Post by: groundhog on January 25, 2008, 07:56:08 AM
Some of my concerns are;
1) Feeding deer and elk interupts their natural migration. It has an effect of over impacting areas around the feeding and under impacting traditional wintering ground.
2) It creates sanctuaries where animals move to small pieces of private property (where no hunting is allowed) as soon as hunting season starts. This makes it hard for the state to manage or harvest "problem" elk that are doing a lot of damage to private property.
3) It encourages these animals to live in and around housing developments where they are much more likely to get poached or hit by a car.
4) Folks feeding these animals have good intentions but often times they are not feeding enough to sustain the animals and because the animals stopped short of their natural wintering ground there is not enough available forage. The end result is that they are feeding enough to hold the animals but not enough to get them through winter in good shape.
5) I have also noticed that folks will feed the animals to get their sheds and then stop feeding once they have dropped. Now the animal is stuck in a snowed in area that it would not have chosen to winter if it wasn't for the supplemental feed.
Some folks will argue that without feeding we would have a higher winter kill. This could be the case. I guess I feel that they should be able to fend for themselves and that they would do better if they were on their natural wintering ground instead of in someones back yard eating out of a bucket.
The reason I posted this is that I am considering writing to the state to recommend making it illegal to feed big game and I want to hear from both sides of this issue before I move forward.
Post by: Bofire on January 25, 2008, 10:54:36 AM
Try to find an elk around the oak creek feed station in other than late winter... they are few and FAR between.
Many friends feed turkeys thru the winter in Stevens county, the Turkeys scatter come spring.??
Carl
Post by: dbllunger on January 25, 2008, 11:00:17 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on January 25, 2008, 11:04:31 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 01, 2008, 04:27:25 PM
Post by: GoldTip on April 01, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
Post by: outdoorguy on April 01, 2008, 05:19:44 PM
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 01, 2008, 05:46:01 PM
Groundhog, or should I say Gamehog. How many deer do you think you need to blame your lack of getting them on baiters? This is an old subject. There is a poll running on baiting deer for a month now. Maybe we as hunters should all vote to ban guns because of all the school shootings ! You should focus your time on trying to keep the Indians from killing them all instead of trying to close a legal method of hunting that has been around before you ever hunted, but if you think you have enough power to change a 100 year old law, GO FOR IT!!!
Like what outdoorguy posted there are other things that are ten times more important then this....Check out baiting on the search and it should come up....great info and youll also beable to see where i stand on it....LOL....oh and everyone else.....(I say that because i have a very strong opinion where baiting is concerned)
IM ALL FOR BAITING(everything). Dont do it during the season but it shouldnt be illegal.
Post by: KillBilly on April 01, 2008, 05:55:05 PM
:bdid: If you ban all feeding you will never get bear baiting back. If it is legal then leave it.
I also agree with BTKR...if it aint broke leave it alone. Let's work on getting back the baiting we lost. However let us try to do it better and more responsible than before. Every bait site gets a permit and has GPS coordinates for it. Maybe even a class on bio baiting and protection of trees and tree stand use.
Post by: Red Dawg on April 01, 2008, 07:25:26 PM
Post by: robodad on April 01, 2008, 07:32:22 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
Post by: shanevg on April 01, 2008, 08:22:40 PM
hey guys, groundhog never mentioned the word "baiting." He's talking about feeding animals in the winter.
The problem with trying to eliminate feeding animals in the winter, is it would then make it essentially impossible to get bear baiting back. We the hunters should not work on limiting ourselves even more, the "Seattle hippies" are doing enough of that already.
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2008, 08:26:54 PM
Seems my chances are much greater of being struck by lightning.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 01, 2008, 08:54:34 PM
You guys really believe baiting bears will become legal again? :dunno: I don't have that much faith in the voters of this state I guess.
Seems my chances are much greater of being struck by lightning.
No i think it will probably take a few more people getting malled by bears to realize that we might have a problem.....Which will be the same thing for the wolves in a few years when they start hyper-multiplying.....Well see, it could happen.
Post by: Palmer on April 01, 2008, 08:57:20 PM
After reading the Humane Society of the US website, I'm for whatever they are against. Let hunters use all their knowledge and skill to get that one species of big game that they want. Don't limit our opportunity. If you don't agree with feeding or baiting then don't participate in it.
I've seen some baiting practices for whitetail last year that made me uncomfortable but there are plenty of deer to go around. Furthermore, the seasons are short and we only get one deer and one elk so use all the tools you legally are able to use.
Since the winter storms came late this year the big game should have survived the heavy snows. We should see strong numbers of elk and deer. I'm sure any feeding has helped more than harmed.
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2008, 09:06:42 PM
Feeding big game animals would include baiting.
Well, not necessarily. It would depend on how the law was written. They could outlaw feeding of wildlife in the winter and still allow baiting during hunting season. I'm not trying to argue for or against feeding of wildlife, I was just in the beginning trying to point out that this post was not about baiting. In my opinion they are two different things.
Post by: Red Dawg on April 01, 2008, 09:19:49 PM
Post by: Outfitter on April 01, 2008, 09:41:38 PM
Post by: robodad on April 02, 2008, 01:02:21 PM
There are other reasons that have already been thoroughly covered on this board so I will leave it at that.
Quote
We would have to quit planting agricultural fields and cut down all the apple trees on our property
If you harvest these fields and orchards for a living then it is not baiting.
Anybody can kill animals over a pile of food, but it takes skills to out wit and out smart and out maneuver your prey in a fair chase environment, that is what I am about !! (https://hunting-washington.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10689/stirthepot.gif)
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 02, 2008, 01:22:01 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on April 02, 2008, 03:57:51 PM
Know your true enemy, please.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 02, 2008, 04:20:45 PM
I to think that baiting should be illegal, I also think that those that chose to bait animals are lacking some of the necessary skills to be a true hunter, I also think that those who use baiting commercially are stealing from those of us that chose to hunt fair chase.
There are other reasons that have already been thoroughly covered on this board so I will leave it at that.QuoteWe would have to quit planting agricultural fields and cut down all the apple trees on our property
If you harvest these fields and orchards for a living then it is not baiting.
Anybody can kill animals over a pile of food, but it takes skills to out wit and out smart and out maneuver your prey in a fair chase environment, that is what I am about !! (https://hunting-washington.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10689/stirthepot.gif)
That is one of the weakest arguemments I have heard.
My thoughts from another thread.
I am going to go on my little rant again about standing by our fellow outdoorsmen.
Do you think using hounds for bears is ethical? What if it was legal and "ethical" to those that do it? Who's ethics are right? If you think it is un-ethical would you vote to ban the practice? What about baiting?
What about traditional vs compound? Most of the trad guys would gladly turn their backs on any type of rule changes that favor modern bow shooters. And most archers are more than quick to put down rifle hunters.
If you are an upland gamebird hunter you probably don't care much for trappers or leg hold traps. If even just the bird hunters would stand by the trappers we wouldn't have lost the ability to control predators in an effective way in many states. Not to mention part of our heritage that will not be introduced or carried on by our children.
What if you duck hunters lose your right to use your dogs? How will that affect your hunt? How will it affect your enjoyment of the outdoors? Now think about this. Many states have lost the right to use dogs to hunt bears and cougars... it may not be too long before we lose the right to use dogs for any type of hunting.
One of PETA's big targets right now is fishing. Do you think that the elite fly guys are going to help the lowly bait fishermen? Maybe, if they try to outright ban fishing, but if PETA takes small steps and bans live bait, you can bet that most fly fishermen won't vote or will vote to ban bait. It is these small steps that PETA takes that leads to everyone of us losing our hunting and fishing rights.
We, baiter/hound/rifle/archery/fish, are all bricks in the wall...every brick we lose, the weaker we get and the sooner we all fall.
This is not a local issue or even statewide. This is across the whole nation.
If the fishermen (outdoorsman) would stand by the hunter (outdoorsman) the "city folk" and PETA freaks would not stand a chance.
We need to stand and support each other.
Baiting for deer and elk is legal and we need to keep it that way even if you don't participate in that activity. I don't duck hunt, but you can bet that I would stand up for your right to do it. If we lose something we have to fight ten times harder to get it back (if ever) and that allows the anti's to move on to another target.
I may not bait, bow hunt or run dogs, but I stand by and support them. that is what I am about !!
Post by: robodad on April 02, 2008, 05:48:03 PM
We could go back and forth all month about which methods are ethical and which are not so I will just say that, hunters should be willing to give the animal the advantage in every situation !!
Just because something is or was legal does not make it right or ethical in my book.
Quote
It's not skillful to you so lets make it illegal?
This is not the statement I made counselor, I said that if a person needs to use a pile of food to harvest wild animals then he/she lacks the skills necessary to out wit and out maneuver his prey in a fair chase environment.
Post by: Ray on April 02, 2008, 06:09:55 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on April 02, 2008, 06:43:50 PM
Post by: robodad on April 02, 2008, 06:58:04 PM
It has nothing to do with the anti's trying to take away from us it should be us showing the anti's that we are better then that !!
Post by: Curly on April 02, 2008, 07:11:11 PM
I'm all for keeping the rules as they are. Some people are way too busy trying to get into someone else's business instead of carrying on with their own lives.
:yeah:
Post by: Palmer on April 02, 2008, 10:15:05 PM
I'm so sick of this kind of thinking from anti-hunters. Any one else getting fed up? Some of these sick people are sad when an animal dies and happy when a human dies (ie. an American Soldier or a republican).
Post by: Palmer on April 03, 2008, 05:32:22 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on April 03, 2008, 05:52:40 AM
Thank you Billythekidrock. Nicely written.
I agree.
Billy, I went back and reread your thoughts, and I agree with them totally. Often here on this board, I find myself thinking "screw that guy....or who cares about that issue...". But when you look at the bigger picture, you are totally right. We do need to stick together on these issues. I encourage all readers to reread Billy's post and think about the long term.
Where as a group do we want to be in ten years? In Thirty years?
Post by: billythekidrock on April 03, 2008, 06:10:41 AM
Well I guess my ethics are different then yours !!
We could go back and forth all month about which methods are ethical and which are not so I will just say that, hunters should be willing to give the animal the advantage in every situation !!
Just because something is or was legal does not make it right or ethical in my book.
So are you saying I am un-ethical? Who's ethics are right? Mine? Yours? The tribes?
That kind of thinking is why it is against the law to bait bears, chase cougars with dogs and why we can't use legholds.
Is this the attitude you want rifle hunters to have when PETA and HSUS come after archery? Don't be fooled. Archery is on the radar.
Right now hand calls and electronic calls are legal for bears and predators. Did you know that you can use an electric call for elk as well? They are looking to ban electronics period in WA. How will they do it? By "streamlining" the laws. Using an Ecall is against the law for deer so why not elk? Once it is against the law for elk they will "streamline" the rules to make it against the law for bears, cougars and yotes. Once Ecalls are illegal, how long before all calls are illegal.
This is not the HSUS or PETA, this is your WDFW.
Wouldn't you want to let your future kids and grandkids have the option of hunting and fishing?
Right now they will never know the enjoyment of checking a trapline with their father or grandfather because outdoorsmen did not band together and help the trappers.
What else are they going to miss out on?
Post by: billythekidrock on April 03, 2008, 06:11:52 AM
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 09:21:12 AM
Quote
So are you saying I am un-ethical? Who's ethics are right? Mine? Yours? The tribes?
That is a good question, and we will never know the answer to it, everyone has a different point of view on these topics, I did not call anyone's ethics into question I simply stated that your ethics are different then mine and I don't think I should have to support something that I think as unethical I am not trying to make anything illegal I am just saying that if it were illegal it wouldn't bother me.
Quote
That kind of thinking is why it is against the law to bait bears, chase cougars with dogs and why we can't use legholds.
I think these methods are inhumane so it is fine with me that they are illegal.
I realize that we have a different point of view on this subject and would entertain some ideas as to why I am wrong and you are right, Look at this from the animals point of view and tell me a leg hold snare is the way you want your life to come to an end or run like hell scared for your life while a pack of dogs is after you till you are so out of breath that you have to climb a tree to rest and wait for a "hunter" to put you out of your misery.
I choose to hunt these animals using the skills I have learned and not have a dog pack do my hunting for me or a snare set up to catch an animal in and then have to struggle for its life until I get there to end it, I just don't think it is right.
Quote
They are looking to ban electronics period in WA
That would be fine with me, What skills are you using when you turn on an electronic caller ??
It should be us as hunters putting these methods aside and giving the animals a better chance, (Level the playing field if you will)
Post by: Outfitter on April 03, 2008, 09:32:51 AM
Post by: Ray on April 03, 2008, 10:33:39 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on April 03, 2008, 10:38:16 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 03, 2008, 10:55:50 AM
I agree with you about us as hunters banding together to fight against further PETA regulation and No I was absolutely not calling you unethical, I am just taking the animals point of view on this one,
I think these methods are inhumane so it is fine with me that they are illegal.
I hope you keep the rest of us in mind when you vote...You hit quite a few nerves with that lame ass statement. Wait until the Anti's decide that bowhunting is inhumane...it's fine with them if it's illegal.
Post by: MountainWalk on April 03, 2008, 11:03:34 AM
Post by: MountainWalk on April 03, 2008, 11:07:53 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 03, 2008, 11:16:51 AM
I realize that we have a different point of view on this subject and would entertain some ideas as to why I am wrong and you are right, Look at this from the animals point of view and tell me a leg hold snare is the way you want your life to come to an end or run like hell scared for your life while a pack of dogs is after you till you are so out of breath that you have to climb a tree to rest and wait for a "hunter" to put you out of your misery.
I choose to hunt these animals using the skills I have learned and not have a dog pack do my hunting for me or a snare set up to catch an animal in and then have to struggle for its life until I get there to end it, I just don't think it is right.
It should be us as hunters putting these methods aside and giving the animals a better chance, (Level the playing field if you will)
How many hound hunts have you been on? You're totally clueless about the how the dogs work and tree game. You ( and all the anti hunting bottom dwellers) have visions of the game being chased in hot pursuit and the dogs almost catching the game before they tree...WRONG. The game generally climbs the tree to get the heck out of the way of the loud dogs that appear to be getting pretty close. It's pretty obviuos you don't know what you're talking about. After you've followed a pack of dogs for a weekend in the nastiest country you've ever seen, without seeing any game (which is usually the case) you come back on here and give me your rightous BS.
I suspose you're against bird hunting with a dog too? Gimme a break...
Post by: Awesome on April 03, 2008, 11:55:13 AM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on April 03, 2008, 12:02:53 PM
While I'm not out there baiting deer every year...I'm certainly not saying someone else can't. It doesn't affect my hunting experience. The issue of ethics becomes a personal one and we all need to consider where to draw the line at some point.
I use to hunt my uncle's apple orchard for deer. They would come in to feed on them. Was I baiting? I didn't put the apples there. Bear came in too and we hunted them. Is it ok to hunt the deer but not the bear? It was a big commercial orchard. I don't feel like I was doing anything unethical. Don't you get that "feeling" when you aren't quite doing something the right way? That's kind of where I draw the line.
Shawn
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 03, 2008, 12:11:35 PM
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 03, 2008, 12:17:51 PM
Think we have exhausted this subject.
couldnt have said it better myself!
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 12:39:26 PM
Quote
The game generally climbs the tree to get the heck out of the way of the loud dogs that appear to be getting pretty close.
Um I think that is what I said.
Quote
Possibly he is not as informed as he could be about certain types of hunting like hounding. I can say I'm not fully informed on the process. However, I'm also not forming an opinion on that style of hunting either...
OK This is a true statement, I am not an expert in all types of hunting which is why I asked,
Quote
I realize that we have a different point of view on this subject and would entertain some ideas as to why I am wrong and you are right,
So far all I see is accusations saying I am a piece of *censored* because I have a different opinion.
Quote
What skills are you using with a gun for that matter.
I use a gun for a humane kill with the least amount of stress put on the animal.
Quote
Wait until the Anti's decide that bowhunting is inhumane...it's fine with them if it's illegal.
I think bowhunting is humane if carried out properly.
Quote
You must still hunt with a hatchet . Anything else would be unethical.
Nope I hunt with my skills.
We could go on and on about this subject just like the last thread about it but you still have not convinced me that hunting with dogs is ethical, convince me, show me the way I am all ears or why bait is so important to hide behind, I just don't get it so why not tell me why instead of telling me I'm the f'ed up one.
Quote
You're totally clueless about the how the dogs work and tree game
Clue me in, perhaps you can change my mind !
Maybe
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 12:45:26 PM
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 03, 2008, 12:48:47 PM
And i dont think you are a piece of *censored*............ :chuckle:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 03, 2008, 01:04:58 PM
How many days have you sat in a treestand watching an empty bait station? Somehow you've formed an opinion on that...it appears (at least to me) that you use your emotions rather than logic or science to create these opinions.
And- like i said, it's not our job to "enlighten" you. Go out in the field and try to tag along with the hunters that do these things, you might be suprised how ethical and sporting they are. You don't have to carry a gun or kill anything, but rather that sit on here and run your mouth about ethics, get out there and see what it's really like.
QuoteThe game generally climbs the tree to get the heck out of the way of the loud dogs that appear to be getting pretty close.
Um I think that is what I said.
Clue me in, perhaps you can change my mind !
Maybe
That's not what you said- you said "come to an end or run like hell scared for your life while a pack of dogs is after you till you are so out of breath that you have to climb a tree to rest and wait for a "hunter" to put you out of your misery"
You might have better luck on the PETA website trying to convince them to only allow "YOUR" style of righteous hunting and let all of us knuckledraggers perish.
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 01:14:00 PM
Quote
You've never hound hunted, but somehow you think it's inhumane...you said it yourself.
How many days have you sat in a treestand watching an empty bait station? Somehow you've formed an opinion on that...it appears (at least to me) that you use your emotions rather than logic or science to create these opinions.
I guess I won't learn anything from you,
Post by: outdoorguy on April 03, 2008, 01:15:51 PM
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 01:42:16 PM
Quote
I think Robodad blames everything for his unsuccessful hunting methods. Everyone is taking all the deer and bear away from him and his kids.Imagine what his trophy wall looks like. I don't think we need to worry about his opinion anyway. There are plenty of anti's that threaten our sport every day also. I do agree he would be better off on there site !
You sure didn't put allot of thought into this statement did you ??
Post by: wf70gonehunting on April 03, 2008, 01:54:41 PM
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 02:13:45 PM
I would be just fine if baiting of any kind was not allowed, and am content to see the dog teams not harassing the animals for the time being.
Times change and so will the rules and I just hope that the animals are the top priority weather or not that means more regulation. It just sucks that when a method is outlawed for one reason or another that it is not considered a viable option in the future management of the animals instead of forgotten all together.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 03, 2008, 02:20:27 PM
Post by: provider on April 03, 2008, 02:40:48 PM
You're not out campaigning with the Anti's, and nor am I. You just have self imposed high ethical hunting standards. Good for you... very refreshing!
Don't take the personal attacks to heart. You're the one who get's it.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 03, 2008, 03:04:18 PM
You guys are very righteous and that's good. The problem is YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ON ONE OF THE HUNTS AND DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!! Get a clue, you're basing your arguments on the same thing as the anti hunters...your emotions. Let's use some science and real life experiences here folks.
Post by: tlbradford on April 03, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
Most of the issues you call inhumane have been debated endlessly on this forum, a quick search will give you a lot of reading material. Here are a few of my takes on the methods of trapping, baiting, and hound hunting.
Trapping - This is not about the killing of animals. This is about teaching survival skills, linking our past with our present, and preserving a heritage that helped settle the lands that we now call home. God forbid my children ever have to use these skills in a survival setting, but I want them to be able to deploy them if needed. I want my children to grow up seeing the ways that animals may be used to benefit them. I want them to respect the animal by skinning it out properly, caring for the hide or fur, and to be thankful that they were able to outsmart the animal. It takes a heck of a lot more skill to set a stationary trap for a wild animal to walk into, then to hunt them with a rifle. Modern legholds are humane. They allow a trapper to release an animal unharmed if the wrong animal was trapped. They do not leave an animal maimed or to suffer an agonizing death at a later date.
Baiting - This may not take as much skill in woodsmanship as some other methods, but it takes the most work. I applaud the men and women who can sit still for hours on end, who will haul out bait to a site every few days, and put in a huge amount of time and energy for something that is by no means guaranteed. Baiting allows opportunities for those with limited physical capabilities to kill an animal, or see an animal up close. It seems like you are under the impression that baiting is a 100% way of killing an animal. Many times you will have all your bait eaten during the night and will not be able to kill anything during legal shooting light. It also enables you to be selective on what animals you kill. It is much easier for a person hunting a bait station to kill a mature boar instead of a possible sow with cubs, than a rifle hunter walking through the woods.
Hunting with hounds or dogs is not about the prey. Not even in the slightest. It is about developing a relationship with your animals, taking pride in the way they are trained, and how they perform. It is watching these animals do something that is ingrained in them. That is something that they were born to do. It allows for selective harvesting of the prey. It is hard work. Compare it with teaching your kid how to hit a baseball, then years later watching him hit a home run to win the game against his schools rival. You truly need to experience it.
Nobody is asking you to not voice your opinion. We are asking you to be careful how you voice your opinion, and to who you voice your opinion, and to be aware how you are being viewed by others. There are too many people out there that want to take away our rights, and although you obviously do not see it, the methods you may enjoy will be the next target.
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 03:25:25 PM
Quote
Get a clue, you're basing your arguments on the same thing as the anti hunters...your emotions. Let's use some science and real life experiences here folks.
I agree here and it is what I have been asking for all along.
WAcoyotehunter: The PM you sent was the best information I have recieved on here yet regarding these subjects. Thank You !!
I would love for some of you folks to take me through a typical hound hunt and show me what is ethical about it, I have never been on a hound hunt and can only base my views on what I have read and seen on the DVD's and what is presented through the media. I know I am not the only one in here that can't see how ethical this practice is so please tell me your experiences with out calling me names. !!
Quote
Don't criticize people until you walk a mile in their shoes...then when you criticize them you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
:sas:
Post by: Ray on April 03, 2008, 04:03:26 PM
People who want to put their ethics on everyone else is the problem around here and it is an infection across America. Mind your own business and the world would be better off. The last thing we need is another regulation. Some of you are too busy fighting the wrong fight and expending your energy because you feel compelled to appeal to the wants of other groups which do not hunt or make a distinction between the acts anyway. Or perhaps make a distinction in your approach to hunting animals which is superior in your own mind. If people are against hunting animals it doesn't matter how you do it; they are not going to approve. I'm not making appeals to any anti hunting groups and I would not call something that has been going on for generations a scourge that is a black scar on hunters. You've probably got too much energy and time on your hands that could be used more effectively if you had found some way to give back to the hunting community.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 03, 2008, 04:13:52 PM
Quote
It should be us as hunters putting these methods aside and giving the animals a better chance, (Level the playing field if you will)
Sometimes it is not about chance or a level playing field. Most of the time it is about wildlife management.
Quote
I can't help but notice that since hunting with dogs and baiting bears is illegal, there is a much better chance for me to see them in the woods and maybe there will be some left for my kids to hunt.
That is not a completely true statement.
Before 1996 we were on an upswing in bear harvests. We have more bears now (including in the 90's) then in the last few decades because of sound management. Bears were removed from varmint status and year round seasons by the F&G and hunters. That population continued to grow into a large base of mature breeding animals. That base help to expand the population exponentially. If I remember correctly the only year that we had a lower harvest rate was 1997. After that we killed more bears then the previous with out dogs or bait.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 03, 2008, 04:24:59 PM
Quote
That would be fine with me, What skills are you using when you turn on an electronic caller ??
It should be us as hunters putting these methods aside and giving the animals a better chance, (Level the playing field if you will)
It is not about skill, it is about options, safety and having adequate tools for game management. But if that is the question then the skill is in the scouting, stalking and making the shot.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on April 03, 2008, 04:45:15 PM
I still think guns give the man the edge. If you don't take it with your bare hands you're a sissy.
People who want to put their ethics on everyone else is the problem around here and it is an infection across America. Mind your own business and the world would be better off. The last thing we need is another regulation. Some of you are too busy fighting the wrong fight and expending your energy because you feel compelled to appeal to the wants of other groups which do not hunt or make a distinction between the acts anyway. Or perhaps make a distinction in your approach to hunting animals which is superior in your own mind. If people are against hunting animals it doesn't matter how you do it; they are not going to approve. I'm not making appeals to any anti hunting groups and I would not call something that has been going on for generations a scourge that is a black scar on hunters. You've probably got too much energy and time on your hands that could be used more effectively if you had found some way to give back to the hunting community.
I never thought I would say this but I agree 100% with Huntwa/Ray.
Can we please stop making the connection that you must do something first to form an opinion about it? I don't have to be hit in the face to know it will hurt. I don't have to hunt bison to tell you I wouldn't like it. I don't have to high fence hunt to tell you I wouldn't like it. As long as you possess basic knowledge about the issue you have the right to form an opinion. Now I'm not so sure I would share an opinion I'm not fully educated about... but to each his own.
While many want this thread to die...that's what this forum is for. If you don't want to read it then don't.
Shawn
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 05:36:49 PM
Post by: M_ray on April 03, 2008, 06:08:20 PM
I'll tell you my experiences with baiting bears back when it was leagal. In short it was allot of hard work that started months before the season, a big fuel expense, and not as easy as people would think ... it's not like the bears would just run in to the bait! It was difficult to out smart the big ones and also afforded the opportunity to examine the bear up close as they are hard to judge from a distance. Young ones and female are easy to let walk when you can tell what they are from 25 yards. Now we are forced to hunt them over a berry Field and from long ranges, many females with cubs have been shot and those cubs will suffer a gruesome death at the hands of male bears after mom is gone, so shoot one mom with two cubs you didn't see and you have now killed three bears!
Back to the judging from a distance point since the change in law there has been more than one guy who shot a bear at 250 yards that claimed he thought "It was bigger than that!" and many young females are shot at distance as well and will not reproduce. I know this sounds long but I could write 10 pages of detail on how to and what to do once you get a hot bait going but all I know it was allot of hard work and rewarding and no different than you trying to out smart that whitetail from a treestand! Which by the way we hunted over baits with our bows too!
Post by: Outfitter on April 03, 2008, 06:36:22 PM
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 03, 2008, 06:46:00 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 03, 2008, 06:49:54 PM
Quote
In short it was allot of hard work that started months before the season, a big fuel expense, and not as easy as people would think ... it's not like the bears would just run in to the bait!
Baiting can be alot harder then calling, especially the physical parts.
Post by: robodad on April 03, 2008, 07:58:04 PM
I will not likely engage in these practices and am realizing that I should not have opened my mouth again on this subject,
Quote
I think robodad likes to stir the pot up everyonce and a while.....
You are wrong, I was looking for some real answers and was having a hard time getting anyone to give them up.
It is all good, Just a matter of opinion and nothing more, I do it my way and you do it yours, no big deal. I won't call your method unethical any more until I have more information OK .... (https://hunting-washington.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10689/yield.gif)
Post by: Houndhunter on April 03, 2008, 08:45:26 PM
Trapping - This is not about the killing of animals. This is about teaching survival skills, linking our past with our present, and preserving a heritage that helped settle the lands that we now call home. God forbid my children ever have to use these skills in a survival setting, but I want them to be able to deploy them if needed. I want my children to grow up seeing the ways that animals may be used to benefit them. I want them to respect the animal by skinning it out properly, caring for the hide or fur, and to be thankful that they were able to outsmart the animal. It takes a heck of a lot more skill to set a stationary trap for a wild animal to walk into, then to hunt them with a rifle. Modern legholds are humane. They allow a trapper to release an animal unharmed if the wrong animal was trapped. They do not leave an animal maimed or to suffer an agonizing death at a later date.
pretty much trapping is about killing animals, in a resourceful way. the only reason trapping is around today (in washington) is because you get animal population problems without it. it really has nothing to do with survival, or having it as a way to remember back then
And to add a bit more, modern traps are very humane. if i had a couple million bucks i would make a commercial and show them how animals react to traps such as a basic long spring or coil spring
just wanted chime in a lil
Post by: M_ray on April 03, 2008, 08:48:18 PM
I was just trying to give you something else to think about and if you want more let me know there is much more detail of getting up at 3:00 am 4-5 days a week, collecting doughnuts, driving 150 miles RT, hiking 3 miles with your bait on a pack board & oh then it's time to go to work!
And if your bait is hot and it's a big boy you may have to step that up to a daily routine just to keep him interested. Not to mention you do all of this and then he's also a smarty cause trial timers tell you he comes in and eats 15 minutes after you leave the bait (so you know he hears you there) but you never see him when you sit in your treestand because he probably knows you are there too! So you have to figure out ways to out smart him if you even hope to get a look at him!
Post by: M_ray on April 03, 2008, 08:54:19 PM
Quote
M-RAY for president !!
That's funny!!!! (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Flol%2F1.gif&hash=000b50f287af6dfd6b0ac9bfad0cbe3d9ddebad3)
I don't know about that one...but thanks outfitter.
Post by: tlbradford on April 03, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
pretty much trapping is about killing animals, in a resourceful way. the only reason trapping is around today (in washington) is because you get animal population problems without it. it really has nothing to do with survival, or having it as a way to remember back then
And to add a bit more, modern traps are very humane. if i had a couple million bucks i would make a commercial and show them how animals react to traps such as a basic long spring or coil spring
just wanted chime in a lil
Actually you are only talking about a specific type of trapping used for damage control. Running a trap line in the middle of nowhere is not about population control, and today's fur prices usually make it a break even deal.
Post by: Houndhunter on April 03, 2008, 09:24:07 PM
anyway you want to put it, its about killing animals to keep the overal enviroment intact
Post by: tlbradford on April 03, 2008, 09:36:00 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 04, 2008, 05:57:28 AM
Quote
You don't need trapping in the middle of nowhere to regulate the population of a species. The land will only hold a finite amount of animals.
While the land can only hold so much, there are times when we need to regulate a species out in the middle of nowhere. Take bears and the damage they do to timber for example.
Post by: tlbradford on April 04, 2008, 06:56:13 AM
While the land can only hold so much, there are times when we need to regulate a species out in the middle of nowhere. Take bears and the damage they do to timber for example.
Right, which brings us back to damage control.
The only things I disagree with Houndhunter on is that recreational trappers are doing it to just to kill animals or make money. I also disagree with his statement that trapping is not a survival skill, when it is a means to provide you with food and clothing.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 04, 2008, 04:15:59 PM
While the land can only hold so much, there are times when we need to regulate a species out in the middle of nowhere. Take bears and the damage they do to timber for example.
Right, which brings us back to damage control.
The only things I disagree with Houndhunter on is that recreational trappers are doing it to just to kill animals or make money. I also disagree with his statement that trapping is not a survival skill, when it is a means to provide you with food and clothing.
I agree and by reading your posts in the past I realize that you know this as well. My post on your quote was more for the uninitiated.
Post by: Houndhunter on April 04, 2008, 04:32:01 PM
trappers arnt around today for teaching survival and passing on a tradition to show people how it used to be
I trap because i like it, keeps the predators down, brings up #'s of delicate animals such as grouse or rabbits, and helps out the overal eco system
Post by: billythekidrock on April 04, 2008, 04:44:38 PM
I trap because i like it, keeps the predators down, brings up #'s of delicate animals such as grouse or rabbits, and helps out the overal eco system
So you passed your test? When and where did you take it? I read the material, but never set up a test. Too hard to get any help from F&G.
Post by: tlbradford on April 04, 2008, 05:04:01 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on April 04, 2008, 05:32:32 PM
no worrys, we'll have to crack open a cold one sometime :brew:
Post by: M_ray on April 04, 2008, 05:43:20 PM
Quote
no worrys, we'll have to crack open a cold one sometime
You can't do that? your profile say's you're only 17! I know I never drank a beer when I was 17! ;)
Post by: popeshawnpaul on April 04, 2008, 05:48:16 PM
Post by: M_ray on April 04, 2008, 05:53:24 PM
Ok you got me :sry:
Post by: popeshawnpaul on April 04, 2008, 06:04:54 PM
Post by: Outfitter on April 04, 2008, 06:19:51 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on April 04, 2008, 06:22:56 PM
Shawn
Post by: groundhog on April 07, 2008, 09:46:32 AM
If you read my original post I nicely asked for opinions from both sides of the subject on feeding big game. I figured this was a good cross section of hunters and I respect your opinions on a subject that concerns me. I didn't expect to be attacked by anyone.
Outdoorguy- I never mentioned baiting or complained about lack of game or not harvesting animals. I pass on alot of animals every year and my freezer is as full as I want it. You said I was a game hog because I am concerned about the welfare of our wildlife??? You can go screw yourself.
As for the Indians the only way to solve that problem is to convince them to self regulate.
For the record for the rest of you guys
.
I think we all need to stick together as much as possible. There is plenty of room for different opinions. If we start fightin amongst ourselves we are playing right in to the antis plan. Divide and conquer.
IMO folks should be more supportive of a persons weapon of choice. All three are just as deadly and effective (or ineffective) in the right (or wrong) persons hands. It is all about knowing your range and ability. Folks need to respect others choice of weapon and not point fingers and give the Antis any ideas or ammunition.
On baiting. I voted against the bear bait ban and I think baiting bears was a better way to selectively manage bear. Baiting Deer and Elk is not my cup of tea but I guess to each his own. I knew it was legal but I didn't think many people were doing it.....
I also voted against the outlaw of hounds for Bear and Cougar. Houndsman will generally only take large males or mature animals and in my opinion hounds were a better way to selectively manage. That being said I respect Robodads opinion and thoughts on the subject of baiting and hounds.
Ya know I got fed up a few years ago and started writing letters to the WDFW about subjects that concern me. Guess what?? They actually listen!!! The biologist that I have been in touch with are good guys that are concerned about the welfare of our wildlife. Like I said before they actually listen. The reason for my original post is that I didn't want to suggest something without thinking it through and hearing from both sides on the subject. I am still not sure on the idea to ban the private feeding of big game. I guess the verdict is still out but it seems that most folks don't feel there is a problem.
This is a good site and I think it is possible that as a group we could accomplish alot by banning together to make good rational suggestions to the WDFW. We will never accomplish a thing if all we do is complain and point fingers and fight amongst each other like a bunch of school kids......
Post by: Guy on April 10, 2008, 10:36:40 AM
Problem is - it's already not natural. We built cities and developed farmlands in the natural wintering grounds... I don't mind feeding the critters to make up for that and help ensure we have game to hunt in the fall.
Are we feeding the Methow deer herd? What was the real mortality up there this winter? Would more have survived if there had been a better feeding program.
I dunno. No game biologist here, but I do know that there are mule deer browsing in my front yard here in Wenatchee in the winter. I need to plant something they like more...
Regards, Guy
Post by: billythekidrock on April 10, 2008, 04:27:16 PM
Quote
Problem is - it's already not natural. We built cities and developed farmlands in the natural wintering grounds... I don't mind feeding the critters to make up for that and help ensure we have game to hunt in the fall.
So true. Humans have screwed up nature so bad that it can't repair it's self or level out without more human intervention.
In the old days if a cougar ran out of food in the mountains it came to the lowlands for deer and elk. If there were no deer or elk in the lowlands the cougar would starve. Predators adapt and now the lowlands are so full of cattle/sheep/dogs/cats that the cougar will not starve.
So in a sense we are already feeding big game animals.. :chuckle:
Post by: bbarnes on May 12, 2008, 10:29:36 PM