Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2023, 09:12:46 AM
Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2023, 09:42:26 AM
"Despite regular surveys, there’s no precise count of the mule deer population in the Methow watershed. Fitkin said his best estimate is between 8,000 and 12,000."
I'd say he'd have a hard time finding 2000 deer in the Methow watershed, over count the deer and under count the wolves.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on February 11, 2023, 10:10:11 AM
Post by: timberfaller on February 11, 2023, 11:48:01 AM
Actions speak louder then words is the ole saying!
IF they believe in those "numbers", I am the richest man in the world!! :chuckle:
Post by: hunter399 on February 11, 2023, 12:03:55 PM
Feeding programs was bad....
But we had way more deer then.. That's odd.
That hoenes guy.
Just WOW....
He doesn't even know what GMU he is in ,or the regulations.
Post by: Buckjunkie on February 11, 2023, 01:28:18 PM
Post by: PA BEN on February 12, 2023, 08:28:27 AM
Post by: Dick in the Dirt on February 12, 2023, 08:38:23 AM
Post by: Onewhohikes on February 12, 2023, 08:41:42 AM
Post by: boneaddict on February 12, 2023, 08:53:54 AM
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2023, 10:10:14 AM
All of the deer eating alfalfa in your field are committing suicide. :dunno:According to these guys deer don't eat grass or alfalfa.
Them deer are just standing in the field ,with there head down,and pretending to chew that stuff up.
All deer do that.
These people I swear.
Post by: buckfvr on February 12, 2023, 10:15:22 AM
All of the deer eating alfalfa in your field are committing suicide. :dunno:
They (deer) eat any of it live and green but do not eat dry hay or alfalfa stalks. Elk will eat it gone same as moose horse and cows. Deer root through a bale and eat all the tops and leaves and leave behind a pile of stalks.
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2023, 11:01:56 AM
If it wasn't for people allowing deer to eat out of there hay shed,or just plain feeding them.
There most likely wouldn't be any deer to hunt in this state.
Post by: vandeman17 on February 12, 2023, 11:14:13 AM
Post by: boneaddict on February 12, 2023, 11:43:40 AM
Post by: bigmacc on February 12, 2023, 11:44:46 AM
:rolleyes: 12k:yeah:….I remember 10-20 years ago I believe, they estimated the herd at 12-16k and I said that was probably an aggressive estimate. Now 8-12k which(imo) is overly aggressive also from what we are seeing the last few years. Nevertheless, I witnessed this herd back in the 50,s and 60,s when it was 35-40k head and I remember conversations amongst folks in my family and Game fellas that those estimates were probably light. Heck if this 8-12k is correct, they LOST that many deer in the “deep freeze” in the late 60,s and because of feeding (a lot more could have died that winter) and solid Game management the herd bounced back within a few years. All these numbers show a trend with this herd. The biggest drops and declines imo started when we lost our “Game Department “ back in the 90,s. When they became WDFW is when this herd(Methow) started spiraling because of a drop down the pecking order. The herd is not the priority it once was and the steady decline in numbers shows it. Yep, this is what the largest migrating mule deer herd (at one time) has become, a very “optimistic “ 8-12 thousand deer….Sorry for the rant.
Post by: buckfvr on February 12, 2023, 01:29:37 PM
I will restate what all my research and reading has said about deer and winter feeding. Deer in alfalfa fields are not the problem because those deer are able to go into those fields consistently and thus their stomachs are able to handle the nutrients, sugars, proteins etc that they are eating. Its the sudden pile of feed/alfalfa or whatever when those same deer are starving and have been surviving on a completely different food source that CAN do them more harm than good. Their stomachs adjust based on the available food and their enzymes, bacteria and acids in their gut can't just adjust overnight. This is not specific to deer as almost all animals like goats, sheep, horses etc have the same issues.
This is the best answer. Ive read this many times and Ive also watched deer feed on hay and alfalfa for many years. They do get right after the bales but are selective about what they actually eat and there is always evidence left over showing they waste more than they eat, and thankfully that contributes to my compost pile each year.......always a big mess of stalks left over to bring down unless elk or moose stop by.
Post by: Twispriver on February 12, 2023, 05:30:47 PM
Wildlife biologists in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and Utah all seem to agree and say the same thing so its not just Mr. Fitkin making this up. (this time)
BigMac what else has changed in the Methow since the 1960s besides the Game Department becoming the WDFW and what do you think had more impact on the deer population?
Post by: spin05 on February 13, 2023, 04:49:23 AM
I will restate what all my research and reading has said about deer and winter feeding. Deer in alfalfa fields are not the problem because those deer are able to go into those fields consistently and thus their stomachs are able to handle the nutrients, sugars, proteins etc that they are eating. Its the sudden pile of feed/alfalfa or whatever when those same deer are starving and have been surviving on a completely different food source that CAN do them more harm than good. Their stomachs adjust based on the available food and their enzymes, bacteria and acids in their gut can't just adjust overnight. This is not specific to deer as almost all animals like goats, sheep, horses etc have the same issues.
I can remember in late 90's our own state putting out feeders in the Entiat after the fire ,that i believe had alfalfa pellets in em.
Post by: hunter399 on February 13, 2023, 06:46:35 AM
Peace,love,co-exist🌈🌈🌈🌈
If a few deer starve to death ,it's ok man.
Some hungry predator will get a free meal.
It's all about the circle of life....cimba!🦁
Give me a break.
Isn't this the third or fourth thread this winter.
Don't feed the deer.
Post by: hunter399 on February 13, 2023, 07:49:13 AM
Shouldn't a percentage of lience sales go to feeding programs. Our state hands are tied with most predator management in this state. Everything from trapping to spring bear,to hounds, and everything in between.
So with predator management being a lost cause in Washington ,isn't the least the game department could do is feeding programs.
Just say in.
Here is statewide deer harvest chart.
Looks like our average for the past ,should be around 30k plus or minus.
Looks like soon our average will be 20k.
If you don't see a problem,then your not looking.
Post by: C-Money on February 13, 2023, 08:05:22 AM
Post by: hunter399 on February 13, 2023, 08:30:23 AM
I will restate what all my research and reading has said about deer and winter feeding. Deer in alfalfa fields are not the problem because those deer are able to go into those fields consistently and thus their stomachs are able to handle the nutrients, sugars, proteins etc that they are eating. Its the sudden pile of feed/alfalfa or whatever when those same deer are starving and have been surviving on a completely different food source that CAN do them more harm than good. Their stomachs adjust based on the available food and their enzymes, bacteria and acids in their gut can't just adjust overnight. This is not specific to deer as almost all animals like goats, sheep, horses etc have the same issues.I totally agree about the digestive track between deer vs elk and other ungulate.
And that starting a feeding program may be bad this time of year.
But ,but,but.......
These are also the same biologists that protect predators at the highest level. Also allow our deer herds to dip below average. Skew deer counts. Promote a nature take its course management.
Should I trust what they say.
I'm not really sure about that.
I'm not one to promote the state making bags on top of bags of money . Then not wanting to put some or a tiny bit back into the herd through feeding programs.
I'm talking about feeding programs the WDFW could do.
Not someone's hay shed.
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2023, 08:37:39 AM
:yeah: vandeman17 gets itLots has changed. The North Cascades pass opened in the 70,s and people that never knew of the Methow or “the little town at the end of the road” (Winthrop) suddenly knew. The herd still did great through the 70,s, 80,s and into the 90,s. Then the Game Department became WDFW, hound hunting was done away with, predators were and are coddled, wolves are flourishing as well as bears and cats. The biggest negative impact on this herd is exploding predator numbers(cats, bears and wolves) and the mismanagement of them by the state and the WDFW. Cats are and have killed literally thousands upon thousands of deer in the valley since the 90,s, some say 10,s of thousands since their numbers were aggressively kept in check. Throw in an exploding bear population that are hammering fawn crops and growing wolf numbers and a blind man can see the herd in this particular valley has a huge uphill challenge to grow, in fact, it keeps declining. Imho, exploding predator numbers and their mismanagement are the number one issues contributing to the decline of the Methow herd. Sure their are other factors but those are my number one and even with other factors(encroachment, some habitat loss etc) I strongly feel if predator numbers were aggressively kept in check(like pre 95) we would see a huge improvement in the herd as far as growth within 3-5 years…. Just my opinion and :twocents:
Wildlife biologists in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and Utah all seem to agree and say the same thing so its not just Mr. Fitkin making this up. (this time)
BigMac what else has changed in the Methow since the 1960s besides the Game Department becoming the WDFW and what do you think had more impact on the deer population?
Post by: hunter399 on February 13, 2023, 08:55:23 AM
During the winter of 1996-97 — the harshest in recent memory — snow started in early October. By December, the snow was 5 feet deep and there were reports of dead deer in people’s yards, Fitkin said.
After much deliberation, WDFW launched an emergency feeding program for mule deer. WDFW set up feeding stations in a few accessible areas in the valley and handed out food to people to put out for deer, said Fitkin.
“In retrospect, it was largely a failure — I’m just going to be blunt,” Fitkin said. Although the feeding program may have helped a few adults survive, most fawns died anyway. At a feeding site, a mother deer may actually kick a fawn off the food to get to it herself. Even in an average winter, only half the fawns survive, he said.
WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RANCHER AND BIOLOGISTS.
Ill tell ya. Right now.
Doesn't sound like the feeding program was a failure.
Every adult that lives another year to breed is a win in my book.
Ranchers know this and protect every animal in herd.
Biologists don't know this.
The scary part is biologists are just wildlife ranchers,but don't have the mindset to do it.
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2023, 09:05:05 AM
Post by: hunter399 on February 13, 2023, 09:15:42 AM
How about baling up some CRP for winter grazing...not quite as high of octane as alfalfa or quality grass.It's a great idea.
The problem is the biologists would never let it be used as feed .Cause deer don't eat that stuff in the winter according to them. Also feeding programs don't work according to them.
It's a great idea ,no backing from people that could make the most impact with your idea.
Post by: vandeman17 on February 13, 2023, 09:25:59 AM
I will restate what all my research and reading has said about deer and winter feeding. Deer in alfalfa fields are not the problem because those deer are able to go into those fields consistently and thus their stomachs are able to handle the nutrients, sugars, proteins etc that they are eating. Its the sudden pile of feed/alfalfa or whatever when those same deer are starving and have been surviving on a completely different food source that CAN do them more harm than good. Their stomachs adjust based on the available food and their enzymes, bacteria and acids in their gut can't just adjust overnight. This is not specific to deer as almost all animals like goats, sheep, horses etc have the same issues.I totally agree about the digestive track between deer vs elk and other ungulate.
And that starting a feeding program may be bad this time of year.
But ,but,but.......
These are also the same biologists that protect predators at the highest level. Also allow our deer herds to dip below average. Skew deer counts. Promote a nature take its course management.
Should I trust what they say.
I'm not really sure about that.
I'm not one to promote the state making bags on top of bags of money . Then not wanting to put some or a tiny bit back into the herd through feeding programs.
I'm talking about feeding programs the WDFW could do.
Not someone's hay shed.
I only was referring to the science behind feeding starving deer a high sugar, high nutrient diet suddenly. Everything else you mentioned has nothing to do with what my post was about.
Post by: hunter399 on February 13, 2023, 09:35:51 AM
Well where did your research,data,and reading come from.I will restate what all my research and reading has said about deer and winter feeding. Deer in alfalfa fields are not the problem because those deer are able to go into those fields consistently and thus their stomachs are able to handle the nutrients, sugars, proteins etc that they are eating. Its the sudden pile of feed/alfalfa or whatever when those same deer are starving and have been surviving on a completely different food source that CAN do them more harm than good. Their stomachs adjust based on the available food and their enzymes, bacteria and acids in their gut can't just adjust overnight. This is not specific to deer as almost all animals like goats, sheep, horses etc have the same issues.I totally agree about the digestive track between deer vs elk and other ungulate.
And that starting a feeding program may be bad this time of year.
But ,but,but.......
These are also the same biologists that protect predators at the highest level. Also allow our deer herds to dip below average. Skew deer counts. Promote a nature take its course management.
Should I trust what they say.
I'm not really sure about that.
I'm not one to promote the state making bags on top of bags of money . Then not wanting to put some or a tiny bit back into the herd through feeding programs.
I'm talking about feeding programs the WDFW could do.
Not someone's hay shed.
I only was referring to the science behind feeding starving deer a high sugar, high nutrient diet suddenly. Everything else you mentioned has nothing to do with what my post was about.
I guess I just assumed it came from the same biologists in the artical,or across the country that promoted this let nature take its course theory. Although most times I will agree with science/biologists on most things wildlife.
There are just some stuff that don't pan out on paper .
Feeding ungulates in the winter is one of those things.
My opinion anyway.
Post by: vandeman17 on February 13, 2023, 09:52:43 AM
Well where did your research,data,and reading come from.I will restate what all my research and reading has said about deer and winter feeding. Deer in alfalfa fields are not the problem because those deer are able to go into those fields consistently and thus their stomachs are able to handle the nutrients, sugars, proteins etc that they are eating. Its the sudden pile of feed/alfalfa or whatever when those same deer are starving and have been surviving on a completely different food source that CAN do them more harm than good. Their stomachs adjust based on the available food and their enzymes, bacteria and acids in their gut can't just adjust overnight. This is not specific to deer as almost all animals like goats, sheep, horses etc have the same issues.I totally agree about the digestive track between deer vs elk and other ungulate.
And that starting a feeding program may be bad this time of year.
But ,but,but.......
These are also the same biologists that protect predators at the highest level. Also allow our deer herds to dip below average. Skew deer counts. Promote a nature take its course management.
Should I trust what they say.
I'm not really sure about that.
I'm not one to promote the state making bags on top of bags of money . Then not wanting to put some or a tiny bit back into the herd through feeding programs.
I'm talking about feeding programs the WDFW could do.
Not someone's hay shed.
I only was referring to the science behind feeding starving deer a high sugar, high nutrient diet suddenly. Everything else you mentioned has nothing to do with what my post was about.
I guess I just assumed it came from the same biologists in the artical,or across the country that promoted this let nature take its course theory. Although most times I will agree with science/biologists on most things wildlife.
There are just some stuff that don't pan out on paper .
Feeding ungulates in the winter is one of those things.
My opinion anyway.
My research indeed came from biologists around the country who know a heck of a lot more about how animals live and survive then you or I do. I also grew up around multiple types of animals along with currently owning horses to know first hand the damage that sudden changes in diet can do.
Where I think you are incorrect is in that whole "nature taking its course" concept. What the science and the biologists are saying is that while the intentions may be good, people stepping in to try and help at certain times of the year can do more harm than benefit. You are welcome to your opinion on the subject and I appreciate your enthusiasm on trying to help our herds but thinking that everyone in the wdfw/biologists are out to screw over hunters just isn't true. I disagree with A TON of things they do but on this specific subject, they are spot on in my opinion. :tup:
Post by: timberfaller on February 13, 2023, 10:20:11 AM
A lot has changed since the 60's and started to run away by the 70's in the Methow. Add to the now low numbers of deer, all the years of doe hunts, which were ONLY suppose to last 3 years! Thats when the decline in numbers started!! Plus the land purchases that didn't protect winter habitat! Hint: Big Valley Ranch!
As I've ranted elsewhere, biologist should be made to work on a cattle operation for at least five years before they are allowed to practice their "degree's". I know of no cattleman that removes producing heifers to increase their herds!
If one wants to really know the Methow herd, find the study done in the early 70's. The funny thing is about that study, the ONE who did the most "work" was just a high school grad who knew how to shoot!! But that is another story!! "remember when you see 10 deer in a area, record 100. For you didn't see them" A 1970 biologist! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2023, 10:37:29 AM
:tup: bigmacc post #23!!Yep👍 back in the day they had a herd that could support doe hunts, we always had at least a few folks in camp that would draw, not a single tag was ever used except for fire starters. Didn’t have issues with folks that took does back then, it just wasn’t our deal. Now, with the herd in a tailspin and predators killing thousands I for the life of me don’t get handing out ANY doe tags in the Methow.
A lot has changed since the 60's and started to run away by the 70's in the Methow. Add to the now low numbers of deer, all the years of doe hunts, which were ONLY suppose to last 3 years! Thats when the decline in numbers started!! Plus the land purchases that didn't protect winter habitat! Hint: Big Valley Ranch!
As I've ranted elsewhere, biologist should be made to work on a cattle operation for at least five years before they are allowed to practice their "degree's". I know of no cattleman that removes producing heifers to increase their herds!
If one wants to really know the Methow herd, find the study done in the early 70's. The funny thing is about that study, the ONE who did the most "work" was just a high school grad who knew how to shoot!! But that is another story!! "remember when you see 10 deer in a area, record 100. For you didn't see them" A 1970 biologist! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: timberfaller on February 13, 2023, 10:49:25 AM
Post by: zwickeyman on February 13, 2023, 11:22:51 AM
:tup: bigmacc post #23!!Yep👍 back in the day they had a herd that could support doe hunts, we always had at least a few folks in camp that would draw, not a single tag was ever used except for fire starters. Didn’t have issues with folks that took does back then, it just wasn’t our deal. Now, with the herd in a tailspin and predators killing thousands I for the life of me don’t get handing out any doe tags in the Methow.
A lot has changed since the 60's and started to run away by the 70's in the Methow. Add to the now low numbers of deer, all the years of doe hunts, which were ONLY suppose to last 3 years! Thats when the decline in numbers started!! Plus the land purchases that didn't protect winter habitat! Hint: Big Valley Ranch!
As I've ranted elsewhere, biologist should be made to work on a cattle operation for at least five years before they are allowed to practice their "degree's". I know of no cattleman that removes producing heifers to increase their herds!
If one wants to really know the Methow herd, find the study done in the early 70's. The funny thing is about that study, the ONE who did the most "work" was just a high school grad who knew how to shoot!! But that is another story!! "remember when you see 10 deer in a area, record 100. For you didn't see them" A 1970 biologist! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
:yeah:I 100% agree
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 13, 2023, 05:02:23 PM
Post by: Twispriver on February 13, 2023, 05:13:44 PM
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2023, 07:18:38 PM
I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:I did 👍. I mentioned that encroachment and habitat loss are also issues but imo, predators and mismanagement of predators were the number one issues. I’ll stand by that til the cows come home. I’ll say it again, if predators were all of the sudden aggressively kept in check like they were pre 95, we would see this herd noticeably bounce back within 3-5 years! I’m not saying they’d be back to numbers from the 1960,s but I think we would all notice a dramatic positive change in the growth of this herd. Predators have been killing thousands upon thousands of deer in this valley over the last few years, I know some former “state employees” and family members who have worked in other states game departments that stated years ago that the Methow was headed towards “predator pit” status and if things kept going the way they were, it would be happening sooner than later, this was back in the early 2000’s.
Post by: timberfaller on February 13, 2023, 08:06:48 PM
I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:
That is well evident when one drives through the valley. Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!! Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl! Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does. I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there. Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.
Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry! But boy do they think they are smart!
Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going????? Betcha the department heads are clueless!!
Post by: huntnnw on February 13, 2023, 09:27:42 PM
I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:
That is well evident when one drives through the valley. Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!! Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl! Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does. I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there. Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.
Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry! But boy do they think they are smart!
Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going????? Betcha the department heads are clueless!!
yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically
Post by: HillHound on February 14, 2023, 05:13:59 AM
Post by: hunter399 on February 14, 2023, 07:34:02 AM
Along with a bunch of other hunting regs.
Not sure if that's all Commission or if you can thank your local biologists .
Instead of letting deer feed out of your hay shed.
We can just get depredation permits ,put more meat in the freezer. That will be less breeding stock does/cows in the herd.
I know alot of guys wanna follow the science ,since spring bear was a big deal. Not all biologists are friends of hunters.
This let nature take its course ,wildlife plan is not a management plan.
Like said in another reply.
Some things on paper ,not always the best management plan in the field.
Post by: buckfvr on February 14, 2023, 09:35:52 AM
:twocents:
Post by: hunter399 on February 14, 2023, 09:41:13 AM
If you have stock dependent on hay in your shed, you can either make a serious effort to keep deer/elk out or get depredation tags IF your situation meets criteria set by wdfw. No effort to keep them out, no tags. So let them eat if thats what youve always done, it will just be how it has been. Draw attention to yourself by asking for tags, hoops for you to jump through will be deployed.I guess that's true.
:twocents:
I have multiple friends with livestock.
That have 20+ deer that have been eating out of there hay sheds all winter.
Some of those friends live close to public land.
So those deer do get hunted every year by the public.
Post by: OutHouse on February 14, 2023, 10:13:00 AM
Post by: hunter399 on February 14, 2023, 10:45:24 AM
He just let's them eat what they want all winter.
Doesn't really care ,doesn't try to stop them.
Even if there is a law ,he won't stop them.
Any Joe hunter can hunt these deer ,since public land is not far off from his place.
So the state makes money ,from tag sales.
Because of him and many others.
Now you want to prosecute those people.
Crazy ,just crazy.
Post by: bigmacc on February 14, 2023, 01:34:46 PM
Our group killed 4 bears this past deer season and had opportunities at 3 others. I have never seen so many bears in the Methow. We had a group of 11 people this year and seen 13 bears over 10 days! Yep I b!$?& about bears and we as a group decided last year to make them a priority. We did some homework and scouting last summer. 4 days into deer season we had seen more bear than deer! Bears are hammering fawns in the Methow, we lost track of fawn kills we found, went into one area we know of that is a known fawning area and found over 2 dozen fawn kills(bone, fur etc) within a mile or so radius! Sickening.I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:
That is well evident when one drives through the valley. Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!! Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl! Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does. I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there. Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.
Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry! But boy do they think they are smart!
Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going????? Betcha the department heads are clueless!!
yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically
Post by: timberfaller on February 14, 2023, 02:17:20 PM
Thanks for the help! Chili and swiss steaks, best made from Bear!!! Yummmmmmm!
Post by: mountainman on February 14, 2023, 04:48:11 PM
Sounds like I need to make some trips back home and help out, like the old days! Right Rog?Our group killed 4 bears this past deer season and had opportunities at 3 others. I have never seen so many bears in the Methow. We had a group of 11 people this year and seen 13 bears over 10 days! Yep I b!$?& about bears and we as a group decided last year to make them a priority. We did some homework and scouting last summer. 4 days into deer season we had seen more bear than deer! Bears are hammering fawns in the Methow, we lost track of fawn kills we found, went into one area we know of that is a known fawning area and found over 2 dozen fawn kills(bone, fur etc) within a mile or so radius! Sickening.I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:
That is well evident when one drives through the valley. Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!! Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl! Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does. I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there. Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.
Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry! But boy do they think they are smart!
Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going????? Betcha the department heads are clueless!!
yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically
Post by: bigmacc on February 14, 2023, 05:12:19 PM
:tup: bigmacc!!👍👍…A buddy made a bunch of pepperoni for us with jalapeños, yummy!! We will have to give your combo a try👍
Thanks for the help! Chili and swiss steaks, best made from Bear!!! Yummmmmmm!
Post by: wolfbait on February 15, 2023, 12:56:55 AM
I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:I did 👍. I mentioned that encroachment and habitat loss are also issues but imo, predators and mismanagement of predators were the number one issues. I’ll stand by that til the cows come home. I’ll say it again, if predators were all of the sudden aggressively kept in check like they were pre 95, we would see this herd noticeably bounce back within 3-5 years! I’m not saying they’d be back to numbers from the 1960,s but I think we would all notice a dramatic positive change in the growth of this herd. Predators have been killing thousands upon thousands of deer in this valley over the last few years, I know some former “state employees” and family members who have worked in other states game departments that stated years ago that the Methow was headed towards “predator pit” status and if things kept going the way they were, it would be happening sooner than later, this was back in the early 2000’s.
:yeah: :bash: :bash:
It is the uncontrolled predators and piss poor management that have put our deer herds in the predator pit. Look out across the landscape and you will see tons of habitat for deer, but there aren't many deer left to use it.
You have how many wolves hitting the deer year around, right now they are killing the hell out of them in Gold Cr., which pack, who the hell knows. WDFW don't care to keep track of how many wolf packs we have, that was proven from the start. There's a pack up the Twisp River, Frost lk area that are working the deer over, they have been there all winter, people hear them howling at night. There's another bunch up around the head of Pipestone Canyon country. Everything the USFWS and the fake environmentalist told the people about wolves when they had talks about bringing them in, turned out to be lies when the wolves hit the ground in the lower 48. Many of these same lies are passed on by state game agencies as true.
Then we have cougars in the low lands, the Valley floor, couple nights ago a cougar came through and killed two doe's within a mile of each other, coyotes and birds had them cleaned up in a couple of days. There are places where cougars ambush deer, I have ridden through a few of them over the years, dead deer everywhere some old, some as fresh as a few days. seems cougar favor the liver in deer I believe, most of these deer were untouched except where they had their ribcage tore open. How many cougars are on the Valley floor? I don't know, but if any of the collars are still on the cougars, I'm sure WDFW would know.
Bears have been a problem for quite a few years now, if you ever happen to ride through a fawning area it will make you sick, it's a massacre. Why the Doe's have fawns in the same area every year I don't know. This summer we had bears in Twisp causing problems, we have had cougars in Twisp in the middle of summer that last few years hunting town deer.
Coyotes kill their fare share, and then we have the New People that drive like a batoutahell everywhere they go, they don't slow down when they see deer along the hi way, they just plow through> I had a guy pass me when they could clearly see we were slowed down for the deer crossing the road, they slammed right into one, dragging it down the road a ways. we drove past as they got out to look at what use to be their plastic bumper etc.. Either they can't understand the reason for slowing down or they just don't care. Then we have the same people that think they can just let their dogs run loose because they live in the county, I know of a few this year that ended up becoming deer chasers and I don't think they made it back home.
I think it was Fitkin that wanted a special low land hunt to try to kill off the farmland and town deer a few years back, that didn't fly if I remember right.
In the 50's the Game Department use to buy old horses and lead them up on their land, they then would shoot them and get the coyotes coming in good, they would lace the horse with 1080. It killed everything that ate on it, there were dead coyotes everywhere. Not saying that's what should be done now, but it clearly shows that they had the welfare of the herds in their front sights.
Look at today with WDFW, they clearly do not want deer hunting, they have done everything in their power to kill off the herds. Years ago farmers use to lease farm land from the game department, and with that lease they had to save a percentage of the hay to feed the deer. You can still find the feed racks where they use to feed them in the winter. They could still do that today, they lease quite a bit of farm land. In 96-97 the locals had been feeding deer for quite some time before WDFW decided they would help also, they brought in truck loads of rich alfalfa, and pellets and handed them out to those who had been feeding. And when they started their own feeding, they didn't get too far off the road, and deer started getting hit on the hi way. Some of them died within a few feet of the feeding stations, they went from starvation to rich feed. Those of us who had been feeding the deer with our stock never lost any that I know of. It was a hard winter on the deer, some of them that had not been fed and pulled through were skin and bone when green up time rolled up, but it wasn't long and you couldn't tell. And now they want to make it against the law to feed deer in the winter? We see some of the same deer we feed come back year after year, along with their offspring. I always wonder where they go to keep from being eaten. I remember a few years back they put out a bunch of doe tags, I talk to a guy at the gas station who had 2 doe's in his rig, he said his party was coming back the next weekend to finish off their tags. It was a slaughter, just what WDFW wanted.
WDFW's actions show that they don't want deer hunting, they want everything controlled by predators, and that is exactly where we are today. At this stage of the game we have plenty of deer habitat just not many deer. How long will WDFW be able to lie about the deer numbers? WDFW have an agenda and it don't include deer hunting, they want to be tax payer funded. :twocents:
Post by: bigmacc on February 15, 2023, 07:59:21 AM
Agree👍….Bingo.I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:I did 👍. I mentioned that encroachment and habitat loss are also issues but imo, predators and mismanagement of predators were the number one issues. I’ll stand by that til the cows come home. I’ll say it again, if predators were all of the sudden aggressively kept in check like they were pre 95, we would see this herd noticeably bounce back within 3-5 years! I’m not saying they’d be back to numbers from the 1960,s but I think we would all notice a dramatic positive change in the growth of this herd. Predators have been killing thousands upon thousands of deer in this valley over the last few years, I know some former “state employees” and family members who have worked in other states game departments that stated years ago that the Methow was headed towards “predator pit” status and if things kept going the way they were, it would be happening sooner than later, this was back in the early 2000’s.
:yeah: :bash: :bash:
It is the uncontrolled predators and piss poor management that have put our deer herds in the predator pit. Look out across the landscape and you will see tons of habitat for deer, but there aren't many deer left to use it.
You have how many wolves hitting the deer year around, right now they are killing the hell out of them in Gold Cr., which pack, who the hell knows. WDFW don't care to keep track of how many wolf packs we have, that was proven from the start. There's a pack up the Twisp River, Frost lk area that are working the deer over, they have been there all winter, people hear them howling at night. There's another bunch up around the head of Pipestone Canyon country. Everything the USFWS and the fake environmentalist told the people about wolves when they had talks about bringing them in, turned out to be lies when the wolves hit the ground in the lower 48. Many of these same lies are passed on by state game agencies as true.
Then we have cougars in the low lands, the Valley floor, couple nights ago a cougar came through and killed two doe's within a mile of each other, coyotes and birds had them cleaned up in a couple of days. There are places where cougars ambush deer, I have ridden through a few of them over the years, dead deer everywhere some old, some as fresh as a few days. seems cougar favor the liver in deer I believe, most of these deer were untouched except where they had their ribcage tore open. How many cougars are on the Valley floor? I don't know, but if any of the collars are still on the cougars, I'm sure WDFW would know.
Bears have been a problem for quite a few years now, if you ever happen to ride through a fawning area it will make you sick, it's a massacre. Why the Doe's have fawns in the same area every year I don't know. This summer we had bears in Twisp causing problems, we have had cougars in Twisp in the middle of summer that last few years hunting town deer.
Coyotes kill their fare share, and then we have the New People that drive like a batoutahell everywhere they go, they don't slow down when they see deer along the hi way, they just plow through> I had a guy pass me when they could clearly see we were slowed down for the deer crossing the road, they slammed right into one, dragging it down the road a ways. we drove past as they got out to look at what use to be their plastic bumper etc.. Either they can't understand the reason for slowing down or they just don't care. Then we have the same people that think they can just let their dogs run loose because they live in the county, I know of a few this year that ended up becoming deer chasers and I don't think they made it back home.
I think it was Fitkin that wanted a special low land hunt to try to kill off the farmland and town deer a few years back, that didn't fly if I remember right.
In the 50's the Game Department use to buy old horses and lead them up on their land, they then would shoot them and get the coyotes coming in good, they would lace the horse with 1080. It killed everything that ate on it, there were dead coyotes everywhere. Not saying that's what should be done now, but it clearly shows that they had the welfare of the herds in their front sights.
Look at today with WDFW, they clearly do not want deer hunting, they have done everything in their power to kill off the herds. Years ago farmers use to lease farm land from the game department, and with that lease they had to save a percentage of the hay to feed the deer. You can still find the feed racks where they use to feed them in the winter. They could still do that today, they lease quite a bit of farm land. In 96-97 the locals had been feeding deer for quite some time before WDFW decided they would help also, they brought in truck loads of rich alfalfa, and pellets and handed them out to those who had been feeding. And when they started their own feeding, they didn't get too far off the road, and deer started getting hit on the hi way. Some of them died within a few feet of the feeding stations, they went from starvation to rich feed. Those of us who had been feeding the deer with our stock never lost any that I know of. It was a hard winter on the deer, some of them that had not been fed and pulled through were skin and bone when green up time rolled up, but it wasn't long and you couldn't tell. And now they want to make it against the law to feed deer in the winter? We see some of the same deer we feed come back year after year, along with their offspring. I always wonder where they go to keep from being eaten. I remember a few years back they put out a bunch of doe tags, I talk to a guy at the gas station who had 2 doe's in his rig, he said his party was coming back the next weekend to finish off their tags. It was a slaughter, just what WDFW wanted.
WDFW's actions show that they don't want deer hunting, they want everything controlled by predators, and that is exactly where we are today. At this stage of the game we have plenty of deer habitat just not many deer. How long will WDFW be able to lie about the deer numbers? WDFW have an agenda and it don't include deer hunting, they want to be tax payer funded. :twocents:
Post by: buckfvr on February 15, 2023, 09:49:06 AM
Population of this state way more than doubled since then to now. Baby boomers by the butt loads retired and headed towards those beautiful winter range areas and towns. Its people caused changes exacerbated by rotten agendas and p*ss poor management by yes, wdfw. Free ride for predators and no management for ungulates, that simple imho.
Add in many thousand california relocates and here we are.
:twocents:
Post by: timberfaller on February 15, 2023, 10:21:20 AM
:tup: bigmacc!!👍👍…A buddy made a bunch of pepperoni for us with jalapeños, yummy!! We will have to give your combo a try👍
Thanks for the help! Chili and swiss steaks, best made from Bear!!! Yummmmmmm!
Find some Ghost pepper, if you like a little more heat!! Brother in law usually gets a bear, makes burger out of most of them. Kidney beens, tomato sauce, lots of chili powder and corn bread! Yum!
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2023, 11:21:08 AM
At this point ,they might as well just ban all baiting for deer and elk ,year round.
Really what's the difference in feeding November vs December.
Not much.
Or archery season
What's the difference between December vs January.
Nothing that's the difference.
The way I see it .
Your for feeding.
Or against it year round.
Cause most hunting seasons go into winter months.
When are hunters gonna stand together on something.
These biologists are not your friend ,when it comes to wildlife issues.
Trust me there never wrong.
Ask one the'll tell ya.
Post by: wolfbait on February 15, 2023, 11:34:12 PM
Worse thing for causing increased predation is to crowd ungulates into a smaller area i.e. homes in every winter range in this state. I remember all too well how the Methow, Colockum, Okanogan, and even the n.e. corner looked back in the 70's. Even the Wenas and Lt. Murray were loaded with deer/elk by comparison.
Population of this state way more than doubled since then to now. Baby boomers by the butt loads retired and headed towards those beautiful winter range areas and towns. Its people caused changes exacerbated by rotten agendas and p*ss poor management by yes, wdfw. Free ride for predators and no management for ungulates, that simple imho.
Add in many thousand california relocates and here we are.
:twocents:
We never had Town Deer until they released wolves on us, and we didn't see mule deer hang on county roads and around homes in the middle of summer, they would be back in the higher elevations. There are many areas I use to hunt that are wiped clean of deer, even areas that are closer to town that were good hunting in the later part of the season, have no deer. But they do have wolves working the areas.
Wolves changed the behavior of the ungulates more than any other predator. From what I have seen the new homes haven't effect the deer population, if anything it has probably saved a few. We saw this in Idaho, MT and Wyoming with the elk moving into the lowlands, and around people, they couldn't drive the elk back to the killing fields with helicopters. It would be handy to say that the deer habitat has been ruin by the urban sprawl, but on the ground it does not show that. At this point habitat isn't the problem, we have plenty of it, just not enough deer to use it.
Last fall my wife and I took an 80 mile drive on back roads that started on the Loup Loup summit, we ended up way up Boulder cr, we saw one deer the whole trip and that was up Boulder. The closer we got to the outskirts of Winthrop the more deer we saw, and of course Winthrop like Twisp is full of deer along with the outskirts. I believe the wolves and excess other predators have destroyed most of the migration. WDFW will run the fake deer numbers until there are no deer left, river bottoms full of cougar are killing the white tail in the summer and winter. In 2010-2011 we saw the slaughter from Mazama to Black canyon, there wasn't a day when there were no fresh wolf kills, and we saw where wolves drove cougars off their kills on several occasions. It has never been the habitat, at least in the Methow. It's wolves and other predators that have ruined the deer harvest. :twocents:
These stupid new proposals and rules the commission is pushing through isn't gonna stop anybody.
At this point ,they might as well just ban all baiting for deer and elk ,year round.
Really what's the difference in feeding November vs December.
Not much.
Or archery season
What's the difference between December vs January.
Nothing that's the difference.
The way I see it .
Your for feeding.
Or against it year round.
Cause most hunting seasons go into winter months.
When are hunters gonna stand together on something.
These biologists are not your friend ,when it comes to wildlife issues.
Trust me there never wrong.
Ask one the'll tell ya.
It's too late to save the deer herds, there will never be enough wolf control to make a difference, cutting down on cougars and bears won't make much of a difference at this point, but it would make us feel better, we are pretty much saturated with wolves. Looking back at what we know now, we never had a chance to change the outcome of today, wolves were dumped on us long before they claimed the "migration" started.
I bet the pro-wolf crowd on H-W that parrot fake environmentalist talking points are proud of themselves.
Post by: logola512c on March 10, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. :twocents:
That is well evident when one drives through the valley. Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!! Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl! Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does. I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there. Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.
Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry! But boy do they think they are smart!
Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going????? Betcha the department heads are clueless!!
yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically
I spend a lot of dedicated time bear hunting in the I-90 corridor (5 bears in the last 4 years). If I could get some reliable poop about where the best public land is to hunt bears in the Methow, I'd be willing to make the trek up there to whack some bears in early August, but it's a bit of a time commitment to get boots on the ground and figure it our from scratch from Seattle.
Post by: timberfaller on March 10, 2023, 11:15:41 AM
Yes, but do you know why you get to hunt in August?? It was a trade off from banning hounds and baiting. IMHO, heat and bear hunting don't go well together. Since the ban, bear populations have exploded. As in physics, for every action, there is a re-action.
Bring back hounds and baiting and things will improve.
Post by: buckfvr on March 10, 2023, 11:47:01 AM
A buddy of mine who lives in Idaho in a unit open for hounds/bait said its not even worth hunting bear, and he was always an avid bear hunter. Ya theres bear there, mostly small runners, matures are few and far between.
Its not the available methods here in wa., rather its the lack of interest. Takes a bunch of effort including preparation for processing the carcass in the heat, but hound hunting and baiting arent exactly easy either. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 10, 2023, 02:21:09 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 10, 2023, 02:32:42 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 10, 2023, 04:24:35 PM
A grower of mine in the Methow has 200-300 deer in her orchard every day. She said that they still have around 3 feet of snow and because so much of it has compacted, the deer are able to reach pretty far up the trees are a wreaking havoc. Been working with WDFW but she said its not the smoothest or easiest thing to doBack in the day I remember the Game Department subsidizing some of the orchard owners to cut holes in the fencing to let deer in to munch on the trees. I remember one down off the Burma that had hundreds of deer in it. They sent us down there to drop pellets, it was quite a sight🤣 the deer knew exactly why we were there, they surrounded my truck to the point we couldn’t get either door open, I had to climb through a window into the back of the truck. I can’t remember the exact year, sometime in the 80,s. There was about 3 feet of snow in that area and most of the deer had evacuated from all parts north of Twisp.
Post by: boneaddict on March 11, 2023, 09:08:14 AM
Post by: timberfaller on March 11, 2023, 09:40:10 AM
But then he does his part at keeping the bear population down too! Usually bags a nice one every year with a bow. He is also not a follower of Fitkin!
I can recall the days when it was open season on the deer when they attacked the local orchards. The 68 freeze did most of the orchards in then, so its was no longer a huge problem after that. Last count I think there is only two left between Twisp and Mazama.
Post by: bigmacc on March 11, 2023, 10:05:47 AM
85 86, somewhere in there.👍 Yep, you’re right bone I think it may have been 86. I had purchased a new Ford a couple years prior(it was an 84), I remember being so pissed because when we pulled into the orchard and were surrounded, the deer were trying to get into the back of the truck to get to the pellets🤣😆. They scratched the crap out of my truck with their hooves and antlers. Mountjoy got quiet a chuckle out of it when we told him🤣🤣
Post by: mountainman on March 11, 2023, 04:05:26 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 11, 2023, 06:20:39 PM
I remember back in my youth in the 70’s sitting halfway up in the haystacks at the Big Valley ranch at dusk, watching literally 100’s of deer single filing out of the hills to nibble within inches of our feet! Fun times with my dad and brothers watching them👍Man those were the days👍 I remember when my dad would take me up to a fellas place in the north valley. We would feed the deer carrots and apples right out of our hands.
Post by: bigmacc on March 11, 2023, 07:11:09 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 11, 2023, 07:30:41 PM
Talking about local deer, I know a individual who has a small herd showing up at his place for breakfast and dinner. Feeds them a mixture of feed of COB and rabbit pellets. As long as they keep showing up, he'll keep feeding them.Yes sir, that 68 freeze was incredible! I’ve told a story or two on here when my dad and I were visiting a friend in the valley when that thing hit. If I remember right it set all kinds of records as far as weather goes :dunno: It was a “flash freeze” that came right out of the Frazier and funneled into the Methow. We used to have old 8mm film that we took of deer, livestock and pets froze solid. Horrible, the absolute worst I’ve seen, a game fella my dad knew back then said they figured half the herd perished during that deal. I’ll be darned if they didn’t bounce right back within about 5 years.
But then he does his part at keeping the bear population down too! Usually bags a nice one every year with a bow. He is also not a follower of Fitkin!
I can recall the days when it was open season on the deer when they attacked the local orchards. The 68 freeze did most of the orchards in then, so its was no longer a huge problem after that. Last count I think there is only two left between Twisp and Mazama.
Post by: hunter399 on March 11, 2023, 07:36:33 PM
I too have used rabbit pellet to feed deer.Talking about local deer, I know a individual who has a small herd showing up at his place for breakfast and dinner. Feeds them a mixture of feed of COB and rabbit pellets. As long as they keep showing up, he'll keep feeding them.Yes sir, that 68 freeze was incredible! I’ve told a story or two on here when my dad and I were visiting a friend in the valley when that thing hit. If I remember right it set all kinds of records as far as weather goes :dunno: It was a “flash freeze” that came right out of the Frazier and funneled into the Methow. We used to have old 8mm film that we took of deer, livestock and pets froze solid. Horrible, the absolute worst I’ve seen, a game fella my dad knew back then said they figured half the herd perished during that deal. I’ll be darned if they didn’t bounce right back within about 5 years.
But then he does his part at keeping the bear population down too! Usually bags a nice one every year with a bow. He is also not a follower of Fitkin!
I can recall the days when it was open season on the deer when they attacked the local orchards. The 68 freeze did most of the orchards in then, so its was no longer a huge problem after that. Last count I think there is only two left between Twisp and Mazama.
Little more spendy.
Still don't get it though.
It's ok to feed durring Nov and Dec.
Late rifle and archery .
But not ok in January.
It's strange.
Post by: bigmacc on March 12, 2023, 05:29:31 PM
I myself am not sure about the rabbit pellets, we used what the Game fellas through in the back of our trucks. I do remember not feeding late into the winter( late January and beyond ). I remember dropping truckloads in spots from Twisp going as far north as our rigs would get us. My family back in those days knew of a few areas even the game guys didn’t know of(pre 60,s), in fact they would have bios, wardens, college folks etc talk with my great grandparents, my dad and other family members. My dad went on many rides involving numerous bios and game department folks checking staging areas and corridors that were new to them at the time. I remember my great grandma taking a few game department guys into a corridor out of BC that meshes with 3 or 4 that move east out of the Pasayten. They pretty much laughed at her when she said where this place was. She enjoyed hiking in there in the spring to watch the reverse migration, full of all the babies. Her favorite time of year and an area at that time only a very few knew of. She would pack in there and stay for days by herself, watching literally thousands of deer stroll by, many with all their fawns moving back up to the summer range. This was an area the department was curious if back then. We would dump pellets back in November and December in an area that was 3-4 thousand feet less in elevation when the weather looked like it may take a toll. That’s all I’ll say. Feeding the deer in the Methow used to be done in many ways, shapes and forms I guess you could say and you know what, they did just fine, THE largest migrating mule deer herd around at one time. Shameful, what this state has let happen to them, just shameful.I too have used rabbit pellet to feed deer.Talking about local deer, I know a individual who has a small herd showing up at his place for breakfast and dinner. Feeds them a mixture of feed of COB and rabbit pellets. As long as they keep showing up, he'll keep feeding them.Yes sir, that 68 freeze was incredible! I’ve told a story or two on here when my dad and I were visiting a friend in the valley when that thing hit. If I remember right it set all kinds of records as far as weather goes :dunno: It was a “flash freeze” that came right out of the Frazier and funneled into the Methow. We used to have old 8mm film that we took of deer, livestock and pets froze solid. Horrible, the absolute worst I’ve seen, a game fella my dad knew back then said they figured half the herd perished during that deal. I’ll be darned if they didn’t bounce right back within about 5 years.
But then he does his part at keeping the bear population down too! Usually bags a nice one every year with a bow. He is also not a follower of Fitkin!
I can recall the days when it was open season on the deer when they attacked the local orchards. The 68 freeze did most of the orchards in then, so its was no longer a huge problem after that. Last count I think there is only two left between Twisp and Mazama.
Little more spendy.
Still don't get it though.
It's ok to feed durring Nov and Dec.
Late rifle and archery .
But not ok in January.
It's strange.
Post by: Twispriver on March 12, 2023, 06:12:30 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on March 12, 2023, 06:25:19 PM
Post by: hunter399 on March 12, 2023, 07:53:12 PM
Hunter399 - As I understand it, what the biologists are saying is that if you are going to feed the deer in January you should start in October. Its the effect of the sudden change in diet that does them harm.I understand that part.
But it's ok to dump a 50lb bag wherever in November.
For hunting purposes.
But not ok in January.
It's a slippery slopes to take away baiting.
Is what I'm suggesting.
Post by: Twispriver on March 13, 2023, 08:40:57 AM
Post by: hunter399 on March 13, 2023, 10:31:37 AM
The bait you drop during the season doesn't ever comprise the deer's entire diet. What you feed in January just might.I think we are heading down that road.
Where all baiting for deer or elk ,year round.
Will go bye bye .
Winter feeding issues.
Along with disease issues.
Slippery slopes.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 13, 2023, 10:38:22 AM
Post by: bigmacc on March 13, 2023, 12:46:42 PM
If CWD raises it's head here then we might have a problem. This year the deer are hanging lower in the valley due to the above average snow remaining on the ground. If the deer are seeking comfort by being closer to the human population I am fine with that. But to listen to the bio's stating we don't have predator issue is total BS. Everyone knows it's a problem.:yeah:, and I’ll add, it’s the number one issue concerning the well-being of this herd, BAR NONE.
Sorry Sky, I’m agreeing with you on all points, especially concerning predators 👍
Post by: boneaddict on March 20, 2023, 06:30:06 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v47/boneaddict/feed.tif)
Post by: hunter399 on March 20, 2023, 07:00:49 PM
Seen many many deer out eating in every field that the snow has melted.
Eating whatever grows in those fields.
Some deer I drove past,went fishing 6 hours,came back down the road. Same deer standing there that was there 6 HR prior.
Post by: 7mmfan on March 20, 2023, 07:12:32 PM
Have those of you living in the Valley been able to see any sign of significant die off?
Post by: hunter399 on March 20, 2023, 07:14:51 PM
The few webcams in the valley are beginning to show open ground. There's at least some browse to eat. Another few 45-50 degree days and we should start seeing a few patches of green for them to eat.I'm in NE.
Have those of you living in the Valley been able to see any significant sign of significant die off?
But there is some green up starting.
Post by: bigmacc on March 20, 2023, 07:59:14 PM
The few webcams in the valley are beginning to show open ground. There's at least some browse to eat. Another few 45-50 degree days and we should start seeing a few patches of green for them to eat.Will probably start finding carcasses in areas in the next month or so. I remember in the mid 90,s after all that snow melted down there were a couple areas where we found over a couple dozen in one of the spots and over 30 in another area. We found them in April, the two areas we found them was obvious they had hunkered in and we’re trying to wait it out and starved. Almost like that time an old cowboy friend of mine and his wife were going to pick up some fishermen in the Pasayten, they took a shortcut skirting a box canyon and seen hundreds of carcasses (they figured over 150) scattered all around the sides, mostly under trees and in thickets. They figured the deer got trapped in there during a storm and were trying to wait it out, probably kept snowing and piling up and they never made it out, probably getting buried by 15 or 20 feet of snow eventually. He said it was the most eerie thing he had ever witnessed, he said he never told anyone exactly where this spot was, he almost felt it was sacred. This was back in the 70,s.
Have those of you living in the Valley been able to see any significant sign of significant die off?
Post by: wolfbait on March 21, 2023, 10:18:42 PM
The few webcams in the valley are beginning to show open ground. There's at least some browse to eat. Another few 45-50 degree days and we should start seeing a few patches of green for them to eat.
Have those of you living in the Valley been able to see any sign of significant die off?
Lower elevation southern slopes are baring off, and the deer are in the new green, hard to tell at this point on winter kill, there really weren't too many left to start with. From what I have seen the fawn count is horrible, out of 53 head that have moved in on us there are 6 fawns, a split between old Doe's and younger ones, plus three young bucks. Some of these deer moved up here from town, they go back and forth depending on the predators.
Some wolves came through here about three weeks ago and killed 2 that we found, prey must be getting harder to come by as they had them cleaned up fairly well by morning, didn't leave much of anything for the coyotes and birds.
Back in the 70's we rode in along the base of Pole Pick MT, and we counted 60 some deer piled up in the bottom where a slide took a bunch out, and this year was a bad year for slides, with several layers.
Talking about local deer, I know a individual who has a small herd showing up at his place for breakfast and dinner. Feeds them a mixture of feed of COB and rabbit pellets. As long as they keep showing up, he'll keep feeding them.Yes sir, that 68 freeze was incredible! I’ve told a story or two on here when my dad and I were visiting a friend in the valley when that thing hit. If I remember right it set all kinds of records as far as weather goes :dunno: It was a “flash freeze” that came right out of the Frazier and funneled into the Methow. We used to have old 8mm film that we took of deer, livestock and pets froze solid. Horrible, the absolute worst I’ve seen, a game fella my dad knew back then said they figured half the herd perished during that deal. I’ll be darned if they didn’t bounce right back within about 5 years.
But then he does his part at keeping the bear population down too! Usually bags a nice one every year with a bow. He is also not a follower of Fitkin!
I can recall the days when it was open season on the deer when they attacked the local orchards. The 68 freeze did most of the orchards in then, so its was no longer a huge problem after that. Last count I think there is only two left between Twisp and Mazama.
@timberfaller-Quite a few people in the Methow have been feeding the deer this winter, feed stores have made extra this year selling dry cob, alfalfa pellets, goat feed and alfalfa mix hay for deer feed. It's good to see that there are people who care and don't follow the line of BS pushed by some.
Bigmacc-We had the 8mm film also of the deer herds in the fifties and and 60's etc., my sister had it converted to DVD's, shows the huge herds in the springtime, it was no big deal back then to see two/three hundred head a day. And In the winter, you could count 150 head from Twisp to where the timber starts going over the Loup, those were the days of the Game Department-Now you are lucky to count 5, we saw one doe today till we hit Twisp. It is a very sad picture now, compared to what it once was. It will never come close to the old days with those running this state and WDFW.
1968 was the winter that the neighbors chickens all fell out of his trees when it warmed up, he had around a 100 head of banty's.
Post by: timberfaller on March 22, 2023, 08:43:58 AM
Post by: bigmacc on March 23, 2023, 05:02:06 PM
Yep that 68 winter was the worst I’ve ever seen, not so much for snow but for that “freeze” that came in, just brutal. You talk of chickens falling out of trees. I remember that also, along with engine blocks freezing and cracking and seeing livestock froze, some still upright leaning against buildings or trees. A friend up in the north valley had pictures and film of coyotes running down deer that would fall through the crust of ice and snow that was about 12 to 20 inches deep if I remember right, the yotes ran them down like they were running on concrete. I remember deer inside of barns up around 8mile that ranchers would give access, some even put heaters inside. A friend of my dads had a picture of about 12 deer or so in his barn with their legs shredded from walking through the ice, he would go in a feed them daily, they stayed in or around his barn for weeks.The few webcams in the valley are beginning to show open ground. There's at least some browse to eat. Another few 45-50 degree days and we should start seeing a few patches of green for them to eat.
Have those of you living in the Valley been able to see any sign of significant die off?
Lower elevation southern slopes are baring off, and the deer are in the new green, hard to tell at this point on winter kill, there really weren't too many left to start with. From what I have seen the fawn count is horrible, out of 53 head that have moved in on us there are 6 fawns, a split between old Doe's and younger ones, plus three young bucks. Some of these deer moved up here from town, they go back and forth depending on the predators.
Some wolves came through here about three weeks ago and killed 2 that we found, prey must be getting harder to come by as they had them cleaned up fairly well by morning, didn't leave much of anything for the coyotes and birds.
Back in the 70's we rode in along the base of Pole Pick MT, and we counted 60 some deer piled up in the bottom where a slide took a bunch out, and this year was a bad year for slides, with several layers.Talking about local deer, I know a individual who has a small herd showing up at his place for breakfast and dinner. Feeds them a mixture of feed of COB and rabbit pellets. As long as they keep showing up, he'll keep feeding them.Yes sir, that 68 freeze was incredible! I’ve told a story or two on here when my dad and I were visiting a friend in the valley when that thing hit. If I remember right it set all kinds of records as far as weather goes :dunno: It was a “flash freeze” that came right out of the Frazier and funneled into the Methow. We used to have old 8mm film that we took of deer, livestock and pets froze solid. Horrible, the absolute worst I’ve seen, a game fella my dad knew back then said they figured half the herd perished during that deal. I’ll be darned if they didn’t bounce right back within about 5 years.
But then he does his part at keeping the bear population down too! Usually bags a nice one every year with a bow. He is also not a follower of Fitkin!
I can recall the days when it was open season on the deer when they attacked the local orchards. The 68 freeze did most of the orchards in then, so its was no longer a huge problem after that. Last count I think there is only two left between Twisp and Mazama.
@timberfaller-Quite a few people in the Methow have been feeding the deer this winter, feed stores have made extra this year selling dry cob, alfalfa pellets, goat feed and alfalfa mix hay for deer feed. It's good to see that there are people who care and don't follow the line of BS pushed by some.
Bigmacc-We had the 8mm film also of the deer herds in the fifties and and 60's etc., my sister had it converted to DVD's, shows the huge herds in the springtime, it was no big deal back then to see two/three hundred head a day. And In the winter, you could count 150 head from Twisp to where the timber starts going over the Loup, those were the days of the Game Department-Now you are lucky to count 5, we saw one doe today till we hit Twisp. It is a very sad picture now, compared to what it once was. It will never come close to the old days with those running this state and WDFW.
1968 was the winter that the neighbors chickens all fell out of his trees when it warmed up, he had around a 100 head of banty's.
Man, I wish we would have done something with all our film. Some was salvageable some was not.
Post by: bearpaw on March 23, 2023, 05:37:44 PM
Post by: Stein on March 23, 2023, 06:25:26 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 23, 2023, 06:54:14 PM
This silly topic makes me laugh, the state of Idaho is feeding deer and elk all over the state to keep them alive! They started paying my neighbor to feed hay (what he feeds his cows) every afternoon about three weeks ago. These elk are living in the open field all day waiting for hay a short distance from my house. I don't see any falling over dead yet!Yep👍