Post by: bobcat on July 13, 2009, 11:30:02 PM
Outdoors: Some worry use of guns a risk to others
JOHN DODGE; The Olympian | • Published July 13, 2009
Reckless and destructive discharge of firearms continues to plague the Capitol State Forest, recreational users and neighbors say.
In the past three weeks, vandals have peppered four new signs installed in the forest with bullets and shotgun pellets. The cost to replace the signs is pegged at about $1,000, said Phil Wolff, a state Department of Natural Resources recreation manager assigned to the Olympia-area forest.
In tough budget times, the vandalism is especially troubling, Wolff said.
“It’s money that could be used to pump an outhouse, replace a couple of rotten picnic tables, repair four campground fire rings or grade a campground parking area,” he said.
Damage to signs from firearms is nothing new in a forest where recreational target shooting is legal and hunting is widely accepted.
But in a 100,000-acre working forest that hosts about 100,000 visitors a year, conflicts among the various user groups can and do arise.
Mountain bicyclists, horseback riders, motorcyclists, hunters, hikers, campers and target shooters flock to the forest, which has 180 miles of trails evenly split between motorized and non-motorized use.
The hunting and target shooting is dispersed throughout the forest, although target shooting is supposed to be at manufactured targets placed against earthen backstops no closer than 500 feet from a campground, structure or residence and not on, down, next to or across roads and trails, according to recent rules developed by DNR.
Shooters also are supposed to pick up their shell casings, ammunition packaging and other debris.
Some question whether that is enough to make the forest safe for everyone.
“Sometimes you hear gunshots from 50 feet away,” said John Kramer, a Capitol Forest mountain biker and member of the volunteer group Friends of Capitol Forest. “Multiple riders have been pinned down by fire from rifles, semi-automatic weapons and handguns.”
Dave Snyder, another Friends of Capitol Forest member and a nearby resident, said he enjoys riding his mountain bike in the forest, as well as target shooting.
“Safe shooting can exist in the forest,” he said.
“I don’t have an issue with hunting,” said Capitol State Forest neighbor Marshall Oatman. “But it’s like a free-for-all up here with the random shooting. Nothing short of an outright ban is going to work. What are we waiting for? A stray bullet to hit a biker?”
DNR officials shudder at that thought as they walk a fine line, trying to accommodate all of the users of the Capitol State Forest and their other holdings across the state.
“This is a big emerging issue statewide; it’s high on our radar screen,” DNR spokeswoman Jane Chavey said. “With increased public-access closures on private forestlands, we’ve become the last spot in the lowlands.”
With suburban and rural population growth, the Capitol State Forest no longer is the remote place it once was.
And amid tough economic times and high fuel prices, the public is turning more and more to state lands for recreation closer to home, said Larry Raedel, chief of law enforcement services for DNR.
Raedel has two officers working in the Pacific Cascade Region of DNR, which takes in much of Southwest Washington, including the Capitol State Forest.
“We’re spread pretty thin,” he said. “We really rely on the public to be our eyes and ears in the woods.”
Formed four years ago, Friends of Capitol Forest has helped clean up garbage dumped in the forest, deterred vandalism by making parking areas more secure and placed giant stumps in areas where illegal off-road access has developed.
“The forest is pretty clean right now,” Snyder said as he surveyed an older dump site on a rutted trail littered with shotgun shells. “If we can keep it cleaned up, there will be less incentive for people to dump.”
The forest also escaped a recent round of DNR budget cuts to the agency’s recreational program, which lost 50 percent of its funding in the 2009 state budget.
But the forest is not immune to service cuts later in the two-year budget cycle, Wolff said.
“In tight budget times, we certainly don’t need vandalism,” he said.
John Dodge: 360-754-5444
jdodge@theolympian.com
Post by: alecvg on July 13, 2009, 11:44:49 PM
Post by: pacyew on July 14, 2009, 04:45:17 AM
Hunting and target shooting is dispersed throughout the forest, although target shooting is supposed to be at manufactured targets placed against earthen backstops no closer than 500 feet from a campground, structure or residence and not on, down, next to or across roads and trails, according to recent rules developed by DNR.
The State already has a ban on open shooting in effect, but no apparent means of enforcement. I don't know what the solution is, but an outright ban of all shooting may mean tighter firearms rules on us all while having no effect on the problem.
Post by: billythekidrock on July 14, 2009, 04:51:51 AM
There is a lot of trash (FOCF said it was clean and that it not true) and way too many dangerous shooters but banning hunting and safe shooting should not be the answer.
They just put up a ton of new signs (spending fiscal year budget money) and most already have been shot. I did not see the need for new signs, other then they just needed to spend it. :dunno: But I don't understand the need for shooters to use them as targets. Especially the ones along the main roads and enterances.
Who are these idiots? They are the ones giving us a bad name and they are the ones who will ruin it for everyone.
Post by: rasbo on July 14, 2009, 05:17:07 AM
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 05:38:48 AM
I think they should shut down Mtn Bikers from there as there are numerous accidents every year. Whats it going to take, a young kid hiking to get run over. (Get my point)
Post by: whacker1 on July 14, 2009, 06:17:20 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on July 14, 2009, 07:17:21 AM
Post by: wolfbait on July 14, 2009, 08:35:21 AM
Post by: alecvg on July 14, 2009, 09:49:04 AM
It looks to me that the article perfectly orchestrated what they are trying to do......shut down guns. You couldn't grasp the anti- gun spin on that? It even worked on one of our members. THen they managed to tie it into all DNR lands. hmmmmmmm Seems pretty evident to me.
I think they should shut down Mtn Bikers from there as there are numerous accidents every year. Whats it going to take, a young kid hiking to get run over. (Get my point)
I see what you mean bone, but there are too many idiots, Maybe they shouldn't shut down guns, but have enforcement, which the obviosly don't have, safe shooters shouldnt be punished, but it is better than someone being killed!
Post by: Kain on July 14, 2009, 10:29:34 AM
Hate to throw this in here: "Do to the danger of wolves this area is now closed" Not a nice thought is it? Could be in the near future we will be seeing these signs.
It happens. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=10258162
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 10:36:54 AM
Quote
but there are too many idiots
Thats the problem. WIth todays society, nothing is done with them, and they are allowed to breed.
"Due to poor budgeting and piss poor financial times, we are sorry, there is not enough man power to enforce current laws."
Why is that. Could it be court costs, could it be because you are having fancy decals put on your cop car, could it be the wanton waste of taxpayer dollars. Could it be the 12 chiefs and administrative secretaries versus the one guy in the field. You might wonder why people start taking things in their own hands.
Post by: Curly on July 14, 2009, 10:48:19 AM
Anyway, I was real polite and just packed up our stuff and left, but I wasn't happy about it because of the way the deputy was talking down to me acting like we were being unsafe idiots.
Apparently it was a property owner with some horses about a half mile or so down the road that called the sheriff. Turns out that the gunshots were scaring the livestock. I can understand that I guess, and I don't want to be scaring someones animals, but for the deputy to start out yelling at us for being unsafe................it pissed me off......... >:( He said there used to be signs saying no shooting but they keep getting torn down. I've never seen any signs there either, so that kind of pissed me off too. If they don't want shooting they need to have signs.
Post by: billythekidrock on July 14, 2009, 04:47:03 PM
Maybe they shouldn't shut down guns, but have enforcement, which the obviosly don't have,
As far as enforcement. DNR has the two and the Sheriffs will not go up there unless called. I have spoke to many in the area and they tell me that they do not patrol the forest.
Post by: alecvg on July 14, 2009, 05:04:30 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on July 14, 2009, 05:16:20 PM
Well, maybe when the people get shot at, or "pinned down" They should shoot back, self defence. :dunno:
What a dumb response. Do you want someone shot or killed?
Have you ever been in the woods and had a shot fired (in a safe direction) that scared you because you were not aware someone was nearby? That is what is happening. No one is being shot at or "pinned down". This article is part of an agenda that probably includes the Democratic head of DNR as well as the "Friends of Capitol Forest".
Post by: Houndhunter on July 14, 2009, 06:13:03 PM
Post by: runamuk on July 15, 2009, 07:33:38 PM
Well, maybe when the people get shot at, or "pinned down" They should shoot back, self defence. :dunno:
What a dumb response. Do you want someone shot or killed?
Have you ever been in the woods and had a shot fired (in a safe direction) that scared you because you were not aware someone was nearby? That is what is happening. No one is being shot at or "pinned down". This article is part of an agenda that probably includes the Democratic head of DNR as well as the "Friends of Capitol Forest".
BTKR when I read some of this I was remembering my trip to "the other end" of the CF where there were bikes and horses and crowds...OH and A SHOOTING RANGE ...we heard plenty of gunfire and it sounded awful close but only took a couple minutes to figure out it was coming from the range so no real danger there.
So far I have not had any situations with stupid shooting....plenty of idiots leaving trash and cases behind....but no situations with shooting that made me nervous......and Yeah the Signs what the hell I thought we had no money for schools and police why the hell did we need new signs for the morons to shoot.... :bash: :bash: :bash:
after listening to this piece this morning I went with the its an agenda and mostly BS theory.... but I also avoid that other end of the forest...lol
Post by: Up a Creek on July 17, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
Post by: alecvg on July 18, 2009, 01:12:13 PM
Well, maybe when the people get shot at, or "pinned down" They should shoot back, self defence. :dunno:
What a dumb response. Do you want someone shot or killed?
Have you ever been in the woods and had a shot fired (in a safe direction) that scared you because you were not aware someone was nearby? That is what is happening. No one is being shot at or "pinned down". This article is part of an agenda that probably includes the Democratic head of DNR as well as the "Friends of Capitol Forest".
I was being sarcastic.
Post by: ICEMAN on July 20, 2009, 06:14:13 AM
What do you guys think if some of us were to try the following:
Email the newspaper, friends of the forest or whatever..., DNR and anyone else of authority that I am personally going up this weekend to pick up trash for a day.... Take my kids up, do some shooting the right way with proper earthen backstop....then pick up a bunch of other crap that wasn't ours..... Take good photos of what we have done, then recap the day for all.
If we had serious, conscientious hunters do this periodically, on a personal level, letting all involved see that we are personally helping the situation....would this help or hurt.
Would notifying those involved that we are trying to improve the situation help or hurt our side of the argument?
Post by: billythekidrock on July 20, 2009, 06:26:57 AM
Post by: boneaddict on July 20, 2009, 06:27:38 AM
The mentallity really pisses me off. ITs like all the trash along the roadway. Does that mean EVERY motorist is a crapbird litterbug. NO, just a few worthless scum.
Post by: murphyranch on July 20, 2009, 07:02:07 AM
Post by: runamuk on July 20, 2009, 07:07:06 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on July 20, 2009, 07:37:48 AM
I was just thinking that striking while the issue was current, may get a bit of good press for hunters.
We always pick up a bunch of trash. Every time. We keep vinyl throwaway gloves and trash bags in the truck all year just for this purpose. My kids have already learned that sometimes we need to pick up after others!
I know of three spots in particular that get slammed with junk, two on the Rock Candy side, one at Delphi..... We all know of spots that get it. Maybe we could attack it from all sides and post the results here, with pictures and estimates of how much trash we gathered, how many people hours we donated...?
In the long run, we ought to have a mid summer yearly cleaning of the Capitol forest, organized, maybe get someone like Lemay or somebody to donate one trash dumpster for the day...
I envision in the future planning it out well in advance, having a check in station, assign roads to each person arriving to volunteer, have a volunteer fire rescue team standing by for "owies", get a vendor to donate hot dogs and sodas, do it up right. I even can see getting a radio station to push it, to get all users involved. A yearly clean up day. I would love to help organize something like this, what a great legacy to be involved with. I bet I could get Cabelas on board, even get a few door prizes...
For this weekend, I could do Sunday. Anyone interested in donating a few hours to trash duty, post it up here. Could be a great weekend for it, nice weather, the berries are ready to pick.....
Let me know!
Post by: jackelope on July 20, 2009, 10:47:57 AM
Post by: runamuk on July 20, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
Wow! I would love to make this happen, and nice to see a few potential volunteers.
I was just thinking that striking while the issue was current, may get a bit of good press for hunters.
We always pick up a bunch of trash. Every time. We keep vinyl throwaway gloves and trash bags in the truck all year just for this purpose. My kids have already learned that sometimes we need to pick up after others!
I know of three spots in particular that get slammed with junk, two on the Rock Candy side, one at Delphi..... We all know of spots that get it. Maybe we could attack it from all sides and post the results here, with pictures and estimates of how much trash we gathered, how many people hours we donated...?
In the long run, we ought to have a mid summer yearly cleaning of the Capitol forest, organized, maybe get someone like Lemay or somebody to donate one trash dumpster for the day...
I envision in the future planning it out well in advance, having a check in station, assign roads to each person arriving to volunteer, have a volunteer fire rescue team standing by for "owies", get a vendor to donate hot dogs and sodas, do it up right. I even can see getting a radio station to push it, to get all users involved. A yearly clean up day. I would love to help organize something like this, what a great legacy to be involved with. I bet I could get Cabelas on board, even get a few door prizes...
For this weekend, I could do Sunday. Anyone interested in donating a few hours to trash duty, post it up here. Could be a great weekend for it, nice weather, the berries are ready to pick.....
Let me know!
Ice you have great vision......and if you want some help in enacting it let me know....I feel kinda attached to this forest seeing as I darn near live in it....
Sunday I work in the afternoon BUT I could get out for a couple hours in the earlier part of the day and I bet I can con my family into going out as well....gonna have to go get my map out of the truck...don't have a clue where you are talking about ..... I tend to stick to my side and rarely venture too far toward where all the ORV's and campgrounds are....
Post by: Houndhunter on July 20, 2009, 04:33:24 PM
Post by: Bofire on July 21, 2009, 10:15:20 AM
If ya'll pick a day I'll try to make it out to pick up some trash, lets be sure to call a reporter to do a story, How about Bob Brown out of Eatonville??
Carl
Post by: rasbo on July 21, 2009, 10:28:19 AM
Post by: KillBilly on July 21, 2009, 10:28:55 AM
Post by: rasbo on July 21, 2009, 10:33:41 AM
If we do it, we should do it because we think it is the right thing to do. If we do it to call attention to ourselves, then we are the same as the special interest group that is driving the article.well most of us pick up anyway...and we do have a speacial interest dont we..ya know why the libs get so much attention?? they use the media..we must not be the silent majority anymore.. :hello:
Post by: runamuk on July 21, 2009, 10:49:29 AM
If in the process it brings good press to the hunting community then that is icing ......
and the idea of creating a group and actually planning volunteer cleanup days is something I have done in the past in other places.....so it interests me and it can be fun.
I used to round up my neighborhood kids and we would clean up all the trash from the coasties .... it caught on and other parents started doing it in their areas and low and behold our entire community looked better with less trash.....and it was fun...
Post by: bobcat on July 21, 2009, 10:26:40 PM
Quote
Get Capitol Forest shooting under control
THE OLYMPIAN | • Published July 21, 2009
Comments (31) Recommend (2)Officials at the Department of Natural Resources have a choice to make. They either have to enforce shooting regulations in Capitol State Forest or ban target shooting.
The situation today, with target shooters dispersed throughout the forest and not following basic safety guidelines, simply is not working. It endangers the lives of residents and other recreation users.
With more private forest land owners installing gates to keep people out, there are few places left for gun owners to sight-in their rifle or practice their shotgun skills by shooting clay pigeons. Many shooters reject the idea of joining a sportsman’s club and paying dues to target shoot.
But the Capitol State Forest of today is a far different place than it was 50 years ago. Today the forest draws an estimated 100,000 visitors a year and those visitors — people on horseback, mountain bikers, four-wheel enthusiasts, hunters, hikers, campers and motorcyclists — say that regularly they have to dodge bullets from target shooters.
Like any other activity, a few people abusing the rules can ruin things for everyone else.
There are shooters who follow the rules. They shoot at manufactured targets making sure that earthen backstops will contain their bullets. They know not to go closer than 500 feet from a campground, structure or residence and don’t shoot on, down, next to or across roads and trails. The responsible shooters pick up their shell casings, ammunition and other debris. Many leave the area cleaner than what they found.
Then there are the irresponsible shooters. They pull off a road, throw an old television set or living room coach into a clearing and start cranking off rounds. They could care less about the safety of others and leave a terrible mess behind.
Their reckless and destructive discharge of firearms threatens the legitimate use by others.
We’re not talking about hunters, here, although like any other sport there are those who follow the rules by focusing on safety and those who don’t.
Firearm enthusiasts are just two of the user groups that take advantage of the publicly owned forest. The question for Department of Natural Resource officials is how to accommodate forest users engaged in a variety of recreational activities and keep everyone safe.
“Sometimes you hear gunshots from 50 feet away,” said John Kramer, a Capitol Forest mountain biker and member of the volunteer group Friends of Capitol Forest. He said multiple riders have been pinned down by fire from rifles and handguns.
“I don’t have an issue with hunting,” said Capitol State Forest neighbor Marshall Oatman. “But it’s like a free-for-all up here with the random shooting. Nothing short of an outright ban is going to work. What are we waiting for? A stray bullet to hit a biker?”
That’s a frightening thought, but well within the realm of possibilities given the situation in the forest today.
It’s not that much different than the debate over fireworks, which sparked anew with loud Fourth of July celebrations. It’s illegal to buy firecrackers, bottle rockets and other explosives from tribal stands and transport them off the reservation. It’s also illegal to ignite fireworks within the city limits of Lacey.
But violations are the rule, not the exception. Law enforcement officers have all but thrown their hands in the air and given up. As a result, the Fourth of July sounds like a war zone with illegal fireworks exploding everywhere.
It’s similar to what’s happening with people discharging firearms in Capitol State Forest. Violations are everywhere and law enforcement officers who already are spread far too thin are not likely to spend a couple of hours driving the roads or searching the 180 miles of trails in the forest to track down lawbreakers.
What’s the solution to the vandalism and reckless shooting that continue unabated?
“This is a big emerging issue statewide; it’s high on our radar screen,” DNR spokeswoman Jane Chavey said. “With increased public-access closures on private forestlands, we’ve become the last spot in the lowlands.”
There’s not a lot of options. Either step up enforcement and hold the lawbreakers accountable, or ban shooting — not legitimate hunting — in the forest boundaries.
http://www.theolympian.com/opinion/story/916384.html
Post by: billythekidrock on July 22, 2009, 06:16:43 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on July 22, 2009, 06:30:23 AM
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090718/NEWS01/707189908
Post by: Dean44 on July 22, 2009, 06:34:38 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on July 22, 2009, 06:54:56 AM
Anyone willing to go along, please feel free to join me.
Sunday morning I will be entering the woods at 8am on the Rock Candy Entrance side of the Capitol Forest. I am bringing my kids and myself. We are going to go target shooting in a safe manner, in a safe place. We are going to pick up our mess, and pick up the other mess that we will inevitably find there. We will then grab some huckleberries on the way out.
If you are interested in saving these woods for all of our own future use, please join us this weekend. If you live near another entrance to the forest, please join us in the hills and do your part. Lets all see what we can accomplish and start a tradition of picking up after those who don't. ( I understand most of us already do this.)
I intend to email the Olympian, DNR, etc... If you have additional contacts you think would be worthwhile, please share.
Let's all take a bunch of quality photos of the effort. People from all walks, enjoying the shooting sports, then cleaning up everyones mess. Good photos of the amount of trash you personally picked up. Lets post them here after our effort.
I believe it is time to let the general public know that many lawful shooting enthusiasts do care about the outdoors. I believe it is time to make it public. I fully intend to make this an annual event.
Please join me this weekend.
Post by: bearhunter59 on July 22, 2009, 01:53:58 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on July 22, 2009, 07:06:57 PM
Good idea, Ice. My only suggestion would be to try and contact the Capitol Forest Manager and see if they might be willing to supply a dump trailer, or bring one and park it at the Rock Candy parking lot there, and everyone could just bring the trash they collect there. Plus, they might be able to offer suggestions on the areas they feel need the most attention. Just a thought...
That is a good idea, but I am afraid that DNR will probably direct you to FOC who are the ones with the agenda. >:(
Post by: wolfbait on July 22, 2009, 07:29:36 PM
Post by: FrankDown on July 23, 2009, 02:05:44 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on July 23, 2009, 06:26:00 PM