Post by: grousetracker on September 18, 2009, 04:16:13 PM
Post by: halflife65 on September 18, 2009, 04:23:59 PM
Also, it can go along way if you just hit one lung and don't get both of them...
Post by: mossback91 on September 18, 2009, 04:29:11 PM
did you run out of tracks to follow too?
Post by: PolarBear on September 18, 2009, 04:34:50 PM
Post by: adam.WI on September 18, 2009, 04:35:12 PM
Post by: Crunchy on September 18, 2009, 04:54:53 PM
Post by: halflife65 on September 18, 2009, 04:58:03 PM
Was the shot perfectly broadside? Was it a passthrough shot or was the arrow still in it (or do you know)?
Post by: colockumelk on September 18, 2009, 05:15:27 PM
Post by: AKBowman on September 18, 2009, 05:42:21 PM
the lungs have multiple lobes in them and any animal doesn't need all of them to survive, if the wound closes up and air doesn't get in then it will never collapse the lungs.
Not unless the elk has a surgeon nearby. If there were pink bubbles in the blood than it was a lung hit. If it was a lung hit than the animal is dead or going to die relatively quickly which is not to say that if pushed it wont be able to go miles. Most likely if you dont push an animal that is lung hit they will go downhill and lay down as soon as they can. If they dont get jumped out of their bed there lungs WILL fill with blood and they will die in their bed.
In the future I would recommend waiting an hour (maybe you did) than flagging the blood trail so you can see direction of travel. If the animal is traveling up hill for a substantial amount of time than he may not be mortally wounded (or recoverable) if he keeps heading downhill take your time, flag the trail and give him time to die. The animal you mentioned with the pink blood is definitely lung hit and surely dead now.
You should go back and attempt to recover it. It sucks but it happens, best of luck.
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on September 18, 2009, 06:46:36 PM
Post by: NWBREW on September 18, 2009, 07:06:03 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on September 18, 2009, 08:53:11 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 18, 2009, 09:35:49 PM
I have seen many deer with collapsed lungs from bad shots live til the next hunting season. Good chance it is dead but not 100%.
huh?
Post by: grousetracker on September 18, 2009, 09:45:55 PM
Post by: wastickslinger on September 18, 2009, 09:54:28 PM
Post by: WonkyWapiti on September 18, 2009, 10:39:17 PM
I know I'll also start a crap storm with this comment but 54 and 60 yards is quite a distance for chucking arrows at an elk UNLESS your buddy really practices and conditions are right. Alot of my range practice this past year was as the 50 and 60 yard mark but conditions would have to be pretty darn good for me to still be confident enough to take a shot at that range even tho I know I am nuts on at those distances. Alot can happen in that distance.
The other thing is don't let the cow tracks throw you off, I've seen many a bull take off say to hell with the herd and take of in a totally different direction than the cows. Especially if this guys hit and you arent seeing his tracks with the cows, you may have passed him up.
Post by: usmc74 on September 19, 2009, 10:27:02 AM
Waited 1/2 hour, followed the tracks. Almost no blood. Heard labored breathing from trees ahead, so wait until it stopped and 5 minutes more. Walked into trees and the bull blew out of there. Was about a softball sized mound of foam blood. No blood found the way he ran out.
Had to eventually get on all fours, and found small specks of blood. Followed this way for about 1/2 mile. Eventually found more quantity blood sign. Found the bull 7 hours after I shot him. 7X6 bull.
Post by: PolarBear on September 19, 2009, 10:54:20 AM
the shots were broadside at 60yds and 54yds.No wonder
Post by: grousetracker on September 19, 2009, 04:44:41 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on September 19, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Aside from hitting a plate at 60 yards (yippee), how much force would the arrow deliver at that range?
Post by: jackelope on September 19, 2009, 08:07:07 PM
Quote
any person who thinks they wouldnt shoot 60 after practicing that shot is not being rational.
thats b.s. ... 60 yards is a long ways and a lot can happen in the time it takes an arrow to get that far.
Post by: Buckmark on September 19, 2009, 08:30:06 PM
NO animal is worth wounding.
I had a really nice and i mean really nice whitetail buck year before last at 78yds opening day, i can make that distance on paper, but to be 100% sure on the animal no, let him walk, talked to a guy that said "see that buck, wow" and i said yeah had him at 78, he said what no 80yd pin, i said i'll take up rifle again at that range thanks..
Post by: PolarBear on September 19, 2009, 09:37:51 PM
ive seen him shoot paperplates at 60yds with no problem. any person who thinks they wouldnt shoot 60 after practicing that shot is not being rational.I practice out to over 100 yards with my bow. Hitting a paper plate at 60 yards and calling it good enough to shoot at an elk at 60 yds is just ridiculous! I practice year round and can put 5 broadheads in a 2" target dot at 60 yards and still would not take that shot at an elk. A paper plate is 9-10", that leaves a lot of room for error out at 60 yds. Plus the fact that the kinetic energy at that range is iffy at best on an animal as big and tough as an elk. Sorry to be a dick but what your buddy did was irresponsible at best. The fact that it went 800+ yards and you still didn't find it is proof that it was a bad shot to make and that you probably pushed it. Sorry again, but I get so f-in fed up hearing year after year about folks losing animals because of bad and out of range shots. Damn it people, take your time and only shoot if it is a good, safe shot! I value my hunting and the animal I hunt far too much to take some low percentage pot shot at them.
Post by: adam.WI on September 19, 2009, 11:05:35 PM
That critter is dead 100% positive.Go tell that to the surgeons that treat my friends and I over seas, unless you hit puncture enough of a whole for the animal to fill it's lungs with blood, it may not die. All that has to happen is a flap of skin covers the whole and then there is no sucking chest wound. With out air coming in from the outside it will not necessarily collapse the lungs. So no it is not 100% dead.
the lungs have multiple lobes in them and any animal doesn't need all of them to survive, if the wound closes up and air doesn't get in then it will never collapse the lungs.
Not unless the elk has a surgeon nearby. If there were pink bubbles in the blood than it was a lung hit. If it was a lung hit than the animal is dead or going to die relatively quickly which is not to say that if pushed it wont be able to go miles. Most likely if you dont push an animal that is lung hit they will go downhill and lay down as soon as they can. If they dont get jumped out of their bed there lungs WILL fill with blood and they will die in their bed.
In the future I would recommend waiting an hour (maybe you did) than flagging the blood trail so you can see direction of travel. If the animal is traveling up hill for a substantial amount of time than he may not be mortally wounded (or recoverable) if he keeps heading downhill take your time, flag the trail and give him time to die. The animal you mentioned with the pink blood is definitely lung hit and surely dead now.
You should go back and attempt to recover it. It sucks but it happens, best of luck.
It probably is dead and I would agree waiting is beneficial, and I would never move on an animal with out waiting at least 30-45 mins, but again, not 100% dead.
Post by: NW-GSP on September 19, 2009, 11:52:17 PM
Post by: jrebel on September 20, 2009, 12:50:44 AM
Second: What type of broadhead? and cutting diameter? Rough math??? It takes a whole 2/3rd the diameter of the trachea for adequate air to enter the wound and cause an imbalance in pressure wich then would cause a catastrophic pneumothorax (collapsed lung/sucking chest wound). Otherwise it will take time for the lung to stop working and fill with blood, thus causing death by inadequate oxygen to the organs. Lungs do not spontaneously heal themselves and if the outside wound is clotted or sealed by "FAT" "SKIN" or whatever people have suggested then the thoracic cavity would then fill with blood/air causing a tension hemo/pneumo that would also lead to a rapid death.
Moral of the story, if you hit lung the animal will die. Unfortunately lung shots don't always bleed a lot. I double lunged a cow with a broadside through and through shot two years ago. Sat and ate an early lunch. Two hours later tracked her and only found 3-4 drops of blood with the biggest being appox 2" diameter. She died 50 yards from point of impact. Go out and give it a good hard day of looking and you can probably find that elk. Good Luck.
Post by: beav1980 on September 21, 2009, 10:53:19 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2009, 11:30:46 AM
Quote
I have been in alot of discissions on this topic and i feel yardage to shoot varies with each hunter
targets don't move or spook or take a step or anything. they just sit there...it takes a long time for an arrow to travel 70 yards. an animal can completely screw your shot in the time it takes for that arrow to travel that distance. how much a guy practices at those yards has nothing...zero, zilch, nada...to do with how an elk or deer or bear or grouse or anything is going to move the slightest bit in that time....remember that.
Post by: EastWaViking on September 21, 2009, 11:33:21 AM
targets don't move or spook or take a step or anything. they just sit there...it takes a long time for an arrow to travel 70 yards. an animal can completely screw your shot in the time it takes for that arrow to travel that distance. how much a guy practices at those yards has nothing...zero, zilch, nada...to do with how an elk or deer or bear or grouse or anything is going to move the slightest bit in that time....remember that.
:yeah:
Post by: Buckmark on September 21, 2009, 11:35:34 AM
:yeah: X2targets don't move or spook or take a step or anything. they just sit there...it takes a long time for an arrow to travel 70 yards. an animal can completely screw your shot in the time it takes for that arrow to travel that distance. how much a guy practices at those yards has nothing...zero, zilch, nada...to do with how an elk or deer or bear or grouse or anything is going to move the slightest bit in that time....remember that.
:yeah:
Post by: halflife65 on September 21, 2009, 11:58:50 AM
So if a guy shoots an elk from 30 yds and hits it but cant find it that justifies it?? Some people that shoot alot can shoot better @ 60 yds than most can @ 30. At 50-60 yds an arrow has plenty of velocity for a comple pass through. I have shot deer with a rifle @ 100 yrds that were never recovered. It hunting it happens no matter what the weapon is. I know guys that shoot over 150 yds with muzzle loaders. It is not ur job to tell people how far they can shoot just like it is not their job to tell u how. To parent ur kids. I killed one at 63 yds last year double lunged it and it traveled 70 yds and piled up. Oh and by the way that shot was a complete pass through so i believe that could answer the question. I have been in alot of discissions on this topic and i feel yardage to shoot varies with each hunter.
Nobody is trying to "justify" anything - especially a shorter shot. That doesn't make any sense...People are expressing an opinion on what would constitute an ethical distance to shoot. If you think you can shoot 60 yards, go for it, I guess. I wouldn't do that myself, though.
People are talking about percentages of a successful shot. You've stated that you are able to shoot successfully at 63 yards, but the chance of something bad happening (you pull the shot which has a large effect at that range, the animal moves, etc.) is a lot greater than a shot at 23 yards. It's all about your tolerance for a risky shot. I have a high tolerance for longer/more difficult shots at 3d targets but a very low tolerance for risk with an animal...it has to do with the consequences of missing the shot (I break or lose an arrow at a 3d target or I wound an animal - obvious difference). I also have a high respect for the animals that I hunt (in NO WAY, am I implying that you don't - just making the point about how I think of the subject) and really don't want to wound and/or lose one.
Post by: jrebel on September 21, 2009, 01:28:40 PM
The arguement that has been made comparing practice targets at long range live targets at long range is faulty. Practice targets don't move at short or long ranges 10, 20,. . . . 70, 80. If an animal is alerted to you at 10 yards it could still jump your string. You should not shoot at an animal that is ready to flea at any distance IMO.
Post by: bucklucky on September 21, 2009, 01:47:33 PM
My max on an elk is 50 but I took a shot I thought my wife ranged at 51 but it was 54, I miss heard her. I wouldnt go much over 50 though. Thats a long shot for an elk . That being said , mine was a perfect heart shot so He went 30-40 yards and died and was not in a fleeing state. He was looking for the cow I was pretending to be ;)
Post by: Big10gauge on September 21, 2009, 01:53:00 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2009, 02:03:59 PM
Quote
He started to run but I called to him and he stopped long enough for me to shoot... I released while he was nearly broadside (now at nearly 70 yards ) as I released he spun and stepped and I basically hit him perfectly in the back center of his ham
Post by: NW-GSP on September 21, 2009, 02:17:32 PM
Post by: coachcw on September 21, 2009, 03:38:04 PM
Post by: beav1980 on September 21, 2009, 07:52:15 PM
Post by: ecnclan on September 21, 2009, 08:14:09 PM
Quote
Lets face it not all animals are recovered no matter what the weapon is i have not recovered animals that i have hit with a rifle. It is hunting as long as we repect each other the creatures we hunt and the land is what means the most:yeah:
Post by: SHANE(WA) on September 22, 2009, 02:12:27 AM
Post by: Elkpiss on September 22, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on September 22, 2009, 09:22:16 AM
:yeah::yeah: X2targets don't move or spook or take a step or anything. they just sit there...it takes a long time for an arrow to travel 70 yards. an animal can completely screw your shot in the time it takes for that arrow to travel that distance. how much a guy practices at those yards has nothing...zero, zilch, nada...to do with how an elk or deer or bear or grouse or anything is going to move the slightest bit in that time....remember that.
:yeah:
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2009, 09:39:38 AM
best of luck. retrace your steps and see if you can't find where he peeled off from the herd. Only advice that I can give.
Post by: bucklucky on September 22, 2009, 09:51:47 AM
Just a little tidbit of info. I shot a blacktail with my bow about 8 years ago, perfectly broadside but a little high. I ended up giving him an hour to track. There was blood everywhere and on both sides. Anyway I got him up and watched him walk accrossed the cut about 150 yards. I left him till the next morning where I got him up again :yike: I thought he would not get up after a night like that but he did. I ended up getting him about an hour latter. I had got 1 lung and high. I couldnt believe they could live through the night and let alone get up the next day. I know elk are toughter than that.
Post by: beav1980 on September 22, 2009, 10:21:14 AM
Post by: Decker on December 10, 2010, 11:41:00 PM
And while you're all throwing around the word ETHICAL (to a guy who's just looking for advice on how to help find his BUDDY'S elk, he wasn't the shooter mind you) how many of you have actually given grouse a "sporting" chance and let them fly before shooting?
When a mob, wanting to stone a woman for adultery, kept demanding an answer from Jesus he told them "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!" Imagine if they had only been wanting to stone the prostitutes friend just for being friends with her. ...Just sayin'.
Post by: krout81 on December 11, 2010, 12:33:34 AM
Post by: Deep Forks on December 11, 2010, 04:23:33 AM
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on December 11, 2010, 09:07:19 PM
Post by: Decker on December 11, 2010, 10:46:58 PM
No we never found the elk. I was the one that shot it.
So YOU'RE the one they have all been stringing the gallows up for!? :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: madmack76 on December 11, 2010, 11:20:45 PM
Post by: grousetracker on December 12, 2010, 08:55:52 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 12, 2010, 09:31:23 AM
Post by: throttlejocky20 on December 12, 2010, 09:06:50 PM
I took a long shot on my cow this year 64yards. She was slightly quartering away my shot was very low, at first watching the arrow flight and the reaction of the cow we were almost sure of a miss. We could not find my arrow or any blood at the point of impact or the first 30 yards. But following the tracks we found blood then the pink bubbly stuff. I only got one lung and she went along way. and at one point we lost blood and spent almost 1 hour doing circles from the last spot before picking it up again. another 80 yards and there she was.
Post by: boneaddict on December 13, 2010, 05:09:32 AM
Post by: PolarBear on December 13, 2010, 01:00:44 PM
Glad yo ufound her. Good tracking!:yeah:
You did it right! Most guys go up to the point of impact and if they don't see a pile of blood they decide that it was a miss and move on to the next victim.
Post by: krout81 on December 13, 2010, 08:39:37 PM
Post by: PolarBear on December 14, 2010, 02:07:07 AM
Post by: bankwalker on December 15, 2010, 01:29:00 PM
Quoteany person who thinks they wouldnt shoot 60 after practicing that shot is not being rational.
thats b.s. ... 60 yards is a long ways and a lot can happen in the time it takes an arrow to get that far.
exactly. i would never shoot past 40yds. i practice out to 80yards.
just because you can shoot a good group at that distance does not mean you should shoot at that distance. there is far to many things that can go wrong. for one thing....shooting at a target and a live animal are to completely different things.
Post by: sportsman002001 on December 16, 2010, 07:09:52 AM
So about 2 hours later we went back in with flashlights and started tracking with very little blood and just looking around and found the bull bedded down. He had only gone about 80-200 yards and had bedded down. Keep in mind it was dark out and the bull was still alive and there was about 6 of us looking and I could not get a shot into that bull and then he stood up and bolted.
Now the toughest decision I had to make go home and try to sleep or continue to track and take the chance to push him even more. Very tuff decision but it was to go home and come back the very next morning and look when we have daylight. Needless to say very little sleep that night as I could not stop thinking about that bull being out there and possibly dead.
We got back up there the next morning and started right from where we had jumped him and followed in the direction that we heard him go. There was no blood trail to follow about 45 min of looking we had found the bull bedded down about 150 yards from where we busted him the night before and he was still alive. You could walk up on him as he could only pick his head up and you could tell his was just sick. So we got another arrow into him and let him expire. When we gutted the elk my first shot just nicked the liver.
Ever since that elk I am all about waiting a good couple hours before I start tracking. And patience pays off but let me tell you it sucks waiting. Especially if you have to try to sleep over night.
Post by: fly4fish on December 16, 2010, 11:26:49 AM
So about 2 hours later we went back in with flashlights and started tracking with very little blood and just looking around and found the bull bedded down. He had only gone about 80-200 yards and had bedded down. Keep in mind it was dark out and the bull was still alive and there was about 6 of us looking and I could not get a shot into that bull and then he stood up and bolted.
........
Ever since that elk I am all about waiting a good couple hours before I start tracking. And patience pays off but let me tell you it sucks waiting. Especially if you have to try to sleep over night.
So, sportsman, is a good couple hours longer than 2 hours, which is how long you waited at first? jk. It seems that you can hardly wait to long on an animal that was not hit ideally. Unless you see or hear the animal go down, if the shot looked bad and you have time, give them overnight. Even putting another arrow in him can be a bad idea if you think he is not going to go any further as sometimes, if they have enough life left in em, that can put the fear in them, and then how far can an animal run in 5 minutes?