Post by: CJ1962 on June 23, 2023, 06:10:30 AM
Anyway here is what I intended to say:
I’m Carl Barner, I’m from Auburn and I am here representing myself. I am a lifelong hunter, angler, and outdoorsman. I am against this so called conservation policy. I thought long and hard about want I wanted to say today. I was hoping to come up with something convincing enough that it might make a difference. In the end I decided that no matter what I said it wouldn’t matter. The reason for that is…There are several members on this commission that have shown by your behavior on this commission that you are not open to discussions or opinions that go against your beliefs. You are not interested in facts or data or even science that you disagree with. Your actions speak loader than your words.
Earlier today it was stated that managing wildlife in current times is hard. It is my opinion that it is not. Because you have an effective management model that has been in place for a 100 years that you could easily follow. You have convinced yourself that it is hard because you are not being honest with your motives or intent. It’s hard because you are trying to redefine definitions or terms, or word smith traditional language to hide your intentions. This so called conservation policy is an example of that. It was not asked for, it’s not needed, and it is a lie. It is a lie because you are not being honest with your motives. It is my belief that your motive is to end recreational hunting and angling as we know it today. It is also my belief that everyone that is here today and everyone that has already commented on it knows it for what it is. Whether you are for it or against it you believe it is the beginning of the end to recreational hunting and fishing. It is also my belief that those of you on the commission that are pushing it know It is a lie but you don’t have the courage to admit it.
Lying is hard, being honest is easy.
You can hear what I actually said at the 3:28:25 mark in this link https://tvw.org/video/washington-fish-and-wildlife-commission-2023061142/?eventID=2023061142
You can also here what John says at the 4:52:35 mark
Post by: jstone on June 23, 2023, 06:58:45 AM
You could have had facts in your pocket and they wouldn’t want to hear them. They should listen to their won Bios. And yes they are liars and idiots.
Thanks for speaking
Post by: 2MANY on June 23, 2023, 07:08:51 AM
Post by: Bareback on June 23, 2023, 07:11:12 AM
Sometimes, letting a spade know it’s actually a spade, is best. Good on you. :tup:
Post by: ducks4days on June 23, 2023, 07:18:24 AM
Post by: Tbar on June 23, 2023, 07:23:04 AM
Post by: Henrydog on June 23, 2023, 07:31:52 AM
Post by: baker5150 on June 23, 2023, 07:52:54 AM
Does he no longer hunt? If so, he ins't a "lifelong hunter"
And if he can't sit in a meeting and not take a little criticism, he isn't suited for public appointment of this position.
Grow a set, or step down.
Post by: fishngamereaper on June 23, 2023, 08:10:07 AM
I think they know these meetings are just checking boxes...they don't honestly care what people have to say...
I applaud those that are putting themselves out there. It doesn't hurt to try.
Post by: buckfvr on June 23, 2023, 08:14:41 AM
Why does Lehmkuhl keep saying he "WAS a lifelong hunter"
Does he no longer hunt? If so, he ins't a "lifelong hunter"
And if he can't sit in a meeting and not take a little criticism, he isn't suited for public appointment of this position.
Grow a set, or step down.
They all have the "how dare you" attitude. Dont question them, dont challenge them, accept their elite other worldly knowledge and insight. :puke:
Post by: HillHound on June 23, 2023, 08:24:57 AM
Post by: CJ1962 on June 23, 2023, 08:32:56 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on June 23, 2023, 08:36:37 AM
Post by: GOcougsHunter on June 23, 2023, 08:47:01 AM
As a side note... I live in Seattle. I really think the commission meeting in downtown Seattle was silly. The irony of the location where this meeting was held and where 100% of the historical habitat is lost... Their stated position of bringing everything back to some historical preservation point is laughable. why are these same people not standing up to filling in the mountlake cut to bring Lake Washington back to its historic levels? What about bringing back all of the soil and vegetation where the denny regrade happened? Just a bunch of myopic fools. Easy to destroy other's ways of life than take accountability for your own carbon footprint.
Post by: timberfaller on June 23, 2023, 08:49:25 AM
We are in a battle against people who think more highly of themselves then they ought to think!!! And funding by the Center of Biological Diversity and other radical groups! :bash:
Post by: fishngamereaper on June 23, 2023, 08:54:33 AM
Does he not trust state bio's?
Is he promoting privatization of wildlife management..?.
Or was he just being a smart a...
None of them are good looks for an acting commission.
Post by: ducks4days on June 23, 2023, 09:20:47 AM
Seems the hire a bio comment would be good ammunition in the lawsuit..
Does he not trust state bio's?
Is he promoting privatization of wildlife management..?.
Or was he just being a smart a...
None of them are good looks for an acting commission.
WDFW has hired a legion of biologists. I have concerns over his ability to set budgets and allocate resources considering his current position and ignorance around the headcount in the department.
Post by: baker5150 on June 23, 2023, 10:15:19 AM
Seems the hire a bio comment would be good ammunition in the lawsuit..
Does he not trust state bio's?
Is he promoting privatization of wildlife management..?.
Or was he just being a smart a...
None of them are good looks for an acting commission.
I emailed him to see if he'd clarify his statements....
Why he thinks his frustration is warranted but not hunters frustrations.
I'd like to know what his stance would be when a privately funded bio comes to the exact same conclusion as WFDFW's bio's.
Why he doesn't trust his own departments scientific conclusions.
I asked why his op-ed was published on a pay-to-view platform, and why he thinks that is a good source for open dialogue? (what an idiot)
Post by: hunter399 on June 23, 2023, 10:25:13 AM
Ya I did email and tell them I did not support the new conservation policy.
I agree with all on this topic,we could hire 100 biologists and the commission wouldn't listen to a single one.
The fact that the commission disregards our state biologists is a crime.
And in my opinion tells me they are not in the best interest of Washington State resources .
Post by: dwils233 on June 23, 2023, 12:02:25 PM
Seems the hire a bio comment would be good ammunition in the lawsuit..
Does he not trust state bio's?
Is he promoting privatization of wildlife management..?.
Or was he just being a smart a...
None of them are good looks for an acting commission.
I emailed him to see if he'd clarify his statements....
Why he thinks his frustration is warranted but not hunters frustrations.
I'd like to know what his stance would be when a privately funded bio comes to the exact same conclusion as WFDFW's bio's.
Why he doesn't trust his own departments scientific conclusions.
I asked why his op-ed was published on a pay-to-view platform, and why he thinks that is a good source for open dialogue? (what an idiot)
Let us know if he responds to you! He made a big holler about how no one engages with him from our community
Post by: Fidelk on June 23, 2023, 12:20:06 PM
Post by: Special T on June 23, 2023, 12:42:29 PM
Seems the hire a bio comment would be good ammunition in the lawsuit..
Does he not trust state bio's?
Is he promoting privatization of wildlife management..?.
Or was he just being a smart a...
None of them are good looks for an acting commission.
No they don't trust thier own bios. They went against them on spring bear. Stephanie Sefnic (sp?) Left this state, was lured back and was so pissed at the disrespect they gave bios she transferred to the Wa State Parks.
It appears these Comissioners continue to give good ammo for the lawsuit! I'm excited about thier statements that go against thier mandate.
Post by: whacker1 on June 23, 2023, 12:44:51 PM
I agree with him in that the next message has to be different. We can't continue to share the same message and expect different results. i think the next message is using the bio information wdfw has provided and put it in front of him. We, as the taxpayers, have hired biologists. Too hire an independent biologist would require a commitment on the commission's part for open dialogue.
You are correct in that they as the commission don't want to be questioned.
The term is "decision architecture" Make the decision desired, and then load the commission, in this case, with people that will find ways to support the decision. Many of them are largely pawns in the architecture and don't even know it, because they participate as commissioners or advocates thinking as dogooders, but in reality the decision was made before they were even involved.
but i do go back to that we as a group will have to continue to change the message, which is hard to do when we know that commissioners are insincere about their intentions. Please remember that when we get to the general election. It is likely to be Bob Ferguson, which is a smarter version of Jay Inslee, against either Hillary Franze or Mark Mullett. i suspect that we will have a hard time getting a republican through the primary next year based on the number of candidates in the race.
Post by: Special T on June 23, 2023, 03:17:32 PM
3:14 RMEF made a great statement
3:24 a commenter called them disingenuous and a lier
4:07 our own Doug Boze made a fantastic statement as did the following 4 or so commentors.
4:15 Kim Thorburn spoke
4:30 Max Cole for the GMAC read a letter they wrote pointing out that this policy is Illegal according to RCW 77.04.012
4:34 Ron Gardner spoke for the Pudget Sound Angler Association
And at about 4:48 Baker responded to comments, and Lehmkuhl then made an amazing statement, about how sportsmen should hire thier own bio about Spring Bear and he is tired of hearing about it.
Post by: salmosalar on June 23, 2023, 03:56:07 PM
I have spoken before the commission on a number of occasions. I always felt like I could have done better. When I would listen after, I would realize that I had done quite well.
It does matter to show up. I have seen results before. Cynicism is the enemy of improvement.
I have been involved in a lot of public hearings due to my profession and passions, the key is to be professional and logic based and not to elicit negative emotional responses from the decision makers or call people names. Once that starts, the ears turn off.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 23, 2023, 03:58:28 PM
Thank you for going and commenting.:yeah:
I have spoken before the commission on a number of occasions. I always felt like I could have done better. When I would listen after, I would realize that I had done quite well.
It does matter to show up. I have seen results before. Cynicism is the enemy of improvement.
I have been involved in a lot of public hearings due to my profession and passions, the key is to be professional and logic based and not to elicit negative emotional responses from the decision makers or call people names. Once that starts, the ears turn off.
Post by: GOcougsHunter on June 23, 2023, 04:03:30 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on June 23, 2023, 04:22:56 PM
Post by: Special T on June 23, 2023, 04:26:08 PM
I think the entire commission believes with a straight face that they are not anti hunting. The concept they are not grasping is that severe reductions in populations of ungulates means less opportunity to harvest an animal in any given season. We can still hunt all we want even if there are no elk in the Blue Mountains or deer in Stevens county. Walking around in the woods with no animals with a firearm or bow is still hunting right?
5 of them are ideologues and the verbal condemnation they received was nessary. They have proven they won't listen to reason.. so don't reason with them, condemn them in as polite stern way possible and give money to the WWC lawsuit to send them packing!
Post by: kodiak10 on June 23, 2023, 07:42:57 PM
https://publicinput.com/draftconservationpolicy#0 (https://publicinput.com/draftconservationpolicy#0)
Here is my person comment if anyone wants to see it, I completed an MS in Conservation Biology in 2021 but now work in agriculture haha.
I hold a masters degree in Conservation Biology from Macquarie University and feel qualified to comment on this Conservation Policy. This policy sets forth some goals that meet the needs of wildlife and the public, but falls short in some crucial areas.
The new policy fails to mention how these goals are to be accomplished. Is Washington's current wildlife plan, the SWAP going to be used to guide conservation action? The administration should be clear with the public on how they intend to acheive these goals rather than writing a blank check to do whatever they please in the name of saving wildlife. This sort of action could lead to maladaptation and more damage to our treasured resources down the road. We do not have the luxury of spending valuable time and money on actions that are not effective.
In addition, what sort of role will hunting and fishing play in the new commission's vision? At this point it seems that these valuable tools for generating income for conservation and public interest in protecting wildlife may be thrown at the wayside for emotional arguments. Sportsman lost the spring bear season recently, due to emotional arguments that were not based in science.
Will the commission continue to consider its' legal obligation to allow for fishing and hunting for all people in WA under RCW 77.04.012?
Post by: Shooter4 on June 23, 2023, 08:14:48 PM
Post by: saylean on June 23, 2023, 08:59:07 PM
Post by: X-Force on June 23, 2023, 09:30:00 PM
Post by: Special T on June 23, 2023, 10:47:33 PM
Does the commission have a legal obligation to sit and listen to public comment? I’m just wondering with 2 walking out as soon as someone they obviously distain was set to speak.
No, but it shows that the pressure is cracking them. You can tell that the comments about them being disingenuous, we don't trust them and they are liners pissed them off. Perhaps more of the We don't trust you, and you are disingenuous comments are the best path forward. We won't move forward because they are not honest brokers in the conversation..
Post by: HillHound on June 24, 2023, 06:04:59 AM
Does the commission have a legal obligation to sit and listen to public comment? I’m just wondering with 2 walking out as soon as someone they obviously distain was set to speak.I sure think they have an obligation to listen to our comments. Because it’s their job. That’s why they were appointed in that position. If they can’t listen and discuss the topic at hand they need to forfeit their position. Just like with spring bear with Lorna and her crazy friends refused to even discuss it again. And they don’t want us bringing up spring bear again. Oh of course because they realize how wrong they were there so they wanted to sweep it under the rug before anybody notices. Man I hope some of these commissioners personally pay for their decisions that are causing overpopulation of predators like many of us who had no say will be. Hopefully they remember when that cougar or bear tears the guts out of their golden doodle in their yard that that cougar really was there before and he really does deserve to be able to eat their dogs and they really should just sit there and watch and enjoy the awesome nature sightseeing opportunity they have right in their yard. Maybe they could get a cute new small dog each week that way if that poor cougar happens to be hungry It could just stop by their yard and eat another. Shoot they put them above everything they probably wouldn’t be opposed to feeding a couple grandkids to them. Because again after all the animals do have more rights than us along with people who have no interest or interaction or use for the animals also have more rights and say than us apparently. Having these wackos on our game commission is the same as having the local sentcy or Tupperware salesperson become the county’s building inspector. These people have no personal knowledge of anything they are talking about. All that they have is a combined hate for anybody and everybody that hunts. They are liars and they will do anything to get their way.
Post by: AKBowman on June 26, 2023, 02:49:01 PM
A couple things to note:
1. several members of the commission didn’t know what a multi-season permit was, what CWD is and or why the WDFW would incentive hunters to submit testing for CWD.
2. One of the commissioners, I believe it was Barbara Baker, told a story immediately leading out of lunch break. She told a story of her recent trip to Africa with the valuable lessons she learned of conservation while on the trip. She headed warning that we (North America) are “way behind” on conservation as compared to the places she visited in Africa. In fact, she stated, they are so far ahead of us they have already “banned hunting”.
3. The 2nd speaker was a pro-hunter (young guy) who brought up the point that at least 5 of the appointed commissioners have never been taken hunter education. How can you make educated decisions about subjects you have zero first hand experience with?
Let’s not mince words here. A vast majority of these people are straight up anti-hunting.
I was the one who spoke on the Wild Harvest Initiative which is the first real study to put tangible subjective values to the amount of meals provided each year, in each state from hunting. I tried to emphasize that this is a legit project lead by science and done in conjunction with state agencies involved. This could be a tool they could use to promote the value of wildlife as a sustainable resource while using their platform to help solve a hunger issue we see in this country.
A big part of what I talked about is the project shows 93% of hunters share their harvest with on average of 3 other people within their household. 74% of hunters shared their harvest with on average of 4 people outside their household. My point was that even if only 2% of the population hunts it’s likely that up to 20% (or more) of the population benefits from the food provided. It’s not 2% of the population in WA State that hunts and 98% are against hunting. I think I made mention that recent polls show 70% of people are in favor of hunting as way of obtaining food.
I also spoke about the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and tried to emphasize that is NOT broken. In fact it is nearly solely responsible for the national recovery of deer, elk, bison, Turkey, waterfowl and more.
https://thewildharvestinitiative.com/
Post by: ducks4days on June 26, 2023, 03:16:39 PM
2. One of the commissioners, I believe it was Barbara Baker, told a story immediately leading out of lunch break. She told a story of her recent trip to Africa with the valuable lessons she learned of conservation while on the trip. She headed warning that we (North America) are “way behind” on conservation as compared to the places she visited in Africa. In fact, she stated, they are so far ahead of us they have already “banned hunting”.
They want a return to colonialism and a noble/aristocrat class who have a sole right to the land and animals on it. This is the only way I can interpret this which makes sense.
Post by: MADMAX on June 26, 2023, 03:17:03 PM
I hope any who care at least send an email to the entire commission
Post by: MADMAX on June 26, 2023, 03:18:48 PM
2. One of the commissioners, I believe it was Barbara Baker, told a story immediately leading out of lunch break. She told a story of her recent trip to Africa with the valuable lessons she learned of conservation while on the trip. She headed warning that we (North America) are “way behind” on conservation as compared to the places she visited in Africa. In fact, she stated, they are so far ahead of us they have already “banned hunting”.
They want a return to colonialism and a noble/aristocrat class who have a sole right to the land and animals on it. This is the only way I can interpret this which makes sense.
They want control
And ultimately our guns
Post by: hunter399 on June 26, 2023, 04:36:55 PM
I took a few hours off and attended the meeting from about 11:30 to lunch break then spoke in the first round of public comments coming out of lunch break. I agree with the OP though it is hard to come up with anything constructive to say in 2 minutes.
A couple things to note:
1. several members of the commission didn’t know what a multi-season permit was, what CWD is and or why the WDFW would incentive hunters to submit testing for CWD.
2. One of the commissioners, I believe it was Barbara Baker, told a story immediately leading out of lunch break. She told a story of her recent trip to Africa with the valuable lessons she learned of conservation while on the trip. She headed warning that we (North America) are “way behind” on conservation as compared to the places she visited in Africa. In fact, she stated, they are so far ahead of us they have already “banned hunting”.
3. The 2nd speaker was a pro-hunter (young guy) who brought up the point that at least 5 of the appointed commissioners have never been taken hunter education. How can you make educated decisions about subjects you have zero first hand experience with?
Let’s not mince words here. A vast majority of these people are straight up anti-hunting.
I was the one who spoke on the Wild Harvest Initiative which is the first real study to put tangible subjective values to the amount of meals provided each year, in each state from hunting. I tried to emphasize that this is a legit project lead by science and done in conjunction with state agencies involved. This could be a tool they could use to promote the value of wildlife as a sustainable resource while using their platform to help solve a hunger issue we see in this country.
A big part of what I talked about is the project shows 93% of hunters share their harvest with on average of 3 other people within their household. 74% of hunters shared their harvest with on average of 4 people outside their household. My point was that even if only 2% of the population hunts it’s likely that up to 20% (or more) of the population benefits from the food provided. It’s not 2% of the population in WA State that hunts and 98% are against hunting. I think I made mention that recent polls show 70% of people are in favor of hunting as way of obtaining food.
I also spoke about the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and tried to emphasize that is NOT broken. In fact it is nearly solely responsible for the national recovery of deer, elk, bison, Turkey, waterfowl and more.
https://thewildharvestinitiative.com/
Number 2 on your list is so funny to me.
And explains alot about Barbara baker.
Cause I believe without trophy hunting dollars poachers will destroy more wildlife then they will protect.
In a country such as Africa ,you can't ban hunting and think poachers won't take over.
Almost every animal that's endangered is cause of poachers.
You gotta be stupid to think that's gonna work out.
Funny thing about our Commission is ,Who do you think paid for conservation of all the animals you seen in the animal preserve.
Or all the conservation and science up to this point in Washington.
Just WOW.
Just keep taking our money,and keep trying to limit opportunities,or ban hunting.
Your just hurting our wildlife even more ,by limiting the amount of funding that goes to support the same animals you think your protecting.
Spring bear is a perfect example.
WDFW is not using spring bear money
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 27, 2023, 08:35:24 AM
Good job on the podium for us. Thank you! :tup:
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 27, 2023, 09:23:16 AM
The latest observations noted in this thread are not surprising but literally make me want to throw up that this commission has authority over the hunting in this state. These individuals have no business making decisions about things they obviously know next to nothing on.
That being said the realist in me can't help but feel like the nails are in the coffin already, and now they are just going to slowly pound them in one by one over the coming decades till hunting in this state is a thing of the past.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 27, 2023, 09:26:13 AM
Post by: luvmystang67 on June 27, 2023, 10:46:39 AM
I hope they get REALLY tired of hearing about it.
Keep it up, thanks for doing what you did!
People can only take so much, especially when they know they're wrong. Keep up the pressure.
Post by: GOcougsHunter on June 27, 2023, 11:01:00 AM
Its music to my ears that they're "tired of hearing about Spring bear".
I hope they get REALLY tired of hearing about it.
Keep it up, thanks for doing what you did!
People can only take so much, especially when they know they're wrong. Keep up the pressure.
agree. What I get tired of hearing is "only 2% of Washingtonians hunt. We need to account for the other 98% in our decision making" I have said this before, every one of these Washington boards, oversight committees, regulators etc who manage the niche departments within the state are under the wrong assumption/fallacy that the totality of the population needs to drive decision making. The most impacted user group needs to have the biggest say and influence. Period. WSDOT has a rules board for aviation and public airfields. Could you imagine if it was staffed with non pilots who drove an agenda based on input from the entire state where most folks have no skin in the game? That is what this commission is doing.
Post by: James on June 27, 2023, 11:27:50 AM
I really believe this is the hill we need to be willing to die on as sportsman. If this passes, I think the chances of fishing and hunting in Washington being picked away into oblivion is almost certain.
If we can stop this policy change I am not saying we are out of the woods, but at least the countdown clock to the end of fishing and hunting in WA hasn't started yet.
Post by: Mtnwalker on June 27, 2023, 11:54:37 AM
Its music to my ears that they're "tired of hearing about Spring bear".
I hope they get REALLY tired of hearing about it.
Keep it up, thanks for doing what you did!
People can only take so much, especially when they know they're wrong. Keep up the pressure.
agree. What I get tired of hearing is "only 2% of Washingtonians hunt. We need to account for the other 98% in our decision making" I have said this before, every one of these Washington boards, oversight committees, regulators etc who manage the niche departments within the state are under the wrong assumption/fallacy that the totality of the population needs to drive decision making. The most impacted user group needs to have the biggest say and influence. Period. WSDOT has a rules board for aviation and public airfields. Could you imagine if it was staffed with non pilots who drove an agenda based on input from the entire state where most folks have no skin in the game? That is what this commission is doing.
:yeah: I thought WA was all about protecting the minority.
Post by: elksnout on June 29, 2023, 08:15:47 AM
draftconservationpolicy@PublicInput.com or call 855 925 2801. Punch in # 4262 to leave message.
elksnout
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 29, 2023, 08:59:06 AM
Post by: elksnout on June 29, 2023, 09:18:13 AM
can someone post the link to what is on FB?
[/quot
Wish I knew how. It’s an article from NW Sportsman by Andy Walgamet
elksnout
Post by: RC on June 29, 2023, 09:58:26 AM
https://nwsportsmanmag.com/wdfw-commissioners-on-what-they-heard-about-conservation-policy/
I haven't tried finding the FB link, but suspect it would do more good to get your comments directly to the commission by using the link elksnout posted. Seriously doubt posting on FB carries much weight.
Post by: Dan-o on June 29, 2023, 12:23:51 PM
Thank you.
Post by: hunter399 on June 29, 2023, 01:26:37 PM
Post by: GASoline71 on June 29, 2023, 03:54:33 PM
I truly wish that more of you would flood the public comment periods whether in person or via Zoom. It always seems to be the same dozen people or so making comments. I know for a fact they are sick of hearing me speak, as I've had some of them walk out while I give my testimony. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of hunters in this state, yet only a dozen or so comment at almost every meeting. We need more people to sign up!
Gary
Post by: Slamadoo on June 30, 2023, 03:15:41 PM
Post by: sage rat on June 30, 2023, 05:31:59 PM
Post by: Bob33 on June 30, 2023, 06:13:20 PM
I commented today and have a running email with Lumkuhl. I'm surprised he is emailing me back. He told me that he wished us hunters could give a pro and con argument for spring bear hunting. I told him that I have not heard any of the anti hunters give a pro argumentSo that's the new norm? Hunting is not allowed until a pro/con discussion is held? How about listening to the biologists who said it is needed for many reasons as a pro argument.