Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: nwhunter on January 02, 2008, 01:03:13 PM
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First off great job to Wea330mag on his efforts and commitment to his hunt. It was enjoyable to follow you on your hunt especially for those of us who have hunted that country and knew where you were and what you faced every day with weather, fog and roads that time of year while trying to find that buck of a lifetime. I have come home from a "hunt of a lifetime" with my tag unnotched so can relate some to how you probably feel now that it is over. It hurts but when you gave it your all it is still hunting and nothing is guaranteed so be glad for the experience and new friends you have made and go into the new year with your head up.
As I followed the post week after week my main thought was , wow the entiat is really hurting as far as what used to be a trophy hunt by Washington standards. I believe it was only five years ago that we were over there bowhunting the late season before it went to a draw tag and we saw lots of 22-26" bucks and a few in the 28" range while only hunting one drainage. Then it went to a draw which did limit the bow hunters to 310 tags and the rifle tags increased to 50 or 60 tags. While we all want to draw those tags and enjoy what is one of Washingtons best late tags I think the tags need to be cut back drastically and let the mature buck population rebuild. A few years back during December you could hunt little pockets up potato and mud creek and see numerous shooter bucks and with all the snow this December they should have been there. After last year I was questioning the lack of bucks but now I really believe we have a problem. That country has the habitat and genes to make for a trophy area but needs to be managed for it. Hopefully the WDFW is noticing this and will cut back tags and right a sinking ship. I am sure there are still some 180 -200 bucks out there that stay out off sight or on private but there should be a lot more 24-26 inch four points on the wintering ground in my opinion. Just my two cents. nwhunter
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"That country has the habitat and genes to make for a trophy area but needs to be managed for it."
We had this discussion a couple months back, got pretty heated if I remember correctly. I agree it should be managed for the trophy aspect but there are those that believe the trophy aspect means giving up their chance of hunting these areas. They cant see the forest through the trees and its this short sightedness that will destroy these trophy areas. Unfortunately to them quantity is more important than quality and are satisfied with seeing forkies and 2nd year 3 year points.
As I said in the "3 point" thread, I believe there needs to be a special hunt of some sort that can cull the number of big 2 points and 3 points. It clearly evedent that there are large numbers of these bucks running around spreading these (arguably) deficient genes, leaving less and less does the 4 points breed with.
"Hopefully the WDFW is noticing this and will cut back tags and right a sinking ship"
That would be nice but unlikely. They get way too much preasure from the quantity group over the quality group, lets be real on this one, we are the minority. I understand both sides of the arguement, the difference is I am willing to make some of these areas permit only, and not many of them, to help the number of bigger bucks come back, unfortunatly again, I am the minority. I cant remember who it was on this site that absolutely flipped out last time this was brought up but I'm quite sure he will pop on here and give us his reasoning behind his beliefs, and remember if he does, he is entitled to his opinion folks, even if you dont agree. Maybe we could have a civil, adult discussion on it this time? ;) Just my $.02 by the way!!!
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The 2 years that the Entiat was open for general late archery put a big hurt on the herd. That and the number of late tags that are issued has not really let the area recover for a trophy quality herd. It's too open and has too many roads to allow unlimited hunting at that time of year.
There is also a big issue with shed hunting that a lot of people probably don't realize. Go hike into Crum or Steliko this time of year and check out how hammered the area is by shed hunters on snowmobiles. These guys are in there from December untill the snow melts covering every square inch they can ride looking for sheds. Pretty much on a daily basis too. I think that has affected the herd and maybe changed it forever. The deer are only going to take it for so long before they change their patterns on where they winter when they have that kind of pressure.
I talked to the area biologist a couple years ago about the shed hunting and he thought that it was becoming a major factor in winter survival.
The game dept can't close the land as it is USFS land and they need pressure from both the WDFW and citizens.
-Lowedog
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agree with everyone, you are exactly right Lowedog. its ridiculous and sad as to what they have done. They knew what they were doing, and know what they are doing now. And we all know they arent goign to change it until there is a large die off. They dont have the you know whats to make a change now.
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Lowedog, with the new Federal Executive order created only a few months ago preserving hunting, you might be able to write the USFS to deal effectively with that situation given it is occurring on USFS land's. Might be worth a try.
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Entiat Mule Deer management = :puke:
Every year I go back to go hunting it gets worse...... whats that tell you?
I don't think I even want to waste my deer points on it at this point either :dunno: If a guy with the governors tag can hunt for 30 days and see 1 180 buck I'm not interested.
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I will definitely second your thoughts on a reduction of tags. I drew one of the coveted late archery tags last year. I hunted my butt off, I probably put over 100 miles on my boots and hours behind the glasses. I seen litterally 100's of bucks and only one that would have made the 180 mark and he had broke off one fork. It seemed like 20 - 22" 3's and 4's were a dime a dozen.
I had been hunting the Okanogan country prior to the Entiat tag and I had seen far more quality bucks up there, the #'s of deer were definitely fewer but the quality was better.
Maybe we need to send a link to this post to the WDFW...
Coon
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What everyone else said. The USFS would close several of the key in a heart beat if WDFW asked. They just will not ask. There is not effective game management in Wa., and it has very little to do with the lower level people. The problem is mid-level and up. The WDFW is not managing the wildlife in our best interest. My only suggestion is to keep after them and show up at the meetings. Maybe the RMEF and MDF chapters can start putting some statewide organized pressure on the WDFW. Lowedog nailed it though because there are a majority of hunters who are unwilling to give up an area for a quality hunt. I have watched a lot of those decent 18-20's that should be good bucks the next year never appear. Just more and more 18-20's the last few years. The number of bucks that I consider shooters has steadily declined, and I believe it is due to the late hunting pressure both rifle and archery. They will do the same with the Swakane if they don't shorten the late seasons.
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"The game dept can't close the land as it is USFS land and they need pressure from both the WDFW and citizens."
Maybe not but they could close it to motorized vehicles
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Not going to argue anything said so far......but.....I wish someone would listen to me about the huge kill 3 years ago on that late general season hunt. Everyon was so damn excited about it and tons and tons of nice bucks bit the dust. The Methow was wiped out. I ahve no idea about the Entiat, but suspect it was the same. There were VERY few bucks left that were older than 2 years old. WELL, we are now at the point where those bucks would be in their prime. There are VERY few left to be in their prime. throw in everything mentioned above and there is not going to be any in their prime due to the hnting pressure. Toss in the lack of predator control and what do you have. It doesn't take a rocket scienctist to figure out what over hunting, too much access,tribal hunting (not necessarily a problem in the Entiat) and too many save the predator folks, will do to a thriving herd anywhere. Toss in wlakie talkies, cell phones, satellite, internet, range finders, long range rifles, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers and every other little trinket we have, does a deer have a chance?
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It was pretty awesome when the brain trust at the game department let the season run through the end of October.............. :bs:
I personally put my hands on 3 bucks that were 175+ out of the methow that year and saw one deer in the hoof that is still the biggest Washington deer that I have seen to date.
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It boils down to too many people living in Washington. The game department is part blame too with their lack of management, but they can only do so much due to the overpopulation of hunters here. As many of us, we are Washington natives, and I dont say that with any bad intention to people who have moved here and enjoy the sport over the last ten years. I say ten years because I along with many others will notice that even that long ago the population here was obviously less. Then the argument starts what it was like forty or fifty years ago. The list can go on. In the end, the obvious reason resurfaces, too many people, not enough space. I would actually like to see this state manage as well as Nevada. I wouldnt have any problem if residents had to draw a big game license each year :dunno: If that is what it would take to make this state a better big game area, I would be all for it. Personally, I would rather have a shot at a nice buck or bull every 3 or 4 years, then struggle with finding a legal buck every year and dealing with all the idiots in the field.
MS
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So heres a question for you, I remember hunting 15 years ago, the season went through the end of Oct. and according to the state, there were more licenses sold. We always hunted the last 4-5 days of the season, generally into the first part of Nov. We hunted the same areas I hunted as a lad 30 years ago with my dad, and still hunt today. We would seldom see other hunters and when we did it was generally the same people every season. So why is it now, with arguably less hunters, that I cant walk across a ridge, or around a draw and not see four other guys within 500 yards of each other. Just my $.02 but now that the season has been shortened to 8 days it forces all the hunters, that were once spread out over time, into the same areas at the same time. The legal deer that are anywhere but the highest, most remote areas of the state, dont stand a chance. To many people out at the same time for them to find anywhere to go without being seen. Now I know this doesnt have much to do with the trophy bucks but if there are any older smart bucks that have come down by then, it doesnt matter how smart or wiley they may be, there is nowhere they can go and escape unless its private property and unfortunatly they dont know the difference, regardless what some of you may think :chuckle:
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I agree with everyone! I was gonna start a post on the subject as well. Pretty sad when you can hunt the month of December and not see a 180 class buck. Like was mentioned in an earlier post, all of 300's entries should be read by the hunter education courses! I think the local biologists should be reading them! When they increased the tag allotments, it ruined that unit. A decrease in tag numbers would be a great start.
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Not going to argue anything said so far......but.....I wish someone would listen to me about the huge kill 3 years ago on that late general season hunt. Everyon was so damn excited about it and tons and tons of nice bucks bit the dust. The Methow was wiped out. I ahve no idea about the Entiat, but suspect it was the same. There were VERY few bucks left that were older than 2 years old. WELL, we are now at the point where those bucks would be in their prime. There are VERY few left to be in their prime. throw in everything mentioned above and there is not going to be any in their prime due to the hnting pressure. Toss in the lack of predator control and what do you have. It doesn't take a rocket scienctist to figure out what over hunting, too much access,tribal hunting (not necessarily a problem in the Entiat) and too many save the predator folks, will do to a thriving herd anywhere. Toss in wlakie talkies, cell phones, satellite, internet, range finders, long range rifles, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers and every other little trinket we have, does a deer have a chance?
Agreed. We have hunted the Entiat for 25 years, and after the tyee burn, no place for deer to hide during the hunt. This area really changed with the depleted timber zones. Snow is covering areas previously covered with timber, wide open, bucks can be seen from miles away in many places.
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I think we are all in agreement here. When I first received notice of the raffle tag, I thought a 180 was going to be a gimmie. I had many people telling me that the Entiat was full of 180+ deer. Unfortunately for me, these guys had not been in the Entiat for 3 years.
The same goes for the Desert. It used to be the top choice on my permit app every year. It's not going to even be a choice for me anymore. I spent 8 full days wandering around in there and saw one buck I would harvest with a normal permit. All the pics of the big deer out of there are either from years past or private land. I have never seen so many dink bucks in one place.
I am real curious as to what the Gov tag will go for next year. The last three years have been, nada, nada, and a 170ish this year. This is with a lot of hired hands. I realize these guys have a lot of extra money to throw away but I am betting the tag bid price will continue to decrease.
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Guys I think what Boneaddict said has a significant part in why the buck numbers are down on the top end, the longer season really took a toll on the more mature bucks. I predict in a few more years we will get back to where it was in 02 and 03, but thats barring a killer winter which we are over due for as it has been 10+ years since that last happened.
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Good posts by everybody. The basic problem as MuleySniper said, is too many people living and hunting in this state, and of course, the lack of management by the WDFW. I have a hard time putting all the blame on the DFW though, because what they are doing is trying to please the most people, and MOST people want to hunt deer every single year, and they want don't want any limitations on where they hunt, AND they want a long season. There is simply too much pressure being put on our mule deer. It's hard to admit, but the problem is US.
I wonder how it would go over if hunters were limited to hunting either deer OR elk in a particular year, instead of BOTH. That might be a good way to limit pressure. I know it will never happen, but if it did, I would be happy to limit myself to only one species per year if it meant a drastic reduction in the number of hunters in the field at a time.
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Posting for a bud who has been following this post. His opinion on the low deer numbers that has not been mentioned is the last few winters. The last two winters 05/06 - 06/07 have been substantially worse for snow considering the winters of 04/05 - 05-6. Not only the higher snow depth, but the type of winter with the warming then cold causing heavy snow crusting. His opinion is based on all the dead deer numbers has seen in the spring while shed hunting the Entiat/Swakane/Chiwawa area. This does not count the increased road kills, dog kills, orchard kill, and ones that were already eaten by scavangers. Just his opinion based on what he has seen. He agrees with the previous posts also, but he also thinks mother nature is compounding the hunter pressure. Don't forget 92 and 96 and how long it took for the deer to come back. Idaho still has not recovered it's mule deer from 92.
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Interesting Dbllunger!!!
Actually the winters in the last couple years have not been that bad on mule deer, its been the other things that have taken the toll on them.
Obviously your friend can read these posts, is there a reason he cant post his own questions or points? No offense or accusations meant, just wondering.
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I guess he just does not want to sign up. I would disagree also on the last two winters not being hard on deer. They could have been worse, but compared to the previous 2 or even three years the winters have been substantially colder, longer, more snow, and with some melting and freezing. The Methow had a flood warning in January I believe three years ago. There is no way to have that kind of melt unless there is a substantial period of warming. I have seen deer with legs totally scraped up from frozen snow, and that has to factor in. I don't have any interest in shed hunting so I don't spend a lot of time in the woods during late winter/spring. When some pretty hard core shed guys are seeing more dead deer then the previous two years there must be something to it. Everyone agrees there are many reasons for the decline, but the largest issue for me comes down to poor game management. Good management factors in all the possible factors COUGARS AND COYOTES are a huge problem also. After factoring in all aspects then set your goals for the upcoming year. In Bo Patterson's own words "We do not manage for trophy animals in Wa....We have several units we limit hunting to offer increased opportunities at more mature animals....Unfortunately a vast majority of hunters are happy just getting a buck, and they are the ones that determine the agencies main focus....I would love to have and have suggested a few trophy units, but I just don't see it happening in the near future". So deduct what you want from that. I can plainly see the middle and upper level is not even listening to the lower level, but making game management decisions based on politics.
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:iamwithstupid: ;)
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According to statistics of snowpack depth (max. snow/water equivalent) at Stevens Pass, 2003 and 2004 were below average years and 2005 was the lowest recorded level ever. 2006 and 2007 were simply average years. We have not had a large snowpack year since 2002...
I can't help but think about the snow machines driven all over the winter range. That must effect these deer. Additionally, the deer herd is simply managed for maximum hunting opportunity and not quality deer. Consequently, when I see a 165" WA mule deer I think that is equivalent to a 180" deer in another western state.
shawn
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I really love the fact that everyone is concerned about the decline of trophy animals in this state especially the Entiat. I harvested a 191 buck out of there the last year it was open. The year before they made it a permit area. When it was just a regular late season I hardly saw anyone. First year of the special permit season there were people everywhere. I do believe they need to cut back the number of tags in that unit and make it a 3 point min. again. Also as 300 can account for when he was riding with rougheye there were people all over the place shed hunting. We need to give the animals a break especially the bucks. Think about it they are rutting hard and being chased by hunters for a good month .. They are pooped.. Maybe the state should close it to shed hunting until May like they do Oak creek.
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What will it take to get the WDFW to start managing for quality instead of quantity? As the others have said ithe Entiat gets TOO MUCH PRESSURE in a lot of different ways. Those Entiat Deer are being hunted from Sept. through mid Dec.
High hunt, General modern, Modern permit, Permit archery x 2, Then snow machines and Shed hunting till early summer then campers and hikers and it starts all over again. That unit is known as one of the best if not the best in the state and every body wants a part of it. It and a few other units have to be managed better or they will never be what they could be. We need an initiative for Mule Deer to better the herds and use the potential this state has. Washinton looks at itself as one of the states at the forefront of major political and civil issues yet our Game and Fish department is so far behind the rest of the west. It's time we get this straightened out.
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I think the members of this board should get organized and when they do the next 3 year season setting be organized and see if they can make a change through the process they have in place.
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The state is too greedy it will never work. they need to do this with elk herds too. I think ti would be great you must buy a liscense and tag to put in for hunt adn draw for certain areas. Some areas need to be eraticated of many whitetails and let the muleys grow too.
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All of the western states used to be greedy but one by one they have started figuring out that the Non- Residents were bringing in the money. With not only the huge prices of liscense and tag sales but the fuel ,food and motel costs too. It's got to start somewhere.
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Jeff knows who I am. We don't agree on anything. Its pointless.
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Ok Fellas, As one who spent my 8 points over there it is clear you are all correct, too much pressure. No big deer. Change can happen and it can start here. We can get some "Trophy" units put in place. The department manages for what the people want, and what the"budget" can handel. Change in the hunter base is happening. My dad could care less about quality as long as he could drive his jeep anywhere he wanted to go. There are now more of us than ever that are willing to sacrifice for "quality". Will it cost more. YES. But will it cost less than I am spending to try to get drawn in Colorado or Nevada? YES! We need to get this thing going so that when the next season input session happens the are hearing what we are saying. Hunting needs to be a quality outdoor experience. It rarely is while it is being managed to close to the way it was 20 years ago.....Lets get it started.
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I'm only half-kidding when I say we should all chip in $20 or so for a Political Action Committee (PAC) or lobbyist to take some of these sensible ideas to Olympia. And, yeah, this site is being seen by employees of WDFW, many of whom undoubtedly agree. Good work, guys; keep rattlin' their cages! :beatdeadhorse:
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I agree with Bone on the beginning of the end being the year of the early snow and all the bucks that were killed during the regular rifle season that year. It was the first year that the entiat went to a draw for archery and we didn't draw so were hunting the swakane. We stopped in at the store in ardenvoir to look at the picture board and were amazed/appalled at the big bucks that had been taken and the dates were reg season not the late tag holders. I'm sure the late tag holders also got their share and the archers too and we will never recover from that without cutting back. Even one year without any late tags for any weapon would make a difference and then cut the tags way back would get us started in the right direction. I'm glad that most guys on here are in agreement and would support change to make this unit better. I don't understand the snowmobiles going everywhere when we were told you can't even ride a quad on the main gravel roads let alone a skid road over there? When we were up in the twisp country I remember seeing a gate on a main road system that the sign said it was closed every winter to protect the migrating deer in that area, why not put up some of those on every main gravel road? nwhunter
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nwhunter has a good point.Why cant it be managed like the okanagan???I to have hunted the entiat since about 2001 for archery.Ive never shot a deer yet but i had some quality days of chaseing bucks all day long.I never saw no 180 class bucks.Lots and lots of 20-25in 3-5 pointers.I never saw another hunter in the general late season enless it was on the road.I had 6points and got drawn the 1st year it went to permit only.There were guys everywere ans no deer due to the lack of snow.In the prevous 3 years i think i only saw maybe 5 nice bucks killed.But i dont hang out on the road either and thats were i saw them on my way back to the truck.I almost shot a spike with my permit it was so bad.I still like the idea of taking like 5 units and rotating them every couple or 5 years and then close them down for 5 years.There is no reason there should not be a late archery permit over in the methow for a prime example.......
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Lesson to learn...Steve Dauma (Retired Captain out of Moses Lake/Ephrata) told me those who create the most noise will get what they want. He told me if there were enough people focused and screaming the state would listen. It was not totally about numbers but about contiual and concentrated requests. He told me the falcon hunters or what ever they are called pushed a lot of things through because they were at every meeting with the same request. Not only regional meetings but the meetings held in Olympia including the regular politicians/ass kissers/oops board/commission meetings.
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I don't understand the snowmobiles going everywhere when we were told you can't even ride a quad on the main gravel roads let alone a skid road over there?
Great point....I totally agree.
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I don't understand the snowmobiles going everywhere when we were told you can't even ride a quad on the main gravel roads let alone a skid road over there? When we were up in the twisp country I remember seeing a gate on a main road system that the sign said it was closed every winter to protect the migrating deer in that area, why not put up some of those on every main gravel road? nwhunter
Snowmobiles fall under different rules than wheeled machines. The road system in the Entiat/Swakane/Chiwawa extends all the way over to Fish Lake/Lake Wenatchee area which is a very popular snowmobiling area. You can launch at Fish Lake, ride to the cafe at Ardenvoir to have lunch and ride back. Lots of people do it, most are not riding around chasing deer. You would need lots of gates to change things. They should stop the guys that are down in the wintering areas with snow machines, they are up to no good. I'm not trying to defend anyone here, I'm just saying that gating off all of the roads in those areas would be nearly impossible (with the exception of the Mule deer wintering areas).
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I live by Elk heights in Cleelum and if I take my sled across the freeway I can only take the high rode .THe lower road is posted for wintering dee and elk.Big fines if you get caught in there.I dont know why they cant do something like that.When I took 300 weatherby on my sleds in the Entiat that was the first time I had ever used them for huntingand I have to say I was blown away at the deers response.I saw deer running from 600 yards away like someone was actually shooting at them. For them to run like that inn 2 feet of snow and burn all that energy I felt like I was hurting the population and alot of these guys are out there every day.I think they need to do a better job managing the permit hunters .There is stilla ton of deer in there just not near as many big mature bucks
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Does anyone know when the next season setting periods are? I agree, squeeky wheel gets the grease!
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dbllunger Your friend is very observant. Last years winter was very hard even with average snow depths. VERY early heavy snows and then a warmup and then rains created a horrible crust and icy conditions. Again, this may be the Methow and not the Entiat. I notice that Wenatchee has much warmer temps than up North. This crust made it nearly impossible for the deer to move around accept in established trails. It made it VERY dfficult for the animals to get theri food, extra effort for pawing etc, and...the worst part, coyotes and dogs were able to travel very well on the crust and killed at will. Up until now, the deep snow in the Methow has been powder, and the deer have had it fairly easy. The rains coming in this weekend may change all that, but at least its deeper into the winter than last year.
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PROBLEMS
You have to be careful when we start eliminating a user group, such as saying no more snowmobiles on state land, which has happened all around Yakima, and much of the Methow. Its like saying no more horseback riding in the wilderness or stuff like that. It is Public land. We all do pay taxes on it, we are going to have a huge tract of land pretty soon where you can't walk on it until May 1st such as all of the elk closures to keep the shedders at bay. That hits at the mushroom pickers, the flower sniffers, the bird watchers, the rock enthusiasts, etc. Also mindful that the gates close Dec1st around here. That means 300 would have saved alot of gas money, and probably would be buying new boots about now. Not disagrreing with access issues, just making sure everyone sees some other points as well.
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A few points to consider here.
As far as closing the area to snowmobiles. Only the USFS can do that. We can call and voice our concernes. I have heard that there is already some consideration of doing so and concerned hunters letting them know that we feel it should be done will help.
Someone pointed out that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Hunters all over the nation are more and more looking towards quality trophy hunts. Here in WA with the number of hunters wanting more chances at drawing a "trophy" tag the dept is giving us what we want. In return the quality has gone down. The archery guys pushed for years for the Entiat to open back up for them on the late season. Well they got what they wanted and it has hurt the quality. The rifle guys want more oppurtunity to draw a late tag and more tags are issued. 65 this last season I believe. You put 65 guys in there in Nov rifle hunting and the success rate will be real high. Only a few of those people will hold out for a real monster. Most will shoot the first 4 point they see. Some will hold out for a little while and come across a 22-24" buck that would potentialy be a real monster in a couple years. With those young bucks getting killed before they reach maturity the quality suffers. After several years of this you get what we have now.
The 9 day season contributes to the lower quality. With a 14 day season it spread people out a bit. Now you cram all those hunters into 9 days and everyone is out on opening day. The success rate isn't any higher, probably lower for the season but on opening day I'll bet it's higher. The majority of the best bucks I know of that were killed this year were killed on opening day of general season. More eyes in the field on opening day equals big bucks maybe with there guard down a bit and a better chance of being seen and shot. The general season is a difficult situation. The majority of WA hunters want the opportunity to hunt every year and don't care about quality.
Three point minimum has contributed. I am seeing more and more geneticaly inferior bucks make it into maturity and they are breeding does and leaving less does for the superior bucks to breed thus watering down the gene pool. I believe soomeone hit on this earlier.
The 3 point minimum also increases hunting pressure on quality animals by increasing the days afield per kill. Guys who would take any buck are hunting untill they find a legal buck and a lot of times that is a buck that has potential to be a real trophy or already is. I see and hear of mature bucks also that are not legal to shoot. Those bucks need to be removed from the mix. Maybe issue tags for the general season that are any buck tags for youth and seniors or for whoever want to apply?
Sorry for the long winded response but some points I wanted to make.
I like the idea of this group of hunters banding together to be a voice heard by the state on our concerns.
-Lowedog
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Lowedog.....I believe you are dead on......My view for the "Big Picture" is that WA should be completly changed in how it is managed for big game. It would not be very popular to many but could be very succesful. There are just to many people to give oppurtunity to everyone every year. This will sound radical but I think that we should go to a all user draw system. Build the Elk and Deer herds up to "world class" and generate enough $$$$ for the Department with a small % of quality tags going to out of state applicants. You could also do some landowner incentives for habitat improvment and increase bird hunting oppurtunites accross the state to offset some of the loss of field time. This ain't the "60's anymore. Those of you that apply for Colorado, Neveda and Arizona will know what I am talking about. I will take 7 or 8 years to make a full change. What you would find is that you would not be able to hunt every year but people would team up with a guy with a good tag and have a quality outdoor experience. Heck, most general season guys end up not seeing antlers and just camping anyway! The amout of money that out of staters would spend to try to draw what we could produce would suprise many. There may be less hunters overall but when you expand the market accross the country and you have the game there are thousands of people willing to spend a fair amount to draw a great tag. We could develop a really cool place if we could get some eyes opened. Time for change......
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Agree.
Here is a thought. (Maybe a stupid one...) How about some tags in these areas specifically for culling out some of the fully grown, 2x2's..... In Chiwawa, I know of one deer that has been around for years, an absolutely huge 2x2 muley. We all have run into him a few times, and he is left to breed.... This idea would be to reduce the amount of another tag, and pick up this new tag, so that the general population of deer would benefit. Make sense? .... Someone help me here.... :dunno:
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Iceman - I could support some kind of special 2-point hunt. Not sure how it would work, but yes, I've been seeing some BIG 2-point mulies, that likely need to be harvested, so we can get back to growing our beloved 4x4's.
How about all of us die-hard mule deer hunters making an equal effort to get out sometime this winter and zap a few coyotes or fill that cougar tag?
Many good thoughts on this thread. Like anyone else - I'd love to see more of the Big Bucks Washington can produce.
Regards, Guy
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All of you guys have great ideas. You need to email everyone at WDFW and I mean everyone. Make every meeting you can and voice the same opinions. Call the biologists and their bosses. Harass the living *censored* out of them. We need more people then just a few. They pretty much just ignore me as soon as I give them my name anymore. I often don't even get a reply back to my emails anymore where I always got a reply (non-automated) several years ago. I even re-type them every single time to add personal feeling instead of cutting and pasting. I can tell you in conversations there are not that many people who are saying what you are saying that continually relay their feelings to the state. One local Game Agent or biologist is good but not as effective.
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Lowedog, I like the points you made in your post! Spot on! Alot of great Idea's on here. Another option I was thinking would be to open the season earlier for a general hunt just like Wyoming say Sept 15th and run it for two weeks. Then permit only later on, with limited tags. This state has extreme potential, but needs to start at the top!
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SO ............What are we going to do about it?
We can blog about it, complain about it and wish that things were better OR we can let the WDFW know what we are seeing in the field and ask for changes.
I would like to see fewer special permit in all of the Chelan County units south of Lake Chelan. The fires made great forage habitat for winter range but escape cover is very limited. The winter range hunts in November and December need to be greatly reduced. The Swakane unit archery hunt should either be permit only or areas open to archery hunters needs to be expanded to reduce the pressure on that herd.
DO SOMETHING, These people need to hear from us:
Region 2 Director is Dennis Beich, 1550 Alder Street NW, Ephrata, WA 98823 phone (509) 754-4624
Region 2 WDFW Wenatchee Office, 3806 Chelan Hwy North, Wenatchee, WA 98801-9607 (509) 662-0452
WDFW Director, Dr. Jeff Koenings, 600 Capitol Way N, Olympia WA 98501-1091 e-mail Director@dfw.wa.gov
e-mail each of the 9 commissioners at Commission@dfw.gov
Jerry Gutzwiler form Wenatchee is the Commission Chair
They really do listen and most of them do care.
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Muleracks, thanks for the links. I will send mail tonight. I agree we need to spread the archery units out.
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Agree. I will write them as well. Change can happen with involvment.
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10-4 will send a letter as well.
