Post by: luvmystang67 on March 21, 2024, 02:18:05 PM
So now here comes the debate with no definitive answer, but looking for thoughts and opinions based on some of what I'm considering. I'm thinking of long range hunting for elk as a primary application, alongside just long range shooting for fun, but its got to be somewhat packable.
1) Not considering a 338WM. I've got a 300WM and a 375H&H, I don't need a 338WM and probably don't need another gun generally, but humor me below.
2) I could buy a 338 Lapua or a 338-378 Wby. I'd be handloading primarily. I'm a little of the mind, if you're going to buy a factory rifle and handload, why not buy the bigger badder one, which leans me towards a 338-378. Brass seems to be the only compelling reason to look at a 338 Lapua instead. Am I missing something else? I'm assuming recoil perhaps, but with a brake, I think we're kind of same-same here.
3) If I went build... I think the 338 Norma looks kind of neat. I know, brass isn't as good as the lapua brass, but handloading extra long bullets with "not incredibly long barrels" seems to be kind of this caliber's niche. I'm thinking I can build what is effectively of a 338 Lapua hunting repeater, in a smaller size, with similar performance. But I'm also kind of cheap, so I was trying to figure out if I could find an action from a donor rifle and get a rebarrel in 338 Norma... best idea seems to be a MarkV Weatherby donor, but nobody in north Idaho seems to want to work on a weatherby action (that I have found yet).
4) I go back in forth between "ah heck, just buy the $1600 338-378 from Buds and start shooting" and "wouldn't it be cool if I picked up a donor MarkV action and had a 338 norma barrel thrown on there".
Thoughts?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 21, 2024, 02:35:08 PM
2. What do you think you would gain in performance with the 338-378 over a lapua or your 300 for that matter? And how much real impact will that have on your shooting/hunting?
3. What exactly is the difference in brass from 338 norma and 338 lapua that makes you think 338 lapua brass is better? Lapua makes brass for both, as well as 300 win mag FWIW. Neither works inherently better in shorter or longer barrels.
4. How much shooting have you actually done at long ranges? How much do you intend to? Long range hunting takes lots of practice. Weatherby rifles are ergonomic abominations at best, there are much better choices for shootability at long range. If you are thinking of building a rifle why not put money into the 300 win you already have? What would a 338 do that it cant?
This whole post reminds me of a day at the range when a guy had a 50 bmg thinking that was what he needed to shoot 1000 yards. He shot round after round after round never hitting even a plate at 880 yards. Then he was flabbergasted that my 6mm could hit them consistently. Horsepower is not a replacement for shootability or practice.
Also for the record, i have shot large 338s just enough to realize i dont like them. And dot want one. :chuckle:
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 21, 2024, 02:35:56 PM
Post by: GWP on March 21, 2024, 02:50:25 PM
His 100 yard group was 5" the first 5 shots he put through the 30-378 with factory ammo. He said the gun was "not accurate".
I (and his friend that was with us) watched him flinch from the first shot.
His buddy sat down and shot a 1" group with 5 shots and declined to shoot it any more because it kicked so hard.
I am not sure if the owner ever got to where he could control the 'flinch', as I do not recall going to the range with him after that, but he did always talk about it being a 1000 yard gun. I have sold more than one gun because of the recoil and it causing me to flinch with other lighter rounds.
I hope, before you make any 1000 yard shots on critters, or even 500 yard shots for that matter, that you test out your abilities at a capable range.
I believe Tacoma sportsman and Paul Bunyan both have a long range meet once a month.
Best of luck on your choice of weapon!
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 21, 2024, 03:47:22 PM
1) My 300WM is a 1/12 twist, hardly ideal for larger bullets that are often desired for longer range shooting, 180 grain is about max and even then probably a bit heavier than ideal. Can it shoot 1000? Sure. Should I put a 180 grain bullet from my 300WM on an elk at 1000... starting to get iffy there.
2) Will I practice, or have I? I've practiced at 5-600 yards yes, but most of my guns aren't quite set up for this and also aren't necessarily as accurate as I'd like to begin with. I've taken elk at 500 with a .30-06 with an old 3-9x scope and it took a lot of poorly penetrating bullets to get it down. How on earth am I going to practice at longer range without a setup equipped to do it? And yes, I'm not going to go sight in a 338 lapua at 100 yards and then try to smack an elk at 1000... I'm not a jerk, I promise, and only a jerk would do that.
3) I don't mind getting whalloped by recoil, a sick part of me enjoys it. Maybe I'm making up for being recoil shy as a child and thinking dads .30-06 was the baddest gun in the land.
4) I also just want to, this is going to happen in some capacity, it is really just which one.
Post by: callturner on March 21, 2024, 05:33:28 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 21, 2024, 05:59:46 PM
To answer a few questions...
1) My 300WM is a 1/12 twist, hardly ideal for larger bullets that are often desired for longer range shooting, 180 grain is about max and even then probably a bit heavier than ideal. Can it shoot 1000? Sure. Should I put a 180 grain bullet from my 300WM on an elk at 1000... starting to get iffy there.
2) Will I practice, or have I? I've practiced at 5-600 yards yes, but most of my guns aren't quite set up for this and also aren't necessarily as accurate as I'd like to begin with. I've taken elk at 500 with a .30-06 with an old 3-9x scope and it took a lot of poorly penetrating bullets to get it down. How on earth am I going to practice at longer range without a setup equipped to do it? And yes, I'm not going to go sight in a 338 lapua at 100 yards and then try to smack an elk at 1000... I'm not a jerk, I promise, and only a jerk would do that.
3) I don't mind getting whalloped by recoil, a sick part of me enjoys it. Maybe I'm making up for being recoil shy as a child and thinking dads .30-06 was the baddest gun in the land.
4) I also just want to, this is going to happen in some capacity, it is really just which one.
I think what he’s saying is for you to take the 300 that you have and build a rifle out of it. Maybe not. What do you mean by 180 grains being about max? Do you mean for the 12 twist barrel?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 21, 2024, 06:35:35 PM
:yeah:To answer a few questions...
1) My 300WM is a 1/12 twist, hardly ideal for larger bullets that are often desired for longer range shooting, 180 grain is about max and even then probably a bit heavier than ideal. Can it shoot 1000? Sure. Should I put a 180 grain bullet from my 300WM on an elk at 1000... starting to get iffy there.
2) Will I practice, or have I? I've practiced at 5-600 yards yes, but most of my guns aren't quite set up for this and also aren't necessarily as accurate as I'd like to begin with. I've taken elk at 500 with a .30-06 with an old 3-9x scope and it took a lot of poorly penetrating bullets to get it down. How on earth am I going to practice at longer range without a setup equipped to do it? And yes, I'm not going to go sight in a 338 lapua at 100 yards and then try to smack an elk at 1000... I'm not a jerk, I promise, and only a jerk would do that.
3) I don't mind getting whalloped by recoil, a sick part of me enjoys it. Maybe I'm making up for being recoil shy as a child and thinking dads .30-06 was the baddest gun in the land.
4) I also just want to, this is going to happen in some capacity, it is really just which one.
I think what he’s saying is for you to take the 300 that you have and build a rifle out of it. Maybe not. What do you mean by 180 grains being about max? Do you mean for the 12 twist barrel?
Put some 180-190 bergers in that 300 and see what it can do. At the speed you can shoot them 1000 will not be an issue at least for targets. And likely terminal velocity for bullet upset depending on environmentals.
Post by: jrebel on March 21, 2024, 06:37:25 PM
1. Brass is readily available. Quality brass is readily available.
2. Factory rifles are readily available....and there is a lot to choose from.
3. Price was not going to brake the bank, just incase I didn't like it or didn't shoot it much. Figured I could get my money back out of it if I wanted out a couple years later. If you go custom, you will never recoup your money if you decide you don't like it. I figured if I ended up liking it....I could go custom at a later date.
4. It is just fun saying you own a lapua... :chuckle:
I ended up with a Savage 110 FCP, which sits in a HS precision stock. It is a heavier rifle, but manageable and is easy to shoot with a brake. The savage action also allows me to do a barrel swap without the need of a gunsmith. Figured the action would make a good custom build at a later date should I want to.
I am pushing 260 Hammer Hunter at 2950 fps and it will consistently shoot sub 1" at 300 yards. It is a sub half MOA rifle all day long.
Now...other calibers I looked at but decided against.
338 rum....brass is almost impossible to find. Not that many quality choices for brass either. Price is the same or more expensive than 338 lapua brass.
338-378....Same reasons as the 338 rum.
All the above being said.....If you haven't shot past 600 yards, I'm not sure you can really appreciate how hard it is to read the wind at 600+ yards. Point being....you should be shooting a ton and in different weather conditions before you ever think of shooting at game at those distances. Also...you should never assume your ballistics calculator is accurate at those ranges....verify, verify, verify....and make corrections to your calculator as necessary. 600 yards is easy.....700 yards is very doable....beyond 700 becomes very difficult if there is any wind at all. The difference between a kill and a gut shot.
My next rifle will be a 338 rum or 338 lapua that I push 175 grain Hammer Hunters out of. I will be a speedster.
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 21, 2024, 07:10:50 PM
I was in the same boat a few years back. I ended up with a 338 lapua and this is why....?? (not saying there aren't multiple answers, just what made it easy for me.)
1. Brass is readily available. Quality brass is readily available.
2. Factory rifles are readily available....and there is a lot to choose from.
3. Price was not going to brake the bank, just incase I didn't like it or didn't shoot it much. Figured I could get my money back out of it if I wanted out a couple years later. If you go custom, you will never recoup your money if you decide you don't like it. I figured if I ended up liking it....I could go custom at a later date.
4. It is just fun saying you own a lapua... :chuckle:
I ended up with a Savage 110 FCP, which sits in a HS precision stock. It is a heavier rifle, but manageable and is easy to shoot with a brake. The savage action also allows me to do a barrel swap without the need of a gunsmith. Figured the action would make a good custom build at a later date should I want to.
I am pushing 260 Hammer Hunter at 2950 fps and it will consistently shoot sub 1" at 300 yards. It is a sub half MOA rifle all day long.
Now...other calibers I looked at but decided against.
338 rum....brass is almost impossible to find. Not that many quality choices for brass either. Price is the same or more expensive than 338 lapua brass.
338-378....Same reasons as the 338 rum.
All the above being said.....If you haven't shot past 600 yards, I'm not sure you can really appreciate how hard it is to read the wind at 600+ yards. Point being....you should be shooting a ton and in different weather conditions before you ever think of shooting at game at those distances. Also...you should never assume your ballistics calculator is accurate at those ranges....verify, verify, verify....and make corrections to your calculator as necessary. 600 yards is easy.....700 yards is very doable....beyond 700 becomes very difficult if there is any wind at all. The difference between a kill and a gut shot.
My next rifle will be a 338 rum or 338 lapua that I push 175 grain Hammer Hunters out of. I will be a speedster.
Appreciate the insight!
Post by: elkrack on March 21, 2024, 07:24:13 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 22, 2024, 08:31:19 AM
At 1000 yards funny things happen. If I ever lost an animal at that range with a 300 gr Berger I would know its my fault. With anything less you are going to be wishing you had gone bigger.
My son and buddy have older factory 338-378’s I bedded and dialed in reloads that are as accurate or slightly more so than my lapuas even. But those bottlenecks are finicky to match to dies. My son’s only shoots virgin brass best. You may have to bump back .006 or more to chamber depending on die. Speed will not be faster than a standard Lapua ( 2850 -2880 is a sweet spot for both with rl33).
But if going to the Lapua at 2850 perhaps you consider the Lapua AI getting you to 3000 ? You don’t have to trim brass and can always down load and may find a fast load with dependable H1000 at 2900+ where the lapua is 2800 with it.
With n570 you will be around 2970-3000 .
What version of Lapua AI ? If you go down that rabbit hole see your neighbor in Rathdrum at defensive edge and chamber a 338 Terminator - his version of Lapua AI. I sent my Lapua Ai to him yesterday to be rebarrelled. Replacing 30” carbon with 26” fluted Hart sendero contour which in terminator chambering will still hit 3000 fps with 26” barrel. Brake is titanium 1.2” from Salmon River Solutions N Idaho.
But the 338 Norma is a fine chambering, with n570 and a long seated bullet and 30” barrel you will be hitting 2850 also. Your neighbor HCA chambers a fine one. Hope this helps!
Post by: luvmystang67 on March 22, 2024, 09:38:06 AM
You are right on target with your thinking! I have 338-378, 338 Lapua, 338 Lapua AI, and 338 WM w 215 bergers.
At 1000 yards funny things happen. If I ever lost an animal at that range with a 300 gr Berger I would know its my fault. With anything less you are going to be wishing you had gone bigger.
My son and buddy have older factory 338-378’s I bedded and dialed in reloads that are as accurate or slightly more so than my lapuas even. But those bottlenecks are finicky to match to dies. My son’s only shoots virgin brass best. You may have to bump back .006 or more to chamber depending on die. Speed will not be faster than a standard Lapua ( 2850 -2880 is a sweet spot for both with rl33).
But if going to the Lapua at 2850 perhaps you consider the Lapua AI getting you to 3000 ? You don’t have to trim brass and can always down load and may find a fast load with dependable H1000 at 2900+ where the lapua is 2800 with it.
With n570 you will be around 2970-3000 .
What version of Lapua AI ? If you go down that rabbit hole see your neighbor in Rathdrum at defensive edge and chamber a 338 Terminator - his version of Lapua AI. I sent my Lapua Ai to him yesterday to be rebarrelled. Replacing 30” carbon with 26” fluted Hart sendero contour which in terminator chambering will still hit 3000 fps with 26” barrel. Brake is titanium 1.2” from Salmon River Solutions N Idaho.
But the 338 Norma is a fine chambering, with n570 and a long seated bullet and 30” barrel you will be hitting 2850 also. Your neighbor HCA chambers a fine one. Hope this helps!
Super helpful, might send you a PM
Post by: b23 on March 22, 2024, 03:11:48 PM
Post by: Snakeriver on March 22, 2024, 08:40:50 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 22, 2024, 09:00:29 PM
Have you considered a 338 edge. I built one off a rem 700 action. It shoots 285 grain eldm's at 2850. It shoots incredible. 93 grains of h1000.
And your neighbor in Rathrum invented and named it about 20 years ago - still good!
Post by: mountainman on March 23, 2024, 09:28:21 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 24, 2024, 08:44:00 AM
Post by: Rob on March 24, 2024, 11:07:14 AM
Post by: b23 on March 24, 2024, 12:12:33 PM
The 338-378 is a big long case and you stuff a long 300gr bullet in there seated to 3.750 it kind of neuters the capacity of that big ole 378 case. Not that you need to run one of these things as a repeater especially if you're using it for LR or ELR work but I wouldn't spend any money on a repeater type action to have to use it as a single shot.
My Wby Accumark 338-378 shot decent-ish but only if it was throttled back which made it kind of a turd in the velocity department. As soon as I got much past about a mid level load with the variety of different powders I tried it would start scattering shots all over the paper.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 24, 2024, 05:24:27 PM
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 07, 2024, 09:52:34 AM
Just kidding
But pretty excited. Now I need to spend 2x the rifle to get it glassed and fed. Looks to be an older mark v and too lightweight for my own good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: luvmystang67 on May 30, 2024, 11:02:00 AM
Was finally able to source some nice magnum primers. Got some Rem 9 1/2M, some CCI 250s and some Fed 215Ms. Found some new Norma brass for a somewhat affordable $2/piece. Picked up some 338 ELDM 285gr, 280gr Barnes LRX, 300gr SMK. Played around with VV N570, H1000 and Retumbo. Finally got around to putting it all together with the Trijicon Tenmile that I picked up here on the forum (thanks @cjc23), and went out shooting yesterday. I'm able to get 2900 FPS with the 300gr SMK and 2960 with the 285gr ELDM, and 3020 with the 280gr Barnes LRX.
The best results (using ladder loads, so variant velocities) were with the H1000, Rem 9 1/2Ms and the 285gr ELDM. Those shot about 1" 5-shot group, even at different velocities. The VV N570 provided the best velocities with the 300gr SMKs with no pressure signs up to 105.5gr and 2912 FPS. The Retumbo was a little more sticky on the bolt for the same velocity as the VV N570.
I'm pretty excited about this rifle, especially the H1000 results. With the ELDM bullets at 2960fps, it generates >5,000 ft-lbs at 100 yards, ~4000 ft-lbs at 400 yards, at 1000 yards it still has 2365 ft-lbs of energy. Drop at 500 yards is only 34" (with 200 yard zero). There's no reason this shouldn't be able to kill any animal in North America at 1000 yards.
Compared to my .375 H&H shooting a 270 grain Barnes TSX FB at 2700 FPS: the energy and velocity of the 375 at 300 yards is roughly equivalent to the 338-378 at 1000.
Does my shoulder hurt? Yeah, a little. But its the pain of optimism and excitement. Now I just have to drill into a winning load and practice, practice, practice.
Sidenote: I did want to glass bed it, but my cheap plastic stock that came with it will absolutely not work for that. I was going to buy a new (used) one to bed, and found some pretty good deals at Numrich Gun Parts... instead of buying a used Bell & Carson synthetic stock for $150, I went for a brand new $200 factory weatherby walnut stock... I too have some eye for beauty and couldnt resist. I still have some work to do on it for fit-up as it was meant for a slightly different profile barrel option, but its going to look great.
Sidenote 2: I forgot the tiny allen wrench for the zero stop and I put a 20MOA rail on it, so I had to aim at a target 20MOA below my actual target, which made evaluation of accuracy a little difficult. Will post more when I know more.
Post by: raydog on May 30, 2024, 11:27:42 AM
Post by: Dan-o on May 30, 2024, 11:43:24 AM
That thing delivers an accurate wallop!