Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Other Big Game => Topic started by: bugle-em on August 09, 2009, 11:39:28 AM

Title: Washington Goats
Post by: bugle-em on August 09, 2009, 11:39:28 AM: Looking through my new Eastmans, how come Washington has one of the larger populations of Mt. Goats and so few tags? just wondered.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: Houndhunter on August 09, 2009, 11:46:57 AM: liberals :bash:
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: norsepeak on August 09, 2009, 08:48:06 PM: yeah, I was reading that mag too, and the thing that really tics me off is the head bio that did the study here in wa told me that he estimates the pop at 3800 animals, but then he tells eastman's only 2100 to more closely justify the low number of tags even though other states have lower overall pops, but high tags....makes no sense to me
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: elkrack on August 10, 2009, 01:56:24 AM: I can't stand liberals they tell you what you should and shouldn't be doing but when you even mention anything about them they get all fired up about their rights. SCREW THEM.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: HUNT on August 10, 2009, 05:58:34 AM: I just read that myself a couple days ago. 16 total tags. Plus a nonresident can put in for the same cost as a resident. They don't even have to buy a license first like they do for elk and deer? You would think Washington could easily support twice as many goat tags and still have a growing population. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: bobcat on August 10, 2009, 06:31:12 AM: It does cost a little more for a non-resident to apply for special permit hunts here. Five dollars for us, Fifty dollars for them. But still, it's cheaper than it should be for non-residents.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: Curly on August 10, 2009, 11:25:04 AM: They want to leave as many goats as possilbe for Cougar food................that way the cougars can stay up high and not have to come down lower to compete with the wolves for deer and elk.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: boneaddict on August 10, 2009, 11:51:02 AM: There are some areas that seem to be void of goats that sure could sustain them I'd think if the predators were under control. Too bad the predators get all of the attention. Its always been that way. Save the raptor(screw the pheasants), save the wolf(screw the deer and elk or moose). People don't see cats so they assume there aren't many of them(screw the goats and deer and elk). Save a sealion (screw the salmon)
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: Ray on August 10, 2009, 11:53:44 AM: I said it before and it looks like someone else is saying it too. I do believe that someone is deflating goat numbers in the state in order to reduce hunting opportunities. I have no evidence which is scientifically valid or other leads to support it. I only have my own eyes. I just see a lot of goats and their numbers in some areas are probably large enough to sustain a hunt. I have been encountering goats in so many areas during the past few years which I previously thought would not have held goats. I'm just a keyboard jockey though.

I agree that cats are probably one of the biggest problems on the goats. Not encroachment of humans or their civilization. Goats seem to be rarely concerned with human interaction on trails and such. In fact I believe they usually benefit from it.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: boneaddict on August 10, 2009, 12:17:20 PM: Quote
I agree that cats are probably one of the biggest problems on the goats. Not encroachment of humans or their civilization. Goats seem to be rarely concerned with human interaction on trails and such. In fact I believe they usually benefit from it.

Golden eagles and cats. When they took hounds out of the picture..downhill from there.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: Wea300mag on August 10, 2009, 06:17:27 PM: Those numbers are real eye-opening. This state is way out of proportion, haha, but we knew that.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: popeshawnpaul on August 10, 2009, 11:37:59 PM: They have always underestimated the population. What has changed is the biologists all read a few studies by a couple biologists and changed their management strategy. Wouldn't you look to a state that successfully funs a good goat population for a good test study instead of a book or study? We use to give out tons of tags here and there was no shortage of goats. I'm sure skyval or the other hikers that cruised our mountains in the 80's and 90's can attest to that. If the biologists are liberals, then you are right. They are the culprit.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: bearpaw on August 11, 2009, 12:03:29 AM: Quote
It does cost a little more for a non-resident to apply for special permit hunts here. Five dollars for us, Fifty dollars for them. But still, it's cheaper than it should be for non-residents.

In Washington non-res hunters pay 10x as much as res hunters, this system is used in most states. Look at the high price the Non-res pays for a tag after he draws here.....

In WA only 2% of revenue is from non-res hunters, far more WA hunters go out of state than other hunters coming here. :twocents:

Anyway my point is that your philosophy is why you will have to mortgage the house to go hunting out of state, residents in every state want non-res to pay more, so you will if you ever go to ID, MT, WY, AL, etc.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: buckhorn2 on August 11, 2009, 09:29:04 AM: Said on TV they realeased 18 goats someplace but I did;nt hear where.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: bobcat on August 11, 2009, 09:07:14 PM: The word is out that Washington is a cheap state for a non-resident to apply for moose, mountain goat, and bighorn sheep tags. They only pay approximately $50 per application. No requirement to buy a license or anything else first. So people from all across the country are putting in for our once-in-a-lifetime tags and decreasing our odds of drawing. That's why I say they should have to pay more. Either that or limit non-residents to only 5% of the tags like Oregon does.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: BENCHLEG on August 11, 2009, 10:25:08 PM: DITTO. look and see what oregon has done to all non-residents.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: BillyG on August 12, 2009, 06:23:06 AM: I talked with Mike Davison the State Biologist for the Mt.Baker area Mountain Goat population last night and he said they just finished a study and counted over 500 Goats in the Baker area. He made it sound like there will be more opprotunities in the near future. I have a meeting planned with Mike next week to talk more about Mountain Goat.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: HUNT on August 12, 2009, 09:44:15 AM: I would like to see out of state applicants for the goat, moose and sheep tags pay for their tag up front when they apply like Idaho. If they are not successful in the draw, it is refunded back to them.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: rosscrazyelk on August 12, 2009, 07:06:22 PM: nothing this state does makes sense.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: sagerat on August 14, 2009, 09:16:48 PM: And now we even have to pay more for it with the "surcharge" :bash: :bash: :bash:
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: Bighorse on August 22, 2009, 04:56:42 PM: All I gotta say is here on Baranof Island in SE AK. The Bio did a Heli survey a few weeks ago. He counted over 400 goats in a fairly broad survey area but not complete.

At this point we still have an over-the-counter registration hunt and he'll stop the hunt at aprox 75 points. 1point for billies 3 for nannies.

The population here has done great under this system and maintains high numbers of both harvest and live animals. We've got predators too.......Coastal Brown Bears.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: shanevg on August 23, 2009, 09:02:37 AM: Quote from: Bighorse on August 22, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
All I gotta say is here on Baranof Island in SE AK. The Bio did a Heli survey a few weeks ago. He counted over 400 goats in a fairly broad survey area but not complete.

At this point we still have an over-the-counter registration hunt and he'll stop the hunt at aprox 75 points. 1point for billies 3 for nannies.

The population here has done great under this system and maintains high numbers of both harvest and live animals. We've got predators too.......Coastal Brown Bears.

The problem with doing something like that here in WA is that we have too many hunters to that would storm to one herd if there were OTC tags and it would be a shooting gallery in the more easily accessible spots. It would be nice if WDFW would learn from Alaska's goat management as far as the 75 points goes though - that would sure be a lot more permits than we get now!
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: Bighorse on August 23, 2009, 11:19:20 AM: Ya, thats what I was thinking. Certainly from a bioligical prospective you've got the populations to establish a more liberal hunting season. You could even stagger hunters into a particular unit and set dates.

I also have found goats in areas that don't have an open hunt in WA.

Here our season runs from August through December. So hunters are scattered like leaves in the wind and I've never had another hunter encroaching upon any hunt area I've been in.

It works here where the town population is less than 8k and the total number of alpine hunters is drastically less. I guess thats why I left WA.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: shanevg on August 23, 2009, 09:15:10 PM: Quote from: Bighorse on August 23, 2009, 11:19:20 AM
Ya, thats what I was thinking. Certainly from a bioligical prospective you've got the populations to establish a more liberal hunting season. You could even stagger hunters into a particular unit and set dates.

I also have found goats in areas that don't have an open hunt in WA.

Here our season runs from August through December. So hunters are scattered like leaves in the wind and I've never had another hunter encroaching upon any hunt area I've been in.

It works here where the town population is less than 8k and the total number of alpine hunters is drastically less. I guess thats why I left WA.

Yeah, you have it pretty awesome, I have to admit I envy you.

There are definitely many places in WA with goats and no season, the former Methow unit being one of the more obvious of them. Okanogan County is #2 B&C producing county of all time and there is no goat tag there. The Enchantments being another area that comes to mind. Unluckily, WDFW has decided we need a population of at least 100 goats to allow a harvest of 1 goat. We can look at management plans in other states and provinces (CO, UT, ID, NV, AK, WY, MT just to name a few) to see that you don't need 100 goats to maintain a stable herd size, but WDFW thinks they are smarter then all the other states on this matter so what do we do?
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:04:17 AM: I wish they would make the Pasayten an unlimited mt goat unit with a quota of 2-3 goats and run the hunt the same way that montana does its unlimited sheep units :twocents:
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: shanevg on August 24, 2009, 10:19:17 AM: Quote from: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:04:17 AM
I wish they would make the Pasayten an unlimited mt goat unit with a quota of 2-3 goats and run the hunt the same way that montana does its unlimited sheep units :twocents:

Now that would be pretty awesome! Have you ever emailed/called/wrote WDFW with that idea? Who knows, maybe they would be open to it! I know that I personally would be goat hunting every single year if that were the case! :)

I like that idea, maybe we need to make an organized push for such an idea!
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:22:52 AM: Im full of good ideas... but im not the best messenger :chuckle:

I think that would be an awesome hunt... there are defiantly goats there are they are not being hunted and there would be almost no user conflicts with hikers etc.

I wonder if they would be open to that kind of hunt. :dunno:

Id prolly be in on the hunt as well... might have to redraw the boundaries of the goat hunt so that there was a 3-5 mile buffer from some of the roads :dunno:

Oh and this would be a hunt for residents only.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: shanevg on August 24, 2009, 10:34:58 AM: Quote from: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:22:52 AM
Im full of good ideas... but im not the best messenger :chuckle:

I think that would be an awesome hunt... there are defiantly goats there are they are not being hunted and there would be almost no user conflicts with hikers etc.

I wonder if they would be open to that kind of hunt. :dunno:

Id prolly be in on the hunt as well... might have to redraw the boundaries of the goat hunt so that there was a 3-5 mile buffer from some of the roads :dunno:

Oh and this would be a hunt for residents only.

I like all your ideas regarding this hunt! I think I may try to get ahold of some biologists in the coming weeks and see what WDFW thinks of a hunt like this.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:37:29 AM: Make it a mature billy hunt 6in horns or better and use the tag proceeds to fund further goat counts in areas that don't have tags or not enough tags.

This way we can expand the opportunity state wide for goat hunting.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: shanevg on August 24, 2009, 10:42:06 AM: Quote from: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:37:29 AM
Make it a mature billy hunt 6in horns or better and use the tag proceeds to fund further goat counts in areas that don't have tags or not enough tags.

This way we can expand the opportunity state wide for goat hunting.

I don't know about the mature billy idea. Unluckily, when you have too many restrictions regarding size of animal, it just gives too much room for people to get in trouble. A lot of people have trouble determining the difference between a billy and a nanny and I would rather see people taking their nanny out than accidentally shooting one and leaving it in the woods. I think a better option would be a point system like AK does, a 4 or 5 point quota where billies are worth 1 point and nannies are worth 3. Then when the point quota is filled, the hunt closes. If by chance, 2 nannies are killed in one day, or the point quota is exceeded due to a nanny harvest when only 1 or 2 points remains in the quota, then you lower the quota in subsequent years to make up for it.
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: WDFW-SUX on August 24, 2009, 10:45:53 AM: I guess your right. I forget most people really struggle with the sexing of goats. Im just really apposed to killing nannies unless the population is really healthy :dunno:
Title: Re: Washington Goats
Post by: andrew_12gauge on August 24, 2009, 12:00:09 PM: im pretty sure there is another reason there are no goat tags in the enchantments and it has nothing to do with less than 100 goats