Post by: fishngamereaper on May 03, 2024, 06:53:07 PM
Would probably be the only thriving goat population in the West.
Really disappointing to see these catastrophic failures...
https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/few-survivors-remain-after-relocation-to-north-cascades/
Post by: Fidelk on May 03, 2024, 07:16:02 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on May 03, 2024, 09:01:00 PM
I've had a huge male walk past me about 25 feet away while hiking on the Switchback Trail on Hurricane Ridge. Saw him coming my way from a half mile out. I yielded the trail to him, just sat and watched. A week later another hiker was gored and killed by an aggressive male. Beautiful animal.
Wow… did the hiker do you wrong? :chuckle:
Post by: KNOPHISH on May 03, 2024, 09:06:09 PM
Post by: Bareback on May 04, 2024, 06:56:57 AM
The article claims “hunters” introduced the goats, wrong. The government introduced the goats in the interest of hunting.
What would an article be if the term “climate change” wasn’t thrown in? Theoretical reasons for decline, “ Recreation, habitat loss, climate change, disease and predation,.” The last two seem most reasonable. When other populations in the state are doing well, it’s does the climate change/habitat loss merit little justice.
The article seems to be full of finger pointing and the blame game.
But then again I’m may be expecting to much, after all Ta’Leah Van Sistine is an environmental/climate journalist in Everrett.
Post by: raydog on May 04, 2024, 07:40:37 AM
Post by: Fidelk on May 04, 2024, 07:57:02 AM
I've had a huge male walk past me about 25 feet away while hiking on the Switchback Trail on Hurricane Ridge. Saw him coming my way from a half mile out. I yielded the trail to him, just sat and watched. A week later another hiker was gored and killed by an aggressive male. Beautiful animal.
Wow… did the hiker do you wrong? :chuckle:
C'mon, man.......it whar a goat......or, something whiter than Anderson Cooper.......plus, humans can't live at that altitude.
Post by: Special T on May 04, 2024, 08:39:02 AM
I’m thinking the overpopulation of cougars are eating all the goats.
Bingo!
Post by: Sundance on May 04, 2024, 10:06:27 AM
Post by: jstone on May 04, 2024, 10:15:02 AM
Post by: timberhunter on May 04, 2024, 11:30:38 AM
Post by: MR5x5 on May 04, 2024, 01:12:18 PM
What a ridiculous agenda driven puff piece. The author is tool.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 04, 2024, 02:09:24 PM
My beef was, and still is that I’ve never seen 100% scientific proof that mountain goats weren’t native to the Olympics. I never supported to relocation and culling, this only makes my dissatisfaction with the decision stronger.
That is evidence of absence, and it’s considered a logical no go. Just like me asking you to prove that there isn’t a block of cheese orbiting Jupiter.
Archeological evidence showed no sign, or exceeding murky at best, evidence of hunted goats in pre history. There is a book that I own, that I unfortunately haven’t read yet, that argues that goats in fact did inhabit the Olympics in pre-history.
The author is a Washington native and a full professor of anthropology at University of Missouri-Columbia. So one should believe it is based on sound evidence, though not accepted by the majority of other researchers
https://anthropology.missouri.edu/people/lyman
Post by: chukardogs on May 04, 2024, 03:24:07 PM
Post by: Fidelk on May 04, 2024, 04:56:30 PM
Post by: Alchase on May 04, 2024, 05:03:47 PM
No one investigated how they all died?
Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.
Post by: scotsman on May 04, 2024, 05:11:46 PM
Post by: MADMAX on May 04, 2024, 05:12:45 PM
What a bunch of maroons
https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/what-caused-die-off-of-hundreds-mountain-goats-north-cascades/281-99b720fd-3d66-4fe3-9a1d-38df9a80c882
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 04, 2024, 05:13:28 PM
So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?
The vaxx or Hillary?
Post by: Loup Loup on May 04, 2024, 05:54:24 PM
The most telling statement for me was when the tribe bio stated that we’ll see if when there are less recreationalist in the area, due to Grizzly’s in the area, will help the situation. Sounds like the feds aren’t the only ones that want to keep the public (other than tribal members)out of the country.
Post by: Born2late on May 04, 2024, 08:19:22 PM
So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?I talked to a tribel guy that had told me about all the goats dieing and he was pissed that nobody ever would hike in right when they knew they were dead to see why they had died.
No one investigated how they all died?
Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.
The management decisions through this whole thing sucks,
I got one on a trail camera in darrington after they relocated it and it was heading down the mountain and looked really skinny.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 04, 2024, 08:36:16 PM
I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?
Rocky open terrain, not really elevation dependent. You see them in the the Icicle about 600’ above the creek
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 04, 2024, 09:30:03 PM
I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?
Rocky open terrain, not really elevation dependent. You see them in the the Icicle about 600’ above the creek
In Alaska, I've seen them right down at sea level.
Post by: SWHUNTER on May 04, 2024, 10:18:44 PM
So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?I talked to a tribel guy that had told me about all the goats dieing and he was pissed that nobody ever would hike in right when they knew they were dead to see why they had died.
No one investigated how they all died?
Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.
The management decisions through this whole thing sucks,
I got one on a trail camera in darrington after they relocated it and it was heading down the mountain and looked really skinny.
There was one on a trail cam down by Trafton too. Also saw a trail cam pic of one basically on the river bar out the mountain loop.
Post by: Special T on May 05, 2024, 12:46:21 PM
I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?
Olympic is 7980 and a massive amount of them are above 6k ft. Several of which I have summitted. Lots of mountain goat at the bases of said mountains in the 3500 ft range. They really like your. :pee: :pee:
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on May 05, 2024, 02:28:05 PM
There is a herd right outside of lagrande Oregon that can be seen regularly right off of I-84, I’ve looked at topo maps and the ridge they live on tops out at 3700 feet, most of the time I’d say the goats are about 3200. I’ve seen them there in every month of the year, last week they were about 100’ off of the grande ronde at about 2950’I think the highest elevation in the Olympics is about 6000 feet. Don't they prefer to be at much higher elevations?
Rocky open terrain, not really elevation dependent. You see them in the the Icicle about 600’ above the creek
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: zwickeyman on May 06, 2024, 02:26:44 PM
One of the biggest problems right here
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 07, 2024, 08:38:08 AM
What could of been...
They could of aggressively managed the Oly Pen herds, kept them in check and set a strict carry capacity goal.
Deal with problem goats as necessary...
It would of easily added 15-20 goat tags a year to an already dwindling OIL opportunity..
Every time I look out my windows and see the Olympic's front and center I just shake my head at lost opportunities...
Post by: Sundance on May 07, 2024, 09:24:07 AM
If they just left well enough alone..
What could of been...
They could of aggressively managed the Oly Pen herds, kept them in check and set a strict carry capacity goal.
Deal with problem goats as necessary...
It would of easily added 15-20 goat tags a year to an already dwindling OIL opportunity..
Every time I look out my windows and see the Olympic's front and center I just shake my head at lost opportunities...
In 2021 WDFW had the conflict goat resolution hunt category with a total of 25 permits available. The success rate was 33%, so about 8 goats were being harvested. With the population at that time along with the TFR rate, harvesting 8 goats wasn’t even scratching the population. Why they didn’t have 100+ permits is beyond me. Very frustrating.
Post by: birddogdad on May 07, 2024, 10:00:50 AM
Post by: Special T on May 07, 2024, 11:06:53 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on May 07, 2024, 11:56:53 AM
So they were monitoring hundreds of the transplanted goats by GPS tracker, and no one thought to investigate when those GPS Trackers stopped?
No one investigated how they all died?
Sounds like a disfunctional group of monitors.
I believe some of the deaths were investigated, when they were in areas where they could be recovered. However, I believe many might have died during winter months and were not accessable due to weather and terrain until it was too late to understand the cause of death.
Post by: GOcougsHunter on May 07, 2024, 12:41:13 PM
I will be watching the Grizzly bear relocation with popcorn in hand...
Post by: Sundance on May 07, 2024, 01:56:08 PM
My beef was, and still is that I’ve never seen 100% scientific proof that mountain goats weren’t native to the Olympics. I never supported to relocation and culling, this only makes my dissatisfaction with the decision stronger.
That is evidence of absence, and it’s considered a logical no go. Just like me asking you to prove that there isn’t a block of cheese orbiting Jupiter.
Archeological evidence showed no sign, or exceeding murky at best, evidence of hunted goats in pre history. There is a book that I own, that I unfortunately haven’t read yet, that argues that goats in fact did inhabit the Olympics in pre-history.
The author is a Washington native and a full professor of anthropology at University of Missouri-Columbia. So one should believe it is based on sound evidence, though not accepted by the majority of other researchers
https://anthropology.missouri.edu/people/lyman
You’re 100% spot on, the lack of hard evidence to support their existence prior to 1900’s is what the NP’s stood on. I’ve seen goats all over the OP and in really odd places/elevations. The lack of salt and minerals in on the OP has always given me pause, but that alone doesn’t explain why goats couldn’t have existed on that landscape. I watch a friend shoot a Billy off the salt water in AK, so perhaps they would go down to sea level (on the OP) if needed. There were even stories from tribal elders that seemed to support long term goat presence, but stories aren’t the facts needed. Thank you for sharing that book title, I ordered it and look forward to the read.
Post by: argali on May 08, 2024, 08:07:53 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 09, 2024, 12:06:36 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 09, 2024, 05:13:53 AM
Post by: Sundance on May 09, 2024, 07:45:11 AM
Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.
Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.
Post by: 520backyard on May 09, 2024, 03:34:35 PM
So here we are 6 years later and that plan it seems has gone completely to *censored*. Not good for the goats, not good for the state and not good for the hunters of Washington. Olympic NP made out OK though.
And the thing that keeps running through my mind was when they wanted to do this cull plan originally in the 90's and it caused a public uproar and it was cancelled as a result.
And in 2016-17 there was hardly a peep from the public when they brought the plan back, of course this time they were a bit more sneaky about the PR and public comment and meetings relating to this cull. My how times change.
So next it's Grizzlies huh. What could possibly go wrong it's got all the same players.
Post by: Tbar on May 09, 2024, 03:46:28 PM
Was that an option? The park ran the show, did NEPA and made the decisions.Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.
Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.
Post by: 520backyard on May 09, 2024, 04:10:46 PM
Depredation seems a more likely cause than they succumbed to climate change, although a hard winter does tend to cull the population down. Disease perhaps but then again they should have been able to find out if that was the case.
Post by: Remnar on May 09, 2024, 07:03:27 PM
Was that an option? The park ran the show, did NEPA and made the decisions.Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.
Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.
:yeah:
Those goats were going to be dead if they werent relocated . So they gave it a shot and it didnt pan out as hoped. A few added goats to the cascades better than no more goats added ...
Also as far as cost I would rather see $ spent on this than MANY others things it gets spent on . :twocents:
Post by: Tbar on May 09, 2024, 09:09:54 PM
Thanks for the common sense post @Remnar . This was a monumental lift by so many. It's frustrating to see all of the negativity around an attempt to make things better in the world of wildlife. Everyone from volunteer groups to wdfw to many tribes put forth time and resources. Expectations were not of grandeur but of hope. Hope has been dashed but it doesn't not take from the incredible effort and careful planning to have this go off so well, to give some a chance that didn’t exist. To all the armchair biologists and should haves on here I hope at some point you are able to witness the selflessness and work that went into this through being involved if given the opportunity.Was that an option? The park ran the show, did NEPA and made the decisions.Quite obviously there was an issue in the area with some kind of disease or something if non transplanted goat were also dying there. There was people on this forum crying about how the number of goat permits in areas where permits were few in relation to the population. Without or denying the volatility of population to rapidly decrease on any given year.
Funny, they removed goats from the OP to augment populations in the cascades. Now that the cascade populations are circling the toilet, I bet some wished that the OP goats had been left alone.
:yeah:
Those goats were going to be dead if they werent relocated . So they gave it a shot and it didnt pan out as hoped. A few added goats to the cascades better than no more goats added ...
Also as far as cost I would rather see $ spent on this than MANY others things it gets spent on . :twocents:
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 10, 2024, 05:52:45 AM
The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.
In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.
Post by: Tbar on May 10, 2024, 06:43:16 AM
The reality is they could of left the goats alone.NPS was lead on NEPA. Did you comment? Did you attend the meetings and speak up? There was opportunities for all to be involved in the determination of their existence in the park. Many involved did not support eradicating them but really wanted to make the best of the situation.
The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.
In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 10, 2024, 07:12:44 AM
The reality is they could of left the goats alone.NPS was lead on NEPA. Did you comment? Did you attend the meetings and speak up? There was opportunities for all to be involved in the determination of their existence in the park. Many involved did not support eradicating them but really wanted to make the best of the situation.
The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.
In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.
Yes and yes
Unfortunately what's done is done
But I will stand firm that I disagree with the EIS and the associated CBI review that goats allegedly where not native to the area.
And that removal was the only option....
A major factor of the management plan was human interaction. Maybe they should of taken a step in managing humans first....that park is overdue for a reduction in tourism..
I grew up in those mountains and the flood of people the last few years is mind blowing.
And just to be clear even if the relocation was a complete success I would still have the same opinion..those mountains deserve goats....
Post by: Tbar on May 10, 2024, 02:24:04 PM
No disagreement. It is just tough to convey the effort by so many to try to salvage a NPS decision. This was not on the WDFW or tribes.The reality is they could of left the goats alone.NPS was lead on NEPA. Did you comment? Did you attend the meetings and speak up? There was opportunities for all to be involved in the determination of their existence in the park. Many involved did not support eradicating them but really wanted to make the best of the situation.
The justification for attempted relocation didn't merit giving those goats a death sentence in my book.
In a State that's having a difficult time managing any sort of wildlife you'd hope science and common sense says leave a thriving resource alone and add some protocols to manage it better. Instead of take a chance and hope they survive a mass relocation.
Yes and yes
Unfortunately what's done is done
But I will stand firm that I disagree with the EIS and the associated CBI review that goats allegedly where not native to the area.
And that removal was the only option....
A major factor of the management plan was human interaction. Maybe they should of taken a step in managing humans first....that park is overdue for a reduction in tourism..
I grew up in those mountains and the flood of people the last few years is mind blowing.
And just to be clear even if the relocation was a complete success I would still have the same opinion..those mountains deserve goats....