Post by: Special T on October 27, 2023, 03:05:35 PM
Some of you may be familiar with Foundation for Wildlife Management. F4wm.org. Are sportsmen at the point where will follow a model like this to pay tribal members to do the work that our department is unwilling or able to do? Some tribes are currently doing this to a degree on ceded hunting areas. Some could do more, and some tribes like the Yakimas have such a huge area that they could make a big difference if incentivised.
I am of the opinion that working inside the system of courts, the department, and legislature are not preventing the decimation of our herds. I belive a shot across the bow of anti hunting orgs and Comissioners is in order. An endeavor like this would require sportsmen opening up wallets and raising real money. Are we going to wait until the predators have eaten most of the deer and elk before we are motivated to do so? Are we willing to burry the hatchet for our frustration/envy/hate for certain tribes or tribal members that we feel take more than thier share? We should realize what half of ZERO is.
I would also entertain plans or other options besides wishing for the other side to come around.
Post by: wolfbait on October 27, 2023, 03:41:54 PM
Then there's the problem of WDFW just dumping more wolves in areas they think have a shortage of wolves, face it where wolves are concerned we are in a lose, lose situation.
Post by: NWWA Hunter on October 27, 2023, 05:59:13 PM
It's too late in many areas of WA, on another note wolf hunting will not control the population, nor trapping.I do not believe this. Special t has a point and quite possibly the only answer to fix the problem.
Then there's the problem of WDFW just dumping more wolves in areas they think have a shortage of wolves, face it where wolves are concerned we are in a lose, lose situation.
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Post by: jrebel on October 27, 2023, 06:15:29 PM
Are the tribes helping fight the current commission and decisions being made without listening to the game biologists? Have the tribes spoken out about the new conservation vs preservation model? What have the tribes done in recent years to fight for everyone’s hunting rights?
Again….I don’t know the answer to the above questions and would need to know where the tribes stand before answering your initial question. I have to believe the tribes carry a heavy voice with the state and elected officials and if they stood with hunters against what’s going on, things might change.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 27, 2023, 06:18:03 PM
I'll jump on the getting flamed wagon.... Paying Natives to kill predators will allow the Natives to improve their hunting, while at the same time do nothing to improve the non-native's hunting. Have we forgot about the commish goals?
Post by: Platensek-po on October 27, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
I don’t know the answer the questions I’m about to ask, so don’t flame me!!!
Are the tribes helping fight the current commission and decisions being made without listening to the game biologists? Have the tribes spoken out about the new conservation vs preservation model? What have the tribes done in recent years to fight for everyone’s hunting rights?
Again….I don’t know the answer to the above questions and would need to know where the tribes stand before answering your initial question. I have to believe the tribes carry a heavy voice with the state and elected officials and if they stood with hunters against what’s going on, things might change.
https://nwsportsmanmag.com/nwifc-chair-weighs-in-on-wa-fwcs-draft-conservation-policy/
I think the tribes understand that without help from the state then everything goes down the toilet. They can manage for their pieces of land but if the animals don’t necessarily respect boundaries. They also know that as soon as they take it away from us they are next. It’s gunna be interesting and scary to see how this goes
Post by: Special T on October 27, 2023, 10:29:52 PM
Isn't it in a hunters best interest to not kill wolves? Just another step backwards from a possibilty (slim as it may be) of delisting.
I'll jump on the getting flamed wagon.... Paying Natives to kill predators will allow the Natives to improve their hunting, while at the same time do nothing to improve the non-native's hunting. Have we forgot about the commish goals?
We know that anit hunting forces are not honest brokers in the discussion or negotiation. They move established goal posts at every opportunity through lawsuits and commission appointments and votes. I believe we have limited recompence within the rules, that are mostly favored/controlled by the Anti crowd. My question revolves around the desire of sportsmen to solve problems while thinking out side of the box. I am most interested in those that voted NO and their thoughts.
As to tribes only killing predators that have helped themselves... I know of at least one tribe that has instituted a cougar culling project and has done so for some time now on land that all sportsmen can hunt. Does it help them? Sure it does but its public land and it also helps us. Many ceded hunting areas overlap with public hunting grounds. In talking with a couple of tribal biologists predator hunting isnt embraced by most tribal members. Im not sure of the reasoning but its not a widely embraced activity. As an archer I have heard many an angry story about a tribal member pulling big bulls out the days before archery season. I understand. That same freedom or right that angers some can also be an asset. Anti hunting groups only fear the the tribes. TAKE ADVANTAGE of that. Tribes can use footholds snares, hounds or bait. how many bitching sessions have we had on here about Indians doing XY or Z? plenty... My question is what does it take for sportsmen to turn the tables on our political enemies? Will you wait till ALL deer and elk are permit only? Will you be willing to wait and see which tribes tackle this problem on their own? How long do you think it would take for herds to rebuild once decimated? Keep in mind not all tribes are the same. Not all tribes are pro predator control, Indians are not a homogeneous group. Are you only willing to fight for deer permits in the North half above the Colville Rez because that tribe is willing to do something? The Walla Wall And Nez Perce dont seem concerned about elk numbers in the blues. The Yakimas have the largest area with hunting rights but dont seem have the funds or concern for ungulates across its range. The west side has so many different tribes with a variety of interests and motivations that certainly cannot be summed up across their shared hunting areas.
I live in Skagit county. I remember when every Tarheal and Redneck had a dog box. As a Kid we picked up many a hound in the dead of night snowing and called the handler for them to pick up in the morning on our way back to Lake Cavanaugh. Sadly this is no longer the case. perhaps Im just a dreamer but I wish a bunch of those folks made friends with tribal guys and some one was carrying on the tradition and managment.
Post by: jackelope on October 28, 2023, 11:37:49 AM
Isn't it in a hunters best interest to not kill wolves? Just another step backwards from a possibilty (slim as it may be) of delisting.
I'll jump on the getting flamed wagon.... Paying Natives to kill predators will allow the Natives to improve their hunting, while at the same time do nothing to improve the non-native's hunting. Have we forgot about the commish goals?
I’m pretty sure we’ve had the ability to delist wolves already and nothing has happened. They were already federally delisted and that got thrown out. So I’m not sure sticking to this mindset anymore makes sense. I used to think the same thing.
Post by: buckfvr on October 28, 2023, 12:06:42 PM
Post by: jstone on October 28, 2023, 12:31:44 PM
Post by: jstone on October 28, 2023, 12:32:49 PM
The Democrats are destroying this state. Voters are just in lala land
Post by: NWWA Hunter on October 28, 2023, 12:53:37 PM
This state sucks.!!Some of our strongest advocates for hunting and fishing have been democrats. We need to quit being so closed minded and find answers for the situation. Possibly it could be electing pro harvest democrats where republicans can not be elected where us idiots are wasting a vote.
The Democrats are destroying this state. Voters are just in lala land
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Post by: snit on October 28, 2023, 03:14:35 PM
Relating the topic to PNW salmon/steelhead populations and interactions with predators over the last 25 years; some coastal tribes do practice predator control that affect their tribal fisheries, on both marine mammals and avian species. My understanding of the laws that apply to these specific situations are VERY minimal, but I do know that there's some instances where tribal member can practice predator control for these aforementioned critters. It is well above and beyond what non-Indian persons may partake in. (I.e. an Indian killing a seal/sealion near the mouth of the Quileute, Queets, or Quinault Rivers for example). I've heard several reports of my example over the last (2) decades, yet, along the Southern WA coast or the portion of the Columbia below Bonneville Dam to Ilwaco (where 100's of pinniped's reside in this 90-mile section of the Columbia) I've never heard mention of a tribal member performing "predator control" on a marine mammal (or birds). Yes, occasionally there's an isolated "unsolved" killing of a sealion, but I don't think it's relevant to my point.
My point is that the tribes take care of "their" resources to the best of their abilities; but if "they" really cared about "the salmon/steelhead" resources that are migrating along the WA Coast and up the Columbia as a whole, they would be the best group to challenge any of the federal laws (if needed) to control the insane amount of pinniped's that line the Lower Columbia awaiting the return of the anadromous fish...but they don't.
Therefore, I really don't believe that "hiring" Indians would be a long-term, positive solution to the predator problem. I think there's still a negative socio-stigma from the settlement of the West that taint's the tribe's overall management plans, and how they mesh with coordinating with "us"/("sportsman"). Also, in this State it appears that financial motivation for Treaty Tribes is quite passive, as I believe the current regimes have adopted the tribes quite well into their clutch (casino's, reservation fuel centers, tax free tobacco, etc).
Post by: jason stevens on October 28, 2023, 03:25:52 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on October 28, 2023, 03:30:06 PM
Does anyone have any insight or idea why, since we are shared partners with the tribes why they do not have a slot or 2 seated on the Commission?
As has been said, what is done or not done outside the reservations still has an impact on them, at least to some degree I would think.
Post by: NWWA Hunter on October 28, 2023, 03:37:51 PM
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Post by: buckfvr on October 28, 2023, 04:11:24 PM
Random thought, kinda close to topic.
Does anyone have any insight or idea why, since we are shared partners with the tribes why they do not have a slot or 2 seated on the Commission?
As has been said, what is done or not done outside the reservations still has an impact on them, at least to some degree I would think.
Their sovereign nation status, state doesnt set their rules they dont set ours.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on October 28, 2023, 04:36:13 PM
Random thought, kinda close to topic.
Does anyone have any insight or idea why, since we are shared partners with the tribes why they do not have a slot or 2 seated on the Commission?
As has been said, what is done or not done outside the reservations still has an impact on them, at least to some degree I would think.
Their sovereign nation status, state doesnt set their rules they dont set ours.
I know that, was wondering though if that shouldn't change slightly, there is always talk of co-management & cooperation between WDFW & the tribes, maybe they should have some standing/a voice in the commission as well?
Just a thought, trying to find some approach that maybe hasn't been considered yet.
Post by: Special T on October 28, 2023, 09:21:03 PM
Random thought, kinda close to topic.
Does anyone have any insight or idea why, since we are shared partners with the tribes why they do not have a slot or 2 seated on the Commission?
As has been said, what is done or not done outside the reservations still has an impact on them, at least to some degree I would think.
Their sovereign nation status, state doesnt set their rules they dont set ours.
A tribal member has been on the comission before. I would have to resear the name.
Post by: wags on November 05, 2023, 11:09:39 PM
But if things get out of control, I wouldn't be at all surprised if people start taking predator management into their own hands; at least with the canines.
Post by: wolfbait on November 07, 2023, 12:55:09 AM
No, I am not recommending anyone do this.
But if things get out of control, I wouldn't be at all surprised if people start taking predator management into their own hands; at least with the canines.
That's been happening for a long time now, WDFW made it clear early on that they had no desire to be Honest with livestock predation and at this point if the truth be known, they don't really give a dam about wolves getting shot as there is no way to reverse the impact wolves have and will have in the future.
Took a trip with a rancher over in on the Okanogan side today, we drove one big pasture of 2800 acres, took about 6 hours. In country that is prime mule deer country where 20 years ago you would have seen 3-400 head a day, we saw 8 deer.
The illegal wolf introduction accomplished part of it's goal to destroy hunting. State game agencies that support wolves and carried on the lies of the USFWS along with the fake environmentalists and their lackies on hunting sites such as this have won. Get use to it!
Switch over to cougars that are pushed out of their hunting areas by wolves and lack of prey to end up hunting farmland animals, are shot quite frequently around peoples homes, and of course WDFW are informed. You very seldom read anything in the paper as it is old news at this point as it happens on a regular bases.
I could now jump into the bear problem which is real in the summer month, keeps WDFW fairly busy shooting problem bears. They contract out their nuisance trapping now.
Another 3 years or less and my guess is WDFW will leap to their feet to blame everything except their poor management on lack of deer etc., and close hunting down. It won't change the outcome, because as I said at the start hunting and trapping wolves will not control the population. There will be more predation on livestock as all those predators WDFW protect need to eat. Hunt while you can because it's going to come to an end in the not so distant future. :twocents:
Post by: steeleywhopper on November 07, 2023, 09:47:45 AM
This state sucks.!!
The Democrats are destroying this state. Voters are just in lala land
100%
Post by: Slamadoo on November 07, 2023, 11:08:28 AM
No.
Post by: logger on November 11, 2023, 06:12:34 PM
Post by: idaho guy on November 11, 2023, 07:45:57 PM
Post by: Joyce on November 12, 2023, 05:21:29 AM
Paying the tribes to kill predators is genius. The politically correct anti hunters would be scared to death to say anything.
I believe the Makah people would beg to differ.
How many whales have they been allowed to take?
Post by: haus on November 12, 2023, 05:43:16 AM
Regardless our hunting rights are in jeopardy and theirs will be too once we’re out of the way. A coalition of tribal and non tribal hunters is going to be required to stop the commission and their anti-hunting supporters.
Post by: ASHQUACK on November 12, 2023, 08:02:51 AM