Post by: grade-creek-rd on April 14, 2023, 08:19:45 PM
Grade
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 14, 2023, 09:39:52 PM
Post by: Parkern on April 15, 2023, 06:22:26 PM
Looks like they did away with both Lake Chelan North and South goat opportunities this year...not sure exactly why, as both units are big and the goat population is stable...I am sure it has nothing to do with the Navarre wolf pack or that Slide Ridge is about to get a wolf pack now that private trail cams have shown wolves to be there (at the same time as the Navarre Pack across the lake...which means it can't be the Navarre Pack, which a WDFW staffer tried to say that it was a wolf that swam the lake and the Navarre Pack's home range included the south shore...I laughed, and laughed...and then cried as they were serious).Wolves do swim the lake, but probably another pack also. Im sure its a over reaction from the one survey done a year. Usually on a windy day, from a boat... Based on how much our tags cost, they should be able to afford doing actual surveys multiple times a year. But that doesn't fit the agenda!! Its strange the over reaction to close all the opportunities, especially since they still have 2 north shore ram tags, most of those sheep are cougar *censored*... That tag actual should go down to one for a couple years. But the WDFW has no idea whats going on, and actually doesn't care!
Grade
Post by: Jpmiller on April 15, 2023, 06:54:34 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 15, 2023, 09:13:06 PM
Don't we have the largest population of goats in the lower 48?Probably up there at least.
And you can’t really survey those goats from a boat unless you’re doing it in the winter I don’t think.
Post by: cem3434 on April 15, 2023, 09:50:32 PM
Furthermore, they were going to kill them all since they were a non native nuisance in the Olympics so why not give hunters a few extra tags?
Post by: Jpmiller on April 15, 2023, 10:08:41 PM
They transplant over 300 goats from the Olympics to the North Cascades. Where are the extra tags for the goats in those areas? Even if they only give out 1 tag per 100 goats, it sounds like we are also being shorted at least 3 more tags.
Furthermore, they were going to kill them all since they were a non native nuisance in the Olympics so why not give hunters a few extra tags?
In fairness I thought I remember them putting slot of those goats inside the park where they, in theory,, wouldn't be huntable. But I thought the Olympic population wouldn't be huntable too until they were.
Post by: Parkern on April 16, 2023, 09:02:00 PM
Thats when they conduct the survey, but i question the guys doing it and their results. We pay plenty of money for them to do multiple surveys a year!!Don't we have the largest population of goats in the lower 48?Probably up there at least.
And you can’t really survey those goats from a boat unless you’re doing it in the winter I don’t think.
The WDFW is so lazy and incoherent they have no idea what's actually going on in our units. OR listen to hunters... We are screwed until we get a new governor.
Post by: Born2late on April 16, 2023, 09:28:47 PM
They transplant over 300 goats from the Olympics to the North Cascades. Where are the extra tags for the goats in those areas? Even if they only give out 1 tag per 100 goats, it sounds like we are also being shorted at least 3 more tags.I heard that the majority of the ones that got transplanted died.
Furthermore, they were going to kill them all since they were a non native nuisance in the Olympics so why not give hunters a few extra tags?
Post by: cem3434 on April 17, 2023, 07:02:49 AM
Post by: Born2late on April 17, 2023, 07:15:33 AM
Interesting, I had not heard that and thought they were doing okay. Do you know the cause?The guy I talked to said they could tell when they died by the radio collars and fish and game wouldn’t hike in right away to see the cause so I don’t think they know on a lot of them.He was frustrated because had they went in right away they would have had good data on what caused it and maybe been able to apply that in the future.
Post by: grade-creek-rd on April 17, 2023, 10:15:48 AM
Grade
Post by: Stein on April 17, 2023, 10:34:57 AM
You hit the reason I stopped hunting WA myself 4 or 5 years ago. It's on the decline, there is absolutely zero the state is doing to fix it and now we have the activist commission questioning hunting itself. There was no reason to keep throwing money at a sinking ship, it will be worse every year until it's gone.
Post by: Mtnwalker on April 17, 2023, 10:46:35 AM
Post by: OltHunter on April 17, 2023, 11:18:03 AM
Post by: Stein on April 17, 2023, 11:33:30 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/about/regulations/filings/2023/wsr-23-05-068.pdf
Post by: Stein on April 17, 2023, 11:36:29 AM
Quote
2. A reduction of the North Lake Chelan and South Lake Chelan hunts from one permit each to
zero permits each. This proposed change will remove the Boulder River North hunt from the
WAC table until future conditions permit a hunt opportunity.
Sounds like they don't agree on the health of the population.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-03/bighorn-sheep-moose-and-mountain-goat-summary-sheet.pdf
Post by: jstone on April 17, 2023, 11:43:48 AM
Post by: boneaddict on April 17, 2023, 11:48:30 AM
Post by: Stein on April 17, 2023, 11:53:35 AM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on April 17, 2023, 12:26:34 PM
Grade
Post by: Stein on April 17, 2023, 01:48:53 PM
Snow geese target population is 120k, recent estimates are near 800k and rising and they chose to not increase limits. Montana's regular season limit is double ours and their conservation season is no daily or bag limit.
Same story with pinks, limit 2 when 4 million are projected to return.
You could probably find 100 other examples.
Post by: jackelope on April 17, 2023, 01:50:52 PM
What are the facts? If you have one tag, then natives have equal tags, then gov tag can hunt and then a raffle tag, and how about any incentive tags. So one tag actually equals how many hunts? I don’t know the facts, does anyone?
Gov and auction tags haven't been able to hunt Chelan for at least a year or 2.
Post by: cem3434 on April 17, 2023, 05:52:07 PM
Same thing they did with Harlequin, their own science said we could shoot 3-5% of the population annually and instead of implementing to that, they chose 0%.
Snow geese target population is 120k, recent estimates are near 800k and rising and they chose to not increase limits. Montana's regular season limit is double ours and their conservation season is no daily or bag limit.
Same story with pinks, limit 2 when 4 million are projected to return.
You could probably find 100 other examples.
It's simply death by 1000 cuts at this point. WDFW keeps slowly taking away opportunities from all user groups and tell us its because their "science" supports these decisions. Let's face it, WDFW has turned into the biggest threat to taking away any remaining future opportunities from hunters and fishermen.
Post by: Quackaddict on April 17, 2023, 07:20:54 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on April 17, 2023, 08:48:26 PM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on April 18, 2023, 10:27:29 AM
Grade
Post by: boneaddict on April 18, 2023, 11:49:39 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 18, 2023, 12:17:38 PM
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on April 18, 2023, 02:47:46 PM
Pretty sure the lady of the lake doesn’t feed the goats not many tourists during the winter maybe it was the snow that brought them down to meet the healthy cougars. I asked 1 of the captains today if he has seen them and he hasn’t for quite awhile.As I understand it goats don’t really migrate, they find high wind blown ridges and winter over above everything else
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Romulus1297 on April 18, 2023, 03:18:26 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 18, 2023, 08:29:25 PM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on April 19, 2023, 01:42:06 PM
Grade
Post by: MerriamMagician on April 26, 2023, 01:15:40 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on April 26, 2023, 01:45:33 PM
Sad to see another opportunity taken away. I agree with most comments on this thread that we are slowly losing more and more hunts every year. It wasn't that long ago they took away the blazed ridge goat hunt from us. It seems that many of us have already forgotten about that unit. There is still a huge population of goats in the unit and absolutely no scientific reason why it cannot support multiple tags on an annual basis. All part of their master plan...
I go up and visit those goats every year and curse losing the tag. Never did understand why they closed it.
Post by: millerwheeler on April 26, 2023, 08:03:38 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on May 02, 2023, 09:37:03 PM
Couple years ago I got to help another member on his hunt late in the season and was no easy hunt , one of the greatest hunting memories I have . Sad to see that hunt gone after so many years of trying . It’s not a hunt for anyone who thinks it’s easy , prayed on a cliff edge with 3 grown men as we watched a crazy landslide happen right in front of us it was no joke but so amazing.going going gone :bash: :bash:
Post by: mburrows on May 03, 2023, 04:38:09 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 03, 2023, 06:53:10 AM
Sad to see another opportunity taken away. I agree with most comments on this thread that we are slowly losing more and more hunts every year. It wasn't that long ago they took away the blazed ridge goat hunt from us. It seems that many of us have already forgotten about that unit. There is still a huge population of goats in the unit and absolutely no scientific reason why it cannot support multiple tags on an annual basis. All part of their master plan...
:yeah:
From my experience the goat population is actually better on blazed than some of the other open units. There is also a very healthy and stable population between I90 and hwy 2 that could support a couple tags. ( Not including anything around Stewart or the Enchantments)
Goat management in Washington makes no sense to me..
Post by: GOcougsHunter on May 03, 2023, 08:32:09 AM
Sad to see another opportunity taken away. I agree with most comments on this thread that we are slowly losing more and more hunts every year. It wasn't that long ago they took away the blazed ridge goat hunt from us. It seems that many of us have already forgotten about that unit. There is still a huge population of goats in the unit and absolutely no scientific reason why it cannot support multiple tags on an annual basis. All part of their master plan...
:yeah:
From my experience the goat population is actually better on blazed than some of the other open units. There is also a very healthy and stable population between I90 and hwy 2 that could support a couple tags. ( Not including anything around Stewart or the Enchantments)
Goat management in Washington makes no sense to me..
Far too conservative in season setting. I do trust the bios, but, c'mon...
Post by: jstone on May 03, 2023, 09:10:51 AM
Post by: millerwheeler on May 05, 2023, 08:33:08 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 05, 2023, 08:56:01 PM
Post by: shanevg on May 09, 2023, 11:32:48 AM
Another era.
Another era largely responsible for our crappy mountain goat numbers today. You can't manage mountain goats the same way you manage deer/elk/etc which was a mistake our state made for decades before trying to correct the issue.
Our issue today is that literally every single goat population in our state is decreasing and I don't think WDFW has any idea why. My personal opinion - climate change (specifically warmer weather pushing them to spend more time in timber) is leading to higher than normal predation. Of course higher than normal predation is drastically exacerbated by extremely high predator numbers (cougars, wolves, coyotes all having negative impact.) It seems to me there may be some disease issue at play. I've been seeing very low kid recruitment in recent years (as in last 3-4 years relative to the 2x decades before that I spent watching goats.)
Unfortunately goats receive a low priority in research funding with our state so I honestly don't think WDFW has any real idea how bad (or not) things actually are other than low helicopter counts in recent years (which has been negatively impacted by extremely warm summers pushing goats out of traditional visible habitat.) Also, the relocation from Olympic National Park to the Cascades was all planned 4-5 years ago before the established herds (think Goat Rocks, Baker Wilderness, Boulder River, Naches, etc.) started really taking a downward trend. As such those 300+ goats were relocated to smaller, more isolated herds in the cascades in hopes of those herds starting to grow. In hindsight, it should have been a goal to bolster the established herds and help promote stronger genetic diversity in those herds.
(One other side note, recent research done by WWU has shown extremely low genetic diversity in almost all goat herds in our state. Goats are not crossing major highways (I90 and I2 being the big contributors, but even smaller highways like Hwy 20 being a contributor as well.) Additionally goats from individual herds are showing relatively little cross breeding with other herds (Baker/Boulder River herds, Goat Rocks/Naches herds/etc. Even Canadian goats like Cathedral Park north of Pasayten and Pasayten goats are not travelling back and forth.) Historic data suggests young males relatively frequently moved from one herd to another helping to bolster genetic diversity and that does not seem to be happening now. I don't know how this plays into declining goat numbers or what specifically has changed recently as opposed to the past in this regard but it's certainly something worth noting as genetic diversity has been shown to be integral to long term herd health in mountain goats. See Fest-Bianchet research for more info on that. It's pretty fascinating stuff.)
And that just brings up the entire issue with the ONP relocation. Eliminating that herd is terrible for our goats in WA state. The ONP herd was the only herd doing well in our entire state and relocating half of that herd was a great idea. But maintaining the remaining half as a "nursery herd" or sorts to help augment the other goats in our state would have been a far better solution than complete eradication. :(
I think there's one thing everyone can agree on which is the desire to see healthy herds here in our state. Hopefully the downward trends of our established herds can serve as a wake up call to WDFW bios to get a better grasp on what's going on so we can continue to promote healthy and robust goat populations throughout the suitable terrain in WA state.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 09, 2023, 12:07:21 PM
Excellent over view Shane, thank you. I wish you were the head Goat guy at wdfw, if they had one.Another era.
Another era largely responsible for our crappy mountain goat numbers today. You can't manage mountain goats the same way you manage deer/elk/etc which was a mistake our state made for decades before trying to correct the issue.
Our issue today is that literally every single goat population in our state is decreasing and I don't think WDFW has any idea why. My personal opinion - climate change (specifically warmer weather pushing them to spend more time in timber) is leading to higher than normal predation. Of course higher than normal predation is drastically exacerbated by extremely high predator numbers (cougars, wolves, coyotes all having negative impact.) It seems to me there may be some disease issue at play. I've been seeing very low kid recruitment in recent years (as in last 3-4 years relative to the 2x decades before that I spent watching goats.)
Unfortunately goats receive a low priority in research funding with our state so I honestly don't think WDFW has any real idea how bad (or not) things actually are other than low helicopter counts in recent years (which has been negatively impacted by extremely warm summers pushing goats out of traditional visible habitat.) Also, the relocation from Olympic National Park to the Cascades was all planned 4-5 years ago before the established herds (think Goat Rocks, Baker Wilderness, Boulder River, Naches, etc.) started really taking a downward trend. As such those 300+ goats were relocated to smaller, more isolated herds in the cascades in hopes of those herds starting to grow. In hindsight, it should have been a goal to bolster the established herds and help promote stronger genetic diversity in those herds.
(One other side note, recent research done by WWU has shown extremely low genetic diversity in almost all goat herds in our state. Goats are not crossing major highways (I90 and I2 being the big contributors, but even smaller highways like Hwy 20 being a contributor as well.) Additionally goats from individual herds are showing relatively little cross breeding with other herds (Baker/Boulder River herds, Goat Rocks/Naches herds/etc. Even Canadian goats like Cathedral Park north of Pasayten and Pasayten goats are not travelling back and forth.) Historic data suggests young males relatively frequently moved from one herd to another helping to bolster genetic diversity and that does not seem to be happening now. I don't know how this plays into declining goat numbers or what specifically has changed recently as opposed to the past in this regard but it's certainly something worth noting as genetic diversity has been shown to be integral to long term herd health in mountain goats. See Fest-Bianchet research for more info on that. It's pretty fascinating stuff.)
And that just brings up the entire issue with the ONP relocation. Eliminating that herd is terrible for our goats in WA state. The ONP herd was the only herd doing well in our entire state and relocating half of that herd was a great idea. But maintaining the remaining half as a "nursery herd" or sorts to help augment the other goats in our state would have been a far better solution than complete eradication. :(
I think there's one thing everyone can agree on which is the desire to see healthy herds here in our state. Hopefully the downward trends of our established herds can serve as a wake up call to WDFW bios to get a better grasp on what's going on so we can continue to promote healthy and robust goat populations throughout the suitable terrain in WA state.
Post by: hunterednate on May 09, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Another era.
Another era largely responsible for our crappy mountain goat numbers today. You can't manage mountain goats the same way you manage deer/elk/etc which was a mistake our state made for decades before trying to correct the issue.
Our issue today is that literally every single goat population in our state is decreasing and I don't think WDFW has any idea why. My personal opinion - climate change (specifically warmer weather pushing them to spend more time in timber) is leading to higher than normal predation. Of course higher than normal predation is drastically exacerbated by extremely high predator numbers (cougars, wolves, coyotes all having negative impact.) It seems to me there may be some disease issue at play. I've been seeing very low kid recruitment in recent years (as in last 3-4 years relative to the 2x decades before that I spent watching goats.)
Unfortunately goats receive a low priority in research funding with our state so I honestly don't think WDFW has any real idea how bad (or not) things actually are other than low helicopter counts in recent years (which has been negatively impacted by extremely warm summers pushing goats out of traditional visible habitat.) Also, the relocation from Olympic National Park to the Cascades was all planned 4-5 years ago before the established herds (think Goat Rocks, Baker Wilderness, Boulder River, Naches, etc.) started really taking a downward trend. As such those 300+ goats were relocated to smaller, more isolated herds in the cascades in hopes of those herds starting to grow. In hindsight, it should have been a goal to bolster the established herds and help promote stronger genetic diversity in those herds.
(One other side note, recent research done by WWU has shown extremely low genetic diversity in almost all goat herds in our state. Goats are not crossing major highways (I90 and I2 being the big contributors, but even smaller highways like Hwy 20 being a contributor as well.) Additionally goats from individual herds are showing relatively little cross breeding with other herds (Baker/Boulder River herds, Goat Rocks/Naches herds/etc. Even Canadian goats like Cathedral Park north of Pasayten and Pasayten goats are not travelling back and forth.) Historic data suggests young males relatively frequently moved from one herd to another helping to bolster genetic diversity and that does not seem to be happening now. I don't know how this plays into declining goat numbers or what specifically has changed recently as opposed to the past in this regard but it's certainly something worth noting as genetic diversity has been shown to be integral to long term herd health in mountain goats. See Fest-Bianchet research for more info on that. It's pretty fascinating stuff.)
And that just brings up the entire issue with the ONP relocation. Eliminating that herd is terrible for our goats in WA state. The ONP herd was the only herd doing well in our entire state and relocating half of that herd was a great idea. But maintaining the remaining half as a "nursery herd" or sorts to help augment the other goats in our state would have been a far better solution than complete eradication. :(
I think there's one thing everyone can agree on which is the desire to see healthy herds here in our state. Hopefully the downward trends of our established herds can serve as a wake up call to WDFW bios to get a better grasp on what's going on so we can continue to promote healthy and robust goat populations throughout the suitable terrain in WA state.
100% agree with this. The outstanding book A Beast the Color of Winter by Douglas Chadwick opened my eyes on mountain goat conservation, big time. Must read for anyone who cares about goats and goat management.
Post by: GOcougsHunter on May 09, 2023, 12:21:46 PM
Post by: shanevg on May 10, 2023, 12:29:10 PM
https://cenv.wwu.edu/speaker-series/mountain-goat-conservation-and-restoration-washington-state
It was also mentioned that A Beast the Color of Winter by Douglas Chadwick is a great book about goats. (Also The Wolverine Way and True Grizz by Chadwick are great reads.)
If you really want to dive deep in the intricacies of mountain goat conservation, then I'd recommend reading Mountain Goats: Ecology, Behavior, and Conservation of an Alpine Ungulate by Marco Festa-Bianchet. It's a dense read but really dives into the complications of the low fecundity of mountain goats (relative to other ungulate species) and why mountain goats are so sensitive to overharvest and have such major issues with low genetic diversity. I don't know for a fact, but I can surmise that a lot (if not all) of WA's approach to mountain goat management over the last decade plus has been based off the research from that book.
Post by: jackelope on May 10, 2023, 01:24:34 PM
I'm far from a goat guy but figured why not. Once you hunt these animals, they get in your blood. For some people like Shane, they're in your blood long before you hunt them.
This is the email I sent:
Mr Moore-
Hope you don't mind me dropping you a line. I think you're the right guy to talk to but I'm not positive of that. If you're not the guy, I apologize. Had some questions on the drastic reduction in the mountain goat permit allocation, specifically for the Goat Rocks West unit and the complete elimination of the Chelan unit hunts. Can you share some insight as to why the number of permits dropped so significantly? I guess I always thought that we had strong goat populations here. I was fortunate to draw a Goat Rocks permit in 2017 when it was still all one unit. Saw a bunch of goats both scouting and hunting. Probably saw 150 goats in one day in Cispus Basin during that summer while scouting. It's hard to believe we've dropped so significantly in such a short time.
Thank you so much for your time.
Josh
===============
His response:
Hi Josh,
Our mountain goat populations have declined significantly recently and we are reducing permits is those areas. A good place to find information on this is our status and trend report: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/02367 . We’ve done some preliminary investigations to evaluate survival of adult from 2000 – 2020 and we can definitely say it has not be as good during the later portions of the 2010’s and early 2020 as compared to 2000 - 2017. You likely hunted the goat rocks when the population was at its peak, and we are about half of that population now. We are hoping to conduct more monitoring in the Goat Rocks and Lake Chelan during the next few years.
Respectfully,
=================
Wow...crazy to think that the goat herd in the Goat Rocks has declined that much in 6 years. Any ideas where the goats are going? I assume predators are playing a big part in their decline. The only other tracks I saw on the ridge I killed my billy on were lion tracks. Are we having any respiratory disease issue with our goats? I know it's not as prolific as with the sheep, but I've heard they're affected to a degree as well.
Thanks for your time.
Josh
==================
Hi Josh,
I would not assume predators. We are seeing declines in most of our populations and our preliminary research is correlating drought summers followed by more severe winters as a potential problem.
Thanks,
================
Is it accurate that a capture operation will happen in the Goat Rocks during what would normally be hunting season? Is the timing of that because of cooler weather not stressing the animals out as much? What's the point of the capture operation?
Thanks again.
Josh
===============
Hi Josh,
Being a hunter myself I definitely understand your concerns on reduced opportunity and especially when successfully acquiring a once in a lifetime tag. I’m more than happy to discuss these issues on the phone. I often find a phone conversation as a better option by providing a more dynamic platform when discussing issues that have plenty of intricate details involved. Anyhow, feel free to call since discussions with hunters are important and valued by the Department. The communication between the Department and our hunting population has been horrible in the past, I believe it is getting better, but overall direct one-on-one conversations has always been the best method.
Respectfully,
Will
William Moore
Ungulate Specialist
Washington Dept. of Fish & Wildlife
1130 W University Way
Ellensburg, WA 98926
(509) 306-8969
=========================
I didn't have time to call him at the time, so I didn't. His info is all there if anyone does want to call him.
:dunno:
Post by: Ridgerunner on May 10, 2023, 02:12:58 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 10, 2023, 03:23:31 PM
I'm also a firm believer that wdfw has poor math silks as well. Under counting herd's seems to be a common issue. I'm not a north cascades guy but IMO central Cascade goats appear in similar numbers throughout my travels as they did 20-30 year's ago. :twocents:
Post by: actionshooter on May 10, 2023, 10:20:28 PM
It baffles me that the apparent decline has "apparently" been known for years yet they choose to mostly eradicate the largest population in the state with the ONP debacle. Instead of taking greater care to work in conjunction with NP officials and relocate every goat they could get there hands on. Even if it took a couple summers...
I'm also a firm believer that wdfw has poor math silks as well. Under counting herd's seems to be a common issue. I'm not a north cascades guy but IMO central Cascade goats appear in similar numbers throughout my travels as they did 20-30 year's ago. :twocents:
From what I understand, the mortality rate of the goats that did get relocated was pretty high and after the initial capture... they got pretty smart and were hard to catch. I believe they did release over 300 into the cascades, but I'm not sure what the survival rate was.
Post by: shanevg on May 10, 2023, 11:20:03 PM
It baffles me that the apparent decline has "apparently" been known for years yet they choose to mostly eradicate the largest population in the state with the ONP debacle. Instead of taking greater care to work in conjunction with NP officials and relocate every goat they could get there hands on. Even if it took a couple summers...
I'm also a firm believer that wdfw has poor math silks as well. Under counting herd's seems to be a common issue. I'm not a north cascades guy but IMO central Cascade goats appear in similar numbers throughout my travels as they did 20-30 year's ago. :twocents:
From what I understand, the mortality rate of the goats that did get relocated was pretty high and after the initial capture... they got pretty smart and were hard to catch. I believe they did release over 300 into the cascades, but I'm not sure what the survival rate was.
I heard survival rate was under 50%. :'(
Post by: grade-creek-rd on May 11, 2023, 02:47:41 PM
I am not bashing on the bio...in fact, I applaud him for his answers and asks for a phone call instead of an email so it can't be put on a forum like this one and his bosses fire him. smart dude right there!
Grade
Post by: Falcon on May 12, 2023, 04:27:43 PM
The WDFW bio gave one of the most political answers I have ever heard, and I am stealing it for my day job! "feel free to call since discussions with hunters are important and valued by the Department. The communication between the Department and our hunting population has been horrible in the past, I believe it is getting better, but overall direct one-on-one conversations has always been the best method."...that means, call me and I will tell you in person, over the phone, with no paper trail to bite me is the ass, but ya, we are reducing numbers of permits to slowly do away with hunting. He even contradicts himself saying how from 2010-2020 the goat population was dropping but then says in 2017 it was at its peak...uh, if its dropping then its past its peak.
I am not bashing on the bio...in fact, I applaud him for his answers and asks for a phone call instead of an email so it can't be put on a forum like this one and his bosses fire him. smart dude right there!
Grade
but ya, we are reducing numbers of permits to slowly do away with hunting.
Based on our current commission, I don't doubt this for a second. I logged on and watched a couple of their live sessions and I am dumb founded how this commission is putting any value on keeping hunting a lawful act. The sheep, moose and goat hunts will be the first to go, and the rest will be death by a 1000 cuts. Sadly, I don't see a conservative or even moderate politician who will be able to run against Bob Ferguson for the Governor's race. You don't like Jay Inslee.........Wait until he is replaced by someone much worse :yike:
Post by: actionshooter on May 12, 2023, 09:51:43 PM
I heard even lower, but don't want to repeat the number because it wasn't 1st hand info...It baffles me that the apparent decline has "apparently" been known for years yet they choose to mostly eradicate the largest population in the state with the ONP debacle. Instead of taking greater care to work in conjunction with NP officials and relocate every goat they could get there hands on. Even if it took a couple summers...
I'm also a firm believer that wdfw has poor math silks as well. Under counting herd's seems to be a common issue. I'm not a north cascades guy but IMO central Cascade goats appear in similar numbers throughout my travels as they did 20-30 year's ago. :twocents:
From what I understand, the mortality rate of the goats that did get relocated was pretty high and after the initial capture... they got pretty smart and were hard to catch. I believe they did release over 300 into the cascades, but I'm not sure what the survival rate was.
I heard survival rate was under 50%. :'(
Post by: teanawayslayer on May 13, 2023, 07:25:21 AM
I didn’t think it could get any worse than inslee!The WDFW bio gave one of the most political answers I have ever heard, and I am stealing it for my day job! "feel free to call since discussions with hunters are important and valued by the Department. The communication between the Department and our hunting population has been horrible in the past, I believe it is getting better, but overall direct one-on-one conversations has always been the best method."...that means, call me and I will tell you in person, over the phone, with no paper trail to bite me is the ass, but ya, we are reducing numbers of permits to slowly do away with hunting. He even contradicts himself saying how from 2010-2020 the goat population was dropping but then says in 2017 it was at its peak...uh, if its dropping then its past its peak.
I am not bashing on the bio...in fact, I applaud him for his answers and asks for a phone call instead of an email so it can't be put on a forum like this one and his bosses fire him. smart dude right there!
Grade
but ya, we are reducing numbers of permits to slowly do away with hunting.
Based on our current commission, I don't doubt this for a second. I logged on and watched a couple of their live sessions and I am dumb founded how this commission is putting any value on keeping hunting a lawful act. The sheep, moose and goat hunts will be the first to go, and the rest will be death by a 1000 cuts. Sadly, I don't see a conservative or even moderate politician who will be able to run against Bob Ferguson for the Governor's race. You don't like Jay Inslee.........Wait until he is replaced by someone much worse :yike: