Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 10:08:21 AM
Whats your opinion.....
are archery success rates too high, and we are dwindling the resource.
Technology kicking us in the butt
Native American harvest taking more of the resource than is sustainable
Wolves in the area (some say they arent) making a bigger impact
hoof rot here?
Ticks?
Lice?
I am all for manageing a resource and if cuts need to be made, fine but..... kinda wondering on this one
Post by: Special T on February 23, 2024, 10:24:32 AM
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 10:59:46 AM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 23, 2024, 11:11:32 AM
Further decline in Yakima archery permits for bulls
Whats your opinion.....
are archery success rates too high, and we are dwindling the resource.
Technology kicking us in the butt
Native American harvest taking more of the resource than is sustainable
Wolves in the area (some say they arent) making a bigger impact
hoof rot here?
Ticks?
Lice?
I am all for manageing a resource and if cuts need to be made, fine but..... kinda wondering on this one
Where are you seeing less archery permits for bulls in Yakima. I’ve looked at the cr 102 and don’t see it, am I missing something?
That being said the biologists are saying we have a bull to cow ratio of 13 to 100 for the past couple years and we’re having a relatively easy winter again. The herd has been above objective, I don’t see why there aren’t more permits for cows and bulls. Archery success on the cow permits is really low as well.
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 11:35:26 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 23, 2024, 12:48:54 PM
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 23, 2024, 12:59:44 PM
It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning. We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues. I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio. 13:100 is not great, not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little. We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions.Fantastic post.
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
Post by: Tbar on February 23, 2024, 01:07:50 PM
It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning. We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues. I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio. 13:100 is not great, not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little. We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions.Fantastic post.
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
In an apr unit post season ratios need more info on structure to assess biological needs.
Post by: dreamingbig on February 23, 2024, 02:19:24 PM
Me too. Consistent trail camera monitoring shows that a I can find all the bulls or b there is much more than 13 to 100. I will go with B.It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning. We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues. I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio. 13:100 is not great, not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little. We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions.Fantastic post.
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 23, 2024, 03:31:32 PM
Give me a bio for 5 days and I bet I'll change their mind...
Conservatively I'd say numbers are closer to 20... probably better.
So let's say it's 17. That's 4 extra per 100. That would pencil out to an extra 20-30 bull tags per unit.. easily sustainable. That's not even considering success rates...or lack of.
And I really wish archery would go back to cow or spike. We weren't killing that many cows...unless I draw a permit I'm not even elk hunting anymore...not for a unicorn.
Post by: hughjorgan on February 23, 2024, 03:48:39 PM
I had a different document than the link you posted which I think was the 102. I'll see if I can find it, Kinda limited as I am at work.
I found it, didn’t scroll far enough in that link I posted…
I am in agreement with what everyone else is saying as well, plenty of bulls and cows. I think a big problem if you read that status and trends put out on a yearly basis is they didn’t do surveys in 2014, 2015, 2018, 2020, and 2021 due to mild winters. If we had that many mild winters in the past decade with another mild winter this year how can this herd be doing so poorly? We all know this to not be the case. Then when they doing their surveys they are coming up with low bull to cow ratios and now we are holding at the lower end of recommended bull to cow ratio.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 23, 2024, 07:51:03 PM
lots of word salad but, I wanna know how Tbar comes up with the native harvest REAL numbers? Really? He’s a native and doesn’t even know what the native harvest is in the 346 unit. Even our spokesperson for the yakama tribe refuses to give us solid numbers… wonder why.It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning. We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues. I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio. 13:100 is not great, not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little. We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions.Fantastic post.
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
Post by: hughjorgan on February 23, 2024, 07:57:13 PM
Post by: Tbar on February 23, 2024, 08:09:53 PM
Post by: Sunbkpk on February 23, 2024, 08:17:35 PM
I expect at this rate to not get a bull permit in Yakima again.
Post by: Sunbkpk on February 23, 2024, 08:21:55 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on February 23, 2024, 08:26:04 PM
The bulls aren’t going to come down on a mild winter either so unless they get out and really survey the dark timber by air how the heck are they going to count them?I had a different document than the link you posted which I think was the 102. I'll see if I can find it, Kinda limited as I am at work.
I found it, didn’t scroll far enough in that link I posted…
I am in agreement with what everyone else is saying as well, plenty of bulls and cows. I think a big problem if you read that status and trends put out on a yearly basis is they didn’t do surveys in 2014, 2015, 2018, 2020, and 2021 due to mild winters. If we had that many mild winters in the past decade with another mild winter this year how can this herd be doing so poorly? We all know this to not be the case. Then when they doing their surveys they are coming up with low bull to cow ratios and now we are holding at the lower end of recommended bull to cow ratio.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on February 23, 2024, 08:35:56 PM
..
Post by: hughjorgan on February 23, 2024, 08:58:49 PM
Honestly, quit shooting cows.
..
That’s what was done in the last season setting process. Were back to objective herd wise and bull to cow and their still taking opportunity from us
Post by: Slamadoo on February 23, 2024, 09:45:05 PM
I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.
I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.
The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.
They could definitely give us more bull permits.
I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 24, 2024, 08:53:03 AM
Long story short...I'd be very interested in that data and curious where you found ANY data at all on Predator based calf mortality as I've never been able to find any. Admittedly my google-fu is not the strongest :chuckle:
I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.
I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.
The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.
They could definitely give us more bull permits.
I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
Post by: Dan-o on February 24, 2024, 09:07:58 AM
Long story short...I'd be very interested in that data and curious where you found ANY data at all on Predator based calf mortality as I've never been able to find any. Admittedly my google-fu is not the strongest :chuckle:
I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.
I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.
The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.
They could definitely give us more bull permits.
I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
I'd also like to see that data or any studies.
I've looked a few times, but haven't found any studies.
Post by: jackelope on February 24, 2024, 09:31:43 AM
lots of word salad but, I wanna know how Tbar comes up with the native harvest REAL numbers? Really? He’s a native and doesn’t even know what the native harvest is in the 346 unit. Even our spokesperson for the yakama tribe refuses to give us solid numbers… wonder why.It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning. We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues. I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio. 13:100 is not great, not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little. We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions.Fantastic post.
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
What does Tbar have to do with the Yakama tribe and how would you expect him to know numbers? Just because he's native? Where did you see him come up with any harvest numbers at all?
Probably one of the most logical comments in this thread really.
Post by: Bob33 on February 24, 2024, 09:57:09 AM
There was a study in the Blue Mountains a few years back.Long story short...I'd be very interested in that data and curious where you found ANY data at all on Predator based calf mortality as I've never been able to find any. Admittedly my google-fu is not the strongest :chuckle:
I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.
I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.
The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.
They could definitely give us more bull permits.
I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
https://nwsportsmanmag.com/some-details-from-year-2-of-blues-elk-calf-mortality-study-out/#:~:text=In%20response%20to%20that%20dangerously,4%20to%20allow%20hunters%20to
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 24, 2024, 10:04:07 AM
yes but this discussion is about the Yakima pmu not the blues.There was a study in the Blue Mountains a few years back.Long story short...I'd be very interested in that data and curious where you found ANY data at all on Predator based calf mortality as I've never been able to find any. Admittedly my google-fu is not the strongest :chuckle:
I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.
I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.
The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.
They could definitely give us more bull permits.
I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
https://nwsportsmanmag.com/some-details-from-year-2-of-blues-elk-calf-mortality-study-out/#:~:text=In%20response%20to%20that%20dangerously,4%20to%20allow%20hunters%20to
Post by: Special T on February 24, 2024, 10:06:24 AM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 24, 2024, 10:32:10 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on February 24, 2024, 10:52:19 AM
Post by: jackelope on February 24, 2024, 10:58:10 AM
Tbar is more versed on the issue that almost anyone else on this issue. He may/ may not have seen the Datta but his insights should always make you pay attention. :twocents:
This is where I'm at. No offense to anyone else on the forum, but he's probably more versed than almost anyone participating here.
Post by: Dan-o on February 24, 2024, 11:03:39 AM
Tbar is more versed on the issue that almost anyone else on this issue. He may/ may not have seen the Datta but his insights should always make you pay attention. :twocents:
This is where I'm at. No offense to anyone else on the forum, but he's probably more versed than almost anyone participating here.
Agreed.
He brings facts, data and an educated opinion.
I'll always read his posts carefully, and I cringe when people insult him out of reflex.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 24, 2024, 11:09:47 AM
The Yakima herd was brought up, and there is no records that anyone knows of when it comes to the yakama tribal kills.lots of word salad but, I wanna know how Tbar comes up with the native harvest REAL numbers? Really? He’s a native and doesn’t even know what the native harvest is in the 346 unit. Even our spokesperson for the yakama tribe refuses to give us solid numbers… wonder why.It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning. We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues. I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio. 13:100 is not great, not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little. We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions.Fantastic post.
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators. This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes. According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this.
Sustainable is a great question. Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags, landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource.
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
What does Tbar have to do with the Yakama tribe and how would you expect him to know numbers? Just because he's native? Where did you see him come up with any harvest numbers at all?
Probably one of the most logical comments in this thread really.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 24, 2024, 11:11:46 AM
:yeah:yes but this discussion is about the Yakima pmu not the blues.There was a study in the Blue Mountains a few years back.Long story short...I'd be very interested in that data and curious where you found ANY data at all on Predator based calf mortality as I've never been able to find any. Admittedly my google-fu is not the strongest :chuckle:
I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.
I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.
The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.
They could definitely give us more bull permits.
I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
https://nwsportsmanmag.com/some-details-from-year-2-of-blues-elk-calf-mortality-study-out/#:~:text=In%20response%20to%20that%20dangerously,4%20to%20allow%20hunters%20to
Post by: time2hunt on February 24, 2024, 11:13:55 AM
Yakima man poached 42 elk
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=9945&share_tid=284840&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhunting-washington%2Ecom%2Fsmf%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D284840&share_type=t&link_source=app
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Special T on February 24, 2024, 11:27:23 AM
I KNOW some tribes are doing BETTER work than the WDFW.Why? Because they are unencumbered by the political trappings we are. Why would they share information except with each other? Unless it solves a problem I wouldn't. I still find it frustrating like everyone else.
Post by: hughjorgan on February 24, 2024, 01:50:46 PM
When it comes to co management information should flow both ways. Tribes are not the elephant in the room because of their take or for any other reason. But if we want sound wildlife management it makes sense to share harvest data to best manage the resource.
Post by: Slamadoo on February 24, 2024, 01:58:36 PM
Post by: Special T on February 24, 2024, 02:27:51 PM
I don’t trust our commission to follow the science before their eyes, the biologists from what I’ve seen present at the meetings are very professional and have made a good case based on science and data. I’ve personally met and worked out of the same building as one of our Biologists; he is a big time hunter and fisherman. I personally don’t buy the department is pushing or full of a bunch of anti hunters. If that was the case we wouldn’t see wildlife for all and Washington wildlife first pushing their extremist minority view through appointments to the commission.
When it comes to co management information should flow both ways. Tribes are not the elephant in the room because of their take or for any other reason. But if we want sound wildlife management it makes sense to share harvest data to best manage the resource.
The department doesn't have to be a majority of folks that are anti hunters. It only needs a few folks that follow the Wilgus predator science. A handful of employees can handicap even the director, whom I think is a sportsmen ally. I too know and have talked to some great WDFW employees who got the issue or problem I was discussing. Unfortunately they had no pull because they were a cog in the machine... controlled by the best science that was directed by ignorant or disingenuous employees.
Post by: hughjorgan on February 24, 2024, 03:32:13 PM
Having trouble with my attachment. Help!
Did you resize it?
Post by: hughjorgan on February 24, 2024, 03:34:41 PM
I don’t trust our commission to follow the science before their eyes, the biologists from what I’ve seen present at the meetings are very professional and have made a good case based on science and data. I’ve personally met and worked out of the same building as one of our Biologists; he is a big time hunter and fisherman. I personally don’t buy the department is pushing or full of a bunch of anti hunters. If that was the case we wouldn’t see wildlife for all and Washington wildlife first pushing their extremist minority view through appointments to the commission.
When it comes to co management information should flow both ways. Tribes are not the elephant in the room because of their take or for any other reason. But if we want sound wildlife management it makes sense to share harvest data to best manage the resource.
The department doesn't have to be a majority of folks that are anti hunters. It only needs a few folks that follow the Wilgus predator science. A handful of employees can handicap even the director, whom I think is a sportsmen ally. I too know and have talked to some great WDFW employees who got the issue or problem I was discussing. Unfortunately they had no pull because they were a cog in the machine... controlled by the best science that was directed by ignorant or disingenuous employees.
Valid point.
Post by: Slamadoo on February 24, 2024, 04:48:42 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on February 24, 2024, 05:16:55 PM
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Post by: Slamadoo on February 24, 2024, 05:40:55 PM
Post by: Dan-o on February 24, 2024, 06:14:49 PM
Bull:Cow and Calf:Cow ratios. Yakima Herd.
Thanks!
I'd seen this before but I couldn't find it again.
Post by: Tbar on February 24, 2024, 06:30:46 PM
Bull:Cow and Calf:Cow ratios. Yakima Herd.
Thanks for this @Slamadoo . Where were these numbers derived? Feed lot survey? Aerial?
I think this supports the thought of "in Karl we rust", the herd is in decent shape. I'm still not sure what would drive the tag reduction but an outside assessment would really say there is no elephant in the room and that the herd is stable. Maybe trying to avoid boom bust management?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 24, 2024, 06:52:04 PM
I last drew a bull permit in a Yakima unit in 2017 with over 125 archery permits. This year there is 4 permits. Yet the over all herd numbers have barely budged.
North of a 95% reduction. They still have the 2 quality rifle permits for the same unit. Makes you scratch your head more than a little.
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Post by: Mtnwalker on February 24, 2024, 07:09:22 PM
The tag reduction started about 5 years ago with no real explanation.
I last drew a bull permit in a Yakima unit in 2017 with over 125 archery permits. This year there is 4 permits. Yet the over all herd numbers have barely budged.
North of a 95% reduction. They still have the 2 quality rifle permits for the same unit. Makes you scratch your head more than a little.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I sent them an email last fall asking what the justification for 90%+ bull tag reductions was in the Yakima units and the bio responded to me citing the bull to cow ratios being slightly below objective and having to err on the side of caution. Absolutely ridiculous
Post by: hughjorgan on February 24, 2024, 07:50:40 PM
The tag reduction started about 5 years ago with no real explanation.
I last drew a bull permit in a Yakima unit in 2017 with over 125 archery permits. This year there is 4 permits. Yet the over all herd numbers have barely budged.
North of a 95% reduction. They still have the 2 quality rifle permits for the same unit. Makes you scratch your head more than a little.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Is this not the same year they took cows away from us as well?
Post by: Special T on February 24, 2024, 09:03:09 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 25, 2024, 06:09:07 AM
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 09:24:07 AM
Harvest represents the areas of BMU6 that overlap the Yakima and Clockum Herds.
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 09:28:49 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on February 25, 2024, 10:05:11 AM
5-6 years ago we had a drought and bat winter that caused winter loss and recruitment problems. That was the source of the elk cow tags for archery. :twocents:And they have trended down since. Shouldn’t they come back with herd recovery?
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Post by: dreamingbig on February 25, 2024, 10:07:28 AM
Statewide Bear HarvestBut a lot of factors to bear harvest. More people are hunting bears given loss of other opportunities.
Cougar harvest chart?
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Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 25, 2024, 10:12:05 AM
I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 10:12:47 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on February 25, 2024, 10:21:24 AM
Yeah that! My conspiracy theory hat says they were requested to leave the bull harvest for other user groups but I don’t have any proof. Either that or the biologist/department doesn’t want to increase permits. Because the herd size says it would be supported.I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
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Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 10:46:59 AM
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 10:49:38 AM
I got all this data from the department. It took me a while to find some of it, but that's where I got it.
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 10:56:00 AM
Here is the statewide cougar harvest data I dug up.
Post by: Tbar on February 25, 2024, 10:59:52 AM
Yeah that! My conspiracy theory hat says they were requested to leave the bull harvest for other user groups but I don’t have any proof. Either that or the biologist/department doesn’t want to increase permits. Because the herd size says it would be supported.I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
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Cool story bro! You realize there are unlimited otc bull tags right? Again it comes back to harvest schemes. If you want long term stability bull harvest is always a preference.
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 11:04:41 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 25, 2024, 11:06:36 AM
@ TbarThanks! Appreciate it. I do think some of those numbers are wonky. Feed lot surveys may be a partial explanation. Either way I appreciate your dive into data and sharing.
I got all this data from the department. It took me a while to find some of it, but that's where I got it.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 25, 2024, 11:19:15 AM
They issued 3 times as many as usual...well over a thousand cows where killed that year on special permits. Never made sense.
And seems relative to low calf numbers the following year's and limited spike encounters.
Post by: Slamadoo on February 25, 2024, 11:20:12 AM
There are less spikes for hunters because an increased predator population is eating them as yearlings.
I don't think it's a coincidence that around 2016-2018 all the data shows decreasing calf numbers, fewer spike bulls being harvested, and substantial increases to bear and Cougar harvest (most of which is incidental from deer and elk hunters).
Since 2015 Cougar harvest has never dropped below 200 and has seen 5 of the 6 highest harvest numbers in the last 30 years.
Since 2014 Black Bear harvest has never dropped below 1400 and has seen 4 of the 5 highest harvest numbers in the last 30 years.
Again, mostly from incidental take from fewer hunters.
Post by: Katmai Guy on February 25, 2024, 12:07:00 PM
Wasn't 2016 the year of the mass cow permits if I recall.
They issued 3 times as many as usual...well over a thousand cows where killed that year on special permits. Never made sense.
And seems relative to low calf numbers the following year's and limited spike encounters.
Also, if you can't get your bull numbers up, the easiest way to get your ratio inline is to reduce the number of cows.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 25, 2024, 04:19:47 PM
I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
Post by: Dan-o on February 25, 2024, 04:21:41 PM
I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
That's a really good point. Nock.
Post by: dreamingbig on February 25, 2024, 05:58:13 PM
What is his point?I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
That's a really good point. Nock.
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Post by: jackelope on March 03, 2024, 06:35:10 AM
What is his point?I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
That's a really good point. Nock.
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Sounds like his point is that regardless of what the wdfw does or says in this situation, people are going to complain about it.
Post by: Dan-o on March 03, 2024, 07:35:21 AM
What is his point?I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
That's a really good point. Nock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like his point is that regardless of what the wdfw does or says in this situation, people are going to complain about it.
Exactly.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 03, 2024, 09:21:57 AM
What is his point?I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
That's a really good point. Nock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like his point is that regardless of what the wdfw does or says in this situation, people are going to complain about it.
Exactly.
In this case it is warranted. Go look at their data from the status and trends reports they do annually. Their methodology for estimated herd numbers has not been sound. They aren’t surveying from the air in mild years but expect to get accurate data from the few elk that did come down to the feed stations for their bull to cow ratios and calf to cow ratios. They’ve been telling us the herd is doing poorly because of this. They estimated the herd at less than 8000 strong coming off an easy winter and then a few years later they are shocked when they actually do a survey and find the elk herd to be at 11500. It contradicts their data points in a huge way! They claim that 30:100(calf/cow) is stable the herd isn’t growing or declining and is growing if above that number. It is 12-20:100(bull/cow) and just like their calf:cow numbers they have obviously been way off on those numbers as well IMO. The science can’t be correct that we had a record low number of calf:cow but in a few short years the Yakima elk herd was able to grow 4-5k elk. If their calf:cow ratio was so far off then that leads me to believe the same on their low counts of bull. And to note the Yakima herd hasn’t experienced big winter kills do to the feeding stations and half our winters in the last decade have been mild!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 03, 2024, 10:50:47 AM
absolutely spot on! I've been shouting for a decade about their lazy and completely unscientific counts.What is his point?I have my own thoughts on all this, and they don't really align with what I'm about to say, :o I just always try to look at issues from multiple Perspectives.If by fairly ok you mean the Yakima herd is the largest its ever been since re-introduction then you are correct :chuckle:
Many deer herds are at critical levels, and we complain about WDFW management.
Yakima/Colockum elk herds appear to be doing fairly Ok, and we complain about WDFW management. (Even though they may be doing something we dont like...in trying to maintain a stable population)
Thats all!
I don't honestly know much about the Yakima herd other than what I read, hence the fairly ok,....not in the dumps. My point is we gonna beotch no matter what the WDFW does.
That's a really good point. Nock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like his point is that regardless of what the wdfw does or says in this situation, people are going to complain about it.
Exactly.
In this case it is warranted. Go look at their data from the status and trends reports they do annually. Their methodology for estimated herd numbers has not been sound. They aren’t surveying from the air in mild years but expect to get accurate data from the few elk that did come down to the feed stations for their bull to cow ratios and calf to cow ratios. They’ve been telling us the herd is doing poorly because of this. They estimated the herd at less than 8000 strong coming off an easy winter and then a few years later they are shocked when they actually do a survey and find the elk herd to be at 11500. It contradicts their data points in a huge way! They claim that 30:100(calf/cow) is stable the herd isn’t growing or declining and is growing if above that number. It is 12-20:100(bull/cow) and just like their calf:cow numbers they have obviously been way off on those numbers as well IMO. The science can’t be correct that we had a record low number of calf:cow but in a few short years the Yakima elk herd was able to grow 4-5k elk. If their calf:cow ratio was so far off then that leads me to believe the same on their low counts of bull. And to note the Yakima herd hasn’t experienced big winter kills do to the feeding stations and half our winters in the last decade have been mild!
Post by: jackelope on March 03, 2024, 03:32:22 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 03, 2024, 05:00:52 PM
There is no such thing as "perfect science", at best it's a guess.
So, do we trust WDFW, the commish ( :chuckle:... its a joke) lighten up, or the word from hunters, who are all over the board on strategies?
With that being said, I will not share my personal beliefs, doesn't go over well on here some times FWIW
Post by: coachcw on March 04, 2024, 06:39:58 PM
Post by: Special T on March 05, 2024, 08:00:37 AM
Have a user group that's unregulated and one that's over regulated that makes great sense too me ! Go to a total draw system and regulate both sides for Christ sake its 2024 not 1800 . as far as bull counts a large portion of bulls never hit the winter grounds and honestly at what percent do the cows not ger bread ? are there cows of breeding age that arnt caring ?
I was surprised that draw only wasn't proposed this cycle. Also not matter what we say or tantrums we have we cannot do anything about tribal harvest. I have been upset about some individuals as well. Fact is that if the Yakimas actually participated with any real volume we wouldn't have many elk the yakima herd has about as many elk as the tribe has enrolled members. Solutions have to be based of the facts and constrains that we have.
Post by: coachcw on March 05, 2024, 05:38:24 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 05, 2024, 06:51:09 PM
yeah but the guys that kill 20-30 bulls a year is a joke . I was under the impression that when the treaties where set up that the tribes where allowed 50% of the harvest (but i may be wrong ) there diffidently a serious impact in certain gmus bull quality bulls .I believe the treaty also mentions… “in common with”. Yeah ok