Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Waterfowl => Topic started by: Choclab on April 28, 2007, 09:06:44 PM
-
Just seeing what loads you use to kill ducks and geese with. I shoot Hevisteel 3" #4's at ducks and Hevisteel B at Geese. Snockers em' dead. I love the stuff
-
I haven't used any of the heavy stuff yet. I was shooting tungsten IRON 3 1/2" at geese and the occasional duck, and then just steel 3.5" at ducks. I think they were #2 shot. I'd have to go look. Those tungsten Irons pack a wallop by the end of the day.
-
I was toying with the idea of getting back into shotgun reloading...Ballistic Products out of Minnesota has all the materials and written information on loading bismuth. Just looking right now but worth thinking about if you do a lot of water fowl and upland hunting where non-toxic is required.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/
-
I used to reload my shotshells, but quit after the non-toxic revolution. I was intimidated by all the buffers and so forth. I had trouble enough getting the performance I was used to getting even out of factory loads. I imagine they have most of the kinks worked out now. NOW I'm just waiting for them to screw with modern rifle loads with the whole lead and copper thing. That will really upset me. I bet more condors die from lead poisioning the direct way, than from eating carcasses with lead bullets still in them.
-
I shoot Kent Fast Steel 3", 1 1/8oz. (for the speed @ 1560fps), 2-shot for ducks.
I shoot Kent Fast Steel 3", 1 1/8oz. (ditto), BB and BBB for geese.
Occasionally, (depending on the day's type of shooting, i.e.-in the dekes or not), I'll shoot 4-shot, (same load) for ducks. ;)
-
Choclab,
I tried a couple of boxes of 3" Hevi-Steel 6 to begin the season last year on ducks and really liked it. I also shot Hevi-Steel 2 and I have some leftover B from the previous season.
For geese, I got a deal on some Federal Tungsten Iron. When that is gone I will probably go back to the Hevi-Steel B. All of the Hevi Steel I have was bought in years past. I saw that prices on those loads really shot up last year :(.
I would be interested in splitting a case of Hevi Steel 6 if anyone wants to go in on it. I don't use enough duck loads to warrant buying a case.
I have also shot a lot of Kent Fasteel 1-3/8 oz. 3.5 inch 2 and BB over the years. I shoot an original model SBE.
-
when i shoot steel(not very often, not too much of a waterfowler) it's kent fasteel.
-
Estate 3" 1-1/4oz #4's or 6's. I started using 6's a couple of years ago and there's not a better load for ducks in tight on the decoys. I usually back a pair of 6's with a #4 for a little extra on the way out or that necessary water swat.
-
You using the #6's on Mallards? How close are you shooting? I have always used #4's with good luck. Somwtimes our shots get a little long. I try to get them to committ everytime, but it doesn't always happen. What do you use on Geese??
-
not sure if they just pattern well out of my gun or what, but those 6's kill them deader than any 2's I've ever seen.
Mostly shots inside of 30 yards. On the decoys feet down. They're not effective at all past about 40.
Geese I favor bb's or 2's in a 3-1/2"
-
I used to use mostly 5's and 4's back in the days of lead with a occasional 6, but not in any recent days. Funny that we have gone from 2 3/4 6's to todays 3 1/2 loads.
-
I laugh at the guys who feel the need to shoot 3-1/2" 2's or bb's at ducks over decoys. Think it's a coincidence that there tend to be more 3-1/2" empties than 2-3/4 or 3" combined? I would say they're shooting 2 to 3 times the number of shells since they think they can drop any bird from any distance....
-
I wouldn't laugh to hard. 3 1/2's shot out of an over-bored 12 gauge will pattern waaaay better than any standard 3" will. The large bore works exceptionally well because of the almost lack of forcing cone, and it gets to take advantage of 10ga bore and choke dimentions. Plus shooting 3 1/2" shells out of an over-bored gun will reduce felt recoil because of the lack of forcing cone. Thats compared to a gun that shoots 3 1/2's that isn't over-bored....of course. You are right about people who think they can shoot 60 yards with a 3 1/2. You do gain some distance though....but not 60 yards...lol. I will be shooting 3 1/2 #4's for ducks and 3 1/2 #2's and B for geese out of a Beretta X2 this season. The Beretta is over-bored.
-
i wouldn't laugh too hard either. gives everybody a better chance at killing the bird rather than just crippling it. more shot=more humane kills. i think the reason you see more empties is because more people shoot them.
but this is a long discussion that could last longer than the ford vs chevy vs dodge discussion.
i think most shotguns now except for the super-cheepo's are over-bored or back-bored. all brownings are too.
-
I'd bet there's more pellets in a 3" 4 or 6 than a 3-1/2" 2. Besides a lot of those 3-1/2's are only 1-3/8 oz, I don't think that 1/8 of an ounce is making a huge difference. If a 3-1/2 patterns better out of your gun then I applaud you for doing your homework, but I doubt the majority goes to the lengths of patterning, they just feel a 3-1/2 gives them a better chance of scraping birds that are at best marginally in range.
-
I agree that people need to pattern their shotguns better...or even at all. Too many hunters just grab the cheapest crap off the shelf and hope it works. I got lucky and have a gun that will pattern the cheaper Winchester loads well, but the Hevi stuff patterns fantastic. I also think that too many guys buy these after market chokes and hope for better results.....nothing wrong with factory chokes. I have a couple of O/U's I need to pattern still. I hope the cheap stuff patterns in them ok. People don't realize that one brand will pattern well out of their gun...but won't pattern well out of the same make and model from someone else's.
-
To the original question, I shoot #6 Hevi-shot when shooting my 3" 20ga (I've shot three out of a box of five), and I am required to shoot non-tox.
My 20 is now mostly reserved for a very few trips, on sunny days, where I am allowed to shoot lead.
In the 12 ga, I shoot Kent Industries 3" #3.
I shoot it at ducks, geese, turkeys, rabbits, grouse, and any other small game I am shooting at. (*The key is not to shoot until you know what you shoot at is close enough to be effective)
I own four shotgun reloading presses, one a progressive 12 ga rig.
I have reloaded non-tox loads extensively, both back and the beginning, and in recent times (trying to develop predator loads).
Modern "power piston" shot cups, what we all call the wad, have made reloading of non-tox loads a lot safer, as well as doing wonders at getting these loads to pattern.
In non-toxic loads, steel and hevi conglomerates in particular, because the shot is very hard, a very soft shot cup is required.
(*That's part of why extra choke waterfowl chokes have become more popular)
You can tell by how deeply a non-tox shot cup is "bruised", that because the amount of constriction in the barrel is equal to or less than the depth of the bruising, the choke can't be having much effect of dispersal.
(*Granted part of the bruising is caused by "take off", and part at the choke)
In patterning tests, my cylinder bored Mossberg 500 shoots, most loads, very close to The Winny 1200 with XX waterfowl choke.
The point is, most of the pattern displacement takes place after the payload leaves the barrel, and is way more effected by when and how the wad's petals behave.
Back in the olden days, when we used cardboard wads, which more often than not left exposed pellets sliding along the bare steel of the inside of your barrel, a choke had a way more marked effect on the dispersal pattern.
Modern power pistons have a larger effect on pattern than does choke.
To prove this try different loads in a shotgun with a fixed choke, changing nothing more than the wad.
Then if possible, change the choke by changing barrels, and go through the same wads.
You'll probably find you can get either barrel to pattern in the size range you want.
For instance I can get both barrels of my 20 ga O/U (one full, one mod) to pattern the same size, or I can get drastic change, just by changing the payload components.
I have found uniformity (or the lack of it) a bigger factor in patterning at the extreme end of range, with non-toxic shot, as compared to (much rounder) lead shot.
Does anyone remember "cubic shot", and the effect it had on pattern (and the ability to break clay pigeons)?
Or has anyone patterned reclaimed shot, against new?
All just food for thought...
Krusty (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.prodigy.net%2Frogerlori1%2Femoticons%2Fwave1.gif&hash=a79b2b094946ae3edb92c1d87183753de8213bad)
-
this topic answered my my question perfectly. and it appears krusty can wright an opinionative book. admirable. thanks guys.
by the way has anyone seen that federal premium black cloud steel. it looks pretty hightech-fancy.
-
It's a skybusters dream load.........
-
It's a skybusters dream load.........
i'm all over it.
:chuckle:
-
its that good huh?
-
that there is sarcasm.
skybusting is kind of frowned upon.
-
sry i dont know duck talk yet. gonna sit out on some ducks for the first time as soon as i tag my deer this year.
so skybusters meaning flinging shot everywhere maybe?
-
pert near...yep.
-
or shooting at ducks way out there and/or flying high.
-
hence i look to you guys for wisdom. from what ive read i should prolly pattern my shotgun with several different loads and find out what works best with my gun. any patterning tips?
-
make sure you got a good recoil pad.
:chuckle:
patterning should be pretty straight forward...make sure you bring lots of targets, cuz they're a 1-shot deal.
-
I do like the aftermarket chokes for dispersing the gas when the shot leaves the barrel. It helps keep the holes out of your pattern.
-
agreed...ported chokes or a ported barrel are nice things to have.
-
tungsten matrix for me. iv downed more geese on hail marys with those loads than anything else. they do the trick. oh i second the ported barrel deal, i have nightmares about "t's" that usuallly start in november.
-
Just use your factory chokes and save some money. I kill more birds than most and all I use are my factory chokes. When you pattern your gun, use a piece of cardboard with a 30" circle. Shoot the center 40 yards away with a Modified choke. Count the pellets and circle them. You should have an even distrobution of pellets through out the whole 30" circle. You shouldn't have more than a 70% pattern at that distance. Let me know how many pellets are in the circle.
-
I tend to buy what's on sale. Usually size 3 or 4! :o
-
3" #6 hevi shot for ducks , 3" #2 or bb's hevi shot for geese, 2 3/4" 7 1/2 for pheasants
-
My brothers and I took our shotguns out 2 years ago, 2 sp870s, 1 332 rem., 1 11-87sp, and 2 105 CTi's. We use imp.cyl, modified and full chokes. We shot Remington Nitro Steel in BB, Hevi-Shot 2's, and Hevisteel B's. One of the 870's had a Patternmaster and showed no real improvement at 20 40 or 60 yards over the factory mod. rem choke. What a disapointment that was ! Out of all of the rounds we used, the Nitro Mag bb's had the tightest most conformed patterns with NO holes at all 3 ranges in all 6 guns. The hevi shot was widely spaced but for the most part uniformed, and the hevisteel put up good if not better patterns than the hevi shot. My rem. 332 put out the nicest no hole patterns out of all the guns with an improved cyl in the bottom and mod. in the top. all the way to 60 yards. So with all this info, and watching what was left of the Hevisteel destroy geese in the 10 to 14 pound range out to 52 yards, we waited for the ammo to go on sale and I used my discount to by a case of it. I still have 8 boxes, and laughed when I saw how much the price has gone up since then. We opted for them over the nitros simply because we can hear regular steel BB's bouncing of breast feathers of the northerns late in the season over the decoys, and the only way to bring'em down is a wing break with standard steel. I have also seen 4 Hevi Shot #2's pellets go through a lesser and 45 paces.(post mortem analysis) ;)
-
a pretty detailed account
-
Like I have said before and before....Hevisteel B is the shiiiaat for Geese. I found it for 19 bucks a box
-
My number one reason for patterning is to see where my shot circle is hitting in relationship to my bead. Is it a foot high at 30 yards? Then you know to hold the bead a little low when shooting at your target. Even if you don't think you are using your bead when on a moving target, you really are. If your eye is not sighted down the center of that barrel and your cheek tight against the stock, you will not be consistent in hitting birds. My second reasoning for patterning is to see and understand what loads are doing at certain ranges. This will help me decide on what my limits are when shooting a certain load.
-
I kind of sort of agree with miles...but at the same time if i knew i had issues with holes in my pattern or something, i'd try different shells or maybe a different choke, otherwise i'd just compensate, maybe...but i never patterned my duck gun either. who the hell knows what i'd do. my turkey gun is patterned, because i'm aiming, not pointing.
-
Every load will pattern different out of every gun. I have a Winchester SuperX2 that patterns Winchester Xpert 3" ok....but the pattern out of my pump didn't do to hot. I crippled more birds than I killed. Here is an example
Winchester Xperts out of my SX2. It's an ok pattern, but could be better
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj75%2Freflex_2006%2Fhunting%2520pics%2Fpattern2004.jpg&hash=7c093cf912c26d9facfaf3cddbc2b9fad08d5c82)
The same brand load out of a different gun
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj75%2Freflex_2006%2Fhunting%2520pics%2Fpattern2005.jpg&hash=e30f2c651fc3f4d00a240bbce052c93f1344d759)
So.....see why we pattern guns? Do your self and the crippled birds a favor and pattern a few different loads.....
Here is Hevisteel.......far superior IMO
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj75%2Freflex_2006%2Fhunting%2520pics%2Fpattern2007.jpg&hash=7886906fd38d2d895a06beb93e96a4b29933dc54)
-
I agree with Miles on the part that after a lot of shooting you have an instinctual ability to point and shoot. However, let me pose this question...Have you ever got a new shotgun and not been able to hit *censored* for the first few hundred rounds? I bought my O/U and it took me a long time to get used to it after years of hunting with a semi-auto. I had to learn to hold a little low on my targets and it took a while to figure that out and make it instinctual. I could have probably saved a lot of frustration if I would have patterned it and had a starting point in getting used to it.
Now if I had a shotgun that patterned to the left or right, I don't know what I would do, maybe sell it :dunno: ? If it was only off a slight amount I could live with that. Maybe if it was doing that, it meant my dominant eye wasn't centered on the barrel and I could adjust the cast of the stock? If it was stricitly the gun, I wouldn't want to have to learn to adjust my lead depending on if I am swinging left or right on a bird.
-
ok heres my first patter. the paper is 24 inches wide kent fasteel from 40 yards. to me( a clueless newbie) it looks like its kinda gappy
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe96%2Fiseemetoo%2FP1000926.jpg&hash=59b656b47feefba2ac36b6807aa42fa318008c73)
-
what choke??
you might try a tighter choke if you can change them IMO.
Now if I had a shotgun that patterned to the left or right, I don't know what I would do, maybe sell it ? If it was only off a slight amount I could live with that. Maybe if it was doing that, it meant my dominant eye wasn't centered on the barrel and I could adjust the cast of the stock? If it was stricitly the gun, I wouldn't want to have to learn to adjust my lead depending on if I am swinging left or right on a bird.
my turkey gun shoots right. i'd like to add some sights that are windage adjustable, but for now i just aim left.
-
improved cyl
-
Use your Modified choke
-
what he said.
you'll see vast improvements.
-
Jackelope, sorry..........didn't mean to Hi-jack the thread.
-
no need to apologize.
everybody's input is needed
-
lol thanks guys.
-
Back in the day when you could use spinning wing decoys I shot a 20 guage shooting 3" Kents... mostly size 3s w/ IC and Mod chokes in my O/U. That was mostly early season stuff.
I primarly shoot 3" 12 gauge... again Kent Fasteel in 3s and 2s for ducks. I've had good patterning in both IC and Mod tubes on my 12 autoloader.
Geese.... 10 gauge 3 1/2" BBB Rem Steel through Mod.
All the tungsten stuff is too rich for my blood and I haven't seen any significant difference in killing capacity when I've shot Bismuth. Looking at the density measurements on it, it's actually not a whole lot better than steel. I may have to try and reload some the the hevi-shoot.
-
settled in on a load. 8) federal black cloud 3inch 4's for ducks.