Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 09:41:25 AM

Title: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 09:41:25 AM: I thought it would be fun and interesting to start a thread about supplemental feeding of your deer herds and food plot management or all around property management for supporting healthy deer and elk herds and also attracting the animals to your hunting property. So here it goes. What do you folks do to attract animals to your hunting area and have you been cognizant of the overall appearance of the animals in your herds and whether they look healthy, are they bony looking after winter, do they seem overly stressed, is it because of food or because of predators? Instead of typing out all the data I've gathered I'm just gonna post some screenshots and try to post PDFs of data gathered from studies from Missouri and deer farm management.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 09:49:42 AM: The first thing I wanted to mention was the need for healthy fawns to be born in order for the deer to have a chance at even reaching full potential. According to studies if a doe in poor condition gives birth to a fawn that is also in poor condition that animal can take up to 3 yrs to catch back up to other fawns born that same year. As a result you will see more and more small bucks up into their 3rd year and beyond and wonder why your deer all have small antlers and never seem to get big. Aside from that one that suddenly shows up one year and appears to be a 4-5 year old stud and has a heavy rack and big body. He probably had a healthy mother and got the start in life he needed. I see this first hand with my Icelandic sheep and anyone who has spent time around livestock knows this to be true. So how do we go about ensuring that the does are having healthy fawns? What native plants can you put on your property that provide food during the winter months and into the spring to provide good nutrition?
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 09:56:04 AM: I understand that some of these plants don't grow naturally where we are but if you were to plant them in our area some will do just fine and you will be attracting the deer to your ground because you have something unique and favorable to them.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 10:03:06 AM: One plant I cannot say enough about is Sainfoin. I know a few people in Eastern Washington that grow it for feed and also have alfalfa fields and they have told me that during the growing season the deer will go to the Sainfoin field first and then to the alfalfa only when they have to. Such as right after cutting and baling the Sainfoin. Otherwise they prefer the Sainfoin over the alfalfa. They are both legumes. However, Sainfoin has whats called tannins. In this context, tannins can modulate gut microbial composition and function, selectively inhibiting pathogens and promoting the growth of beneficial bacteria. The tannins in Sainfoin have been shown to be a natural wormer as well. This is huge in terms of animal health. It also has a natural non bloating property to it. Unlike alfalfa which can quickly kill an animal if they consume too much and are not used to having it on a regular basis. Whole grains will do the same thing.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 10:14:47 AM: A little more on plants that are more friendly to whitetail and alot of them would need to be planted as they do not occur naturally in most areas of the Pacific Northwest. Nut trees and fruit trees. What's known as mast. Mushrooms would be nice but that's alot harder to propagate for a deer to rat and not want to consume them yourself! :chuckle: As fall approaches, whitetails must find and consume large quantities of carbohydrate-rich foods such as acorns, chestnuts, apples and pears. Nuts and mushrooms are high in phosphorus, which is needed to replace what is taken from a buck's flat bones (ribs and skull) for antler mineralization. Mineral links will help with this but not all minerals are created equal. Some products have minerals in them but not in a form that is readily usable by the body. Some require amino acids and other compounds to convert them in the body into usable forms.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 09, 2024, 10:28:28 AM: What I think is most important here is the discussion about feeding deer and elk in the winter to help them out and the negative effects it has on them that people don't realize. If the animal is not used to consuming a product (sacked or pelleted grain feeds) or plant (alfalfa or a rich grass hay from outside the area) then it takes them a while to develope the right gut bacteria to break down those products and in doing that you are creating the possibility of killing the animal or causing them further stress when your intentions were to help them. If you slowly introduce feed like this in the late summer and continually feed it year around then you can do so without concerns. Most folks can't afford this. The solution would be to plant native forage for them to find and consume on their own. Every spring the local conservation district has a plant sale where you can buy seedlings for next to nothing and go out and plant them on your land. Protect them for the first few years and eventually you will have strong healthy plants that can withstand the constant pruning of ungulates feeding on them and you will have created a natural attractant on your hunting property
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: nwwanderer on February 09, 2024, 11:58:28 AM: Generally all good stuff, would need to rewrite/research for local conditions. A great deal of WT research has been done but very little here. All, BT, WT and MD, have their quirks, preferences and seasonal variations. Specific plant foods vary a great deal even within WA. Report what you see, keep it coming!!!
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 11, 2024, 12:30:35 AM: I like to thank they are healthy,but who really knows. :chuckle:
Available forage is just that,whatever is available for given time of year.
Plants I guess is dependent on weather type conditions from year to year.
I would think drought years would cut into the forage,maybe fires,stuff like that.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 11, 2024, 08:19:56 AM: My place is in mule deer country. I have been improving the habitat and supplementing feed for ten years now. I have planted 10,000 pine trees since the fire, sprayed hundreds of gallons of noxious weed killer. Planted orchard grass and winter wheat as ground cover immediately after the fire until the native grasses and plants could come back. It was amazing to see all the native plants and shrubs come back from just the root ball that was still underground after the fire.

I have selenium mineral blocks at 7 different locations. I have developed year round water sources at four locations and plan to develop two more this year. I have a tube feeder that puts out wet cob, an electric spin feeder that puts out corn and two gravity feeders that have antlermax in them. I use antler max 22% late winter until late fall and 16% from late fall to late winter. The antlermax is super expensive to do year round but as said above you need to keep from making drastic changes to their diet. The antlermax is always available and they self regulate. Sometimes they hit it a lot and others not so much. This week I went through 50 pounds in one feeder and 300 pounds in another.

I also try to shoot predators when they are in season and when I see them. I wouldn’t say that I focus on predator hunting but I spend 2-3 weekends a month at my cabin so there is alot of opportunity to see predators.

I also regulate hunting on my property only taking a few deer a year. I let kids and seniors hunt and one special permit holder a year hunt.

I have definitely seen the deer numbers increase over the last ten years. Antler size has increased. I think antler size increase is probably a combination of good food, water, reduced hunting pressure and selective harvest of larger deer not just any deer. The biggest increase I have seen is in the number of twin fawns born and that survive through the winter.

One thing that I do that I really think helps is place all of my feeders and water sources in the open areas, not in thick brush or trees. I think this helps to not create an ambush point for predators. The deer can see anything coming and have 360 degrees worth of escape routes.

Speaking of escape routes I also have areas of cover not just for deer but for birds, squirrels and chipmunks. Small brush piles of downed tree limbs. This gives the smaller animals and birds a place to live and hide. They also benefit from my supplemental feeding. The number of birds, quail m, chukar, magpies, stellar jays, woodpeckers and tons of others has massively increased. Squirrels chipmunks, mice, voles, pack rats, marmots, skunks badgers too. With all of the voles and mice I have also see the number of bull snakes and rattle snakes increase. It really seems to be a balanced ecosystem but it takes a ton of work and money.

On average I go through a pallet of antlermax a month, 10-15 selenium blocks a year and 10 bags of cob a month, two gallons of weed killer concentrate a year and 1,000 pine seedlings a year so it gets pretty expensive.

I would say the easiest things everyone can do to improve the deer herds are selenium blocks, water, shoot predators and try to shoot older age class deer.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 11, 2024, 09:42:53 AM: What is really tough to gauge is how many deer there are in an area. They can cover a few square miles pretty easy. I have bucks that disappear during season and other bucks that just appear out of nowhere during season.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 11, 2024, 11:58:25 AM: Quote from: Rainier10 on February 11, 2024, 09:42:53 AM
What is really tough to gauge is how many deer there are in an area. They can cover a few square miles pretty easy. I have bucks that disappear during season and other bucks that just appear out of nowhere during season.

I have similar experiences.
I may have one big buck that will only shows on cam a handful of times a year.
I just believe that my camera is not his core area.

How much is that antlermax a bag?

I also thought this artical was interesting.
Antler growth/overall herd health.
Like I was thinking, weather and climate play a role.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/hunting/the-keys-to-deer-antler-growth/

Someone like me that doesn't,or can't supplement all winter/public land hunter.
I'm pretty much dependent on weather providing available forage.
According to the article,easy winter,better shape coming out of winter,with a rainy spring.
Will help overall health,and antler growth.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 11, 2024, 01:28:09 PM: I have chosen my land very carefully and bought land that held deer before I purchased. It’s also adjacent to DNR and NF increasing the amount of area and wildlife.

I think good land is where it all starts. You can improve poor land but it is always easier to start with an advantage. There is land near me that deer utilize and pass through from time to time certain area of the DNR and national forest as well but most of the stuff that I have bought has deer and elk on it regularly.

Weather is the one thing I can’t control. Hard winters I’m sure my supplements help. Easy winters, not so much. Dry springs my supplants help, wet springs and good browse growth not so much. I don’t actually pray for dry or wet weather. Wet springs are great for antler growth but terrible for turkeys and other birds. The one thing I do pray for is no wildfires. I had a pretty good place before the fire. I lost it all and it was like the surface of the moon. When everything came back wildlife numbers skyrocketed. I do and will continue to work to reduce ground fuel on my property in an effort to prevent the disastrous wildfire we had.

Another thing about the land that I have bought I haven’t developed any of it. All around me development is happening, reducing the amount of good habitat concentrating animals onto my undeveloped land.

So there are a ton of factors out of my control and maybe those are why the deer numbers are good but there is no way I’m stopping what I’m doing just in case that is the difference maker.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 11, 2024, 04:11:01 PM: There is a plant called winterfat. It will grow easily in mule deer areas and is long lived. It is a sagey looking plant that provides nutrition to all kinds of ungulates through the winter, literally where its name comes from. I'm sure you have seen it before in dryland and scabrock areas. It looks close to a few other plants also though. It gets cotton seed tufts on it is one way to tell. It's not cheap to buy seed but you can get large plugs to plant and you can divide plugs to plant smaller bunches in areas as well.

https://www.naturesseed.com/winterfat/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_aGuBhACEiwAly57McpXyV33AEdPVA0vYMAZi_f3OC-fBOoZhJrlISG0gldzbwzklCUQohoCW68QAvD_BwE

https://plantsofthewild.com/product-category/shrubs-under-six-feet/winterfat/
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 11, 2024, 08:08:58 PM: Quote from: LDennis24 on February 11, 2024, 04:11:01 PM
There is a plant called winterfat. It will grow easily in mule deer areas and is long lived. It is a sagey looking plant that provides nutrition to all kinds of ungulates through the winter, literally where its name comes from. I'm sure you have seen it before in dryland and scabrock areas. It looks close to a few other plants also though. It gets cotton seed tufts on it is one way to tell. It's not cheap to buy seed but you can get large plugs to plant and you can divide plugs to plant smaller bunches in areas as well.

https://www.naturesseed.com/winterfat/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_aGuBhACEiwAly57McpXyV33AEdPVA0vYMAZi_f3OC-fBOoZhJrlISG0gldzbwzklCUQohoCW68QAvD_BwE

https://plantsofthewild.com/product-category/shrubs-under-six-feet/winterfat/

I have seen that plant somewhere,now you got me thinking on something I'll never remember.lol :chuckle:
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 11, 2024, 09:18:14 PM: Quote from: LDennis24 on February 11, 2024, 04:11:01 PM
There is a plant called winterfat. It will grow easily in mule deer areas and is long lived. It is a sagey looking plant that provides nutrition to all kinds of ungulates through the winter, literally where its name comes from. I'm sure you have seen it before in dryland and scabrock areas. It looks close to a few other plants also though. It gets cotton seed tufts on it is one way to tell. It's not cheap to buy seed but you can get large plugs to plant and you can divide plugs to plant smaller bunches in areas as well.

https://www.naturesseed.com/winterfat/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_aGuBhACEiwAly57McpXyV33AEdPVA0vYMAZi_f3OC-fBOoZhJrlISG0gldzbwzklCUQohoCW68QAvD_BwE

https://plantsofthewild.com/product-category/shrubs-under-six-feet/winterfat/
plants of the wild is awesome. Thst is where I get all of my pine seedlings.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: nwwanderer on February 12, 2024, 06:06:14 AM: Kathy at Plants of the Wild, exceptional resource
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 07:59:24 AM: I heard this somewhere,that when the deer have that beautiful buck skin color in the spring to early summer. Is when available forage is at is peak for the year.
Then in the fall they change back to that dull grey color again,is when they transition back to holding fat reserve for the winter.

Just what I heard somewhere.

Kinda like that buck in my avatar,bright buck skin color.
You can look at a deer sometimes and tell what's going on in the plant world.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 12, 2024, 08:12:47 AM: Quote from: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 07:59:24 AM
I heard this somewhere,that when the deer have that beautiful buck skin color in the spring to early summer. Is when available forage is at is peak for the year.
Then in the fall they change back to that dull grey color again,is when they transition back to holding fat reserve for the winter.

Just what I heard somewhere.

Kinda like that buck in my avatar,bright buck skin color.

While that's basically true it's only relative to the fact that they grow a winter coat at the end of the summer starting when they basically start shedding velvet. It all happens at the same time. Velvet sheds, winter guard hair starts growing in and they change habits to prep for the leaves falling and some plants that they relied on going dormant. Willow leaves BTW are also another natural wormer for animals. Willow trees grow easily and deer, moose and elk love to eat them. My sheep stare up at the trees when the wind blows and chase after the falling leaves like little foot from the land before time! A tree star! :chuckle:
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 08:15:46 AM: Quote from: LDennis24 on February 12, 2024, 08:12:47 AM
Quote from: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 07:59:24 AM
I heard this somewhere,that when the deer have that beautiful buck skin color in the spring to early summer. Is when available forage is at is peak for the year.
Then in the fall they change back to that dull grey color again,is when they transition back to holding fat reserve for the winter.

Just what I heard somewhere.

Kinda like that buck in my avatar,bright buck skin color.

While that's basically true it's only relative to the fact that they grow a winter coat at the end of the summer starting when they basically start shedding velvet. It all happens at the same time. Velvet sheds, winter guard hair starts growing in and they change habits to prep for the leaves falling and some plants that they relied on going dormant. Willow leaves BTW are also another natural wormer for animals. Willow trees grow easily and deer, moose and elk love to eat them. My sheep stare up at the trees when the wind blows and chase after the falling leaves like little foot from the land before time! A tree star! :chuckle:

I hear great stuff about Willow.👍
As long as it's not 10 feet tall,it gotta stay short,otherwise it becomes less desireable.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 08:21:11 AM: I've actually been researching different plant types,and how different deer species utilize these plants from season to season.
In my quest to become a better hunter.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: MeepDog on February 12, 2024, 10:12:28 AM: There was a bumper crop of scrub oak acorns this year in around Goldendale. The deer herds seen pretty healthy. The mostly mild winter helped.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 12, 2024, 01:12:03 PM: Quote from: MeepDog on February 12, 2024, 10:12:28 AM
There was a bumper crop of scrub oak acorns this year in around Goldendale. The deer herds seen pretty healthy. The mostly mild winter helped.
Yep! And even with a small amount of snow those acorns will stay fresh just like being in the fridge until the snow melts again and provide alot of calories. I hate that oak trees take so long to produce and won't thrive near me. My soil is alkaline.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 02:34:59 PM: Since we are talking supplement,natures available forage.

What's the deal with the cobalt salt,and sulfur salt.
I thought the blue or yellow salt block was medicated.
Looks like blue is cobalt,yellow is sulfur.
Just kinda asking,cause I have seen both left in the woods for deer and Elk.
Not by myself.
Are these good for deer and Elk,no difference than any other salt.
Is there benefits.

Google says.....

Cobalt is this.
helps cattle, sheep, and goats synthesize vitamin B12 and plays a role in thermoregulation, intermediary metabolism, and reproductive growth and development.

Sulfur is this.
Sulfur is required for proper development of protein, cartilage, bones and tendons.

I'm just gonna assume the guys using the sulfur block are trying to increase antler growth.
While the guys using cobalt are trying to increase reproductive growth.

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Can anyone school me ,or clue me in.
Or is this new to any of you.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: nwwanderer on February 12, 2024, 03:16:04 PM: Cobalt, along with several other micros, are supplemented to meet requirements of production animals. Deer can also benefit. Sulfur is important but usually does not need to be supplemented. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic. If you are fertilizing plots or pastures with gypsum, CaSO4, you are supplying Ca and sulfur and not promoting acid soils. If your soil is very basic, high pH, Ammonium sulfate for nitrogen will help lower pH and supply sulfur for plants and animals.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 03:42:23 PM: Quote from: nwwanderer on February 12, 2024, 03:16:04 PM
Cobalt, along with several other micros, are supplemented to meet requirements of production animals. Deer can also benefit. Sulfur is important but usually does not need to be supplemented. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic. If you are fertilizing plots or pastures with gypsum, CaSO4, you are supplying Ca and sulfur and not promoting acid soils. If your soil is very basic, high pH, Ammonium sulfate for nitrogen will help lower pH and supply sulfur for plants and animals.

Thanks for the response 👍

Ya I been researching it on Google for a few here .

The colbalt is found in almost all trace mineral salt.
I assume the blue colbalt salt blocks have a much higher contration of cobalt.

Then the sulfur blocks yellow salt block.
I'm reading all kinds of rumors on those, everything from bigger racks,helping with ticks,just all kinds of stuff.

But like you just said is a mineral that isn't really needed.

I was just curious,cause I have seen both used in the woods before.(not by me)
I was at the feed store today, decided to stick with the big 6 blocks,which seems like a good trace mineral mixture.

Thanks for responding.👍
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: DeerThug on February 12, 2024, 05:18:21 PM: Around Yakima lower country they are fat and happy. Went on a short shed hunt yesterday and saw ~ 100ish on the winter range. In just a couple of hours. Lots of twins.

No sheds though - ton of boot tracks so I had the right idea just a day late - dollar short.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 12, 2024, 05:39:04 PM: Yes cobalt helps ruminants and ungulates produce B12 to feed red blood cells and keep from becoming anemic. White muscle disease is something that also affects animals that are deficient in Vitamin E and Selenium. Selenium is probably the best and most important salt you can put out anywhere in the northwest. It is what they need most in all of Eastern Washington. This is the sulfur I was talking about that you can add a cup of to some 50 lbs or so of salt and it will help increase milk production for does and cows. Somehow it increases the quality of milk produced by the mother also. Just make sure it's regular sulfur powder with no additives.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 12, 2024, 05:41:10 PM: You may be finding blocks that are put out by cattleman for cows on leased land.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 06:03:22 PM: Quote from: Rainier10 on February 12, 2024, 05:41:10 PM
You may be finding blocks that are put out by cattleman for cows on leased land.

I'm 💯 percent that these are hunters salt block,I have found cattle lease salt blocks.
They where all a red type salt block,with a cow trail,they usually throw those near there loading ramp or correl.
Spots where I found these color blocks have no cattle.
They look like this.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 12, 2024, 06:43:01 PM: I will say I was just curious about the color blocks.
After seeing them on multiple occasions, multiple locations.
I don't really think it makes a huge difference,salt is salt.
Feed store could of been out of normal block that day.
Deer I seen in different areas ,looked like deer.

I have to do more research,see if name brand mineral rocks,have hi amount of sulfur or cobalt.
I'm using that big 6 for now. So it's just for kicks. Sulfur is in some of the name brand products, didn't really see colbalt.
Research done,yup feed store is where it's at.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: nwwanderer on February 14, 2024, 06:41:03 AM: West Texas livestock grower has great review of salt blocks, 2020 I think. Google colored salt blocks
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: hunter399 on February 14, 2024, 08:09:30 AM: Quote from: nwwanderer on February 14, 2024, 06:41:03 AM
West Texas livestock grower has great review of salt blocks, 2020 I think. Google colored salt blocks
Ya there's a green one too,sellium or whatever it's called.
I've also seen that one out in the woods as well.
I'm just going with trace mineral,and not all those color blocks.
I can say without a doubt,I had just regular red trace mineral salt in the same areas as I seen the color blocks.
Looked like deer and Elk was still hitting mine pretty hard.
I don't think it makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: PNWheckle on February 16, 2024, 10:42:21 AM: Anyone here ever plant clover or anything like they do out east for whitetail? If so what do you use? I’m on the west side so the target would be blacktails

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Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: LDennis24 on February 16, 2024, 02:39:06 PM: Quote from: PNWheckle on February 16, 2024, 10:42:21 AM
Anyone here ever plant clover or anything like they do out east for whitetail? If so what do you use? I’m on the west side so the target would be blacktails

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yellow sweet clover would be good. It is pretty hardy. It gets tall and if planted over a big enough area provides cover for the deer also. This blend is perfect for blacktails and is pretty cheap. Even grown in the Willamette Valley!

https://a.co/d/hS6jTkW
Title: Re: Are your deer herds healthy?
Post by: nwwanderer on February 17, 2024, 05:06:43 AM: If you plant the warm season stuff, corn and others, pick the shortest season, days to maturity, you can find and do not expect a bunch of yield. Just not enough heat and moisture in the summer here