Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Other Big Game => Topic started by: gramps on February 19, 2010, 07:19:51 AM
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I am really disappointed with the bullet performance. I have used Hornady Interlocks for many years and have taken game with a 257 Wby, ’06, 300 WinMag, 338 WinMag with good bullet performance. Everyone has an idea for the perfect wine, woman, song or bullet ...I just have had good results in the with this one. This cat was shot with a 100 gr. Hornady BTSP Interlock at 2800 ft/sec. The entrance hole was 1”+ and the exit was 5 or 6 holes caused by fragments. I am not complaining...It did the job, but I have not had a bullet break up like that. It did hit a rib on the way in, however. The body was only 7 or 8 inches wide or deep w/respect to bullet travel. Nothing compared to a deer. The important fact is that the bullet took our both lungs and that is all that we need.
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i have been seeing more and more that germans tend to are more about what bullet they are shooting as opposed to americans who think more towards a catridge. its good to see americans(many on this site) take the time to see just how the bullet did.
nosler partition.
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Definitely not good. I wouldn't be using that bullet on deer, or anything else, except for coyotes. Yes it did kill the cougar, but look at the lack of a good blood trail. If the bullet had stayed together and made an exit hole, there probably would have been a lot of blood. Luckily your cat only made it 25 yards.
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Thats how most of my hornadys were in my 300 and 308 norma mag. I was shooting the spire point 180 grain at 3,000 plus. They would disinigrate like that. Killed em'dead but I didnt like that so I started using the Hornady interbonds instead. Havent had that problem since. Im sold on bonded bullets ;)
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I can tell ya from my limited experience (one cougar down) that a 12 guage slug just under the eye puts em down immediately even at a dead run toward ya!! ;)
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I've shot Hornaday interlocks forever as well, but last year I shot a coyote with my 7mm-08 loaded with 140 gr. interlocks and when the bullet went through his shoulder it flat disappeared, no exit wound just disintegrated. This year i'm going to play with either Hornaday Interbonds or Nosler Accubonds. I think the Accubond is a far superior bullet, but it has a far superior price as well
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Ha, I didnt realize that 300 grns of lead hitting you in the face at 1000 fps would have very much stopping power ;)
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well...i didnt expect much from the 5 rounds for 5$ at walmart 12 g slugs...but turns out...they kill stuff!
the trick is wait til the cat is about 10 feet from ya so ya dont lose much velocity...lol
Im sorry to be a smart arse here brother... Ive been hunting all my life... always been really happy with my bullet performance... only lost one animal that my gun connected on and that was a bad shot placement issue... only really use 3 guns (300 win mag, 444, or 12 guage) and I can tell ya what bullet I use... the cheapest box that walmart has behind the counter in the biggest grain they have!
Im not discounting the differences between the bullets.. you boys know 10,000 times what I know there... guess Im just a cartridge guy over bullet performance guy... I tend to go a lil big for the game...and tend to lose a little meat but never lose animals...
its all technique though!
dave
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At 10 feet away, you could almost take them out with wadding only! :chuckle:
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gramps - time to switch to a interbond or a nosler accubond.
I have had really good bullet performance from .270 shooting a 140 grain nosler accubond. almost 100% bullet retention on a deer I shot in 2007. I was very impressed. 80 yard shot chono'd at 2850.
It sucks that we have to shoot an animal to find out how well the bullet retains weight.
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Gramps, to me that is just fine bullet performance at the range you shot, for the animal you were hunting. That bullet break-up is going to shred internal organs and kill that cat dead as a doornail, faster than a through and through, but at the cost of having less of a blood trail. You would have had good expansion and a nice exit wound if your shot was a little longer or you did not hit a rib. Just my opinion on how I personally want a bullet to perform.
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Bonded bullets are the way to go in my experience. I like seeing a large exit hole on my game shot at closer range and like to find the bullet mushroomed out and stuck in the hide on the opposite side on longer shots.. :twocents:
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Two personal observations........ One, cats can take a substantial amount of punishment from a high caliber weapon. Anecdotally I'd say they have tougher stronger meat/muscle than the average animal. Unless you are popping them in the soft spots, you won't be as likely to get an exit. In other words their muscle is lean and mean. Secondly, I also like Hornady interlocks/interbonds for big game.
you get exactly what kimberrich just said.
I like seeing a large exit hole on my game shot at closer range and like to find the bullet mushroomed out and stuck in the hide on the opposite side on longer shots..
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:twocents:
A 100 grain BTSP out of a .243 killed a mule deer directly in his tracks this year at 80 yards, and/but the bullet did not exit. It did come apart and it did do some damage to the meat...but that little buck was DRT.
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I agree with what's been said. Personally, I've had good luck with innerlocks holding a tight group at the range, but have heard too many stories that they aren't too good of a preformer on animals. A few years later the innerbond came out, and preformed well, as any other bonded bullet on big game animals. It's very hard in my opinion to beat any bonded bullet out of a large bore rifle. As for the smaller calibers, the v-max or ballistic tip bullets premorm very well on the larger animals, as they don't rely as much on the energy to do the killing, but the massive fragmentation. I once put two 50gr. ballistic tips out of my 22-250 right behind the shoulder of a cougar at 150 yds. Shots were 2 inches apart on the entry, and there was a 4" combined exit hole. That cat took another one in the middle of the back running up hill before perishing 300 yards away. They are a TOUGH animal.
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I wouldn't condemn your round immediately, Gramps.
I think the fragmentation may have had alot to do with the range and velocity. The bullet was going as fast as it was going to go, hit a rib, the rest is history. Disappointing that it fragemented, sure, but I don't blame it, that's alot of stress.
As to Cougars. They're not "tough" as in, like a cape buffalo. They're actually thin skinned and pretty easy to punch through. But they're very very VERY hard to shut off. They're electric. They're very adrenalin driven, and can run for a long time on fumes. Doesn't surprise me at all that it kept going for awhile.
Look at the stories on my Call-in page. VERY FEW Cougars fell down on the spot. They got good and tore up, even from 223's and the like, but almost none of them fell down. LongTat shot one in the face with a slug... well duh! And I shot one in the throat with a 243wssm doing 3800 +, duh again. But otherwise, they go for a while, even stone dead they run for a ways!
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I have shot many deer and a Elk with the 150 interlock from my 30-06. I usually find the bullet pushing threw on the other side, intact. My family has used the 100gr interlock from our .243 to drop deer in their tracks. We have had good luck with the Interlock holding together. I would not count it out so easily. Once again, great Cat!
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Thank you all for the comments. This has been interesting. Several of you mentioned the close range...I think that was as much as anything. This is the closest I have every shot anything. There is a possiblity that there was a branch or brush in the line of fire. I will check that next week.
I am gonna stick with the interlocks for a couple reasons even tho' I think the bonded ammo is better from a techinical point of view. However, with the interlocks, I have had two one shot kill strings of 7 animals and 6 animals and the cat make 3 on a new string and I have a modest supply on hand. We won't get into any of the 'Oh wait, I need to reload' ordeals...but I have had several.
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like said, for light game yotes/cats that is still fine i don't like the horn's for that when i tried some that is what i did not like about them they always seem to frag.
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I'm going to bite the bullet and put in my 2 cents. When I shot "Grandma cougar" last year, I didn't own a cal that I would consider good for cats,and other predators. (I now hunt with a savage 16flss in 243 and shoot a 85grn Barnes TSX BT with 45 grns of IMR4831 at 3200 fps.) I used a gun I call my "Screamer." It's a left handed 7mmSTW Rem BDL on a Brown precision stock. I built it up soon after Layne Simpson" article about the 7mmSTW appeared in the 1989 May issue of Shooting Times. I have used Nosler Partitions, Ballistic Tip, Barnes X, X Boat-tales, moly-coated Triple-Shock X bullets, and now 140 grn Triple-Shock boat-tail shooting at 3400 fps. it is a given that a top end bullet must be used at these speeds. It's a must. Even the improved Nosler Ballistic Tip could not hold up. (moly-coated Ballistic-tipped did shoot flatter and 100fps faster)
I shot the cougar at 25 yrds. Straight on, missing the front of the chest and hitting the shoulder. My entry wound was the size of the bullet, The bullet then blew through heavy shoulder bone and the exit hole was the size of a dime. The bullet did just as needed. "Grandma" used up whatever nine lives she had left in a 75 to 100 yards plunge down a very steep side hill.
Lessons learned: Go with top end bullets, you hunt a life time for that 1 shot 1 chance that may never come your way again.
Snag Point
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Very ironic snag point. I saved that same article and used it when putting together my 7stw years ago. Back then, researching a caliber was a lot more difficult than it is now days. :)
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Hey MtnMuley,
That is interesting. Had to neck down 8mm rem brass too, all part of the fun of shooting such a overbore setup. But wow can it shoot. Now the WSM's shoot almost as fast, and the cartridge is not 3 3/4 inches long.
Snag Point
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Never shot a cougar so I can't really comment on them directly. I have shot a lot of interlocks and am not a big fan. Have had similiar results with bullets exploding. Have been in 2 situations where friends have shot animals (elk and mule deer) and had the interlocks not do the job. Good shot placement just bad terminal performance. Overall I would almost always prefer to have a bonded or a solid that can break bone, penetrate through vitals and exit. 2 holes IMO is always preferable.... entry 2x caliber and exit bout the size of a handball. Lots of blood.
Bullet performance is where the rubber meets the road. I really don't want anything (varmnits excluded) where I can't punch through a shoulder w/ a quartering toward me shot and still know the bullet will plow through the vitals.
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I have seen hundreds of cougars taken, from .22 rimfires to .300 Ultramags, muzzleloaders, pistols, you name it.
The only thing that couldn't get the job done was an old bow that shot so slow with arrows that were so dull that the arrows were bouncing off the cat, no joking, true story. :bash:
Fortunately I had another archer along who had killed his cat a few days before, he loaned his recurve bow to the now rattled hunter who practiced on a stump and then killed the cat with one good arrow. :chuckle:
In my experience cougar are relatively easy to kill with about any weapon. Like any other animal, the shot needs to be placed correctly.
I lean heavily in favor of the Barnes triple shock for anything, except varnmints which are funner with an exploding bullet.
