Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: Machias on January 12, 2010, 02:07:22 PM

Title: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Machias on January 12, 2010, 02:07:22 PM: When do you bring your puppy home from the breeder? Judging from several guys who like Wolter's books, I bet alot of guys believe 7 weeks or the 49th day is the best. There are several really good studies done that say you should wait until 10 weeks, here's an excellent article on the subject. What is everyone elses thoughts?

http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/49days.htm
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: whacker1 on January 12, 2010, 02:11:57 PM: brought my puppy home at 7 1/2 weeks - because it was convenient and the breeder (close friend) was ready to have them out of there.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Rowdy on January 12, 2010, 02:16:12 PM: From what I've read and heard from several breeders, a little later is figured to be better. I think most now days let 'em go between 8 and 10 weeks. From what I was told, they learn alot from their littermates and mamma in those couple weeks. I got my guy just after 8 and he seems fine ;)

The other variable is how long the breeder wants 'em around ;) I know if I had a litter, which I highly doubt I ever will, I would probably want 'em out ASAP! :P

:twocents:
Jake
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: jackelope on January 12, 2010, 02:16:34 PM: brought my lab home at 9 weeks.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Shootmoore on January 12, 2010, 02:22:54 PM: I prefer 8 to 10 weeks. I prefer 10 weeks but sometimes the breeder has the final say on it.

Shootmoore
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: PacificNWhunter on January 12, 2010, 02:35:50 PM: Brought my GSP home at 10 weeks. The breeder did not even let the puppies leave until they were nine weeks. From all the visits from other owners and time with his litter mates he seemed pretty well socialized and was 90% crate and house broken. But he also picked up a few bad habbits too I think. Over all I think it worked well for me, my Dad used to breed cheesies and they were gone by 8 weeks.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Machias on January 12, 2010, 02:36:47 PM: Did you guys read the differences in a 7 week or 8 week old pup compared to the 10 week old, pretty big differences. Granted I imagine most breeders are about ready for the little buggers to be gone by 7 or 8 weeks and if brought home will still turn out fine. But the differences is pretty amazing how those two to three weeks have such a profound impact on the rest of the pups life.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: adam.WI on January 12, 2010, 05:46:09 PM: I think there is benefits from both: 7 weeks the dog begins to bond and learn from you early (that can be good and bad)
10 weeks- they learn a lot from the mother, again both good and bad.

Honestly in the end I don't think it will make much of a difference, if you take the time to socialize and train them you will probably end up with a pretty comparable gundog.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Rocky on January 12, 2010, 05:48:25 PM: I got my girl at 7 weeks. SOme breeders prefer to keep them a few weeks long to make sure everything is good with the pup. But I was soo excited for my baby he said he wouldn't make me wait a few more weeks.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 12, 2010, 06:03:44 PM: i breed akc labs and as a breeder i like between 7-8 weeks most pups tend to bond to much after that and take longer to adjust to there new homes. i have sold older pups and that is why i say what i say.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: rasbo on January 12, 2010, 06:21:19 PM: got mine at 8 weeks worked out ok
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Sportfury on January 12, 2010, 07:28:15 PM: Machias,

From all the reading that I have done I believe that 56 days (8 weeks) is good. The pups learn a lot about socializing and pack order if they stay in the litter longer. I have bred chihuahuas and would not let them go until week 8. Whenever we bought pups I would usually ask if they could stay longer with the litter and dam. Anyone who says they got a pup before 7 weeks and that they turned out fine probably has trouble with it socializing with other dogs.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Machias on January 12, 2010, 07:55:27 PM: Please understand a few things, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or argumentative. I have raised two litters of hounds, they have all went to their new homes at 8 weeks. I have bought quite a few pups over the years and almost all came home with me around 8 weeks. I'm not in anyway suggesting that if you get a pup at 7, 8 or 9 weeks it won't turn out fine, quite the contrary, lots, make that thousands upon thousands, have turned out just fine. I believe though you guys are not actually reading the report, your commenting on your experiences. It is a very exstensive report which has been regarded as cutting edge and right on the money by alot of smart people..alot smarter than me. What they are saying is instead of a good dog, if you leave that pup with it's mother and littermates for 2 more weeks you'll have an exceptional pup. It makes no sense to me to spend alot of time researching various breeders and looking at sires and dams so you have the best prospect and then discount a report that says give it 14 more days and you have a much better chance at an even BETTER hunting dog. Great discussion though, I expected the exact responses I'm getting...hard to teach us old dogs new tricks. :)
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Chessie_Guy on January 12, 2010, 09:09:27 PM: Interesting article. To be honest, I skimmed it and picked out some interesting bits. I have two dogs, the elder (female) I picked up at 11 weeks and the younger (male) I picked up at just shy of eight weeks. They are both Chesapeakes. It is tough to compare them because they are very different dogs. However, I do notice traits indicative of both groups discussed in the article: my male is hyper-bonded to me (but he's a Chessie and that's pretty normal), whereas my female is sort of aloof (but she's a Chessie and that is also normal). My female understands how to play with other dogs and has a pretty high tolerance for potential threats, and my male is socially "awkward" at times and tends to see most things as a threat. Et cetera.

While some of these things could be attributed to the factors discussed in the article, I also take note of several distinct differences in the way we socialized and trained both of these dogs. In addition, my male has personality characteristics that I have seen in his sire; so, some of what he does could be hereditary. In the end, from my limited experience and observation, I see the two key factors in having a well-balanced dog are early socialization and a good training program. All other factors being relatively the same (genetics, drive, etc), odds are you'll have a fine hunting dog whether you pick him up at 7/8 weeks or 10.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Machias on January 12, 2010, 09:57:12 PM: Great points Chessie Guy, they still have to have the right type of training. Everyone feel up to discussing training? I am no expert on training retrievers or bird dogs. I am a pretty good track and trail dog trainer. When I first started training coonhounds there was ALOT of old timers who were pretty set in their ways to train hounds, how to break them off trash etc... I was lucky enough to stumble onto a guy named Tom Solberg who put out a couple of outstanding coonhound puppy training books that put me years ahead of where I would have been without reading them.

Same thing when I began to learn about training mules. There was a gentleman who'd trained a bunch of mules, his name is Max Harsha. He still trains alot of mules and they turn out good, however folks like Parelli and Brad Cameron are light years ahead. Their methods turn out outstanding saddle mules without all the mental scars from Mr. Harsha's methods. I still run into old timers who swear by Mr. Harsha methods, it's what they have always known and no amount of talking is going to change that.

The reason I bring it up is I have been doing quite a bit of research on current methods for training versatile pups and alot of the pro trainers, guys who make a living training gun dogs, now say not only is Mr. Wolters books outdated there are parts in his books that can actually do more harm then good. I see alot of guys here have trained dogs using Mr. Wolters books, but it is pretty certain there are several MUCH better books/training methods out now. But because we've used them in the past and got good dogs, why would we ever change...even though there are much much better ways to develop pups into excellent hunting dogs. What are your guys thoughts? Are you open minded enough to consider other training techniques? Or because you've used it in the past and gotten a good enough dog your satisfied with the old methods?
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: adam.WI on January 12, 2010, 10:13:52 PM: Not to say that Mr. Wolter isn't out dated, but books wouldn't sell if he wasn't. So with no intents to offend, If people don't talk that book and program down no one would have to buy training books because of how many copies are out there today.
I've heard many times pick a training program and stick with that one. The end result should be the same, and for the most part a similar time line. I haven't done nearly enough work with my dog due to deployments and a lack of time in general, but she still points, holds birds and loves every one. All I really need out of my Brit. On top of that she duck hunts with me regularly, not necessarily the norm for that breed. She's no lab, but finds and retrieves those birds.

So I will stick with it's a horse a piece.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 12, 2010, 10:28:15 PM: Brought 2 home at 7 weeks, and one at 16 weeks. Others were adoptions @ 9mo and 15 mo. All hunted fine. A lot of trad German breeders don't even begin to train a dog until 1 yr.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Machias on January 12, 2010, 10:36:23 PM: Quote from: adam.WI on January 12, 2010, 10:13:52 PM
Not to say that Mr. Wolter isn't out dated, but books wouldn't sell if he wasn't. So with no intents to offend, If people don't talk that book and program down no one would have to buy training books because of how many copies are out there today.
I've heard many times pick a training program and stick with that one. The end result should be the same, and for the most part a similar time line. I haven't done nearly enough work with my dog due to deployments and a lack of time in general, but she still points, holds birds and loves every one. All I really need out of my Brit. On top of that she duck hunts with me regularly, not necessarily the norm for that breed. She's no lab, but finds and retrieves those birds.

So I will stick with it's a horse a piece.

I understand where your coming from, but these guys are not talking down Mr. Wolters book near as much as they are talking up other methods and pointing out better training techniques...and these folks aren't selling anything. They are trainers who are trying to steer new gun dog owners towards a better way of doing things. One book that is pretty much unanimous is Joan Bailey's "How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves". Supposed to be hands down the best book for pups from 8 weeks to one year.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Chessie_Guy on January 13, 2010, 07:12:27 AM: I own a copy of 'Water Dog', and started out with it. Once I got in with a trainer, I no longer needed it. However, I think the fundamentals are sound, with regard to building on previous skills learned as well as things like working on handling, T-patterns, etc.

I have heard raves about Evan Graham's 'Smartwork', but have no first hand experience.

If anyone is looking for a trainer, send me a PM, and I'll give you the info on mine.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Machias on January 13, 2010, 07:21:22 AM: Quote from: Chessie_Guy on January 13, 2010, 07:12:27 AM
I own a copy of 'Water Dog', and started out with it. Once I got in with a trainer, I no longer needed it. However, I think the fundamentals are sound, with regard to building on previous skills learned as well as things like working on handling, T-patterns, etc.

I have heard raves about Evan Graham's 'Smartwork', but have no first hand experience.

If anyone is looking for a trainer, send me a PM, and I'll give you the info on mine.

I've been hearing the same thing about Mr. Graham's stuff.
Title: Re: 7 weeks? 8 weeks? 10 weeks?
Post by: Rowdy on January 13, 2010, 11:16:47 AM: I read Joan Bailey's book and pretty much followed it for the pup's first year. I also Followed The perfection kennels first DVD. Then I sent the pup for some training with a proffessional do to a divorce taking all my time. IMHO if someone has a well bred dog, followed Joan Bailey's book and the Perfection kennels DVD's, they would end up with a nice hunting dog.

Personally, I really like Bailey's book because I think it laid a really nice foundation for my pup. It doesn't have strict timelines, just estimations of time periods, and it covers everything from the simple stuff to hunting stuff. IMHO, very good book.

Again, the above is just my personal experience and there are more than a couple ways to skin a cat. Good luck with the pup and I can't wait to see some more pics.

:twocents:
Jake