Post by: NewHunter24 on January 10, 2023, 02:39:42 PM
Did some research online and people say the M&P can use Hardcast loads and just requires a bit more cleaning. Just looking for an opinion here since when I picked it up last year the guy said it might not be suitable for Hardcast loads.
Post by: Stein on January 10, 2023, 02:53:14 PM
I would test it before my life depended on it just like any defensive ammo. I shoot them in several pistols, both revolver and semi-autos and haven't seen any issues.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=54
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=59
Post by: NewHunter24 on January 10, 2023, 03:08:48 PM
Buffalo Bore says it's ok, I've heard debates with Glock barrels but not S&P. Something about polygonal barrels, check out Buffalo Bore's website as they have a couple of articles about it.
I would test it before my life depended on it just like any defensive ammo. I shoot them in several pistols, both revolver and semi-autos and haven't seen any issues.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=54
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=59
Thank you! Was very sick for most of the last season so never got the chance to go out. Just trying to get everything sorted out before the season this year! Looks like its time to try some out and see how they do!
Post by: Stein on January 10, 2023, 03:17:55 PM
Post by: NewHunter24 on January 10, 2023, 03:26:46 PM
Does S&W say to not shoot them? I'm looking for a 10mm and that is one I'm looking at.
Picked it up online as a used police trade in for $300 through cabelas. Was only fired a few times pretty much new no wear on it. When I picked it up I asked if they had any Hardcast in stock or if they carried them. Started talking to him during the process and he mentioned checking if it's capable of running Hardcast through the barrel since he was not 100% sure on it.
Checked a few other places and most people say it just needs to be cleaned a bit more. Figured the hunt wa forums would know for sure though!
Post by: BLDtraLR on January 10, 2023, 04:17:45 PM
Post by: ironbuck on January 10, 2023, 04:29:10 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 10, 2023, 08:49:22 PM
.
I would worry in grizzly county, but honestly...
.
Defence?
Only if you wound one.
..
Honest, I worry more about cougars ..
Them sneaky *censored*s have actually followed me.
.
Whatever you can shoot quick, and accurate.
Or, a 12 guage..
.
Nothing beats a shotgun at close range.
Most bears I see look like cubs, and they run away faster than anything.
.
I know seeing all the pictures of bears people kill might scare you, but the actual average weight is less than 200 lbs..
.
But, I hunt on the coast, and rarely see them.
.
Unless they are dead in the back of somebody's truck, and usually around 100lbs, and fit in their cooler.
.
I don't carry a sidearm to protect me from bears, but if I need one, my .357 is enough.
.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 10, 2023, 09:02:24 PM
.
If the situation ever develops that you need a "back up weapon" .,..
..
It's whatever you have in your hand.
.
.
Don't worry about bears, usually if they figure out you are there, they fire up the afterburner.
.
Unless you wound one, and then corner it.
.
Side arms are more about the 2 legged predators at the trailhead.
.
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on January 10, 2023, 09:10:30 PM
We had a joke when I guided in griz country. The best side arm is a pocket knife. First you cut off your anatomy. Throw it to the bear. Run like crazy. :chuckle:
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 10, 2023, 09:15:10 PM
.
Let alone reaction time.
.
.
Don't fear the animals in the woods, they don't like you.
.
Usually run away at any chance they get.
.
You stink, and don't belong.
.
Unless you force the fight, they will run.
.
Now, if on a blood trail through a blackberry bramble..
.
Lead with the muzzle.
.
Fire upon target acquisition, and continue until empty.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 10, 2023, 09:17:33 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 10, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
They are going to run, just like you would.And I was talking about black bears...
.
.
I don't even want to ,"skin a grizz ."
Whole different creature.
.
I wouldn't carry my recurve in grizzly county.
.
But, no fear of a black bear.
.
Unless I already shot it and I'm crawling on my hands and knees through a berry field.
.
Tunnels through that crap?
.
Then, if you do recover the animal, the blackberry brambles hurt.
Bleeding?
Yep, it's no fun.
Post by: NewHunter24 on January 10, 2023, 10:08:02 PM
Post by: Cylvertip on January 10, 2023, 11:40:47 PM
I wont go into the woods without a sidearm. This side of the state 9mm with FMJ's or Underwood Xtreme Penetrators .
Post by: GWP on January 11, 2023, 10:54:24 AM
As was said, I would worry about the big cats more.
Post by: hunter399 on January 11, 2023, 11:12:16 AM
Yeah heard they are more scared of you than you are of them & really do not compare to a grizzly at all. Mainly for the big cats, wife said she would feel better if I brought one though plus the thought of walking up to a wounded bear in the thick part of western wa sounds kinda sketchy.It is sketchy.
East or west.
Every wounded bear I've encountered will run to the thickest hole they can find. Lol 😆.
Maybe I have bad luck :dunno. 😆
Post by: Machias on January 12, 2023, 01:34:19 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 12, 2023, 02:34:20 PM
Post by: buckfvr on January 12, 2023, 03:10:38 PM
I am firmly in the "have it but not used it (so far) camp. Ive seen numerous bear and several cats.
Post by: highcountry_hunter on January 12, 2023, 08:34:58 PM
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Post by: NewHunter24 on January 13, 2023, 02:09:47 AM
Are you strictly hunting bears with your bow?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Using a .270 win I picked up a few years ago, liked hunting in the past as a kid (would just follow my dad while he was bear hunting) so I figured I would give it a shot. Can't really take much time off work so I have not really had much luck with deer season and limited time I get can out there during the season.
Looking forward to being able to go for a little longer during the season and possibly eating a bear. :)
Post by: boneaddict on January 13, 2023, 05:42:48 AM
Post by: C-Money on January 13, 2023, 06:31:29 AM
After watching some Paul Harrell videos, FMJ could be the best ammo for self defense in the woods. Paul's videos show the FMJs appear be the best for getting into the vitals of thick skinned large game.
Post by: Bullkllr on January 13, 2023, 07:09:30 AM
Are you strictly hunting bears with your bow?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Using a .270 win I picked up a few years ago, liked hunting in the past as a kid (would just follow my dad while he was bear hunting) so I figured I would give it a shot. Can't really take much time off work so I have not really had much luck with deer season and limited time I get can out there during the season.
Looking forward to being able to go for a little longer during the season and possibly eating a bear. :)
If I was packing a high-power rifle I'd feel pretty good about having myself covered for bears and cats. Hard not to justify a handgun for many other reasons though.
Post by: GWP on January 13, 2023, 08:41:40 AM
I bet you go over that in your mind occasionally? So many things could have gone wrong with it ending in a different outcome.
Details!
Cub’s? Berries?
What do you think provoked the attack? Or was there anything?
Post by: Dan-o on January 13, 2023, 09:09:46 AM
I was attacked by a big black bear. I had a single shot Thompson contender with a 2 power Burris scope. I managed to squeeze off the single round just prior to him hitting me at full charge. It is unbelievable how fast he came. I hit him square in the chest with a 30 30 round. When he hit me, I rolled down the hill ass over tea kettles, all while trying to get another round chambered. When he hit me, my hat came off and that’s what he pounced on. I came up, settled on his shoulders and crossed him. He dropped there with my hat stuck in his teeth.
:yike: :yike: :yike: :yike: :yike:
You need to take up golf.
Happy you're here to share the story.
Post by: tgomez on January 14, 2023, 06:13:29 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on January 14, 2023, 06:27:52 PM
I was attacked by a big black bear. I had a single shot Thompson contender with a 2 power Burris scope. I managed to squeeze off the single round just prior to him hitting me at full charge. It is unbelievable how fast he came. I hit him square in the chest with a 30 30 round. When he hit me, I rolled down the hill ass over tea kettles, all while trying to get another round chambered. When he hit me, my hat came off and that’s what he pounced on. I came up, settled on his shoulders and crossed him. He dropped there with my hat stuck in his teeth.
What do you think caused the attack?
Post by: Dan-o on January 14, 2023, 08:14:29 PM
Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. As most have said, a black bear will usually run the other way unless you corner it. I carry a Glock 30s .45, 230 grains, with a 13 round magazine. I alternate 1 FMJ and 1 hollow point round throughout the entire magazine. I carry more for wolves and cougar. I almost stepped on a black bear that was sleeping in GMU 105 a few years back. I do
n't know who was more scared that day the bear or myself.
@tgomez
Im just curious:
Why stack FMJs in your 45?
I'd think some quality hollow points or hard cast lead would always be more destructive.
Also, 13+1 in your 45 isn't enough for wolves or cougar defense?
What do you carry for that?
Post by: tgomez on January 15, 2023, 05:26:59 AM
@tgomez
Im just curious:
Why stack FMJs in your 45?
I'd think some quality hollow points or hard cast lead would always be more destructive.
Also, 13+1 in your 45 isn't enough for wolves or cougar defense?
What do you carry for that?
* I alternate rounds so I have a round for prenetration followed by one for expansion throughout the entirety of the 13 round magazine.
* I carry a sidearm more for wolves and cougar rather than black bear is what that means. Not that I carry even more ammunition.
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2023, 07:01:04 AM
Yowza! There is a first person horror story!
I bet you go over that in your mind occasionally? So many things could have gone wrong with it ending in a different outcome.
Details!
Cub’s? Berries?
What do you think provoked the attack? Or was there anything?
It was pure luck I had my gun with me. I was photographing elk, it was the first part of September. As I left my truck and started entering the woods, I saw a pile of very fresh bear crap. I thought, hmmmmm so I went back and grabbed it and stuck it in my pack. I so often dont carry. Reading the bears body language, I immediately put down my camera and got the gun out.
He had a big tear in his lip where he had been fighting. I was dressed in camo and even though I talked, then yelled at him, I think all he saw was red. It turned out there was another bear behind me. I wasnt aware of until it was all over. I walked back to my truck and he was standing with his front claws on my hood. He was a beautiful red bear and had left a nice set of scratch marks on the hood of my truck. I joked that if I knew he had done that I would have shot him too. I am guessing he had smelled that bear.
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2023, 07:09:25 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2023, 07:11:43 AM
Post by: tgomez on January 15, 2023, 10:23:03 AM
Sounds like your father and I have the alternating FMJ and hollow points in common throught the magazine. I like my Glock 30s .45 auto for woods defense. Hopefully I never have to use it a day in my life. Crazy story about you and the bear that attacked you, glad you made it out safely and in one piece. That's definitely an experience to share.
Post by: Dan-o on January 15, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
@tgomez
Im just curious:
Why stack FMJs in your 45?
I'd think some quality hollow points or hard cast lead would always be more destructive.
Also, 13+1 in your 45 isn't enough for wolves or cougar defense?
What do you carry for that?
* I alternate rounds so I have a round for prenetration followed by one for expansion throughout the entirety of the 13 round magazine.
* I carry a sidearm more for wolves and cougar rather than black bear is what that means. Not that I carry even more ammunition.
Got it.
Thank you, sir.
Post by: Stein on January 15, 2023, 11:07:59 AM
That said, I don't carry it for anything other than people.
Personally, I've never understood the alternating round idea, especially with FMJ. I can't think of a situation where 9mm FMJ would be the best solution other than making holes in paper with factory ammo for the least cost possible.
Post by: highcountry_hunter on January 15, 2023, 11:22:47 AM
I see…well considering your packing a rifle then packing a pistol around also just seems like extra weight and more gear to fumble around with and bump into. I’ve never been too concerned about black bears but I’ve spent some time in grizz country. Anytime I was in a low visibility area where there was a chance of bumping into a bear at close range I just carried my rifle in a semi ready to shoot position.Are you strictly hunting bears with your bow?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Using a .270 win I picked up a few years ago, liked hunting in the past as a kid (would just follow my dad while he was bear hunting) so I figured I would give it a shot. Can't really take much time off work so I have not really had much luck with deer season and limited time I get can out there during the season.
Looking forward to being able to go for a little longer during the season and possibly eating a bear. :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: KFhunter on January 15, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
Post by: buckfvr on January 15, 2023, 01:15:39 PM
Post by: hunter399 on January 15, 2023, 05:20:36 PM
It was pretty common to carry a pistol ,when checking bait before the season started.
If I have a rifle ,no need for pistol.
That's just me,if you feel it may come handy to have one.
Not gonna hurt to carry it.
Never know when you may need it.
Four leg or two leg protection.
Post by: Wazukie on January 15, 2023, 06:39:39 PM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on January 15, 2023, 06:50:39 PM
Well Ima gonna chime in here. We do have a lot of bear, cats and now wolves were I live. In fact we had to take a bear right in town this year, was getting to close to people. Anyway, when Im in the woods, and even when Im in my truck, its my Glock 40 10mm, 200grn Hornady leaving the barrel at 1300fps. Hot rounds that are hand loaded. 15 in the gun and 15 on the web. I dont really worry about bear to much or really even cats. But wolves thrill kill and so do 2 legged critters. I've never had to draw my weapon, but it makes me feel good to have it on m,y chest, although sometimes I do have my trusty old 30-30 along for the ride.
Very solid advice! We need to arm and protect what we can while we can ............
Post by: ghosthunter on January 15, 2023, 10:32:12 PM
Quote from: Wazukie link=topic=276476. :tup::tup:msg3758048#msg3758048 date=1673836779
Well Ima gonna chime in here. We do have a lot of bear, cats and now wolves were I live. In fact we had to take a bear right in town this year, was getting to close to people. Anyway, when Im in the woods, and even when Im in my truck, its my Glock 40 10mm, 200grn Hornady leaving the barrel at 1300fps. Hot rounds that are hand loaded. 15 in the gun and 15 on the web. I dont really worry about bear to much or really even cats. But wolves thrill kill and so do 2 legged critters. I've never had to draw my weapon, but it makes me feel good to have it on m,y chest, although sometimes I do have my trusty old 30-30 along for the ride.
+1
Post by: ghosthunter on January 15, 2023, 10:45:17 PM
If I am just camping or scouting in an area with snakes , or any other predator. KSG all the way.
Post by: MHWASH on January 16, 2023, 08:39:30 AM
I always carry when black bear hunting. Out of the 9 bears that my son and I have shot, only 2 died right where they were shot. Most run to the thickest stuff they can find. Luckily all have been dead, but the majority of the time they're in places where it's not practical to carry a rifle.
Post by: buckfvr on January 17, 2023, 10:31:11 AM
I almost always carry while in the woods. Mostly 9mm, typically loaded with hard cast bullets. Hard cast bullets give you the penetration of a fmj with the tissue destruction close to a hollow point. I chose to carry a 9mm over a 10mm because of the weight difference and shootability during stressful situations. I've practiced shooting both rapid fire while standing still and while backing away.
I always carry when black bear hunting. Out of the 9 bears that my son and I have shot, only 2 died right where they were shot. Most run to the thickest stuff they can find. Luckily all have been dead, but the majority of the time they're in places where it's not practical to carry a rifle.
This post prompted me to weigh my XDM 5.25 10mm 15+1 vs. my XDM Elite 3.8 9mm 20 +1 and the result is the 9mm is 6oz lighter. Insignificant..... 10mm when the bears are awake, 9mm otherwise. Its just what I do, Id only recommend that a person for sure packs a handgun.
Post by: MHWASH on January 17, 2023, 11:05:59 AM
I almost always carry while in the woods. Mostly 9mm, typically loaded with hard cast bullets. Hard cast bullets give you the penetration of a fmj with the tissue destruction close to a hollow point. I chose to carry a 9mm over a 10mm because of the weight difference and shootability during stressful situations. I've practiced shooting both rapid fire while standing still and while backing away.
I always carry when black bear hunting. Out of the 9 bears that my son and I have shot, only 2 died right where they were shot. Most run to the thickest stuff they can find. Luckily all have been dead, but the majority of the time they're in places where it's not practical to carry a rifle.
This post prompted me to weigh my XDM 5.25 10mm 15+1 vs. my XDM Elite 3.8 9mm 20 +1 and the result is the 9mm is 6oz lighter. Insignificant..... 10mm when the bears are awake, 9mm otherwise. Its just what I do, Id only recommend that a person for sure packs a handgun.
I'll have to weigh mine. But my 10mm is a 1911, and my 9mm is a 365 XL.
Post by: nwwanderer on January 17, 2023, 05:30:14 PM
Post by: brokentrail on January 17, 2023, 05:49:47 PM
http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/12/back-up-bearguns
Post by: Igor on January 17, 2023, 05:59:05 PM
This may be some info folks reading this thread will be interested in, at least one bear hunters opinion.
http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/12/back-up-bearguns
One take-away from that article:
I’m not fond of autoloaders for our use. The .45 ACP or .40 can be had with hardcast bullets, but they have less penetration than a .357. If shooting in an emergency and not held tightly, they often jam, called limp-wristing. It takes hundreds of rounds without jamming to trust an autoloader to one’s life.
That's exactly why I carry a revolver chambered in .45 Colt.
Post by: skagitsteel on January 18, 2023, 09:28:58 AM
Post by: Rat44 on January 18, 2023, 05:51:26 PM
Last one I had gave me a lot of problems that S & W could not seem to fix.
It was a first generation Mountain Revolver.
Switched to a 45 until I acquired a S & W M69.
Its only a 4" 5 shot but I feel confident in it doing its job.
And yes,I practice with a speed loader often.
Post by: dilleytech on January 21, 2023, 02:00:57 PM
9mm is a tale of two guns, self defense hollow points behave like a completely different projectile compared with fmj. The latter has proven almost useless for self defense and the former has worked well.
That said, I don't carry it for anything other than people.
Personally, I've never understood the alternating round idea, especially with FMJ. I can't think of a situation where 9mm FMJ would be the best solution other than making holes in paper with factory ammo for the least cost possible.
Hollow point defensive rounds don’t penetrate well enough to take frontal animal shots. Personally if I’m shooting a charging bear penetration it everything and fmjs would be much better then your typical hollow points. All though I wouldn’t be loading cheap slow plinking fmj’s. I have a buddy that used to bear hunt with hounds he shot a bear at point blank on the head with his 10mm hollow points and they just pancaked with zero penetration. His Buffalo bores left softball sized holes.
Post by: Platensek-po on January 21, 2023, 02:24:51 PM
Post by: KFhunter on January 27, 2023, 09:38:07 PM
maybe you wake up, maybe you don't!
The revolver won't go out of battery when you press the muzzle up into their guts
Post by: Stein on January 27, 2023, 10:09:40 PM
9mm is a tale of two guns, self defense hollow points behave like a completely different projectile compared with fmj. The latter has proven almost useless for self defense and the former has worked well.
That said, I don't carry it for anything other than people.
Personally, I've never understood the alternating round idea, especially with FMJ. I can't think of a situation where 9mm FMJ would be the best solution other than making holes in paper with factory ammo for the least cost possible.
Hollow point defensive rounds don’t penetrate well enough to take frontal animal shots. Personally if I’m shooting a charging bear penetration it everything and fmjs would be much better then your typical hollow points. All though I wouldn’t be loading cheap slow plinking fmj’s. I have a buddy that used to bear hunt with hounds he shot a bear at point blank on the head with his 10mm hollow points and they just pancaked with zero penetration. His Buffalo bores left softball sized holes.
9mm FMJ doesn't stop people, I certainly wouldn't trust it on bears. There are tons of stores in Vietnam where they couldn't use hollow points and they would spray a handful into a guy and he would pop up and keep shooting back. Hollow point works like a different beast in people.
For bears, hard cast would be my choice. Alternating bullets guarantees 50% of the time you have the wrong tool in a situation where you are lucky to get one shot.
Post by: BLDtraLR on January 27, 2023, 10:33:21 PM
I'll chime in on this one. I currently carry a glock 20 10mm with 220 grain buffalo bore, I used to carry a .40 Springfield with 165 grain. Summer of 2019 out hiking with the pack goats I had a l good sized boar stalk us, then charge. 1 warning shot, then 6 successive rounds to stop the bear (which finally rolled at 8 yards). I would guess I hit it 3-4x of the 6 shots I fired inside of 15 yards, it is harder than most people realize to deliver well placed shots from a sidearm at a charging bear. The .40 stopped an attack and did eventually knocked the bear down, but the bear did get up and limp away after rolling down the very steep hillside we were on. I promptly switched to a 10 mm after the incident. Personally I found the semi auto to be ideal for firing successive rounds in a short time, getting back on target quickly with each shot. A large revolver would have been emptied too quickly and been longer to re acquire the target with a lot more recoil, however the .40 certainly seemed to light. Best bet is to carry something you can shoot well and have some practice with. I have always carried the sidearm mainly for the cats, but to date I have not had a cat mess with the goats in the backcountry.:yeah:
To a tee I carry the same glock but with Underwood 200 hard cast and they shoot just fine with a stock barrel check your 220 buffalo bore i found as did Hickok45 on youtube he is awesome and has alot of good vids on there That some of the rounds like to tumble with the stock barrel not taking that chance in a pinch. No problems with the underwood. So here is a thing we do and i would recommend it for some GREAT REAL life practice, Think the guys on eastman did it also. Take a walk down a trail and have your buddy roll a tire down the hill at you whithout knowing where he is. See how many times you actually hit the tire before it's on you. First time i was lucky to even hit it. Now that we have practiced it it's getting better maybe 5-7 out of 10-15 rounds sometimes better and it's alot of fun.It is also highly recommended to put a ghost site on your gun much more easy to get back on target and hit center mass. Just my :twocents: :dunno: :tup: :tup:
Post by: Dan-o on January 27, 2023, 10:37:48 PM
I'll chime in on this one. I currently carry a glock 20 10mm with 220 grain buffalo bore, I used to carry a .40 Springfield with 165 grain. Summer of 2019 out hiking with the pack goats I had a l good sized boar stalk us, then charge. 1 warning shot, then 6 successive rounds to stop the bear (which finally rolled at 8 yards). I would guess I hit it 3-4x of the 6 shots I fired inside of 15 yards, it is harder than most people realize to deliver well placed shots from a sidearm at a charging bear. The .40 stopped an attack and did eventually knocked the bear down, but the bear did get up and limp away after rolling down the very steep hillside we were on. I promptly switched to a 10 mm after the incident. Personally I found the semi auto to be ideal for firing successive rounds in a short time, getting back on target quickly with each shot. A large revolver would have been emptied too quickly and been longer to re acquire the target with a lot more recoil, however the .40 certainly seemed to light. Best bet is to carry something you can shoot well and have some practice with. I have always carried the sidearm mainly for the cats, but to date I have not had a cat mess with the goats in the backcountry.:yeah:
To a tee I carry the same glock but with Underwood 200 hard cast and they shoot just fine with a stock barrel check your 220 buffalo bore i found as did Hickok45 on youtube he is awesome and has alot of good vids on there That some of the rounds like to tumble with the stock barrel not taking that chance in a pinch. No problems with the underwood. So here is a thing we do and i would recommend it for some GREAT REAL life practice, Think the guys on eastman did it also. Take a walk down a trail and have your buddy roll a tire down the hill at you whithout knowing where he is. See how many times you actually hit the tire before it's on you. First time i was lucky to even hit it. Now that we have practiced it it's getting better maybe 5-7 out of 10-15 rounds sometimes better and it's alot of fun.It is also highly recommended to put a ghost site on your gun much more easy to get back on target and hit center mass. Just my :twocents: :dunno: :tup: :tup:
Glock 20 with Underwood Hardcast here as well.
May I never need to use it!
Post by: BLDtraLR on January 27, 2023, 10:46:01 PM
:yeah:I'll chime in on this one. I currently carry a glock 20 10mm with 220 grain buffalo bore, I used to carry a .40 Springfield with 165 grain. Summer of 2019 out hiking with the pack goats I had a l good sized boar stalk us, then charge. 1 warning shot, then 6 successive rounds to stop the bear (which finally rolled at 8 yards). I would guess I hit it 3-4x of the 6 shots I fired inside of 15 yards, it is harder than most people realize to deliver well placed shots from a sidearm at a charging bear. The .40 stopped an attack and did eventually knocked the bear down, but the bear did get up and limp away after rolling down the very steep hillside we were on. I promptly switched to a 10 mm after the incident. Personally I found the semi auto to be ideal for firing successive rounds in a short time, getting back on target quickly with each shot. A large revolver would have been emptied too quickly and been longer to re acquire the target with a lot more recoil, however the .40 certainly seemed to light. Best bet is to carry something you can shoot well and have some practice with. I have always carried the sidearm mainly for the cats, but to date I have not had a cat mess with the goats in the backcountry.:yeah:
To a tee I carry the same glock but with Underwood 200 hard cast and they shoot just fine with a stock barrel check your 220 buffalo bore i found as did Hickok45 on youtube he is awesome and has alot of good vids on there That some of the rounds like to tumble with the stock barrel not taking that chance in a pinch. No problems with the underwood. So here is a thing we do and i would recommend it for some GREAT REAL life practice, Think the guys on eastman did it also. Take a walk down a trail and have your buddy roll a tire down the hill at you whithout knowing where he is. See how many times you actually hit the tire before it's on you. First time i was lucky to even hit it. Now that we have practiced it it's getting better maybe 5-7 out of 10-15 rounds sometimes better and it's alot of fun.It is also highly recommended to put a ghost site on your gun much more easy to get back on target and hit center mass. Just my :twocents: :dunno: :tup: :tup:
Glock 20 with Underwood Hardcast here as well.
May I never need to use it!
:hello: Saying we like to use " Not sure why you wouldn't "
Post by: dilleytech on February 08, 2023, 09:23:18 AM
9mm is a tale of two guns, self defense hollow points behave like a completely different projectile compared with fmj. The latter has proven almost useless for self defense and the former has worked well.
That said, I don't carry it for anything other than people.
Personally, I've never understood the alternating round idea, especially with FMJ. I can't think of a situation where 9mm FMJ would be the best solution other than making holes in paper with factory ammo for the least cost possible.
Hollow point defensive rounds don’t penetrate well enough to take frontal animal shots. Personally if I’m shooting a charging bear penetration it everything and fmjs would be much better then your typical hollow points. All though I wouldn’t be loading cheap slow plinking fmj’s. I have a buddy that used to bear hunt with hounds he shot a bear at point blank on the head with his 10mm hollow points and they just pancaked with zero penetration. His Buffalo bores left softball sized holes.
9mm FMJ doesn't stop people, I certainly wouldn't trust it on bears. There are tons of stores in Vietnam where they couldn't use hollow points and they would spray a handful into a guy and he would pop up and keep shooting back. Hollow point works like a different beast in people.
For bears, hard cast would be my choice. Alternating bullets guarantees 50% of the time you have the wrong tool in a situation where you are lucky to get one shot.
No 9mm round will stop anything if it doesn’t hit vitals or spine. Same goes with any pistol round. You put a fmj through the brain and the thing stops. Put it through the heart or lungs and the thing dies after a little time. If your hollow points doesn’t make it past the muscle or bone then it’s far more worthless then a fmj. You can put 30 holes through or into something and it can still stack if all those shots are non instantly fatal shots.
Humans are small soft shallow targets so hollow points are a good choice for humans.
Post by: Torrent50 on February 08, 2023, 09:08:48 PM
I highly recommend the red dot sight for more rapid target acquisition. Just have to remember to change the batteries.
Post by: dilleytech on February 09, 2023, 07:17:01 AM
I carry a Glock 20 with a Delta Point Pro red dot in a Gunfighters Inc. chest holster whenever I'm in the woods. If I happen to be somewhere where Grizzlies might be around I carry Underwood 200 hardcast. Since I'm on the wet-side I usually carry Underwood 180 XTP. Most of the time I'm more concerned with two legged problems than the four legged ones, though kitties make me a bit nervous.
I highly recommend the red dot sight for more rapid target acquisition. Just have to remember to change the batteries.
I recently added a green dot Holosun scs, and a timnley alpha trigger to my G40 MOS 10mm. Huge improvement to shoot ability. The stock glock trigger was complete trash. I also went with 6” over the g20 5” barrel for that added 100fps bullet speed. Every 100 fps is a pretty big improvement in the world of pistols
Post by: High Climber on February 09, 2023, 07:30:44 AM
I carry a Glock 20 with a Delta Point Pro red dot in a Gunfighters Inc. chest holster whenever I'm in the woods. If I happen to be somewhere where Grizzlies might be around I carry Underwood 200 hardcast. Since I'm on the wet-side I usually carry Underwood 180 XTP. Most of the time I'm more concerned with two legged problems than the four legged ones, though kitties make me a bit nervous.So I have a similar setup, just with a M&P 10mm. I like shooting with the delta point but I think I’m gonna take it off for woods carry. I don’t like what happens when water gets on the glass. The dot gets fragmented looking and becomes basically useless it seems like. Have you had a similar experience with yours?
I highly recommend the red dot sight for more rapid target acquisition. Just have to remember to change the batteries.
Post by: Torrent50 on February 09, 2023, 08:30:33 AM
I carry a Glock 20 with a Delta Point Pro red dot in a Gunfighters Inc. chest holster whenever I'm in the woods. If I happen to be somewhere where Grizzlies might be around I carry Underwood 200 hardcast. Since I'm on the wet-side I usually carry Underwood 180 XTP. Most of the time I'm more concerned with two legged problems than the four legged ones, though kitties make me a bit nervous.So I have a similar setup, just with a M&P 10mm. I like shooting with the delta point but I think I’m gonna take it off for woods carry. I don’t like what happens when water gets on the glass. The dot gets fragmented looking and becomes basically useless it seems like. Have you had a similar experience with yours?
I highly recommend the red dot sight for more rapid target acquisition. Just have to remember to change the batteries.
I haven't noticed that. In fact, I just went and poured water in it to see what you are talking about. I do see it get broken up a little, but I could still pick up the dot easily enough. It might have to do with how bright you run your dot. I don't max mine out. The majority of the people at my old agency run red dots on their duty weapons, which are carried vertically in the holster and we never had an issue that I can recall in any of our qualifications or practice. I don't know that I would want to try a precision 40 yard shot with it like that, but up close and personal I think it will be fine. I appreciate you mentioning it though. I will make sure to keep an eye on it in wet weather now.
The only issue I have with my setup is that it can be a pine needle trap when going thru thick stuff. The horizontal position in the chest rig helps a bit, but I do have to blow it out once in a while.
For anyone interested in the red dot option, I sent my slide to Lone Wolf in Priest River and had them mill it and mount the Delta Point Pro. The milling is only about $150 I think and they did a great job.
Post by: GWP on February 09, 2023, 10:00:38 AM
I'll chime in on this one. I currently carry a glock 20 10mm with 220 grain buffalo bore, I used to carry a .40 Springfield with 165 grain. Summer of 2019 out hiking with the pack goats I had a l good sized boar stalk us, then charge. 1 warning shot, then 6 successive rounds to stop the bear (which finally rolled at 8 yards). I would guess I hit it 3-4x of the 6 shots I fired inside of 15 yards, it is harder than most people realize to deliver well placed shots from a sidearm at a charging bear. The .40 stopped an attack and did eventually knocked the bear down, but the bear did get up and limp away after rolling down the very steep hillside we were on. I promptly switched to a 10 mm after the incident. Personally I found the semi auto to be ideal for firing successive rounds in a short time, getting back on target quickly with each shot. A large revolver would have been emptied too quickly and been longer to re acquire the target with a lot more recoil, however the .40 certainly seemed to light. Best bet is to carry something you can shoot well and have some practice with. I have always carried the sidearm mainly for the cats, but to date I have not had a cat mess with the goats in the backcountry.
I believe the fastest time for handgun shooting accurately is held by a revolver, but events where reloads and capacity are key is held by semi auto's.
Practice, practice practice so you hit where you aim while under duress.
Post by: C-Money on February 13, 2023, 07:12:00 AM
Post by: Dan-o on February 13, 2023, 09:04:55 AM
I really like Paul's break down of the 10mm & .45acp. This is the video that shows the FMJ ammo is not a bad choice...It is 5yo now, but still valid to me.
I really like his videos.
I find him to be informative and no nonsense.
To me, he comes across as wanting to share a wealth of knowledge, not a big ego.
Post by: cooltimber on February 13, 2023, 10:45:39 AM
Post by: Farmer72 on February 13, 2023, 11:13:03 AM
The 10mm was the first Glock I bought back in 1991. If I am not carrying my S&W 41 mag in the woods I am carrying a Glock 10mm. Hard to beat 18 rds. in the pistol (15 rnd. mag with +2 extension and one in the chamber).
Post by: Machias on February 13, 2023, 12:15:57 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on February 13, 2023, 12:57:31 PM
That being said, since I'll have a few trips in grizzly country I did recently order a 460 Rowland upgrade kit for my Kimber 45 acp to have a more powerful alternative should I choose to carry it instead.
Post by: Browndawg on February 15, 2023, 02:34:48 PM
Post by: C-Money on February 20, 2023, 04:43:11 PM
I totally agree, would love to spend some time on the range with Paul.I really like Paul's break down of the 10mm & .45acp. This is the video that shows the FMJ ammo is not a bad choice...It is 5yo now, but still valid to me.
I really like his videos.
I find him to be informative and no nonsense.
To me, he comes across as wanting to share a wealth of knowledge, not a big ego.
Machias, glad you enjoyed it! He is very entertaining.
Post by: Westside88 on February 20, 2023, 06:13:16 PM
Primary backup sidearm is S&W Model 627 with 180gr hard cast bullets in a chest holster. A friend has a huge arsenal, and let me practice with all his handguns so I got to shoot every major cartridge in revolver and semi-auto. 357 Mag is what I shoot the most accurately and repeatably, and those hard casts will penetrate any animal skull provided I do my part to put the bullet there....which is why I focused on the gun that fit me best and that I was most accurate with.I’d like to hear more about this Rowland kit? Who makes them? That sounds like an ideal setup from what I’ve learned so far. And it sounds like you can still shoot 45 acp out of it?
That being said, since I'll have a few trips in grizzly country I did recently order a 460 Rowland upgrade kit for my Kimber 45 acp to have a more powerful alternative should I choose to carry it instead.
Post by: 444Marlin on February 20, 2023, 08:18:51 PM
I run with a 41 mag single action. Cowboy Style
Me too! I love the .41 mag!
:)
Post by: BKMFR on February 25, 2023, 02:34:40 PM
Post by: BKMFR on February 25, 2023, 05:19:10 PM
Black bears might be carnivore, but honestly they are just big raccoons.
.
I would worry in grizzly county, but honestly...
.
Defence?
Only if you wound one.
..
Honest, I worry more about cougars ..
Them sneaky *censored*s have actually followed me.
.
Whatever you can shoot quick, and accurate.
Or, a 12 guage..
.
Nothing beats a shotgun at close range.
Most bears I see look like cubs, and they run away faster than anything.
.
I know seeing all the pictures of bears people kill might scare you, but the actual average weight is less than 200 lbs..
.
But, I hunt on the coast, and rarely see them.
.
Unless they are dead in the back of somebody's truck, and usually around 100lbs, and fit in their cooler.
.
I don't carry a sidearm to protect me from bears, but if I need one, my .357 is enough.
.
So how many black bears have you been involved in, just out of curiosity?
Post by: KFhunter on March 03, 2023, 04:28:42 PM
I've had them popping their jaws, huffing and making displays, I've had them roar at me even when I scared a few but none have ever charged me (yet)
My buddy had one charge him, he had grouse dripping blood on his ATV exhaust pipe and he thinks that's why it ran at him, and the ATV was running!
I didn't witness it, but he's not full of bs either so...there's that.
I've had grizz roar at me too, that was impressive! but no grizz charges (yet), thank god!
I've had more mt lion encounters than I can remember, one followed me and the kids and dog out for a good 1/2 mile before I was armed all the time in the woods (that taught me!)
One lion sat behind me for who knows how long when I was sitting waiting for the other guys to meet up, I was blowing cow calls "just in case" and called that cat in, I turned around and it was..I dunno 10 feet behind me tail a going, I stood up and it spun around and booked it
plenty of other lions trying to ambush me while hunting elk and making calls...
I dunno why I use rabbit or deer distress when I see them so often making elk noises lol
Nothing has ever really scared me yet in the woods (yet) :dunno: No moose (yet), no people (yet), no wolves (yet) even though I was encircled numerous times none have charged (yet)
Moral of the story here? is (yet) keeps popping up over and over ;)
Post by: knob221 on March 08, 2023, 12:10:23 PM
For my first line of defense, it depends on the scenario. I range from carrying nothing at all to just bear spray to both my rifle and my glock 20. There are a lot of reasons I go with a chest holster under my bino harness. Its a great option. The drawback is that aesthetically it is rather tactical and I don't always like the looks I get when hiking with it. That's just me though.
Post by: High Climber on March 10, 2023, 08:47:28 AM
Is that a Razco holster or what do you have there?
Post by: knob221 on March 10, 2023, 09:16:16 AM
@knob221
Is that a Razco holster or what do you have there?
Yes! I bought the combo bino harness and razco holster directly from marsupial gear. The holster is great, but I did have issues with the fasteners. A few of them had self-loosened and fell out after probably 15 days of use afield. I emailed razco and they sent me replacement fasteners, and in the future I will just periodically retighten them.