy phesant deek on the side of a paved road somewhere down by pomeroy in the middle of nowhere
Put a big strutting tom on private property where the landowner is constantly getting poached on
A deer anywhere last few days of the season after legal light
A big mule buck in a late season whitetail only unit
They can keep decoy operations plenty busy if they wanted too, but they're doing this
Post by: Fidelk on November 13, 2022, 12:49:03 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 01:00:36 PM
Bottom line: if you are going to do what the kid did......shoot your worst rifle and walk to where you shoot. That way, they can only take a rusty old gun and a pair of boots. The possibility of losing a vehicle would prevent me from stretching the rules.
Or just not break the rules :dunno:
I still do not support or advocate shooting a wolf or cougar, not worth it
Post by: slavenoid on November 13, 2022, 01:26:02 PM
Post by: jrebel on November 13, 2022, 01:26:59 PM
The decoy thing is upsetting, but it's definitely not entrapment.
That was a joke. :chuckle: :tup:
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 13, 2022, 01:32:44 PM
I would be curious to pdr what cougar complaints that district has for the last 4 months and what action has been taken to reduce the conflicts or remove the problem cats.
Since they have time to run deek stings using alpha predators in a known alpha predator hot spot.....are they using their down time equally to work problem cats ..or just target hunter's.
I mean you don't poach a cat for the antlers or meat... :dunno:
As for the yotes...we used to sell them for beer money in college
Now it's all about saving wildlife....
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 02:21:10 PM
It's no wonder this guy shot what he thought was a cougar, they've been trying to get WDFW for years to do something about it
They get this :bash:
Post by: GWP on November 13, 2022, 02:26:32 PM
It is always funny to me how people will get a mindset about something before they even will give it a try. Most of the 'non edible' (according to opinions) items I have tried were fine, some were tasty. Sand Shrimp were good, as is smoked Carp.
I would guess it would depend on time of year and what the coyote had been eating.
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 02:30:38 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 02:31:49 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 02:33:07 PM
They give ZERO craps about rural residents
Post by: duckmen1 on November 13, 2022, 04:56:13 PM
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2022, 05:03:50 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 05:03:59 PM
Caller: ya, I got a cougar eating my goats! The neighbor had a cougar eat his kitty Sammy, his daughter is very upset!
WDFW: Ok, thanks for calling and have you checked out our "living with wildlife" page at wdfw.livingwithwildlife.wa?
Caller: umm ahh no? You going to kill this cat or what?
WDFW: "we'll pass it on to the wildlife officers in your area thanks for calling!
Caller: ya ok thanks tell them they can reach m...
WDFW *click*
WDFW: hey ya we been getting a bunch of calls in the Kettle Falls area about mt lions eating goats, chickens, pet cats, pet dogs and being in the vicinity of school kids walking to school
WDFW enforcement: ok great tip! we'll be out there next month with a cougar decoy and nail those backwoods hicks weeeee!!
Post by: Alchase on November 13, 2022, 06:46:53 PM
Here is my contradiction, I won’t even hesitate if I shoot a wild hog, especially a sow.
I go through the his weird self justification, but they do millions upon millions in damage. I have had two charge me already while hunting white tail. They are ugly, they stink worse than just about anything. And Oklahoma wild life officers encourage shoot on sight.
I know it does not make much sense, to not to shoot yotes like I would pigs. Or doing mental gymnastics for o justify one or the other, when both should be taken out. :dunno:
Post by: hunter399 on November 13, 2022, 07:04:54 PM
If it's on the run,you might live,stand there like stupid your eating lead.
Skin or not to skin depends on coat.
That's my coyote hunting plan.
Post by: Jpmiller on November 13, 2022, 07:08:57 PM
I was once told by a bio that the only real way to control their population was super aggressive trapping or poison, and neither of those are an option in WA so I don't really buy the "population control" argument but I do buy that the more threatened and uncomfortable.they feel due to hunting pressure they less bold they'll be hunting their prey. I was also told theyre not very likely to actually go after calves and fawns and I've seen exactly the same.number of dogs chasing ungulates as I have ungulates chasing dogs (one). Keep em looking over their shoulder and not looking for their next meal and it won't hurt the deer/elk and it won't really hurt coyote numbers either from what I understand.
Cats and bears are another story though and while I'm no scientist I too feel like there's quite a few more than there should be and the state doesn't agree with me/us. One of these days I'll get better at hunting them and actually seal the deal on taking out my own, getting closer on bear at least.
Bottom line, kill em. Worst case scenario it just means more pups, best case it's helping our game herds.
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 07:17:54 PM
If you give it a couple years they're back
Post by: Lucky1 on November 13, 2022, 08:35:52 PM
You can control coyotes in an area, but it's constant, and involves bait and lights.That’s what I have experienced.
If you give it a couple years they're back
Like you said, bait, alarms, lights, or thermal, or night vision = success.
Post by: millerwheeler on November 13, 2022, 09:10:16 PM
Post by: Special T on November 13, 2022, 10:24:14 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 13, 2022, 10:32:37 PM
It won't be well received once it gets out
Post by: Special T on November 13, 2022, 10:36:16 PM
I've no idea who's brilliant idea this was :dunno:
It won't be well received once it gets out
I'm not sure wdfw employees will be recieved well after this hits the public airways.
Post by: hunter399 on November 14, 2022, 04:47:55 AM
I've no idea who's brilliant idea this was :dunno:
It won't be well received once it gets out
I'm not sure wdfw employees will be recieved well after this hits the public airways.
Are you guys talking about the new management plan.
You know.....
The co-exist management plan.....NO CONSUMPTION.
Here I'll just paint a picture for ya.
Since the co-exist plan is basically do nothing management.
60 -75% of non enforcement employees will be gone.
That will free up funds for more enforcement.
Since the only way the department will make money is through enforcement.
You will see all kinds of crazy decoys and such.
These predator decoys are probably just a test run of a lot more fun stuff to come.
Better grab the ohh @$!# handle cause this pickup is going to get a ride.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2022, 07:53:48 AM
Post by: Hillbilly Zen on November 14, 2022, 08:35:50 AM
Honestly I have always had a personal issue with killing animals I don’t eat. But though I would kill a yote in a heartbeat if it had a nice coat, I have wanted a couple of yote skins, but I suck at tanning.
Here is my contradiction, I won’t even hesitate if I shoot a wild hog, especially a sow.
I go through the his weird self justification, but they do millions upon millions in damage. I have had two charge me already while hunting white tail. They are ugly, they stink worse than just about anything. And Oklahoma wild life officers encourage shoot on sight.
I know it does not make much sense, to not to shoot yotes like I would pigs. Or doing mental gymnastics for o justify one or the other, when both should be taken out. :dunno:
Doesnt seem like a contradiction to me, or probably anyone else who has lived in hog territory. Coyote threats seem way overrated to me. Ive lost small animals to coyotes, but most human attacks seem to be in urban settings where they live on human food and dont get hazed regularly by dogs. Hogs are dangerous and devastating, capable of destroying acres of crop land in a single night and they reproduce at ridiculous rates. People hunt them aggressively and still cant slow their population growth. I’d still rather see them used as food, but it’s not always practical. I dont like killing anything i’m not eating, but I get the reason with hogs. I’ve called in a lot of coyotes but always decided to let them walk. Anything that good at surviving gets a pass from me. I have a lot of respect for the dirty things.
Post by: kellama2001 on November 14, 2022, 09:44:35 AM
Shoot them, leave them, and hunt over them for more coyotes.
:yeah:
Post by: Gringo31 on November 14, 2022, 10:06:58 AM
I wish they'd only allow some special permits for folks who did the work to help the deer/elk/small game populations. Kinda like the master hunter program. That being said, I do know people who like coyotes on their property. These people have a much different stance than those with livestock.
I've probably killed over 1000 coyotes. You'll never get rid of them but you can reduce the level of education they have. They will be less efficient hunters when you remove the age class. They young ones will move in from neighboring areas and just aren't as good at being a coyote as the old dogs you took out. .02
A bullet is a gift compared to the death they give others we try to protect. Ain't saying it's their fault, just saying they need dramatically reduced.... Blaze away Bone!
Post by: b23 on November 14, 2022, 12:58:26 PM
I've always been in the shoot em and leave camp. When my daughter was little and would go along with me she'd always want to walk out and see what they looked like up close and the bigger the hole/s and the messier they were the cooler she thought it was and the bigger her smile. My wife on the other hand couldn't and wouldn't look at them dead because they looked to much like a dog to her. My daughter is in college now and this is still one of her favorite pics.
Post by: duckmen1 on November 14, 2022, 01:08:23 PM
Post by: Goshawk on November 26, 2022, 03:31:09 PM