Post by: Elknut1 on December 29, 2007, 07:05:41 AM
It appears that there are many elk hunters dedicated to this Forum. That's very commendable! I have a question for you guys here. If you were giving a Seminar on Elk Hunting, what would you give one on?
Think about it. It would be something you may know about or that you feel others really needed to know in order to help them be better elk hunters. Even if you don't know much about a subject, what is it if you had the knowledge that you feel is a subject not discussed enough that would better most hunters in their endeavors to be better elk hunters? This can apply to both Bowhunters & Rifle hunters. Getting a great draw area certainly helps but cannot be counted on so what is it others need to know to aid them in consistent success in the elkwoods?
Your answer need not be long but what's missing at many of these Seminars?
ElkNut/Paul
Post by: WDFW-SUX on December 29, 2007, 09:12:55 AM
The one thing that I really like in an elk seminar is when the person gives examples of cow call sequencing and at what point in the encounter to use the different noises / tones.
The biggest thing that I have had problems with over the years is getting a bull too close the distance gap between 65 yards to under 50. Someone who can demonstrate effective tricks/ techniques on calling for bulls solo would be worth there wait in gold IMHO.
By the way what units are you hunting Rosies in this year?
Post by: boneaddict on December 29, 2007, 09:21:40 AM
I think there is too much emphasis on calling. Also , most topics seem to be the ideal situation, where you might be alone in the woods, on private land somewhere in some super elk mecca where big bulls are rip roarin hot. Not your typical hunting situation.
elk behaviors, how they react to pressure, more true case scenerio in hunting. Course that would give everyone "my" edge, so I probably would talk about elk calling. :)
Post by: PolarBear on December 29, 2007, 09:38:10 AM
Post by: Ironhead on December 29, 2007, 11:05:05 AM
works well and should be a weapon in the arsenal of all Elk hunters. The obvious, wind in your face and as scent free as possible should be in the same bag , but calling in big smelly rutting bulls is big fun and effective in the right situations. I would not call bugleing off the side of a well traveled road calling I would call that educating the Elk.
I also like to watch undisturbed Elk behavior, and learn what the sounds they are making might mean. This is where Elknut can help those that don't know, he can explain what that sound means in a certain situatuion and how to use it to your advantage. I would bet Elknut is a lot like you Bone, in that he knows the animals in his woods, his photo gallery speaks for itself.
As far as seminar material, I like to hear about what works for other people. When to call when not to call.The meaning of different Elk sounds. What makes you Successful in your area, just to name a few.
Post by: Bigshooter on December 29, 2007, 02:30:45 PM
So I would tell people to go hunting. And spend time in the woods watching elk. That is when you really learn.
Post by: high country on December 29, 2007, 02:35:37 PM
find the food and water.
locate cover and travel areas.
be prepared for many more elk than you see, they tend to be herd critters
be prepared for them to change their mind and screw it all up at the last second.
that is my advice.
Post by: lemondog on December 29, 2007, 05:28:47 PM
Post by: Elknut1 on December 29, 2007, 09:58:44 PM
Passion, thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate the support there!
You'd love the Seminars then, I always do a segment on "Hung-Up Bulls" Why they do this & how to combat it. That is one of my favorite subjects for sure! (grin) Great idea you have there! I'm not sure of the unit for the Rosies, I just know it's about 30 miles from the coast & not sure of where that is either, there's another hunter who's setting it up.
Boneaddict & PolarBear, I can certainly understand your feelings on calling, many these days are mis-using calls & overcalling for sure, I would not disagree with that at all. This is one good reason why it's so important to educate elk hunters & not educate the elk. So many times it's the opposite! I firmly believe & practice that to be a complete "elk hunter" you must be a versatile one. This means you should be able to handle any encounter with elk you may come across, this doesn't mean you will kill every elk you come in contact with but your odds will be better than not knowing what to do. A complete hunter should be a very good caller, he should know what sounds mean what, he should have a good idea what elk are saying or asking, he should be aware of elk sounds that require response/aid from other elk, he should know when not to call in varying encounters, he should be willing to adapt to any & all encounters that will give him the best odds for a given situation. He needs to know when to be aggressive, he needs to understand what makes elk tick! Not all encounters require calling.
If a hunter is one dimensional he is missing out on one heck of a lot of opportunities & will not know what to do on many encounters that elk escape because of a lack of knowledge in different aspects of hunting elk.
Let me give you a couple of examples.I'm referring to hunting elk in Aug-Sept-Oct, as this is the most popular times. Pre-rut--Peak-rut--Post-rut. Say you're a Spot & Stalk type of hunter, you spot a herd with a decent bull in it he can either be the only bull or there could be some sattelites hanging around the herd. You get to a spot where they're headed in an attempt to ambush this herd, you know the herd is still behind & to your left 200yds as you heard the bull minutes before. You come through a section of timber & brush to head them off & set a good setup/ambush spot with good wind, just as you round the timber there's 3 cows staring right at you not 40yds away, you stop & sink into the surroundings best you can, you know at least one spotted you & is really rubber necking it in your direction. What are you going to do? If you cow call to try & settle them down do you think they'll buy it? Most likely not, problem is the herd bull is still well behind them, how would a non-caller still get a great opportunity to kill this bull? This is a calling situation or else these elk will bust out of there most likely barking--Game Over--Some chalk that up to, Oh Well that's hunting! When actually they just let go a perfect encounter to bring that herd bull right to them!
Call & Stalk--I'm sure you've used this as well. You get a bull bugling on his own & indian your way into him, everything is perfect, you're 60yds out & he doesn't have a clue you're there, you're also looking hard for any unseen cows, you don't see any so you slowly slip in trying to get to bowrange, all of a sudden you see a movement & there's a cow up above you that saw you moving, bummer, she bolts, the bull hears her then another runs, man you're so close. Now what? What's your best chances still of killing that bull, after all you just spent an hour to get where you're at? Should you cow call or should you bugle or what, what is the most fitting sound that you can give that won't raise the "proverbial" red flag in this instance, remember you must act quickly & come up with the right decision!
When things go right & proper in the 2 instances I mention then great! But when things go array you'd better be ready & have it under control & have the confidence that your next move is the right one!
I bring up these things because we too only hunt Public Land, no draws, ranches or private areas, all OTC land. Understanding situations & elk sounds definitely comes from experience & being in real life encounters as someone mentioned. The thing is Seminars can help cut the learning curve immensely in these areas & tons others by understanding the many sounds elk make & what they expect to hear under various encounters if you're a real elk. Just a couple things to consider? (grin) By the way, what would you do in those situations?
ElkNut1
Post by: Coasthunterjay on December 29, 2007, 10:32:47 PM
Personally i dont like loosing animals so i think i would do a seminar on teaching people how to better prepare themselves for the shot they are going to take and how to track there animal in case a poorly placed shot was made......
Post by: Elknut1 on December 30, 2007, 05:42:50 AM
Bigshooter--Very true! Thing is, can you imagine how many years it would take to be a good elk hunter & successful one consistently taking elk with archery equipment if you were new & there was no info about it all anywhere? It would take many years of trial & errors as one stumbles through the woods trying to learn on his own. These days we just don't have years, hunters want to be successful to some degree now! There's many ways to measure success. Having a great time & sharing stories to having close encounters are all pluses, but having an elk on the ground is icing on the cake, yet very achievable by taking time to read books, watch elk stuff, listening to others who are willing to share info with you on their methods of success. It's very important for others to "Pass It On" doing this helps keep elk hunting & other facets of hunting alive & exciting. It gets to the point that one expects to take an elk everytime he goes out, now that's confidence in ones abilities & his knowledge of the animal.
It doesn't happen of course everytime, but thinking it will shows the right die hard attitude that is needed in elk hunting. Too many are so concerned that if they share with others their knowledge that others may now know what they know & it could cut into their success rate. That's a terrible attitude to manifest. I'll bet at some point in their hunting adventures someone has helped them out in the past, yet they're not willing to share needed info with others. Thing is, if others hunted smart like they are they would actually hunt elk much smarter & not have the tendency to push elk out of areas because of not knowing any better, it could benefit all parties involved. Things to consider!! (grin)
lemondog--Tresstanding elk is a great way to hunt elk, location,location,location!!!
High country--Good Points for sure--I find that calling elk is the best way to finding their feeding,bedding,traveling,wallowing areas, etc. But not in the the way most hunters would think, I do this everyear in new or often hunted areas, it doesn't matter. And I can do this in a couple of days not a couple of years! It's all in the sounds you use & when, this will work on the cagiest elk around! Without a doubt the further away from heavily hunted areas you are the better. This doesn't mean there are no elk within a mile of roads because they are, it's all on your approach!!
Coasthunterjay--Excellent idea!! I will incorporate a segment of that in the upcoming Seminars. Thank You!!
ElkNut1
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2007, 07:28:41 AM
Ironhead...you are right....
You guys are saying what I meant. TRUST ME, I use calls as part of my arsenal, but I know how to talk to the elk, and use them to my advantage, just as it sound like Elknut does. Each situation is different and you see how the animals are reacting. There are so many fools out there that watch a seminar or a show on the tube then run out and buy a call or two and start blowing. It doesn't work that way. As elknut stated...who is training who. There are how many million guys out there all with a hoochie Mama strapped to their neck because its easy to "blow" how many times do you think that bull elk that has been shot at for the last 8 years will be duped by that call. soooooo "Typical Hunting Situation" where you have teams of guys moving in on you while calling, the animals are call shy, stuff like that. It was amazing the success I had in the Gila, while most of the guys were striking out, whining about how call shy the elk were. As you guys have stated, you just hve to know when you should blow on that thing. The other advantage I had was that I had a custom cow call in my pocket that none of those animals had heard.
Post by: high country on December 30, 2007, 10:37:06 AM
All in all I think you have to know your area before you can adopt a calling strategy. I can tell you if you bust out your hoochie mama and primos power bugle anywhere within 50 miles of spokane during the season you will get that real lonely feeling.
I think the where and when dictates the how in calling or not calling.
Post by: Elknut1 on December 31, 2007, 06:09:23 AM
Very,Very good points guys! The Hoochie Mama/Pack Bugle rage, what else can you say??? (grin) It's so true that the better or more believable caller you are along with knowing when & where to use selective sounds is as big an issue as to being in a good elk area. Once you've located elk you need to know what to do with them. I find hunters who do little to no calling hunt this way for the most part because they're not good or confident at it. Too, there's so much more than calling elk that is involved such as natural elk movement/breaking things in many situations to "make it real". Bottom line here, the "classic bugle" just isn't going to get it done much pass locating them unless you're pulling in a few curious sattelites who don't know you by your sound.
Bulls-- huff,pant,wheeze,snort,grunt,challenge,locate,chuckle,advertise themselves,cow call,call cows,huffing grunts,bark,nervous/popping grunts,glunk,round-up bugle etc.
Cows--bark,nervous/poppinig grunts,social cow calls,invite bulls over,alarm chirps,mews,distress mews & whines,separated,lost sounds,pre-estrus whines,bugle,come this way calls,beg/plead,fighting sounds, etc.
Yes elk make many sounds, key is to know what each sound means & when it's used. Elk know!! (grin) The more your calling fits an encounter the less likely elk are to be timid or very cautious in their approach or just getting a response, yes even in heavily hunted areas, overcalling or not knowing what you're saying is a bigger issue here than anything!
For instance---You're heading in just before light to your hunting spot & you hear a bugle up ahead still several hundred yds out, do you say, oh there's a bull there, or are you more apt to pay close attention to WHAT he's saying. It will better your odds to know what he's saying so you now what you're going to do next! What if the bull was doing nothing more than calling cows or advertising his location, (do you know that sound) & you come back at him with a bugle followed with several grunts. You just challenged this bull & told him to get out of here he's not welcome. Did you know that? This bull most likely was not looking for a confrontation at all, just some loving! (grin) You blew the whole thing because you didn't understand the situation. More times than not a guy blames calling doesn't work on these bulls or he blames that he bugled way toooo big for him, that's nonsense!! What if you returned with a cow call but he wouldn't leave his position yet he tried his best to call you too him? Would you recognize that unique bugle? It's situations like this where bulls hang-up!
Another one---You're bugling an area in hopes of locating a bull, eventually you hear one respond with nothing more than chuckling, (not grunts) what does this mean? I know many of you have been in this very situation, what does a guy do next? What's this bull saying? This bull is not responding to you!!! He's responding because of you!! His chuckling only, shows he's got cows & he's chuckling to gather them up quickly so they can move out if pressured by you or this new bull in the area. You could have received a challenge too, but apparently this guy is not in a defensive mood or his response would have been different. You're better off here to move in quickly on this bulls position & give some soft sweet mews, he'll think you were possibly with this other bull but you'd rather be with this group, there's a great chance he'll come to try & hook you up before the other bull shows up.
Here's 2 simple scenarios we've all been in, there tons more, imagine if you were very familiar with the various sounds elk make & when, this really gives you a leg up on what's going on & how to handle it from there! Think about the other sounds mentioned above, do you know when they are used?
Feel free to ask about any one of them or one of your own.
I appreciate all your great comments, you have good insight!
ElkNut1
Post by: high country on December 31, 2007, 08:01:35 AM
Post by: BLUEBULLS on December 31, 2007, 08:08:34 AM
I am lucky enough to spend most of the fall hunting an area filled with bulls and very few cows. Although I'm never lucky enough to draw a branch bull tag I do get to learn a lot about the elk and the sounds they make. I spend a lot of time sitting in the dark listening to elk and I think I've learned more between 8 and 10 pm than any other time of day. When I'm out hunting and i want to play with a bull I usually call just enough to get him in and once I see him I like to throw some different sounds at him and watch how he reacts. Time in the field and experimenting have been extremely helpful for me.
I look forward to seeing you in Pasco.
Post by: Elknut1 on December 31, 2007, 07:05:10 PM
High Country, Thank You, that is very kind of you, I appreciate it.
BLUEBULLS, I couldn't agree with you more! Learning new sounds or just having ones memory jogged about some sounds we may have forgotten is always refreshing especially so when the elk themselves are the teachers!
I too have had the privilege of being around elk for many years now & can appreciate your comments & enthusiasm as well. I have several thousand hours logged in the study of Elk Vocalization in over 25years of doing so. I've had the privilege of feeding a herd of 45-75 for 5 years & lived with them day & night. I learned tons back in the 80's when this occurred. It has since those days carried over to Elk Hunting now! (grin) I wouldn't have it any other way!!!!
It's Sites like this where we can really learn a lot from fellow hunters, this learning process is a school where no one graduates. No one man will ever know it all, if he thinks he does he's only fooling himself & his ego. I truly enjoy others sharing their tips & experiences as much as I enjoy sharing what I've learned over the years. Thanks for a great post! Please look me up at the Sports Show, I'll be in booth #133 or hook up after the Seminar?
ElkNut1
Post by: boneaddict on January 06, 2008, 07:07:40 AM
I think its great the Seahawks won yesterday. Do they have a chance against Greenbay?
This gal just came to my window and she was hot.
I wonder when coffee break is.
What does this have to do with this thread? When you blow on a call, you hare having a "converstaion". When you are trying to have "love talk", do you break in and start talking about football. When you're busy visiting with a bunch of friends at the movie theatre and relaxed, do you yell FIRE! I hate to make animals out to be people, because they are not. Its just to illustrate the point. Learn how to talk to the animals for each given situation, and you will have more fun and success than you'll ever know.
Post by: Map on January 08, 2008, 11:44:08 PM
Secondly is something I am guilty of as well. Don't set you goals too high, keep them realistic.
Guys who are starting out should consider taking cows and smaller bulls where legal to gather more confidence in the real situation if they haven't killed much with a bow prior.
Post by: Elknut1 on January 09, 2008, 05:54:00 AM
I totally agree, that if one has few to no archery kills on elk his sights & goals should be set so they are "attainable" ones, this cuts down on your frustration level considerably! Any elk with a bow is a trophy, when ones lose sight of that it can take away a lot of the enjoyment of pursuing elk with a bow!
As far as it's not too tough to get elk into bowrange, Hmmm! Not sure where you hunt there but most any states statistics will dis-agree with that statement! I do agree being in control & calm when it's crunch time is important & a big key to success, even though it can be difficult for newer elk hunters, heck, the excitement level can be heart stopping! (grin) Of course I'm referring to OTC elk hunts on public land during general seasons. Not draw hunts or private land or LE units, those areas can not be compared to calling/hunting elk like during general season OTC hunts. Big difference in hunting pressured elk to non-pressured savvy elk.
I'm sure most who have difficulty in putting elk on the ground or within bowrange are hunting areas everyone else is? That's where the difficulty lies & a lot of "tag soup" is being consumed! (grin)
ElkNut1
Post by: Fullabull on January 09, 2008, 02:35:32 PM
Glad to see you here on this forum. We talked a couple years ago just before I ordered your videos. I have learned a lot from them but one thing I believe I always have a problem with is knowing when to be more aggressive with the elk, and I do not mean in calling them but actually going after them or him. I have had to many situations when I later realized that if I had been more aggressive I may have had a much better change at taking an elk. I think I also tend not be patient enough and give elk enough time to come in even when I know the general direction he or they might be. I often figure they must have moved off and then I move off in another direction so I don't push them.
What are the signs that tell you when to be patient and when to be aggressive?
Thanks in advance for your help and addvice.
Fred (Fullabull)
Post by: Elknut1 on January 10, 2008, 06:17:18 AM
Fred, good to see you're still around! I remember talking with you as well. ---When to be patient & when to be aggressive can fill volumes! (grin) There are so many encounters that can vary enough where one must adapt quickly to unraveling circumstances, many times things don't go as hoped for or planned! We do our best to size an animal up the minute we hear his first bugle or bull sound, once it's decided were dealing with a herd bull or sattelite we form a strategy, the sattelite will require less aggressiveness than the herd bull. If one can sneak into a vocal herd bull & take him, great! But that's not always the case. One must be prepared to get aggressive if needed.
I'm not one to say it didn't work out today so I'll leave & try him another day, many times there is no other day! (grin) Instead I get as close as I dare, under 100yds & scream right in his face with some stomping & raking such as in Vol-4 which I know you have. There's other things I may do but this gives you an idea!
If I'm cow calling a bull & he hangs-up because he wants the cow to come to him then I'll use measures to let him know why she's not coming, not just keep cow calling, he will get nervous & vacate many times, he knows something ain't right, she should've came! Too, a decoy can be worth it's weight in gold at times, I always carry one for those "just in case" times!
My question to you is be more specific in your question, give us an example or 2 where you feel you could have done something different or a particular encounter went sour & you feel it didn't have too?
ElkNut1
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 10, 2008, 06:22:35 AM
Post by: Elknut1 on January 10, 2008, 06:48:41 AM
I personally like the Cow Elk l the best but the Cow Elk lll is a close 2nd. the Rump Cow Elk ll is very good to use with one of the others when a guy wants to use 2 decoys. I'm referring to the Montana Decoys as I like them best, they're tough as nails & super light weight! You can see them on our Site if you'd like at www.elknut.com
A Decoy can be a solo elk hunters best friend in many different encounters!
ElkNut1
Post by: Fullabull on January 15, 2008, 11:29:03 AM
Here are a couple examples when I later realized I should have been more aggressive.
1. I'm walking a old logging road on a ridge before the sun comes up and sending out locater bugles every 100 to 150 yards as sound will only travel so far before it can not be heard (this is down and around the Saint Helens area so it's pretty thick). About the third or forth locater bugle gets a reply from about 1/4 to 1/2 mile away, way down in the creek bottom. At first it just sounded like a hey I'm here with some chuckles at the end. So I start working my way down and over to where I think it came from, about half way there I send out another locater to pinpoint him and he lets go with a screaming bugle with grunts at the end this time. So now I'm thinking he's telling me "hey dude this is my part of heaven you need to take a hike". I continue to work down within I believe 200 yrds and do it again,,,,again he screams and grunts at me. (by the way, this was all before I purchased your first two videos) So now I let him know there are a couple cows with this little twerp and he really goes nuts (it was incredible to hear him in that creek bottom) but he will not budge (it wasn't until I got your other videos that I realized he probably had a bunch of cows with him and did not want to leave them). Anyway, he wouldn't come to me and I was afraid to move through some pretty open timber to get down to him so I tried to get aggressive in calling and tried the "Threat" and made a bunch of noise hoping he would break away for a look see but he then just went quiet and I could no longer get him to answer anything. This happened two days in a row so it was both frustrating and incredible at the same time.
I later felt like I should have just worked my way down into the creek bottom farther back and then start working towards him. This would have put me into a better position to sneak up to them. But both times I ended up trying to call him to me and later felt like I should have just tried to sneak into his comfort zone. Advise?
2. This last year I hunted the north east corner of WA. It was sweltering hot every day so we could only hunt the mornings. I had my dad with me and he couldn't get around very well in the heat. One morning I was working my way up to the ridge lines and I heard what sounded like a very lazy short soft bugle, like a bull had heard me coming up the trail and just wanted to let me know he was there just in case I was some company. I tried to get set up so I was out of site and started making a few soft cow calls (this is where I know I made a mistake and didn't make any noise to go along with my cow sounds), he would not answer. I didn't wait very long and started moving up the trail again thinking he was probably moving off (patients would have been good here). I got a about 100 yards up the trail and I he gave the old nervous bark. I didn't answer back and just tried to spot him, I could not find where he was nor could I hear him. I ended up moving off towards the area I was first heading to and never saw a thing......Should I have had more patients when I started cow calling? How long should I wait before making another move in a situation like this. After my first mistake and I heard him do the nervous bark, should I have tried to move in his direction and try and spot him? Maybe this would have aloud me to get his direction of movement so I could try and cut him off. I'm pretty sure he was alone as there was no action going on at all in the area do to the heat....Advise?
By the way, I set my dad up in a spot I knew elk moved through some times and he had a spike come to his calls...the spike came out into the open and just stood around for a bit then he decided to start jogging towards my dad (this was my dads first time bow hunting and he didn't have his bow in hand when the spike showed up so he was trying to inch forward to grab it when the spike decided to jog down towards him). When the spike reached ten yards and passed behind a stump, my dad grabbed his bow. At that same moment the spike smelled my dad and turned on a dime to go back up the trail. By the time me dad realized he should cow call to stop him the spike was about 45 yards away. My dad reached for the string "With His Fingers" (he has a realease) and started pulling it back. By the time the string reached his cheek he realized he had a release.....he said he really felt like an idiot at that point and had to watch the spike walk away. But it was a great experience for him none the less and will bring him back next year.
Sorry for the long winded reply but thanks for always making yourself available to help other in this great persuite of hunting elk.
Fred
Post by: Elknut1 on January 16, 2008, 06:24:45 AM
Fred, Sure sounds like you had a great time with the bulls there! (grin) I'll help out all I can, although I'll be some what speculating on "what might have happened" Not being there & hearing for myself some of his sounds can be tough in an evaluation sitting here behind my PC. (grin) 1st off, I personally do not like making contact with a bull then getting closer to him & calling some more. Bulls can tell you're making your way towards him & his harem, this can give even the most vocal bulls time to gather his cows & ready them for a possible escape. Instead, once contact is made like your situation with bugling, I'd stay right there & do my best to get his location fairly pinned down & decide if it's a sattelite or herd bull I'm dealing with. If a herd bull, such as your case, I then will stay right there for 2 minutes or so & call 2 more times in that span to let him know I'm still in the same spot & I haven't approached him but instead am heeding his warnings. ( if 2 hunters, then one can stay there & keep vocal while a shooter slips in on him) I would also be listening intently to his bugles, are they staying threatening or is he now changing to a "round up" bugle readying his cows for this escape. As a lone hunter, I then get over towards him as quick & quietly as possible & do not want to be seen or smelled. Once close enough I'll evaluate the situation & see what's my best odds of taking him. If outside of 80yds, I would stay away from general cow calling because most bulls will not come to you but instead try & call you to them which means they hang-up.
If any cow calling is done at all at that distance it must be aggressively done, this can get his attention! He still may hang-up which means now you have to show him why? This is where the Threat can now come in!!!! Or I may choose not to do any calling & do my best to continue forward but very patiently & get as close to him or his cows as possible. If you can get close to his cows without being seen you've got a good chance of taking him when he makes his rounds tending to them, bulls will eventually check on all cows. So be very patient, if wind isn't holding well & you have to do something, scream in his face, he'll be there shortly, you'd better have an arrow nocked & be ready! (grin) We've taken bulls both ways in this exact scenario.
In your 1st & 2nd encounter where all was going well vocally then nothing. It's very possible the lead cow came to investigate this new bull,(you) in most cases you never see her but she sees you, she then returns to them & ushers the whole herd out of there. You're left standing thinking what the heck happened, this happens a lot to many hunters & they aren't none the wiser about it! Most blame it on their bugling! Encounters can vary, which method of use would work best is tough to say not being right there & watching things unravel.
On your 2nd scenario, the "nervous grunt" is a tough one to over come when it's the bull that hits you with it first & not you first! We've taken bulls with your exact experience. When a bull sounds off with this sound, you're very close at first contact, you're still OK, he hasn't figured you out yet but wants to make sure what you are & not a possible threat! When there's 2 hunters like in your case, leave a shooter right there & he needs to be ready, then have the 2nd guy start walking away softly snapping twigs as he's leaving & rustling a bit of brush, too he needs to give some very soft chirps as he's leaving, 3 will do in a 60 yd span, in many cases this bull will show up where he heard the 1st chirp & smell where this cow once stood, this can offer the shooter his chance! At times the shooter may need to advance from his location to better position himself if the bull just stays there trying to call this cow that's leaving. Again one would have to be there to see what's the best thing to do at the time.
Here's a bull my son took where the bull hit us at 40yds with a nervous grunt in thick cover, I did exactly what I just suggested to you, it can work! (grin)
ElkNut1
Post by: Fullabull on January 16, 2008, 08:04:21 AM
I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm calling to much at times which may not sound natural for the situation. What you said above makes a lot of sense. I'm starting to figure out their sounds a lot more I just need to figure out more on how and when to react to those sounds. I learn a little more each year I hunt elk with a bow. There is nothing like archery hunting for elk, I have taken bulls with a rifle in the past but it's nothing like hunting them with a bow. Still waiting for my first harvest but I know it's getting closer.
Thanks for all you help and I hope to meet you some time.
Fred
Post by: Little Fish on January 17, 2008, 05:49:43 PM
Like other folks I've been in a number of situations where I've had animals respond to my calls, come to my calls, blow out of town when they hear my calls etc. I am getting smarter and learning lots every time I go into the woods, but as a beggining hunter I personally think it would benefit me if you took several real life examples of experiences people have had in the woods and decipher them for your seminar audience with an explanation of what you might change up if you were in the same situation (Fred's story and your response is a perfect example). I've picked up a lot from reading books/surfing forums/watching videos/talking to people etc, but there is serious gap in my knowledge of what to do between getting my first response from a bull and closing the deal. Other than gaining first hand experience over a number of seasons or tagging along with an experienced hunter the best way I can think of to bridge that gap is to have more experienced guys explain what's going on and how to handle a number of real life situations.
At any rate, I hope that makes sense. I appreciate the help you've given to me and the input you are providing to the forum.
James
Post by: Elknut1 on January 17, 2008, 09:32:17 PM
Little fish, What you say you need & would enjoy hearing is exactly what our Seminars about. I totally agree with your thoughts as well as many others do too! We cover many sounds & whats happening & turn it around into methods & techniques of use, real life experience stuff, not maybe or unproven thoughts! Hope to see you at one some day!!
ElkNut1