Post by: jstone on March 07, 2025, 08:48:18 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 07, 2025, 09:25:00 AM
This pic is standing in my garage a few days ago
Post by: boneaddict on March 07, 2025, 09:28:00 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on March 07, 2025, 10:13:28 AM
Post by: crabcreekhunter on March 07, 2025, 11:06:49 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 07, 2025, 11:32:49 AM
Fitkins deer count up in the Methow was absolutely pitiful.
Do they publish these anywhere?
Post by: boneaddict on March 07, 2025, 01:13:51 PM
I have an inside source that comes up with it so I dont have the answer to that. I'm sure it is, I just don't know where.Fitkins deer count up in the Methow was absolutely pitiful.
Do they publish these anywhere?
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 07, 2025, 03:28:14 PM
Fawn numbers were looking great but neighborhood dogs are wreaking havoc around my place. One of the neighbors has put orange vests on their German sheppards so you don’t confuse them with coyotes.
Doesn't that make them easier targets? I told our neighbor if his dogs were chasing deer on our place they wouldn't be leaving... He got collars and fixed the problem... They still get into everyone else's trash but they haven't been chasing deer.
To answer the original question the deer around our place are healthy and stable but the numbers decline every year...
Post by: baldopepper on March 07, 2025, 05:03:26 PM
Had the same problem with dogs around my.place, so called wdfw. Got a call back.from a very polite officer who, quite frustrated himself, told me there wasn't much he could about itFawn numbers were looking great but neighborhood dogs are wreaking havoc around my place. One of the neighbors has put orange vests on their German sheppards so you don’t confuse them with coyotes.
Doesn't that make them easier targets? I told our neighbor if his dogs were chasing deer on our place they wouldn't be leaving... He got collars and fixed the problem... They still get into everyone else's trash but they haven't been chasing deer.
To answer the original question the deer around our place are healthy and stable but the numbers decline every year...
Said if we got them chasing deer on a camera they could go talk to the owner but had no authority to do much else. Local lack of leash laws allow people to allow their dogs to run free but if they come on your property you can call local leos. He did warn that if you take matters into your own hands ( shooting them)you would be open to a law suit from the owners. Different matter if they sttack your livestock or people, but still a local Leo matter. Nice guy and said unfortunately a fairly common problem they can't do much about.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 08, 2025, 06:19:35 AM
Fawn numbers were looking great but neighborhood dogs are wreaking havoc around my place. One of the neighbors has put orange vests on their German sheppards so you don’t confuse them with coyotes.
If an orange vest is the only thing distinguishing a dog from a coyote, the owner is assuming some things.
Post by: C-Money on March 08, 2025, 07:01:43 AM
Post by: HillHound on March 08, 2025, 07:45:30 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 08, 2025, 09:41:51 AM
Fawn numbers were looking great but neighborhood dogs are wreaking havoc around my place. One of the neighbors has put orange vests on their German sheppards so you don’t confuse them with coyotes.
I used to shed hunt that corridor. It would be nothing to scoop 50 in a season there and see 300 to 500 deer in that basin this time of year.
Post by: ghosthunter on March 08, 2025, 12:15:23 PM
Fitkins deer count up in the Methow was absolutely pitiful.
Fitkins, that guy needs to retire. His numbers are from fantasy land.
The only thing right I ever heard him do ,was shut down Wildlife areas thru the winter months. And he should have done that years ago.
Post by: String Bender on March 08, 2025, 12:33:24 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on March 08, 2025, 02:02:47 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 08, 2025, 11:30:31 PM
Post by: actionshooter on March 08, 2025, 11:34:49 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 09, 2025, 07:45:41 AM
Post by: Cougeyes on March 10, 2025, 06:44:30 AM
I have an inside source that comes up with it so I dont have the answer to that. I'm sure it is, I just don't know where.Fitkins deer count up in the Methow was absolutely pitiful.
Do they publish these anywhere?
Its usually published in the annual Game Status and Trend Reports and occassionally in their bi-weekly wildlife activity reports.
Post by: MeepDog on March 10, 2025, 07:54:52 AM
Post by: FWilliams on March 10, 2025, 08:17:10 AM
Post by: OutHouse on March 12, 2025, 12:51:33 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 12, 2025, 04:02:26 PM
Had the same problem with dogs around my.place, so called wdfw. Got a call back.from a very polite officer who, quite frustrated himself, told me there wasn't much he could about itFawn numbers were looking great but neighborhood dogs are wreaking havoc around my place. One of the neighbors has put orange vests on their German sheppards so you don’t confuse them with coyotes.
Doesn't that make them easier targets? I told our neighbor if his dogs were chasing deer on our place they wouldn't be leaving... He got collars and fixed the problem... They still get into everyone else's trash but they haven't been chasing deer.
To answer the original question the deer around our place are healthy and stable but the numbers decline every year...
Said if we got them chasing deer on a camera they could go talk to the owner but had no authority to do much else. Local lack of leash laws allow people to allow their dogs to run free but if they come on your property you can call local leos. He did warn that if you take matters into your own hands ( shooting them)you would be open to a law suit from the owners. Different matter if they sttack your livestock or people, but still a local Leo matter. Nice guy and said unfortunately a fairly common problem they can't do much about.
https://www.carolinasportsman.com/field-reports/hunting-reports/deer/sumter-sc-man-loses-132000-judgement-for-killing-hunting-dog/
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 12, 2025, 04:16:42 PM
,I have an inside source that comes up with it so I dont have the answer to that. I'm sure it is, I just don't know where.Fitkins deer count up in the Methow was absolutely pitiful.
Do they publish these anywhere?
Its usually published in the annual Game Status and Trend Reports and occassionally in their bi-weekly wildlife activity reports.
This info is not published there it takes a public records request to get the helicopter survey info.
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 13, 2025, 01:25:33 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 13, 2025, 01:55:25 AM
Post by: mountainman on March 13, 2025, 09:27:39 AM
It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!
Post by: OutHouse on March 13, 2025, 10:33:39 AM
It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!
Please do! I have seen a picture of a herd of mule deer in mazama that was from the late 1970s I think.
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 13, 2025, 11:13:27 PM
How about $300?I guess I was happy to send them $321 for a sheep tag.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 14, 2025, 07:49:36 AM
It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I grew up running feral up Chinook pass. The amount of deer prior to the winter of 1996 was impressive. I can vividly remember hiking with my grandpa in the spring and the volume of winter kill was absolutely staggering. They have just never rebounded after that. Pretty sad.
Post by: boneaddict on March 14, 2025, 08:55:06 AM
Post by: OutHouse on March 14, 2025, 01:00:08 PM
It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I grew up running feral up Chinook pass. The amount of deer prior to the winter of 1996 was impressive. I can vividly remember hiking with my grandpa in the spring and the volume of winter kill was absolutely staggering. They have just never rebounded after that. Pretty sad.
96 was a heck of winter, eh? I was about 10 and remember missing school for two weeks around here. Another guy I knew who has since passed told me that mule deer hunting was great up Hwy 12 up to White Pass, 410 as well obviously. I think he was referencing before the 1990s.
The guy who taught me how/where to find morels said they would scope out bucks west of Tieton in the early season and "pick" the buck they wanted to get in the fall and usually they would get them. Crazy how much it has changed.
Post by: Stein on March 14, 2025, 04:42:16 PM
Post by: Wingin it on March 14, 2025, 06:09:26 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 14, 2025, 08:09:13 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 14, 2025, 09:11:06 PM
96 changed the way we hunted because I believe that was the start of 3 point or better if I remember right but the main issue was the lice that followed that never allowed the deer herds to recover. We still killed deer after 96 for about a decade before it turned into the disaster we all live today.yep you're remembering correctly
Post by: teal101 on March 18, 2025, 02:02:18 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 18, 2025, 03:44:57 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 19, 2025, 03:58:28 PM
Oh ya they will. :yeah:It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!
Post by: bigmacc on March 19, 2025, 04:02:39 PM
Eastman and his family had some great footage of some monsters up by the observatory years ago. There were some real whoppers back then. Manastash ridge, Chinook, all amazing bucks.I had a customer that hunted that area for decades, he and his family, oh my the pictures he showed me. I went on a horseback fishing trip with he and his uncle one year, 80 or 81, man the bucks we seen were beautiful and a lot of them.
Post by: OutHouse on March 20, 2025, 04:39:01 PM
Oh ya they will. :yeah:It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!
A guy who has since passed but whose mother owned a substantial fraction of Mazama at one point showed me at least a 25 inch wide mule deer rack he had and he told me he could get one of those every year if he just "tried hard". And he said he was not that great of a hunter. :yike:
Post by: bigmacc on March 22, 2025, 04:29:39 PM
I and others believe that for sure. Remember the story I told on here years ago about the motor homes parked in a big circle in one of the big migrations corridors in the Methow back in the early 70’s, they had a pole full of bucks that were unbelievable, the weather hit up high and they killed them all sitting around their fire sipping whiskey! It was shortly after that my dad started advocating for some of the roads to be gated. Many conversations and rides with Game guys and bios. My dad said the herd would eventually be slaughtered if some of those roads were left open with the amount of new hunters after the North cascades highway was open. After what’s happened to that valley since it did open, I must admit he was right. Not even mentioning the predator issues.Oh ya they will. :yeah:It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!
A guy who has since passed but whose mother owned a substantial fraction of Mazama at one point showed me at least a 25 inch wide mule deer rack he had and he told me he could get one of those every year if he just "tried hard". And he said he was not that great of a hunter. :yike:
That was back in the day when we had a “Game department”, that herd was at the top of the totem pole back then, job 1.
Some probably remember those days, folks would return home and say “there’s deer every where over there”. IMHO that pass was the valleys demise as far as hunting goes and for the plain ole sleepy feeling you got when you were there. Relaxing, cattle, logging, orchards, etc. It was one of those “best kept secrets”. No more.
Post by: boneaddict on March 23, 2025, 08:17:04 AM
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 23, 2025, 09:02:41 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 23, 2025, 09:21:50 AM
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 23, 2025, 09:27:43 AM
Same goes for birds and other critters out there. Way less today and it’s not just game species that are affected.
Post by: bigmacc on March 23, 2025, 10:32:21 AM
Whats sad is now if people see a herd of 20 deer in a field they run to Huntwa and report all is well, glory days are back. What they are clueless about is that field used to have 350 in it, and the field next to it, and the field next to that one. No exaggeration, I'd go shed hunting and count literally a thousand deer in a basin. Now there might be 5. I'm not even that frickin' old. I used to go hunt before I had to ride my bike into work. I'd look over more than 250deer in a morning on the ridge outside of town on public land during hunting season. I would count more deer in less than an hour than Fitkin counted this year in three days on prime winter range. Just looking at trails and tracks. Its crazy how a snow covered ridge used to be crisscrossed with game trails, now just snowSpot on bone. And your exactly right, you are not exaggerating.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 23, 2025, 11:20:25 AM
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 23, 2025, 12:49:12 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 23, 2025, 04:55:49 PM
I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.
Post by: timberfaller on March 23, 2025, 05:01:57 PM
I've said my peace numerous times in the past here on HW, and as a logger and rancher, I've seen the decline. Mis-management is the biggest problem facing wildlife in this state, allowing wolves to be re-introduced, NOT protecting winter range habitat in land purchases(Big Valley Ranch), allowing "lazy"(walk off ten feet for a road) people to feed deer in the winter. Thinking alfalfa is what deer need to feed on(require woody fiber in diet)to be healthy. Don't get me started on the "3 point or better" fiasco", even the "game warden's" I worked around and with, were against it. Another animal husbandry issue.
FYI, the fields in front of our ranch house would have up to 80-100 head of deer in them, both muley's and whitetail, 1982. When I left, those field were lucky to have 20,1996. You could travel the whole length of the ranch and count many more. I won't tell you how many moose and elk were there!! Of course this is before the WDFW took over. I and my friends and family members always got a laugh when we'd see or talk to out of the area "hunters" who would make comments about "well the reports by WDFW in our newspapers and radio shows, said the valley is the state's best area to hunt, lots of critters" Living in East Wenatchee now, I still hear the same story's. :chuckle:
Do I have all the answers NO, but I do know where and who are the "problems". I read the MVN every week, and just shake my head as to where the valley has GONE. I don't think it will ever be back, especially with who in charge in Olympia. Just research "jingles" problems with a couple of local women and his trap lines!!! Should have been jail time for what they did, but WDFW just slapped their hands. The department hasn't learned anything, even from the days of hound hunting getting banned "we are going to become pro-active instead of re-active" doesn't look like it to me!! :hello:
Post by: OutHouse on March 24, 2025, 02:57:38 PM
I and others believe that for sure. Remember the story I told on here years ago about the motor homes parked in a big circle in one of the big migrations corridors in the Methow back in the early 70’s, they had a pole full of bucks that were unbelievable, the weather hit up high and they killed them all sitting around their fire sipping whiskey! It was shortly after that my dad started advocating for some of the roads to be gated. Many conversations and rides with Game guys and bios. My dad said the herd would eventually be slaughtered if some of those roads were left open with the amount of new hunters after the North cascades highway was open. After what’s happened to that valley since it did open, I must admit he was right. Not even mentioning the predator issues.Oh ya they will. :yeah:It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton. :(I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!
A guy who has since passed but whose mother owned a substantial fraction of Mazama at one point showed me at least a 25 inch wide mule deer rack he had and he told me he could get one of those every year if he just "tried hard". And he said he was not that great of a hunter. :yike:
That was back in the day when we had a “Game department”, that herd was at the top of the totem pole back then, job 1.
Some probably remember those days, folks would return home and say “there’s deer every where over there”. IMHO that pass was the valleys demise as far as hunting goes and for the plain ole sleepy feeling you got when you were there. Relaxing, cattle, logging, orchards, etc. It was one of those “best kept secrets”. No more.
I think I do remember that Bigmacc! That same fellow I was referencing said the same thing--the pass opened up and it has never been the same since. Kind of off topic but that same fellow told be that Ted Bundy drove the governor or some big wig over the pass right after it opened!
Post by: OutHouse on March 24, 2025, 02:59:31 PM
I think a lot of people underestimate the damage to herds caused by road kill. Once these highways and passes got cut through the land and everyone started driving 70mph the shear number of kills was exponential. Then add in hunting, poaching, habitat loss and predators. Hard to say if we’ll ever see herds like we used to.
True. I was up there for Christmas and one jumped the guard rail and I hit her as soon as she hit the highway. I could do nothing about it and felt really bad. I talked to a guy who went and kept the meat. I was in my mom's car.
Post by: bigmacc on March 24, 2025, 04:33:58 PM
Having lived in the Valley for approx. 35 years, the demise of the "herds" started long before Fitkin was around. The big herds I remember started to decline the year the "Game" dept. decided "Doe's" needed removed so to get "their" perceived notion of the perfect buck to doe ratio. Oh and it was only going to take 3 years and they would "stop" the doe killings. NOW if you know anything about "animal husbandry" Killing off the number that they did(just in those 3 years), removed a lot of "lead does". They are the ones who knew where the winter ranges were. Beginning in the mid 80's and into the 90's a lot of winter ranges HAD NO deer so up. Hummmm wonder why?? As a faller, I could tell you all kinds of interesting wildlife story's, but now is not the time.I 100 percent agree with you about the doe tags, never should have happened and shouldn’t happen today in that valley, whether it be seniors or youth. Let them shoot any buck but lay off the does.
I've said my peace numerous times in the past here on HW, and as a logger and rancher, I've seen the decline. Mis-management is the biggest problem facing wildlife in this state, allowing wolves to be re-introduced, NOT protecting winter range habitat in land purchases(Big Valley Ranch), allowing "lazy"(walk off ten feet for a road) people to feed deer in the winter. Thinking alfalfa is what deer need to feed on(require woody fiber in diet)to be healthy. Don't get me started on the "3 point or better" fiasco", even the "game warden's" I worked around and with, were against it. Another animal husbandry issue.
FYI, the fields in front of our ranch house would have up to 80-100 head of deer in them, both muley's and whitetail, 1982. When I left, those field were lucky to have 20,1996. You could travel the whole length of the ranch and count many more. I won't tell you how many moose and elk were there!! Of course this is before the WDFW took over. I and my friends and family members always got a laugh when we'd see or talk to out of the area "hunters" who would make comments about "well the reports by WDFW in our newspapers and radio shows, said the valley is the state's best area to hunt, lots of critters" Living in East Wenatchee now, I still hear the same story's. :chuckle:
Do I have all the answers NO, but I do know where and who are the "problems". I read the MVN every week, and just shake my head as to where the valley has GONE. I don't think it will ever be back, especially with who in charge in Olympia. Just research "jingles" problems with a couple of local women and his trap lines!!! Should have been jail time for what they did, but WDFW just slapped their hands. The department hasn't learned anything, even from the days of hound hunting getting banned "we are going to become pro-active instead of re-active" doesn't look like it to me!! :hello:
I will defend a few of the old “game Department” folks from back in the day, most of them were not on board with the “doe shoots” either, I remember my cousin who was a big wig with Idaho F and G back in the day that sometimes after “killer” winters” some doe thinning may need to happen, especially if the feed and browse took a beating. I remember he said it helped out the herd in general for a couple years to cut back on starvation. This WDFW just keeps issuing doe tags.
I’m sure it’s all about the money at this point cause it sure as heck isn’t about rebuilding that herd, they’ve shown that by all the song and dance concerning predators including the wolf fiasco, not to mention bogus herd counts.
Post by: ghosthunter on March 24, 2025, 09:06:44 PM
Having lived in the Valley for approx. 35 years, the demise of the "herds" started long before Fitkin was around. The big herds I remember started to decline the year the "Game" dept. decided "Doe's" needed removed so to get "their" perceived notion of the perfect buck to doe ratio. Oh and it was only going to take 3 years and they would "stop" the doe killings. NOW if you know anything about "animal husbandry" Killing off the number that they did(just in those 3 years), removed a lot of "lead does". They are the ones who knew where the winter ranges were. Beginning in the mid 80's and into the 90's a lot of winter ranges HAD NO deer so up. Hummmm wonder why?? As a faller, I could tell you all kinds of interesting wildlife story's, but now is not the time.I 100 percent agree with you about the doe tags, never should have happened and shouldn’t happen today in that valley, whether it be seniors or youth. Let them shoot any buck but lay off the does.
I've said my peace numerous times in the past here on HW, and as a logger and rancher, I've seen the decline. Mis-management is the biggest problem facing wildlife in this state, allowing wolves to be re-introduced, NOT protecting winter range habitat in land purchases(Big Valley Ranch), allowing "lazy"(walk off ten feet for a road) people to feed deer in the winter. Thinking alfalfa is what deer need to feed on(require woody fiber in diet)to be healthy. Don't get me started on the "3 point or better" fiasco", even the "game warden's" I worked around and with, were against it. Another animal husbandry issue.
FYI, the fields in front of our ranch house would have up to 80-100 head of deer in them, both muley's and whitetail, 1982. When I left, those field were lucky to have 20,1996. You could travel the whole length of the ranch and count many more. I won't tell you how many moose and elk were there!! Of course this is before the WDFW took over. I and my friends and family members always got a laugh when we'd see or talk to out of the area "hunters" who would make comments about "well the reports by WDFW in our newspapers and radio shows, said the valley is the state's best area to hunt, lots of critters" Living in East Wenatchee now, I still hear the same story's. :chuckle:
Do I have all the answers NO, but I do know where and who are the "problems". I read the MVN every week, and just shake my head as to where the valley has GONE. I don't think it will ever be back, especially with who in charge in Olympia. Just research "jingles" problems with a couple of local women and his trap lines!!! Should have been jail time for what they did, but WDFW just slapped their hands. The department hasn't learned anything, even from the days of hound hunting getting banned "we are going to become pro-active instead of re-active" doesn't look like it to me!! :hello:
I will defend a few of the old “game Department” folks from back in the day, most of them were not on board with the “doe shoots” either, I remember my cousin who was a big wig with Idaho F and G back in the day that sometimes after “killer” winters” some doe thinning may need to happen, especially if the feed and browse took a beating. I remember he said it helped out the herd in general for a couple years to cut back on starvation. This WDFW just keeps issuing doe tags.
I’m sure it’s all about the money at this point cause it sure as heck isn’t about rebuilding that herd, they’ve shown that by all the song and dance concerning predators including the wolf fiasco, not to mention bogus herd counts.
For seniors in Twisp area last year instead of doe they gave any buck. Didn’t do any good never saw a buck. Over 65 special draw.
Post by: timberfaller on March 25, 2025, 08:53:44 AM
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 25, 2025, 09:21:37 AM
I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.
Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.
There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 25, 2025, 09:53:47 AM
I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.
Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.
There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.
Habitat encroachment, roads everywhere, uncrossable manmade barriers, rural development and recreational pressure all work in favor of predators and put the ungulates at a disadvantage. The anti-hunting argument of "leave them alone and they'll naturally self-regulate over time" doesn't hold water, as the modern landscape isn't natural. One could argue since humans have affected their habitat so greatly it is now our duty to manage predators.
Post by: bigmacc on March 26, 2025, 07:00:25 PM
I do overwhelmingly agree that predators need to be hunted along with upping quotas and extending seasons on predators along with a “hound hunting window”, even if the hound hunting is a draw hunt, like they do with the quality deer tags. I also agree that the libs within the WDFW and in our state govt will “never understand that”.I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.
Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.
There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.
Post by: bigmacc on March 26, 2025, 07:07:34 PM
Good points. Although some of the areas where homes have been built, tracts of property etc have also become sanctuaries so to speak for deer to escape predators. It’s why some say they see more deer in yards, around town and on private property than they do in the hills over there. As said, good points.I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.
Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.
There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.
Habitat encroachment, roads everywhere, uncrossable manmade barriers, rural development and recreational pressure all work in favor of predators and put the ungulates at a disadvantage. The anti-hunting argument of "leave them alone and they'll naturally self-regulate over time" doesn't hold water, as the modern landscape isn't natural. One could argue since humans have affected their habitat so greatly it is now our duty to manage predators.
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 26, 2025, 10:53:35 PM
Whats sad is now if people see a herd of 20 deer in a field they run to Huntwa and report all is well, glory days are back. What they are clueless about is that field used to have 350 in it, and the field next to it, and the field next to that one. No exaggeration, I'd go shed hunting and count literally a thousand deer in a basin. Now there might be 5. I'm not even that frickin' old. I used to go hunt before I had to ride my bike into work. I'd look over more than 250deer in a morning on the ridge outside of town on public land during hunting season. I would count more deer in less than an hour than Fitkin counted this year in three days on prime winter range. Just looking at trails and tracks. Its crazy how a snow covered ridge used to be crisscrossed with game trails, now just snowI had 25 deer for the first time ever winter on our place and know the glory days are gone. There used to be hundreds of deer across the road from Wells Dam that are gone. Above the tunnel before Chelan in the orchard there were hundreds that are gone. Pateros to Brewster they are gone and the Methow Valley I was young but saw them in the 70s and 80s in the orchards which are gone. Lower and upper Hooker I don’t even know if you can even get there anymore but i bet they are gone. Why is this the first time ever this many came here? Wolves and cougars moved them down here where they were safe until the deer wanted to play on Highway 97A
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 27, 2025, 06:13:38 AM
Post by: teal101 on March 27, 2025, 12:32:07 PM
I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.
Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.
There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.
Habitat encroachment, roads everywhere, uncrossable manmade barriers, rural development and recreational pressure all work in favor of predators and put the ungulates at a disadvantage. The anti-hunting argument of "leave them alone and they'll naturally self-regulate over time" doesn't hold water, as the modern landscape isn't natural. One could argue since humans have affected their habitat so greatly it is now our duty to manage predators.
Bingo. One of the biggest issues facing mule deer management today is human encroachment on critical winter range. The more homes that pop up and the more yards that are developed, the less habitat there is. There is no going back to the way things were before humans so we have to manage as such.
Post by: teal101 on March 27, 2025, 12:32:44 PM
There was a study of collared deer in the Methow valley showing a majority of those deer had moved to the orchards around Chelan. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out predators forced them out.That would be an interesting study to read, have a link?
Post by: Twispriver on March 27, 2025, 02:29:47 PM
Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 27, 2025, 02:39:07 PM
I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.
Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 27, 2025, 04:19:12 PM
I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.
Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.
Part of the reason why they don’t leave private winter range is that there is no longer greener pastures up the hill on forest service land like there used to be.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 27, 2025, 05:21:40 PM
I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.
Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.
This is where I struggle. I get ya on the fire suppression, but at the same time they are letting fires burn up a ton of country. MD are surely adapt at avoiding some fires, but when they get big (fires) it's gotta be hard to outrun a blaze. Think Pioneer, Duncan, Wolverine, Tyee, Cougar, Thirtymile, Carlton, Okanogan, black canyon, retreat, Tripod, domke, etc etc............ We have burned up alot of deer, and at the same time habitat...,..which allows for more harvest due to visibility.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 27, 2025, 06:19:06 PM
All those mega fires are due to humans mismanaging our forests for the last 100 years. Mother natures design wasn't meant to have that kind of fuel load on the landscape. Instead of stuff burning every now and then and improving habitat, we put out every spark for decades then when it does go up it's scorched earth and can't support anything.I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.
Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.
This is where I struggle. I get ya on the fire suppression, but at the same time they are letting fires burn up a ton of country. MD are surely adapt at avoiding some fires, but when they get big (fires) it's gotta be hard to outrun a blaze. Think Pioneer, Duncan, Wolverine, Tyee, Cougar, Thirtymile, Carlton, Okanogan, black canyon, retreat, Tripod, domke, etc etc............ We have burned up alot of deer, and at the same time habitat...,..which allows for more harvest due to visibility.
Post by: sooperfly on March 27, 2025, 08:24:09 PM
I have a large number cams out in the Methow, from the border down to the mouth. All but a few are cell cams. I've only had them out since the 2014 fire. The last two years they've captured drastically more deer than in previous years. Lots and lots of bucks, some pretty nice ones by my standards. My lower elevation cams have way higher deer counts than my upper elevation ones. Lately, our property on the valley floor has the most deer year-round on it than I can remember, pre or post fire. Quite a few of both muley and whitetail.
I spend a lot of time in the Lake-Chelan Sawtooth and Pasayten and a lot of trips I don't see a dang deer. I wish I had more data as our family has been in the valley since the late 1800's. Dang '48 flood took out the family home and precious few pictures, etc. survived.
I got my first wolf picture in the valley in I think 2009- there's a post on here somewhere about it - now it's commonplace. I encounter them often riding the FS roads and hiking. I'm getting at least the same, if not more number of wolf pics than coyotes. My cams everywhere get them.
Here's a couple trail cam vids from this fall and more recently. The 3/14 vid is 3-15 second clips, so there's a little stutter between each section, it kind of jumps. Hard to tell for certain with the transitions, but for sure there's at least 8. Tougher living now to be a deer in the Methow for sure.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54398083667_87fe16029e_o.gif)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54414937203_7a7d2be3f2_o.gif)
Post by: actionshooter on March 27, 2025, 08:49:44 PM
All those mega fires are due to humans mismanaging our forests for the last 100 years. Mother natures design wasn't meant to have that kind of fuel load on the landscape. Instead of stuff burning every now and then and improving habitat, we put out every spark for decades then when it does go up it's scorched earth and can't support anything.I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.
Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.
This is where I struggle. I get ya on the fire suppression, but at the same time they are letting fires burn up a ton of country. MD are surely adapt at avoiding some fires, but when they get big (fires) it's gotta be hard to outrun a blaze. Think Pioneer, Duncan, Wolverine, Tyee, Cougar, Thirtymile, Carlton, Okanogan, black canyon, retreat, Tripod, domke, etc etc............ We have burned up alot of deer, and at the same time habitat...,..which allows for more harvest due to visibility.
I believe this is 100% true and super happy the fire suppression issue is starting to be recognized and I believe that can be turned around.... with all of the developments and orchards in the winter grounds, not as sure about that.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 28, 2025, 05:54:51 AM
Post by: OutHouse on March 28, 2025, 02:03:45 PM
The USFS has been running up the cost of these mega fires i.e. complex and last years Pioneer fire by doing things that aren't even close to the fire zone. If your going to brush back roads, dump gravel on those areas not close to the fire it shouldn't be charged to it. Then to build fire breaks in case the fire gets that big don't go back in and tear it up afterwards. Leave it for future usage. All this adds to the fire cost.
Good point. When that big fire ripped through Mazama on the south side of the highway a few years ago they cut wide fire breaks in the forest, and then I saw them spend weeks digging them up and throwing logs into them to make them hard to drive on should be people try to. I imagine that cost a ton of money.
Post by: timberfaller on March 28, 2025, 04:09:34 PM
The Pioneer fire last year had a new element coming into fire scenes, political pressure by area "dwellers". Just my :twocents: In all my years, it is the only thing that makes any sense of the weird stuff that went on.
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 28, 2025, 05:06:00 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 28, 2025, 11:27:20 PM
There was a study of collared deer in the Methow valley showing a majority of those deer had moved to the orchards around Chelan. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out predators forced them out.I wonder what the groomer for the snowmobile trails would say about the deer he sees in the winter?
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 28, 2025, 11:55:59 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 29, 2025, 04:00:05 PM
There are still deer in the valley, I don’t think anyone is denying that, and there are still big bucks to be had but it’s foolish imo to think this herd is anywhere even remotely close to what it once was. A mere shadow of what it once was is even not close. The “local herd” has been affected and the migratory herd has taken a beating. Yes, more encroachment, more vehicle impacts and number 1 IMO, more predators. The trifecta I guess you could call it. Out of the 3 the biggest one being predators could be managed, but are not. They (the predators) have moved up the ladder and have taken over the number 1 spot as a priority. The herd was once the darling of the “Game Department” so to speak, no longer, there’s a new darling of the WDFW and the growing “new human inhabitants” of the valley.
I also agree to a certain extent with the folks who believe fires and even tough winters are a factor. The thing is that’s Mother Nature, those two have been happening since the beginning of time. Having said that, we can’t control the weather but I believe we can do a much better job of forest management etc, timberfaller, I agree 100 percent with your views on this concerning the herd and deer numbers, 100 percent 👍
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 29, 2025, 11:26:01 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 29, 2025, 11:32:55 PM
Post by: chukardogs on March 30, 2025, 10:44:06 AM
We could see my father and another hunter were already on the trail above the road when deer started coming out of the canyon onto the road. We watched as the road filled with a herd of Mule deer. Because of the hunters above, the deer all mingled and milled about for a while. There were four big bucks completely surrounded by the does and smaller bucks. My guess has always been upwards of 40 deer were standing in the road before they all turned and went back down the canyon.
Back then in November, if you hit the migration at the right time you could go up on the ridge south of Maverick Saddle and find areas that looked like a herd of cows had been driven through there.
Are there deer, sure. My guess is the deer population is less than 25% of what it was in the 60s. If we stay on the path we're on now with predator populations at all time highs, the migratory populations don't have a chance to rebound. Just the bears killing fawns in the spring is enough to keep the population where it's at. Throw in Wolves and Cougars and the fact that a lot of the wolves have cattle and sheep available, meaning their numbers won't drop with the prey as they should and it all just gets worse.
There'll always be the deer populations that have figured out that living in someone's back yard ain't so bad but disease seems to be taking its toll on those populations also.
Ain't good but what can you do but keep at it?
Good luck out there!
Post by: bigmacc on March 30, 2025, 03:55:09 PM
Yes you are right all of the deer are not all gone but a lot less and they are now no longer in the normal winter rangeYep, “a lot less” deer is a true statement. I believe they have the Methow herd pegged at right around 13k-17k when at one time not to long ago it was 30-40k. Their estimates of 13-17k in my opinion and others is inflated, anyway you look at it this herd has taken a beating over the last 20-30 years, when the coddling of predators took over( the ban on hound hunting etc and wolves) the spiral really took hold, an explosion of cougars whacking them 365 24/7, and a growing bear population targeting the fawn crops then wolves. This herd doesn’t really stand a chance to “rebound”. Not saying other herds are hurting as bad or some deer are trying to “escape” by going into totally different areas to winter but the fact is the once mighty Methow herd has been reduced to a trickle.
Piss poor forest management, human encroachment etc play their part also but the predator issue in this valley is huge and getting worse every year. Some old timers warned years ago that it would eventually become a “predator pit”, well I’ll be darned, so hey, let’s let some grizzlies loose too :bash: :bash:
It all proves my point of how far the herd has slipped down the totem pole so to speak, at one time they were at the top, no longer, the herd has been replaced by the “new darlings”.
Post by: timberfaller on March 30, 2025, 04:28:10 PM
You will find out whenever you are having to "deal" with government agents, no matter their degree's in wildlife, Predation by certain animals will be "ignored"! :bash: I have come across this phenomenal "ideology" in all my conflicts with them. This occurs weather its wildlife or Fish!
Ya can't fix stupid no matter how smart they think they are!
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 31, 2025, 08:04:37 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 31, 2025, 08:19:23 AM
Every year I do a public records request for different GMU's where I know they do helicopter surveys after the deer season. This year (2024)in 242 Alta Fitkin /Troyer did theirs. There was 220 does, 163 fawn, 51 bucks for a total of 434 deer. That's a far cry from some of the numbers people are throwing out there. Pearrygin 224 was the only one better with 331 deer. The trend hasn't shown it getting any better in the years I been requesting these.
Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
Post by: timberfaller on March 31, 2025, 09:04:40 AM
I remember when the Gun Ranch draw over to Cub Cr. and down to the Big Valley alone had those kind of numbers, when they migrated back in the winter. That was only one of many ranges in the valley. Deer Hill would have close to 100 Whitetail. The valley is a far cry from its former glory. And for those old enough to remember, the Gunn Ranch was full of pheasants when it produced hay.
Post by: sooperfly on March 31, 2025, 09:34:15 AM
Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
I posted this a few years ago. This is from 1938.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49171921791_dcfde26417_b.jpg)
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 31, 2025, 10:12:02 AM
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 31, 2025, 01:44:00 PM
Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
I posted this a few years ago. This is from 1938.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49171921791_dcfde26417_b.jpg)
So is what you’re saying is that in 1938 there were more deer in a single drainage that we have in the whole region today? Hum, if only the state would have created a department to manage our deer populations back then…
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 31, 2025, 11:56:02 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on April 01, 2025, 05:24:57 AM
Post by: bigmacc on April 01, 2025, 09:14:31 AM
So sad how about a 2024 map? Probably should not even ask.Sorry, I removed it, totally worded it wrong.
What I meant was I remember seeing those count graphs back in the 60’s when my dad was working with bios. The numbers I remember seeing are shockingly different from today.
Post by: timberfaller on April 01, 2025, 09:38:34 AM
Remember the days line skidding on the Gold Cr. main road during hunting season!! USFS told us we had to stop doing what we were and let the hunters pass by. What a nightmare! Lucky to get a load of logs decked in a day!! Get a couple of logs on the road to clean up, and here would come someone pulling a trailer, stop, clean the road off, move the machine to where the hunter could get by. Glad we were being paid by the hour!!
Post by: bigmacc on April 01, 2025, 04:49:02 PM
Sooperfly, for clarification, you said this map was from 1938? The count numbers are red and blue, is it a comparison of different years?Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
I posted this a few years ago. This is from 1938.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49171921791_dcfde26417_b.jpg)
Thanks in advance👍
We seen some similar back in the day that were counts of “bucks” and “does” and also seen some that were total deer counts along with a few that even broke them down even more ,ie forked horn or better. Wish I had taken pictures of the graphs. I remember as a kid watching them do the “roundup” up by Sullivans pond where they’d run them into a big net corral,(horseback and at times helicopters)count them, tag some etc., come up with a estimate of what was in the area etc., also based on folks counting who were out in the surrounding area posted in staging areas etc. Then like I said before they would post college kids in routes who also counted, with a “clicker”😆 Deer actually counted on winter turf was done differently and sometimes different than actual “migrations” back in my day. They counted deer coming in, they counted where they ended up and sometimes counted and studied the reverse migration (including fawns) that would head back to summer ranges. IMO, a lot more went into the herd than is being executed these days as far as coming up with “numbers” and counts.
Post by: bigmacc on April 05, 2025, 07:39:33 PM
There was. There was actually folks working for the government watching over, counting and caring for this herd going back to the 1920’s. My uncle Gabe was one of them, helping out in mostly the 30’s and 40’s, I’ve posted pictures of him on here with some of the bucks he killed. His brother eventually went on to work for Alaska Fish and Game, his son eventually worked for Idaho Fish and Game. The actual “Game Department” started buying up land in the Methow in the early 40’s. This is why I asked sooperfly for clarification, if indeed his graphic was from 1938 my uncle may have been involved with the count. Like I said, as a kid and young man I remember seeing many “graphs/count maps” like the one sooperfly posted, some resembled his post. Some were even more detailed and some were not. I remember my dad and some bios going over “count maps” from previous years back in the 50’s and 60’s asking him and my grandpa their opinions of how they thought deer got from point A to point B(migration routes) it was pretty fascinating listening to the conversations. Make no mistake, there’s been government folks, agents, wardens etc watching over this herd and involved with this herd for over 100 years. It’s just the last 30 or so where that has drastically changed, the “herd” in general has been surpassed in importance by the new “darlings”, imho.Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
I posted this a few years ago. This is from 1938.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49171921791_dcfde26417_b.jpg)
So is what you’re saying is that in 1938 there were more deer in a single drainage that we have in the whole region today? Hum, if only the state would have created a department to manage our deer populations back then…
Post by: sooperfly on April 05, 2025, 10:21:11 PM
Sooperfly, for clarification, you said this map was from 1938? The count numbers are red and blue, is it a comparison of different years?Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
I posted this a few years ago. This is from 1938.
Thanks in advance👍
Sorry! Red is from 1937, Blue 1938.
Post by: bigmacc on April 06, 2025, 09:17:54 AM
👍 Thank you for the clarification sooperfly, that’s what I had originally thought. My uncle could have been involved.Sooperfly, for clarification, you said this map was from 1938? The count numbers are red and blue, is it a comparison of different years?Do you have any past numbers for comparison?
I posted this a few years ago. This is from 1938.
Thanks in advance👍
Sorry! Red is from 1937, Blue 1938.
Post by: no.cen.wa on April 07, 2025, 02:38:01 PM
anyway when I told him of the deer we saw and he replied " THAT'S TOO BAD! He told me he would ride his horse up there and count deer but would lose track when the count got over 1000!
There is nothing there now, maybe see a doe or 2 if lucky. I've never been a guy who could sit still for too long but I'm better at it since I passed 75 years old!
Thanks for the comments tho!
Post by: bigmacc on April 07, 2025, 04:11:10 PM
Thanks sooperfly and bigmacc for the info and comments! I remember during the 1980's season my Dad and I were on Southridge/Wolf canyon looking south toward the Frazer creek/ highway 20 area of the Methow game range. As we sat watching deer cross over a ridge between Shrive canyon and Peterson canyon. a line of 87 deer crossed heading east. mostly does, a few bucks but no big bucks. I thought that was great till I told my grandfather,,," he had leased a ranch toward Twisp just before the Simmons place."( later was the Tice Ranch)Hey no.cen.wa :hello: Good to hear from you.
anyway when I told him of the deer we saw and he replied " THAT'S TOO BAD! He told me he would ride his horse up there and count deer but would lose track when the count got over 1000!
There is nothing there now, maybe see a doe or 2 if lucky. I've never been a guy who could sit still for too long but I'm better at it since I passed 75 years old!
Thanks for the comments tho!
Yes times have changed. For sure and not in a good way as far as deer numbers are concerned in the valley.
I keep looking at sooperflys count map and can’t believe how far this particular herd has decreased. I had some friends and a couple family members over there in the early winter last year doing “their counts” like our family has done for over a century, dismal, as most know especially compared to what sooperfly posted and what a lot of us on here used to experience. We stopped our spring counts years ago which was my great grandmas favorite part back in the day because of all the fawns she would see, hundreds and hundreds of them. A lot of them in tow heading for the summer range, the reverse migration is what we called it. She would sit in routes for hours, sometimes days at a time with nothing but a tent, some food and a coffee pot. The stories she told of those events was nothing short of spectacular. Those migrations are not even a trickle these days. If even existent.
I know a lot of folks on here have similar stories and memories and they are all true but for some may seem like a “tale”. Especially the stories like your grandfather told you and the stories told by folks with that “history”.
Now days seeing 20-30 deer in those same spots sooperfly showed are reported as “lots of deer” etc. numbers are skewed to bring in license sales etc. Bottom line imo, take care of the herd again, stop coddling the predators and be honest about the decline. They probably can’t wait for some of us to “disappear” so these stories won’t be told anymore 😆
Once again, good to hear from you no.cen.wa👍
Post by: Romulus1297 on April 07, 2025, 11:19:04 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 08, 2025, 04:20:03 AM
Post by: sooperfly on April 08, 2025, 11:49:43 AM
This is a stitched together picture from six pictures. So there can be spots that are fuzzy, etc.
This was the last time I've seen that many deer together in the valley.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54292165901_249b1a2f1b_4k.jpg)
Post by: bigmacc on April 08, 2025, 03:48:49 PM
I posted this picture back in 2010. 15 Years...Oooof.. time is flying.Great picture. 15 years imagine that same turf 30, 40 or 50 years ago.
This is a stitched together picture from six pictures. So there can be spots that are fuzzy, etc.
This was the last time I've seen that many deer together in the valley.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54292165901_249b1a2f1b_4k.jpg)
I told the story of one time back in the early 60,s I believe when I was sitting on a rock outcropping during hunting season. The weather had hit hard up high about 3 days earlier. I watched over 500 deer at least(to many to count) come through, over a hundred bucks, mostly smaller, spikes, two points and smaller type bucks, no big boys. It was amazing to say the least. We didn’t have cell phones and we didn’t pack cameras etc back then, pictures were for back at camp. I’m glad I still remember those times, I’ve wrote many of them down for my kids but they sure were a frequent acurrance back then. That “bunch” that came through that day moved through my vision in less than an hour, they were on the move, get from point A to point B type of thing. I remember walking down into the area when I was on my way out, it literally looked like a herd of cattle had just went through, the ground/light snow covered was tore up. Another thing I remember about that experience was how I seen the lead doe come out of a thicket, head down, moving. I knew there were more coming but I had no idea I was going to see what I did.
The next 4 or 5 days( :dunno:) I think we killed 7 or 8 big bucks in that same spot. The bigger bucks started moving through, with the next phase. Even those groups consisted of 30, 40 and more deer. I remember our bunch being in there killing 4 big bucks in a matter of about 6 hours. We would get down, gut em and get back only to sit for another hour or so and knock down some more. Yes sooperfly, time does fly. Cherish those memories and moments you have.
“Good ole days”, yes they vary with us all especially depending on age, thanks for following up and thanks for sharing your pictures.
Post by: yakimanoob on April 10, 2025, 11:51:48 AM
2024 Game Status and Trends Report (published in Feb 2025)
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02567/wdfw02567.pdf (https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02567/wdfw02567.pdf)
You've gotta do some reading, but you can find your zone and see the actual population surveys, harvest reports, and hunter-days. For my zone, the population got hit hard in 2015–17 as is well-known, but the population is holding steady and harvests continue to tick up despite falling hunter participation.
Post by: mountainman on April 10, 2025, 12:19:58 PM
I posted this picture back in 2010. 15 Years...Oooof.. time is flying.Springtime back in the old days in the Methow!
This is a stitched together picture from six pictures. So there can be spots that are fuzzy, etc.
This was the last time I've seen that many deer together in the valley.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54292165901_249b1a2f1b_4k.jpg)
Post by: GOcougsHunter on April 10, 2025, 12:46:13 PM
Post by: bigmacc on April 10, 2025, 02:42:12 PM
If Lincoln County counts as Central Washington? Mule deer populations appear to be doing great. I counted 20 deer in this picture. This was actually 10 days ago, not 2024 like the camera states. Still very very few whitetails.👍 I have friends in Lincoln Co., Grant also. Seems they are seeing the same. Good to hear. The predator “blowup”, wolves, cats and bears doesn’t seem near as bad as a few other areas are experiencing. Let’s hope it stays that way, coyotes, that’s a whole nother story, I’ve seen pictures of some of their yote hunts, wow!
Post by: NOCK NOCK on April 10, 2025, 05:47:18 PM
Post by: MeepDog on April 11, 2025, 08:43:41 PM
No there’s not public land. Everyone and their brother hunts out there.
Post by: teal101 on April 15, 2025, 06:45:28 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on April 15, 2025, 08:43:46 AM
Now if I can just keep them out of my gardens and keep the bucks from rubbing up the trees, I will be happy
Post by: jstone on April 15, 2025, 09:08:31 AM
Post by: teal101 on April 15, 2025, 11:23:15 AM
I moved up a canyon outside Cashmere beginning of the month. Its 2.5 miles from the highway up the canyon road to my house and there are days I will see 50-75 deer in that little stretch. The part that I like the most is that it appears almost all the does have fawns/yearlings with them.
Now if I can just keep them out of my gardens and keep the bucks from rubbing up the trees, I will be happy
The fawn recruitment from what we've seen was extremely good last year. Some groups they make up 50% of the animals. Very good to see.
Post by: teal101 on April 15, 2025, 11:24:54 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on April 15, 2025, 11:36:40 AM
I moved up a canyon outside Cashmere beginning of the month. Its 2.5 miles from the highway up the canyon road to my house and there are days I will see 50-75 deer in that little stretch. The part that I like the most is that it appears almost all the does have fawns/yearlings with them.
Now if I can just keep them out of my gardens and keep the bucks from rubbing up the trees, I will be happy
The fawn recruitment from what we've seen was extremely good last year. Some groups they make up 50% of the animals. Very good to see.
Agreed. On the way to work this morning at the bottom of the canyon I had to stop to let 3 does cross and each had good healthy looking fawns
Post by: bigmacc on April 16, 2025, 07:43:25 PM
If you have a chance to acquire this book it's a pretty cool read on how the herd used to be.Excellent book!!!! We have an original. It is a great study of what the Methow herd was at one time(50’s and 60’s) I look it over from time to time. Less times than more nowadays, at least for myself it’s quite depressing. I actually seen those migrations as well as others on here, first hand. It’s an eye opener for some who may think or may perceive some of the stories told here about that herd could be fictional. Good on you to bring up the book. It’s certainly out of date and no where near accurate these days but still a bit of history of that particular herd and solidifies what has happened to it. By the way, for what it’s worth, some of my family were involved.
Post by: teal101 on April 17, 2025, 12:03:11 PM
If you have a chance to acquire this book it's a pretty cool read on how the herd used to be.Excellent book!!!! We have an original. It is a great study of what the Methow herd was at one time(50’s and 60’s) I look it over from time to time. Less times than more nowadays, at least for myself it’s quite depressing. I actually seen those migrations as well as others on here, first hand. It’s an eye opener for some who may think or may perceive some of the stories told here about that herd could be fictional. Good on you to bring up the book. It’s certainly out of date and no where near accurate these days but still a bit of history of that particular herd and solidifies what has happened to it. By the way, for what it’s worth, some of my family were involved.
It took me awhile to find a copy and cost me a pretty penny, but it was worth it. I havent read it in depth yet, but have thumbed through it a bit. While it may be out of date, it is an excellent resource on the history of the herd and I had to have it for my library. Very cool your family was involved with it. If only the current WDFW put out publications like this with this much data so the public could see what is happening to their resources.
Post by: bigmacc on April 17, 2025, 07:05:33 PM
Ive talked with a few folks who have found that book on various websites, Amazon, Facebook etc, yes they are pricy, if you can even find it👍 You’re right, back then the herd was treated “differently” so to speak. If only we had a “WDFW” that put that same time, effort and energy into what’s left of that herd today. Like I’ve said as well as others, the herd itself has been surpassed as far as a “priority” nowadays.If you have a chance to acquire this book it's a pretty cool read on how the herd used to be.Excellent book!!!! We have an original. It is a great study of what the Methow herd was at one time(50’s and 60’s) I look it over from time to time. Less times than more nowadays, at least for myself it’s quite depressing. I actually seen those migrations as well as others on here, first hand. It’s an eye opener for some who may think or may perceive some of the stories told here about that herd could be fictional. Good on you to bring up the book. It’s certainly out of date and no where near accurate these days but still a bit of history of that particular herd and solidifies what has happened to it. By the way, for what it’s worth, some of my family were involved.
It took me awhile to find a copy and cost me a pretty penny, but it was worth it. I havent read it in depth yet, but have thumbed through it a bit. While it may be out of date, it is an excellent resource on the history of the herd and I had to have it for my library. Very cool your family was involved with it. If only the current WDFW put out publications like this with this much data so the public could see what is happening to their resources.
Still, a great book and a great read, at least to bring attention to a time long gone.
Post by: timberfaller on April 17, 2025, 08:38:46 PM
:tup: My brother in law has his pictures in that book, worked with the "Game Department" during that study. He was the one who generally got to jump in the trap so they could do their tagging and other things. Oh he got some story's!! He also got the job of autopsying road kills looking for all kinds of "bugs". Then, because he was a great shot, he was allowed to put down deer in various areas to do the same. Never missed, one shot every time, with a Remington 788 in 222 no less!! If you only knew what was in a deer carcass, you just might not wanna eat one!!! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Good luck on finding the book, its been out of print for some time. And I know my BIL will not loan out or sell his copy!! Ole Sig B. had just come on as the valley's "Game Warden". I showed up in 74 and married his wife's sister. Spent a lot of time hunting with my BIL over the years, sure miss those days!!
Post by: boneaddict on April 18, 2025, 06:39:46 AM
Post by: timberfaller on April 18, 2025, 09:07:35 AM
He would ticket his own mother!! Sneaky is the word that best describes him!! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on April 19, 2025, 03:05:25 PM
:yeah:Yes sir, Sig was a hell of a warden for sure👍 I really liked him. Our old buddy Wayne F. said the same thing. “Sig goes by the book and loves his deer, if his mom accidentally shot a deer 1 minute before shooting time he’d have her written up before it was 1 minute after shooting time”🤣
He would ticket his own mother!! Sneaky is the word that best describes him!! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Ole Mountjoy was another dandy, love that guy👍
Post by: mountainman on April 22, 2025, 08:53:16 AM
Did some undercover for Sig, late 80’s, to bust a poaching ring raising havoc in the Methow. Between them, and some tribal issues, he was a busy man!:yeah:Yes sir, Sig was a hell of a warden for sure👍 I really liked him. Our old buddy Wayne F. said the same thing. “Sig goes by the book and loves his deer, if his mom accidentally shot a deer 1 minute before shooting time he’d have her written up before it was 1 minute after shooting time”🤣
He would ticket his own mother!! Sneaky is the word that best describes him!! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Ole Mountjoy was another dandy, love that guy👍
Post by: timberfaller on April 22, 2025, 09:52:22 AM
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2025, 01:04:40 PM
Sig was a great guy! Fair, honest and one hell of a warden.
+1
Post by: bigmacc on April 22, 2025, 03:31:04 PM
Post by: bigmacc on April 22, 2025, 03:46:06 PM
Post by: bigmacc on April 27, 2025, 04:32:06 PM
"If you have a chance to acquire this book it's a pretty cool read on how the herd used to be." quote of teal101Good stuff timberfaller, good stuff👍
:tup: My brother in law has his pictures in that book, worked with the "Game Department" during that study. He was the one who generally got to jump in the trap so they could do their tagging and other things. Oh he got some story's!! He also got the job of autopsying road kills looking for all kinds of "bugs". Then, because he was a great shot, he was allowed to put down deer in various areas to do the same. Never missed, one shot every time, with a Remington 788 in 222 no less!! If you only knew what was in a deer carcass, you just might not wanna eat one!!! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Good luck on finding the book, its been out of print for some time. And I know my BIL will not loan out or sell his copy!! Ole Sig B. had just come on as the valley's "Game Warden". I showed up in 74 and married his wife's sister. Spent a lot of time hunting with my BIL over the years, sure miss those days!!