Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 05:52:56 PM
Post by: BLKBEARKLR on November 30, 2009, 06:01:23 PM
Post by: littlebuf on November 30, 2009, 06:03:08 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on November 30, 2009, 06:05:29 PM
Post by: bow4elk on November 30, 2009, 06:11:33 PM
I almost didn't post this, but it's eating me up inside. I shot a BT buck on Saturday at 4 PM. He was quartering towards me a little. The shot was a little low but the arrow went right through, he ran about 10 yards into a field stood there wobbling and I thought he was done. He walked about 20 more yards started wobbling and almost laid down. he walked about 20 more yards to the other edge of the field started wobbling and after a couple minutes hopped the fence back into the woods. I thought for sure he wasn't going far. My buddy and I went back after about 2 hours because I wanted to make sure he was dead. We found decent blood for about another 40 yards past where he hopped the fence until we hit a spot where the trail split about 8 different ways and then no more blood. We searched for about three hours and nothing. Sunday morning we went back to last blood (which was still there). We searched every trail, did circles, looked for more blood, followed tracks, but nothing, about another three hours before we finally gave up. I think I hit it in the brisket and from what I've heard over the years, unless you hit a main artery in there, the deer will probably live. Like I said, this is eating me up inside. I know that is part of bow hunting but it still blows. So what do you think- DEAD or ALIVE?
I need more specific info about where the arrow entered and if you recovered the arrow. first, if you entered the ribcage, the deer is likely very dead. If you have your arrow and can post a photo that may help. I'm going to assume the arrow passed through quartering toward you, through gut and exited somewhere behind the ribcage on the far side. Can you correct or verify this assumption? A wobbly deer is usually a deer losing a lot of blood quickly. I think you did the right thing by waiting two hours and I'm surprised you didn't find him in his bed. Did you jump him from his bed at any time during tracking? If so, this changes everything but let's start with this and take it one step at a time.
Post by: BrushChimp on November 30, 2009, 06:12:45 PM
Post by: jackelope on November 30, 2009, 06:13:20 PM
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 06:26:20 PM
"I need more specific info about where the arrow entered and if you recovered the arrow. first, if you entered the ribcage, the deer is likely very dead. If you have your arrow and can post a photo that may help. I'm going to assume the arrow passed through quartering toward you, through gut and exited somewhere behind the ribcage on the far side. Can you correct or verify this assumption? A wobbly deer is usually a deer losing a lot of blood quickly. I think you did the right thing by waiting two hours and I'm surprised you didn't find him in his bed. Did you jump him from his bed at any time during tracking? If so, this changes everything but let's start with this and take it one step at a time."
The arrow definitely hit low. I don't thing the angle was steep enough to hit guts. The arrow was covered with pretty bright red blood, little chunks of meat, and white hair. We never jumped him that I could tell, he seemed to walk the whole way, and never bedded down, atleast up until we lost the trail. His back was really arched while I could see him walking. I wish I would have hit him with another arrow when he first stopped but i thought for sure he was going down.
Post by: bow4elk on November 30, 2009, 06:27:08 PM
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 06:32:46 PM
I think we need to define "brisket" here. I'm not reading this shot placement as brisket. "A little low" say vitals, but low. Inside the rib cage is a dead deer. Below the sternum is a flesh wound that will likely heal but NOT produce a "wobbly" reaction multiple times. Please respond to my other post so I can help you out. It may be too late for the meat but not too late to recover your deer.sorry was having problems replying. look above your last post.
Post by: jackelope on November 30, 2009, 06:32:57 PM
i call the brisket his chest area in front of his front shoulders. am i wrong?
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 06:41:40 PM
in front of his front shoulders or behind?right behind the front shoulder and low. his front legs were extended slightly forward.
i call the brisket his chest area in front of his front shoulders. am i wrong?
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on November 30, 2009, 06:42:37 PM
Post by: bow4elk on November 30, 2009, 06:44:18 PM
in front of his front shoulders or behind?right behind the front shoulder and low. his front legs were extended slightly forward.
i call the brisket his chest area in front of his front shoulders. am i wrong?
= Dead deer. Heart and possibly bottom of lungs. A heart-shot deer will typically bolt in an all-out panic run and die at full speed. Based on how this deer reacted, you may have clipped the rear portion of the heart, lower lung and/or liver. He should be within 100 yards of that fence.
Post by: scoyoc5 on November 30, 2009, 06:50:17 PM
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 06:53:39 PM
First of all bad decision on the shot selection, quartering away yes, quartering towards wait for a better angle. That being said, hopefully he is alive but, I am leaning towards pilled up some where in some brush or near a creek dead. From the last statement you said he was walking hunched up and wobbling. This tells me your arrow probably went thru one lung possibly, maybe a partial liver and thru the guts. And if it did enter the abdominal cavity it will not heal itself. I have seen a lot of gut shot deer rifle, or arrow head towards a water source, is there a water source nearby? And you may have possibly bumped him and didn't even know it. If you had penatrated the guts, the gut linning and inners probably started to plug the hole and that's why the loss of the blood trail. That being said it is still hard to tell not being there, all just assumptions off of your statements.Everything you said makes good sense and was my original opinion until talking to people I know back in MI. Quartering towards isn't the best shot and I should have waited. It was just a slight angle towards me. No water source nearby that I know of. I know that they usually head towards water if they're gut shot but the only water is a small lake about a mile away that i don't have access to.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 30, 2009, 06:59:56 PM
Post by: NWBREW on November 30, 2009, 07:04:58 PM
Post by: Goldeneye on November 30, 2009, 07:07:27 PM
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 07:17:11 PM
Post by: bow4elk on November 30, 2009, 07:20:53 PM
Post by: Savage3006 on November 30, 2009, 07:27:23 PM
Post by: scoyoc5 on November 30, 2009, 07:32:49 PM
Post by: NWBREW on November 30, 2009, 07:34:04 PM
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 07:37:52 PM
Not sure where you hunted but I'm in Bothell and can help you look for the deer tomorrow if it's not too far. PM me and let me know if you need any help. :hello:Thanks Savage. I wish that was an option but the lady who owns the property is really weird about people she doesn't know coming around. My buddy and me are the only ones she allows out there for this type of stuff. That's an awesome gesture. It would be nice to be able to get more eyes out there.
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 07:40:25 PM
Patton1.....I live in arlington and do not work tomarrow or the next. PM me if you need some extra help looking. I'd be glad to help if needed..........................BrewThanks to you to Brew, wish that was an option. I got to say there are some great members on here. It says a lot about a person to offer that kind of help to a perfect stranger.
Post by: NWBREW on November 30, 2009, 07:45:28 PM
Patton1.....I live in arlington and do not work tomarrow or the next. PM me if you need some extra help looking. I'd be glad to help if needed..........................BrewThanks to you to Brew, wish that was an option. I got to say there are some great members on here. It says a lot about a person to offer that kind of help to a perfect stranger.
[/quote
I never met a PERFECT stranger. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: If the option arrives let me know.......the offer still stands even if you are perfect....thats ok. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: patton1 on November 30, 2009, 07:50:07 PM
Post by: the1rod on November 30, 2009, 07:57:39 PM
Post by: elksnout on November 30, 2009, 09:14:48 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 01, 2009, 07:00:49 AM
Post by: woodswalker on December 01, 2009, 07:38:20 AM
IMHO that was a poor choice of a shot...quartering AWAY yes, quartering ON...NO :bash:
That deer is likely within 200 yards of where you last saw it...and PROBABLY less than 50 yards.
Start by quartering the area and walking it down in 3 foot swaths. A deer tucked into a bed in brush or tall grass can be invisible from 5 feet away.
Good luck.
You need to decide if you are going to notch your tag or keep hunting.
Post by: Goldeneye on December 01, 2009, 08:00:35 PM
Post by: washelkhntr on December 01, 2009, 08:08:19 PM
Post by: Shootmoore on December 01, 2009, 11:37:55 PM
Shootmoore
PS, this is not just a Bullshooter post, I would be glad to help, besides it gives me a reason to get out in the brush instead of splitting firewood.
Post by: patton1 on December 02, 2009, 02:38:47 PM
Post by: woodswalker on December 02, 2009, 02:44:02 PM
You going to hunt afterwards? or call it and notch your tag?
Post by: Houndhunter on December 02, 2009, 03:34:27 PM
Post by: bow4elk on December 02, 2009, 03:54:21 PM
i dont get why some guys are saying no on the quatering to you if all of you that have said it was a bad choice to take the shot said it will be dead within 200yrds and probably way less :dunno:, i know its not the best but if your close enough i now a guy that has put his time in shooting can put an arrow where it needs to be and will be plenty to get the job done :twocents:. good luck on finding your deer patton1
It's not that you can't kill or hit vitals with that shot but depending on the angle, it's lowers your odds for quick/humane kill and it raises the odds that you'll hit upper leg bones. Liver and gut hits are 100% fatal. Liver within 2 hours; gut can take up to 10 or possibly longer. Most animals will not travel very far after an arrow enters their body cavity IF (very important IF) they are not bumped from their first bed. Hence the 200 yards reference. A gut shot deer will likely bed within 100 yards if suitable bedding cover is nearby and stay in that immediate area until expiring. They may get up and rebed but it will be in a small core area, usually 10 sq. yards or so. This isn't a rule, just a general pattern.
It's true that frontal shots and heavy quartering on shots can quickly kill game. But they are not high percentage kill shots and should be avoided. It's all about ethics. You should simply wait for a broadside or quartering away shot angle to get the best margin of error on your shot placement and increase your odds of a quick/humane kill. The reward is a very short blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow and/or watching your animal stumble and fall within sight. So, why take low probability shots? Hope to get lucky? Uh, no. I don't care how good you are on paper or targets. Try as you might, you can't control all the variables in shooting at game animals. So it's best to take high percentage shots out of respect for the animal and to reduce wounding loss.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 02, 2009, 04:13:10 PM
That being said, I'm always amazed at what some deer survive in terms of archery wounds. That clean slice can close up and be ok some times. Good luck on finding him.
Post by: squeeze2drop on December 02, 2009, 04:42:53 PM
Post by: NWBREW on December 02, 2009, 05:03:58 PM
Patton, I'm glad you went back out to look and I hope that the buck you saw yesterday was the same one you shot at. Good Luck.................Brew
Post by: squeeze2drop on December 02, 2009, 05:08:42 PM
Post by: patton1 on December 02, 2009, 05:47:59 PM
Post by: fly4fish on December 02, 2009, 05:50:58 PM
Post by: NWBREW on December 02, 2009, 05:53:09 PM
Post by: Joe_Hunter on December 02, 2009, 06:01:10 PM
It was weird reading your post because it was like reliving a similar incident for me I shot a BT buck and he headed off just like you said except he was favoring one leg. I could see blood low behind the shoulder and figured I was fine. Recovered the arrow and noticed some gelatinous fat on it. More on that in a minute.
Just like you I had good blood then nothing.... :dunno:
we looked for two days. got to the point we were looking for ravens, crows or coyotes to take us to the now rotten carcuss.... instrad we found the buck. Alive and well with a very sore brisket I had an opportunity to see the buck for about 5 minutes from about 150 yards. The arrow had passed through the elbow area and into the lower brisket. If you ever noticed on a deer the fat on the brisket is a little different than the dense fat on the back and sides, Its a little fluffy for lake of a better term.
I would say if you had fat on the arrow your buck is still alive
Hope this helps.
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 02, 2009, 08:04:28 PM
Keep looking I guess. Please do not be misleading. This is part of hunting, not just bow hunting. My uncle shot a whitetail last weekend low in the briscket with a 270 short mag. It left a lot of blood for a while, then none. My brother went back the next day to look for it and saw a buck he thought he wanted to shoot so he did. Ended up being the briscket shot buck running like it had not been shot at all. Loosing deer happens all the time regardless of what weapon is used.
Shot a spike bull this year @ 25 yds that made a sharp turn right when I fired.... Looked for him for 3 days.... Jumped and saw a lot of elk... Never found him.... He was very distinct.... Saw him during Deer season doing fine within two miles of where shot.... :dunno: They are tough.... No matter how you do it.. First animal I've ever lost... Hopefully the last.... Read the what i found in my animal thread or what ever it's called...
Post by: Joe_Hunter on December 02, 2009, 08:40:45 PM
bow hunt long enough and this type of thing is bound to happen.
Post by: nw_bowhunter on December 02, 2009, 09:16:06 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 02, 2009, 10:02:16 PM
But I will continue to hunt because I paid $45 for a tag that in my opinion shouldn't cost half that, if anything at all.
That's pretty funny. So you think a deer tag in this state should be free? Well I suppose if you feel there's no value in a deer tag, you don't need to purchase one next year. I buy the package deal, four tags for $72, which is only about $18 per tag. Maybe you'd feel better about it if your deer tag was only $18? :dunno:
Post by: squeeze2drop on December 03, 2009, 12:03:57 AM
Post by: coachcw on December 03, 2009, 06:51:37 AM
Post by: TheSilverSlayer on December 03, 2009, 08:59:19 AM
Post by: Houndhunter on December 03, 2009, 09:06:23 AM
Post by: TheSilverSlayer on December 03, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Post by: Joe_Hunter on December 03, 2009, 09:25:49 AM
I'd say that 90% is a little low. It's sad to say but some hunters view that tag as meat in the freezer when in reality all that tag does is give it's holder the privilege to pursue game in an ethical manner.
Ethics dictate that once an animal is wounded we as the tag holders have the responsibility to exhaust every effort to retrieve that game as quickly as possible.
That responsibility should not be taken lightly especially within the first hours after the shot is taken.
I applaud those that gave accounts of their hunts and stated the amount of time spend looking for suspected wounded game. It's reflects the ethics that we embrace as bowhunters. In my opinion the effort to recover wounded game only produces two things. The animal I shot or the Peace of mind that that animal was not mortally wounded. That in itself should tell you weather or not to punch that tag.
Just my :twocents:
Post by: Joe_Hunter on December 03, 2009, 09:28:27 AM
Didn't mean to give the impression I was preaching at you. Just wanted to say that I thought the 90% was a little low then I got on my soapbox
Thanks
;)
Post by: coachcw on December 03, 2009, 09:43:45 AM
Post by: bow4elk on December 03, 2009, 09:58:22 AM
Thanks everybody for your advice and opinion. Squeeze, thanks for the back-up. I knew I was going to catch some flack for my shot choice. Like I said, I haven't got to hunt in last couple of years due to other commitments. I'll admit that I got a little buck fever and probably got a little over confident. I almost didn't post all of this because I figured it might stir up the pot a little. But I knew what to expect. Everybody is entitled to their opinion whether I agree or not. I like any advice and/or opinion because one way or another it helps me learn. I don't agree with a lot of things that other hunters do but anyway you look at it, we are a dieing breed. I probably shouldn't post this!!!!! But I will continue to hunt because I paid $45 for a tag that in my opinion shouldn't cost half that, if anything at all. In MI you can get 2 tags for about $30 and you can Hunt archery, then rifle, then muzzleloader, then back to archery. I chose the archery here because of the amount of time and I'm on an firearm restricted island(ie rifle). I dropped the ball and I know it, I've learned a thing or 2, I feel horrible for the way it went down, but I will fill my tag and put meat in the freezer.
The intent of my input is to help Patton1 find his deer while enabling other folks following along the opportunity to learn something. I have been approached by many newer hunters who've joined the site who want help. They read and they are eager to learn. The value of Patton1's situation is the opportunity to learn, and in the end hopefully to recover his deer. Avoiding certain shot angles with archery equipment is GOOD advice, and NOT a judgement in this context. I know Patton1's intentions are spot on. I don't know him but he's a good guy based on his honest accountability for what happened.
Bowhunter Education is not required in Washington but in my opinion it should be. As an instructor I've had many students who'd been hunting for years with little to no knowledge of anatomy and physiology of game animals. In this respect Bowhunter Education is more about understanding how arrows kill the game we hunt as opposed to a typical Hunter Education class, which is more focused on firearm handling/safety. This is widely evident based on the piles of questions that show up on internet forums and letters to editors in national hunting magazines. People write in asking if their set-up will work on elk or bears, etc. There are countless discussions about broadheads, bow weight, etc. It's clear there are a lot of new or inexperienced bowhunters - which is GREAT!! Let's squeeze some value out this and provide an opportunity for them to LEARN. It all comes down to the very simple fact that killing animals with arrows is about causing quick and massive hemorrhaging. That can only occur by cutting vital tissue with a razor sharp broadhead. Period. It makes good sense that this should be the guiding principle by which all shot decisions are made. :twocents:
Post by: Dipsnort on December 03, 2009, 10:38:19 AM
Post by: patton1 on December 03, 2009, 06:33:53 PM
To the gentleman who posted that his combo tags only really cost him $18 a piece, that's great. So let me ask you, if you were deer hunting and wounded one, would you still go elk hunting, or bear hunting, or would you call it quits for all game that year? Because I don't see any difference. I do think prices are a little much but I do want you to know that if I had 2 tags like I was saying about MI, that I would only try and fill one at this point. I don't think there is any shortage of deer out here especially on this island.
Post by: bobcat on December 03, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
Post by: patton1 on December 03, 2009, 08:43:45 PM
Yes, if I kill a deer, of course I would still go hunting with my cougar, bear, and elk tags. Why wouldn't I? That's why I purchased them ???I said wounded the deer. So you purchased them in case you can't find your deer atleast you get to shoot something else? Maybe I'm not understanding you because I don't think you understand me.
I think this will be my last post about this subject. I'm not looking to argue with anyone or make anyone mad. Thanks for all the posts everyone and I'll be sure to post any updates if something new comes about.
Post by: Curly on December 03, 2009, 09:07:42 PM
In this state, it is a personal decision about hanging up your weapon and not filling your tag if you wound an animal. FWIW, I don't think I would notch the tag if I were you based on how you describe things.
Good luck killing a buck.
BTW - Calling Bobcat a gentleman is way too kind for him. :)