Post by: drakeallterrain on September 26, 2024, 01:36:34 PM
First time posting. I have scoured many forums about this, and there does not appear to be a reasonable solution for non-toxic ammo in 20ga that would work to defend against bears in this scenario “legally”. There are very niche manufacturers of “tin” rifled slugs, but they don’t come in 20ga. Steel 20ga (petal?) rounds must not be shot in choked barrels. Can’t legally hunt migratory birds/upland while in possession of lead ammo.
What I did was order 5x custom TSS rounds 20ga #BB 1-5/8 payload. I expect to never use them, but in addition to sometimes bear spray carried I wanted another option.Their cost shipped is $70/5 rnds, which is fine. In a 7lb. O/U I expect these rounds to take a chunk out of my shoulder.
At defensive range and within reason, what could I expect from this while choked at Improved Cylinder to Modified vs. bear face? I expect it to work for any other predator, but bear is the primary concern. I know its no slug but I imagine I can’t ask bears to be patient while I swap chokes.
Post by: CP on September 26, 2024, 02:16:36 PM
At defensive range and within reason, what could I expect from this while choked at Improved Cylinder to Modified vs. bear face?
You should expect to die a horrible and painful death via a pissed off bear.
Maybe just bring some bear spray.
Post by: Bob33 on September 26, 2024, 02:25:30 PM
Post by: Feathernfurr on September 26, 2024, 02:38:55 PM
Post by: freshgrease on September 26, 2024, 02:42:06 PM
Just buy a pistol if you are truly afraid of bears.
Post by: MADMAX on September 26, 2024, 03:38:37 PM
As others have said
Pistol or bear spray
Post by: drakeallterrain on September 26, 2024, 03:42:52 PM
Tungsten #BB shot while technically “bird-sized shot” is marketed and used to shoot bucks and hogs with penetration tests passing clean through 2x shoulder bones @40 yds. Expecting a usage within 8-15 yds would create a fairly narrow shot column with a small reduction in velocity ~1200fps. The difference between 2oz/rnd carried for the season vs a sidearm carried is significant enough to entertain this.
People been telling me “yer gonna die” for decades, still here but enjoy the discourse.
Post by: wadu1 on September 26, 2024, 04:20:55 PM
Post by: tgomez on September 26, 2024, 04:55:37 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on September 27, 2024, 05:37:54 AM
If you were to get into reloading, there are options. There are pressure tested bear defense loads for 12 gauge with TSS that guys use in Alaska, and the dealer I buy from provides recipes. I'm sure he has tested 20 gauge load data as well. The bear defense recipe that I load for 12 gauge is twenty 30cal TSS balls per shot (you can get up to .36 cal as well, fewer per shell of course). Remembering TSS is harder than steel and 60% denser than lead, so flies farther and penetrates deeper.
Post by: wadu1 on September 27, 2024, 07:05:56 AM
Post by: Lalo on September 27, 2024, 01:23:51 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on September 27, 2024, 01:56:50 PM
Post by: ducks4days on September 27, 2024, 02:11:09 PM
IDK if you have ever used a hammer to dig a hole, it can be done but its a lot easier to use a shovel. Or a tractor if you have access to one. If you need to defend yourself, you should not try to get one tool to do two jobs because it will do each poorly. You should not try to rely on cycling out your active shell and loading a specific shell from your pocket if you need to do it quickly. Youll just die.
Use some common sense and get purpose dedicated tools for whatever it is you are trying to do. If youre in grizz areas just buy a G20 in 10mm, load it with hard cast bullets and practice a couple times a year drawing and firing from standing and from your back on the ground. Youll probably never need to use it or the training but its the right tool for the job. If youre not in grizz areas,
Post by: Feathernfurr on September 27, 2024, 02:15:29 PM
Post by: Threewolves on September 27, 2024, 02:23:17 PM
JBLM (new) regulation 215- 1, now says you can have an open carry side arm for self defense, not for hunting. Except TA2 and main post. BUT, must be registered with JBLM. Yep with federal government.
Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk
Post by: dilleytech on September 30, 2024, 09:05:22 AM
Post by: dilleytech on September 30, 2024, 09:07:26 AM
Not sure why everyone is so negative. At 10 feet, a shotgun load of tss or bismuth would not open up at all and would basically be like a slug, and I would prefer it over, say, 10mm any day. (Then again, your bird shot would also be similar to a slug at 10 feet). I have actually considered a similar problem, though I have more options, because I carry a 12 gauge. Hevi-shot Dead Coyote, for example. However, if the bear is close, who wants to be fumbling with taking bird shot out of your gun and putting a heavier round in? In that sense, the naysayers are probably right that if you are quick and accurate with a handgun, and if it is legal, probably better to hit the bear with bird shot, and then draw the pistol.
It would not work like a slug at all. The pellets don’t have the weight to carry themselves like a slug.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 30, 2024, 10:13:45 AM
Hello,
First time posting. I have scoured many forums about this, and there does not appear to be a reasonable solution for non-toxic ammo in 20ga that would work to defend against bears in this scenario “legally”. There are very niche manufacturers of “tin” rifled slugs, but they don’t come in 20ga. Steel 20ga (petal?) rounds must not be shot in choked barrels. Can’t legally hunt migratory birds/upland while in possession of lead ammo.
What I did was order 5x custom TSS rounds 20ga #BB 1-5/8 payload. I expect to never use them, but in addition to sometimes bear spray carried I wanted another option.Their cost shipped is $70/5 rnds, which is fine. In a 7lb. O/U I expect these rounds to take a chunk out of my shoulder.
At defensive range and within reason, what could I expect from this while choked at Improved Cylinder to Modified vs. bear face? I expect it to work for any other predator, but bear is the primary concern. I know its no slug but I imagine I can’t ask bears to be patient while I swap chokes.
Maybe I'm missing something but I'm confused. While bird hunting, while you're being charged by a bear, you will be changing ammo in the shotgun to defend yourself? Nope. You're not going to have time to change shells in time for a charge. Please leave me that nice shotgun in your will. I'm a nice guy. :tup:
If you're in black bear territory and you're larger than a child, you shouldn't worry about a black bear attack. But if you still are, carry a handgun or bear spray in a holster for quick access. You don't need a CCW permit during or to and from outdoor sporting activities. If you're in grizzly country carry both and make it as large a caliber as you can shoot accurately under stress.
Post by: Skillet on September 30, 2024, 10:42:22 AM
At 10 feet, an 1-1/8 oz load going 1300 fps delivers an 1800+ lb/ft blow. Even with "poor" penetration, that's a DRT bear.
:twocents:
Post by: big wood on October 19, 2024, 11:36:44 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2024, 06:38:41 AM
Post by: 300rum on October 20, 2024, 06:45:57 AM
Anyway, I wouldn't feel under gunned at all. I suppose no one ever had a coyote sneak up on your dekes?
I had to take out a pit bull with a 3" Magnum BB and I will tell you, there wasn't a better load available to do that job.
Apparently you city kids haven't shot any fence posts, trees or whatever at close range with a 20 gauge. Hell I'd even take a .410 over a fir limb if I was about to go toe to toe with Yogi. Self defense on a bear shouldnt be 30 yards out. I'm not afraid of my own shadow though :rolleyes:
Post by: Bob33 on October 20, 2024, 07:33:37 AM
Post by: Loup Loup on October 20, 2024, 09:10:29 AM
Post by: jdb on October 20, 2024, 01:50:33 PM
Apparently you city kids haven't shot any fence posts, trees or whatever at close range with a 20 gauge. Hell I'd even take a .410 over a fir limb if I was about to go toe to toe with Yogi. Self defense on a bear shouldnt be 30 yards out. I'm not afraid of my own shadow though :rolleyes:man I wish we had the option to “like” a post, so I’ll just say “what he said”
Post by: hunter399 on October 20, 2024, 02:03:20 PM
Most dedicated bird guns usually some kind of chokes in them.
Depends on the choke ,you most likely will not be able to shoot buckshot or slugs.
Shot placement....
If it was me ,right in the throat or neck. Your looking for vitals that the birdshot got can get to. That is about your only chance is in the throat.
Cut shells
Ever hear of a cut shell ,I'll see if I can find the video for ya.
Don't try this at home.
Post by: Loup Loup on October 20, 2024, 03:22:28 PM
My Grandson was filming the second encounter. When we were done he said “ I videoed that whole deal, except when that bear charged you” I asked why didn’t you video that? He replied “cause I was bookin it!!” Ha ha, pretty funny to see the camera blurr as it bunces through the alders!
Black bears are of no concern, other than they will go out of their way to wreck your stuff and eat your food if given a chance.
Post by: metlhead on October 22, 2024, 07:38:42 AM
Post by: buglebuster on October 22, 2024, 08:36:25 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on October 22, 2024, 09:09:05 AM
If you're that concerned, carry a handgun. But to be honest... At point blank with modern loads I have a hard time believing 2 shot won't penetrate a black bear skull.
Post by: asmith on October 22, 2024, 09:40:56 AM
There is few concerns....
Most dedicated bird guns usually some kind of chokes in them.
Depends on the choke ,you most likely will not be able to shoot buckshot or slugs.
Shot placement....
If it was me ,right in the throat or neck. Your looking for vitals that the birdshot got can get to. That is about your only chance is in the throat.
Cut shells
Ever hear of a cut shell ,I'll see if I can find the video for ya.
Don't try this at home.
I used to do this while chukar hunting in California, in case I ran across a deer during season. Never got to fire one at a deer, but I did fire a couple at a boulder to test it out. Man is it LOUD when it hits.
Post by: Goshawk on October 22, 2024, 10:18:57 AM
Hello,
First time posting. I have scoured many forums about this, and there does not appear to be a reasonable solution for non-toxic ammo in 20ga that would work to defend against bears in this scenario “legally”. There are very niche manufacturers of “tin” rifled slugs, but they don’t come in 20ga. Steel 20ga (petal?) rounds must not be shot in choked barrels. Can’t legally hunt migratory birds/upland while in possession of lead ammo.
What I did was order 5x custom TSS rounds 20ga #BB 1-5/8 payload. I expect to never use them, but in addition to sometimes bear spray carried I wanted another option.Their cost shipped is $70/5 rnds, which is fine. In a 7lb. O/U I expect these rounds to take a chunk out of my shoulder.
At defensive range and within reason, what could I expect from this while choked at Improved Cylinder to Modified vs. bear face? I expect it to work for any other predator, but bear is the primary concern. I know its no slug but I imagine I can’t ask bears to be patient while I swap chokes.
Bear Spray.
Post by: Kola16 on October 22, 2024, 11:11:39 AM
There was a grizzly bear attack while duck hunting in Alaska. It is the only bear attack I can find while duck hunting. So the odds are what, 1 in a trillion of getting attacked by a bear while duck hunting? In the Alaska case, the duck hunters shot the griz with 12 gauge 3" #4 steel shot. It was slowed by the 2nd shot and severely slowed by the 3rd shot. The friend then fired 3 more shots of 12 gauge 3.5" #4 steel and the bear went into a death roll on the ground. They then reloaded and fired many more shots...
The hunters say they carried slugs in case they encountered a rogue grizzly, but there was no time to grab them.
So in a self defense situation, any duck loads in the gun would work at close range.
If the OP is indeed wanting to shoot a bear while duck hunting given a chance, you have options, but using #BB TSS would be illegal since you need #1 buckshot or larger by law.