Post by: chrisb on March 29, 2010, 08:07:53 PM
What am I not understanding?
Post by: Bofire on March 29, 2010, 08:16:49 PM
2 higher bullet speed is not everything
3 the 308 has probably had more research put into it for long range work than any other cartridge
4 probably the most widely used sniper cartridge in the world
5 consistency is what counts for long range work, not 2-400fps.
6 I do not know many people who would reccomend the 08 over the 06, just based on cartridge.
7 you are much more likely to find a good buy on a set up 308 than 06, just cause there are so many.
there hope I helped.
Carl :chuckle:
Post by: chrisb on March 29, 2010, 08:18:35 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on March 29, 2010, 08:21:29 PM
Post by: 44 Flattop on March 29, 2010, 09:37:35 PM
My assumption is that the 30-06 would be better for long range b/c it carries a larger powder charge behind it.Your assumption is correct. The case is longer, holds more powder for the same bullet weight and therefore has higher velocity. The difference between the two calibers is 'maybe' 50 yards, 75 at most.
What am I not understanding?
I'm really not sure who would have made such recommendation, certainly not anyone who has any understanding of ballistics.
44
Post by: Thenewguy on March 29, 2010, 09:41:01 PM
My assumption is that the 30-06 would be better for long range b/c it carries a larger powder charge behind it.Your assumption is correct. The case is longer, holds more powder for the same bullet weight and therefore has higher velocity. The difference between the two calibers is 'maybe' 50 yards, 75 at most.
What am I not understanding?
I'm really not sure who would have made such recommendation, certainly not anyone who has any understanding of ballistics.
44
Here we go...
Post by: chrisb on March 29, 2010, 09:59:54 PM
And I'm not a reloader so i'm really only concerned with the ballistics of readily available factory ammo. I'm a big fan of Remington Core-Lokt if that helps the discussion any.
Post by: ADAMS on March 29, 2010, 10:02:41 PM
For reasons I am unable to articulate, a shorter powder column appears to be advantageous for accuracy.
Oh, and for the record, that was your 308th post.
Post by: chrisb on March 29, 2010, 10:03:46 PM
"So why is it then that the 308 is recommended for long range (300+yds) over the 30-06 by so many?"
For reasons I am unable to articulate, a shorter powder column appears to be advantageous for accuracy.
but shouldn't the 30-06 be able to reach out further?
Post by: ADAMS on March 29, 2010, 10:12:47 PM
Again, I understand that a shorter powder column is advantageous to accuracy and I wish I could explain why. There are some very knowledgeable people here who can hopefully shed some more light on the issue.
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2010, 10:19:17 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 29, 2010, 10:51:47 PM
The 30-06 shoots a .30 caliber bullet faster than an equivalent bullet from a .308: about 150 feet per second more. Whether or not that matters to you depends on what you are shooting and at what distances. 99 percent of the hunting population would find either caliber adequate.
Google "308 30-06 accuracy" and check back in a year after you've read up on the debate :chuckle:
Post by: BigGoonTuna on March 29, 2010, 11:19:09 PM
7 you are much more likely to find a good buy on a set up 308 than 06, just cause there are so many.i think the opposite is true, mainly since the '06 had about a 50 year head start on the 308. i very rarely see used .308s on the racks...but the '06 is a dime a dozen.
i think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice. no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.
Quote from: bobcat
The 30-06 is better than the 308 at longer ranges in the same way that the 300 Win. Mag. is better than the 30-06 at longer ranges. More velocity.accurate and flat shooting don't have to go together. it may be *easier* to shoot a caliber with a flat trajectory, but accuracy is being able to put the bullet where you want it. as an example, the .45-70 may have the trajectory of a slingshot, but it is a very accurate caliber, despite velocities under 2000fps.
Post by: littlemac on March 29, 2010, 11:26:33 PM
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/308_winchester.html (http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/308_winchester.html)
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/30_06.html (http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/30_06.html)
Post by: bobcat on March 29, 2010, 11:28:56 PM
I think Bofire meant it was easier to find a 308 that was "set up" for long range shooting. Not necessarily a hunting rifle.
Post by: AWS on March 29, 2010, 11:30:29 PM
AWS
Post by: chef bama on March 30, 2010, 12:19:35 AM
(says .308 more accurate, seems plausible)
I got a Savage .308 at a pawnshop for half what the 30-06's were going for. Pawn shop guy said because in our area everybody wanted an '06 and not a 308.
Post by: Viszla on March 30, 2010, 08:09:46 AM
Quote
think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice. no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.
You can shoot 7.62x51 in a 308?? If you can that is nice to know as all my rifles are 308.
Post by: Bob33 on March 30, 2010, 08:31:50 AM
308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone's 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell's .308 vs 7.62x51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.
Post by: chrisb on March 30, 2010, 09:51:17 AM
Good to know that i can get surplus 7.62 for my 308 now as well.
Post by: ADAMS on March 30, 2010, 11:25:49 AM
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_vs_30-06.html (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_vs_30-06.html)
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp (http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp)
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2010, 11:29:36 AM
Quote
Outside of competitive shooting, the difference between these two
cartridges is miniscule.
Post by: BigGoonTuna on March 30, 2010, 07:24:58 PM
yep, just don't shoot 308 in a 7.62x51 chambered rifle(308 has a higher pressure spec IIRC).Quotethink the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice. no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.
You can shoot 7.62x51 in a 308?? If you can that is nice to know as all my rifles are 308.
i think we're splitting hairs comparing the 308 and 30/06. best way to decide is to find the gun you want and compare the 308 and 30/06 models. then go home with the one with the nicer piece of walnut :IBCOOL:
Post by: BPturkeys on March 30, 2010, 07:37:32 PM
Post by: Curly on March 30, 2010, 07:51:07 PM
One of the elk I shot with my .300 Win mag thought he was shot with a .300RUM. :chuckle:
Post by: Bofire on March 30, 2010, 07:51:36 PM
Carl
Post by: Bob33 on March 30, 2010, 08:02:17 PM
I don't believe the 308 is "inherently" that much more accurate than the 30-06.That is true. The operative question is how much more is "that much more"? It is probably measured in a few inches at 1000 yards. However, if you are a hunter the question is not how well you can shoot at 1000 yards. The 30-06's increased velocity will result in less drop, and more retained energy at distances that you should be more concerned about like 300 to 500 yards. That gives it a leg up as a hunting rifle, in my opinion. If you like to shoot lots, the 308 will be cheaper. If you want to punch paper at 1000 yards, the 308 might give you a slightly smaller group. If you are extremely recoil sensitive, the 308 has less recoil. Other than that, go for the 30-06 or flip a coin.
Post by: Bofire on March 30, 2010, 08:11:01 PM
seee about 3hunnert er so the blend kicks in and the 308 speeds up oh about 247 fps er so. she runs about the same out to bout 600 er so then the 06 catches on up see? so youse need a couple range finders.
so, when them elks see that 30 callybur bullut comin at em they time it, an iffn its a 06 they just fall over and die, if its a 308 they wait until it misses em.
BUT iffn its a MAGNUM, they die at the camp fire!
hope youse is all eddycated up now
Carl
Post by: duckaholic on March 30, 2010, 08:46:02 PM
i think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice. no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.
i thought that the m1-grand was in 30-06, am i wrong? :dunno:
Post by: chrisb on March 30, 2010, 08:48:03 PM
i think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice. no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.
i thought that the m1-grand was in 30-06, am i wrong? :dunno:
You are not wrong there.
Post by: duckaholic on March 30, 2010, 08:54:57 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on March 30, 2010, 09:47:58 PM
308 = short action, less powder, less velocity, less recoil...
308 is so popular for long range competition because its the "Chevy 350" of the shooting world. Parts are cheap, quality load info is easily attainable, mil surplus brass is cheap, mil surplus ammo is cheap, and did I mention the military uses them? :rolleyes:
There's quite a few people out there shooting 30-06 in long range rifle competitions, and the caliber really shines when you handload for it, or even go with an Ackley verson... You can build the bigger calibers off the long action (300 winmag, 7 WSM, and other magnum calibers), while you can't off the 308 short action (but you can load some sweet short action calibers too like the 6.5x47 lapua, 243, or any other version of a 6.5/6 mm caliber).
Velocity has VERY little to do with accuracy. Sure you don't have to dial in as much scope adjustment, but with as long as the bullet is staying super-sonic at the range and has an equal ballistic Coefficient value as a flatter caliber, it will be just as accurate provided all other factors equal...
Michael
Post by: BigGoonTuna on March 30, 2010, 10:47:32 PM
so dose that mean that there is more than one "big" center fire rifle that is a military round? (just thought i would point that out seems how it wasn't brought up)it is, but it's not so cheap to shoot any more, being that most of the surplus has dried up. .308 is still an official nato caliber, while the 30/06 is militarily obsolete.