Post by: Snapshot on March 30, 2010, 11:42:20 AM
People are constantly complaining that they didn't know what the WDFW was doing until it was too late to voice their opinion. If they really want to be informed instead of just wanting to complain, then they should get on the department's email list to receive bulletins about what is going on. It isn't hard to do online or with a phone call. Lots of what you get is only worth deleting but some is worth knowing about.
For example, people are ragging on not having input on the permit changes, which by the way I think stink. Because I am on the email list I heard about the public meetings that were scheduled in the summertime in seven cities across the state where the proposals were introduced; I went to the one in my region and they got to hear me tell them what I thought of it. That meeting was in Tacoma and there were only a few dozen people there. In a major urban center there should have been many more. It just seems too few care to get involved but plenty are ready and willing to complain.
Climbing down now...
Have a great day and good luck with the draws. I don't think I'll be playing the permit game this year; my personal little protest (which will increase someone else's odds).
Post by: Woodchuck on March 30, 2010, 11:48:12 AM
Post by: 6x6in6 on March 30, 2010, 11:49:43 AM
well.....i am on the e-mail list and it seems i only get selective ones, i knew nothing of the proposed changes until about 6 weeks ago :dunno:Same.
Post by: grundy53 on March 30, 2010, 11:52:48 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on March 30, 2010, 11:54:25 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on March 30, 2010, 11:58:23 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2010, 12:26:13 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on March 30, 2010, 12:50:32 PM
well.....i am on the e-mail list and it seems i only get selective ones, i knew nothing of the proposed changes until about 6 weeks ago :dunno:Same.
+ 1
Post by: Curly on March 30, 2010, 01:21:18 PM
I did go to the commission meeting this month, but I was really sick and didn't feel like getting up to speak because of the pounding headache and sore throat I had. But even if I had gotten up to say my thoughts, I felt like it was already too late for WDFW to change course based on what the staff was saying.
Post by: whacker1 on March 30, 2010, 01:24:58 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 30, 2010, 03:33:59 PM
:dunno:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/development.html#2010_game_regs (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/development.html#2010_game_regs)
Quote
Game Regulations for 2010
The Department is considering rule making for the following: deer and elk seasons and permits; cougar permits; black bear seasons and permits; mountain goat, bighorn sheep, and moose permits; raffle and auction rules and fees; bighorn sheep marking rules; turkey seasons and permits; landowner hunting permit program; deer and elk area boundaries; and hunting equipment rules.
CR-101 - filed as WSR 09-24-111 on December 2, 2009
Invitation to discuss rules on this subject
CR-102 - filed as WSR 10-04-125 on February 3, 2010 (see revisions below)
Notice and opportunity to comment on this current rule-making proposal
March 5, 2010 Revisions to Proposed Rule Changes
These revisions to the WACs that were proposed with the CR-102 are very minor. The Department made changes to correct grammar and punctuation and to add penalty language to each WAC.
Public Comment Period:
A public hearing will take place at 8:00 a.m. on March 12-13, 2010
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
First Floor Room 172
1111 Washington St. SE
Olympia, WA 98504
Post by: jackelope on March 30, 2010, 03:35:39 PM
Post by: colockumelk on March 30, 2010, 04:12:33 PM
Ya seriously they dont care. These meetings are a formailty thats required by law. The decisions were made several years ago behind closed doors.
They actually do care, BUT only when we let them know about it when we're not happy. Then unfortunately they do a knee jerk decision that is only a band-aid to the problem instead of something more permanent to fix it. I think if they listened to the bio's things would go alot better. I know our local bio is a really good guy and from what it seems the WDFW doesn't listen to him. Like your name says WDFW-SUX
Post by: colockumelk on March 30, 2010, 04:19:56 PM
If the WDFW does such a great job then answer me this: The WDFW micro-manages all of the game animals in the state of WA except one. The one game animal they don't do anything with other than gather harvest data is the Turkey. The turkey is by FAR the most successfull game animal to be re-introduced into WA.
The problem is, is that our Commission is made up of people who don't know what they're doing. They are not professional game managers. They are not dedicated hunters, conservationists, former wildlife bio's, former Game Wardens. Nothing they are newbies in charge of running our game management. They are WAY, WAY , WAY over their heads. So of course everything is going to be mismanaged. Everything the WDFW touches is ruined.
****DISCLAIMER****
When I say WDFW I mean the commission, and the GMAC. I don't mean the bio's or the wardens. There are some extremely professional people who are dedicated to their job and do an outstanding job especially with who they have to work for. It is not the WDFW that is the problem it is the men and women at the top.
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
The turkey is by FAR the most successfull game animal to be re-introduced into WA.
Kinda off topic, but why do you say RE-introduced ??? As far as I know turkeys are not native in this state.
Post by: billythekidrock on March 30, 2010, 04:31:30 PM
well.....i am on the e-mail list and it seems i only get selective ones, i knew nothing of the proposed changes until about 6 weeks ago :dunno:
I feel the same.
I get some and at other times I see them posted here and "run" to my inbox only to find out that I didn't get it. I think alot of them are random like the surveys, especially when they are asking for input.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 30, 2010, 04:33:18 PM
I think its funny when people say that the WDFW does a pretty good job considering what they have to work with. These people I think are very optimistic and very NAIVE. So for those people I have a question. If the WDFW is so good then why is it that the Mule Deer in Central Washington are doing so poorly. Why has the Colockum elk herd continued to go down hill? If the WDFW is does such a good job then why is it that despite the fact that we have so many hunters and fisherman compared to other states the WDFW can't properly manage their budget? If the WDFW does such a good job then why to they pay farmers to plant CRP but don't enforce the farmers to ensure that they let us hunt their property. Why do they allow the Kapowsin Tree farm etc to charge hunters user fees?
If the WDFW does such a great job then answer me this: The WDFW micro-manages all of the game animals in the state of WA except one. The one game animal they don't do anything with other than gather harvest data is the Turkey. The turkey is by FAR the most successfull game animal to be re-introduced into WA.
The problem is, is that our Commission is made up of people who don't know what they're doing. They are not professional game managers. They are not dedicated hunters, conservationists, former wildlife bio's, former Game Wardens. Nothing they are newbies in charge of running our game management. They are WAY, WAY , WAY over their heads. So of course everything is going to be mismanaged. Everything the WDFW touches is ruined.
****DISCLAIMER****
When I say WDFW I mean the commission, and the GMAC. I don't mean the bio's or the wardens. There are some extremely professional people who are dedicated to their job and do an outstanding job especially with who they have to work for. It is not the WDFW that is the problem it is the men and women at the top.
Wdfw doesn't pay farmers to put their land in CRP the federal government does. And isn't the Kapowsin Tree Farm private like Weyerhauser land. Why shouldn't they be able to do what they want with their land?
Post by: KillBilly on March 30, 2010, 05:58:57 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 30, 2010, 06:07:53 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on March 30, 2010, 06:11:37 PM
I believe I get every news release they put out, by email, but I sure don't recall anything specifically listing the changes to the special permit system. If they really wanted people's input on it they should have notified us of the proposed changes and then asked for feedback. They did not do that until February and by then it was too late. Look at all the time and money they've already had to have spent on getting this complicated new system up and running. How much more are they having to pay Outdoor Central for their services? Why not just keep the drawing as simple as possible? Why does Washington State have to have the most complicated hunting permit system in the country? :dunno:
I agree. I would have never "agreed" to losing the Q bull permit, or to have 7 categories for permits, or ......or ..... :bash:
Post by: Curly on March 30, 2010, 06:33:41 PM
They send out news releases all the time about upcoming things.........this was not in any news release until this year. I wonder why........ :rolleyes:
Post by: Little Dave on March 30, 2010, 06:38:29 PM
well.....i am on the e-mail list and it seems i only get selective ones, i knew nothing of the proposed changes until about 6 weeks ago :dunno:
That might be the problem. It isn't list. It's lists.
There a bunch of different subscription options.
Here's the place where you subscribe:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/lists/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/lists/)
The options are:
All Information
or any one of these:
News Releases & Weekender Report
Regulation Updates
Commission Announcements
Employment Opportunities
Crossing Paths News Notes
Land Line News Notes
Fish & Wildlife Planner Newsletter (urban planning)
Post by: winshooter88 on March 30, 2010, 09:13:28 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on March 30, 2010, 09:17:15 PM
Btkr, what quality bull permit are you talking about losing?
Quinault Bull
Post by: KillBilly on March 31, 2010, 08:47:47 AM
Just a few I found on this site. It has been a topic for some time now.
January 15th
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,42946.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,42946.0.html)
March 5th
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,45921.msg555559.html#msg555559 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,45921.msg555559.html#msg555559)
March 11th
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,46307.msg559995.html#msg559995 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,46307.msg559995.html#msg559995)
Post by: Snapshot on March 31, 2010, 12:33:54 PM
I don't think they do such a bang-up job in that there is alot of room for improvement. As is there a lot of room for improvement for the hunters who say they didn't know what was going on. I went to the meeting last August and all around the room were displays, each stating a "problem" that they had identified based on input from both the biologists and members of the public. They had 'think-tanked' some possible solutions for each problem, usually four or five possibilities and at these meetings they asked the members of the public who showed up to give their feedback on the various so-called solutions.
I have attending these mid-summer meetings for about the past ten years running. It is no secret that they have them. After this season setting package gets rubber stamped next month in Wenatchee they will start processing the stuff they heard this year and go through the same routine this summer. If you want to get involved in it, you can.
As for deer in central Washington; stop killing does and they'll rebound. Not a popular thing, but it would help the deer population.
Aside from the tribal issue which the state is helpless in doing anything about, Colockum elk are hurting because some years back the DNR cut much of the timber that had provided escapement. And because they won't close the roads; also not popular but it would be effective.
Post by: bobcat on March 31, 2010, 01:12:24 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on March 31, 2010, 04:11:14 PM
Again, I am on their email list and I get all the news releases they put out. But as I said there was nothing on the big change in the permit system this year. At least nothing that revealed the drastic changes that would be made. I did know there was going to be a separate pool for antlerless permits, and I didn't think that was a real big deal. But nothing was said about the other additional pools they would be adding: youth, senior, disabled hunter, quality, master hunter, 2nd deer tag. And, nothing was known about the stupid and extremely unfair idea of putting people's points in every one of the new categories, categories in which the points hadn't been earned. This may have been talked about at a meeting but how many people actually have time to go to those meetings? They're usually on a Friday and could be anywhere in the state. The WDFW knows that very few members of the general public attends those meetings. There is no excuse for them not making the proposed changes more available for the public to see and to comment on. They have a website, all they had to do is put it on there, just like they FINALLY did this past February. Or, how about this, somebody from the WDFW could actually come on this website and post important information such as that. Or does that just make too much sense? What about the GMAC? If they represent the hunters of this state why couldn't they have gotten the word out? Don't any of them ever log on to this website? How about an article in the newspapers? So many options, but we got nothing. Except a meeting last summer that nobody knows about and very few people would be able to attend even if they did. In these modern times with the internet and other technology it's just unbelievable that they couldn't make this information available to the public sooner than 2 months before the proposal was to be officially adopted by the Fish & Wildlife Commission. I have to believe that they intentionally kept this from the public, in fact there is no doubt in my mind.
Absolutely! Especially about the GMAC, and I would take that a step further and include the MHAG to the list of groups that should be notifying and updating it's hunters.
Post by: Snapshot on April 01, 2010, 08:33:01 AM
Post by: Snapshot on April 02, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
The meeting I went to was on a week night around 6 PM in Tacoma, and that was one of about seven cities (Spokane, Vancouver, Aberdeen, Yakima, Wenatchee, etc) they held the meetings in over the course of a couple of weeks. I have also seen notices of such meetings in the city newspaper in the sports section. I am not a stauch defender of everything the WDFW does, but dang it people, you cannot have your heads in the sand and then complain that you didn't know what was going on. If you want to know what is going on, you can find out.
Post by: bobcat on April 02, 2010, 03:34:52 PM
It was written: "This may have been talked about at a meeting but how many people actually have time to go to those meetings? They're usually on a Friday and could be anywhere in the state."
The meeting I went to was on a week night around 6 PM in Tacoma, and that was one of about seven cities (Spokane, Vancouver, Aberdeen, Yakima, Wenatchee, etc) they held the meetings in over the course of a couple of weeks. I have also seen notices of such meetings in the city newspaper in the sports section. I am not a stauch defender of everything the WDFW does, but dang it people, you cannot have your heads in the sand and then complain that you didn't know what was going on. If you want to know what is going on, you can find out.
:bs:
It would have been simple for the WDFW to put a notice on their website with all the changes they were considering and to send out a news release by email. They did not do so until 2 months ago. If people would have known the magnitude of the changes, perhaps more people would have taken the time to go to the meetings. I know I would have. Instead, the WDFW kept everything from the public. And apparently, so did the GMAC.
Post by: bobcat on April 02, 2010, 03:35:55 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 02, 2010, 03:56:40 PM
Also, last summer, if you knew about all the changes, why didn't YOU post about it on this board, and encourage people to write letters and go to meetings?:yeah:
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 02, 2010, 04:15:07 PM
Post by: Snapshot on April 02, 2010, 07:14:26 PM
About a dozen years ago I decided to join a couple of state organizations, roll my sleeves up and help out any way I could. The 'old timers' I met then, the one's who had been fighting to improve hunting opportunity for twenty years, talked of hunter apathy and I would think to myself, "That can't be so; how could hunters not want to get into the trenches and try to have a positive effect on the processes that affect our way of life." Well, I am beginning to understand what they meant. Plenty talk the talk but few walk the walk.
I'm not trying to single out individuals here on the H-W.com. The same level of (with all due respect) ignorance is being demonstrated at other websites, at archery shoots and wherever folks are talking about hunting; the workplace, the tavern, etc.
A lot of people are fed up with the crap we put up with in this state. The tribal situation for example. My neighbors are going to Idaho this year because they've had enough; that small group alone, three people, will take two thousand bucks to another state. And they aren't the only ones... If I could afford to go elsewhere I would...
Post by: bobcat on April 02, 2010, 07:21:23 PM
We don't expect to be "spoonfed." As I said, it would have been simple enough for the WDFW to put something more prominent up on their website about the changes. Why do they even bother to post it 2 months ago and say that they are giving the public an opportunity to comment on it, when the proposal is surely already a done deal ???
So exactly which state organizations did you join?
Post by: Snapshot on April 02, 2010, 08:04:28 PM
I could be wrong about when I first heard people started complaining to the department about the permit system; I remember them complaining that they didn't like loosing their bull points, for example, if they drew a cow tag. Maybe it was during the three-year package decision meeting in April 2009. But as you know by the time that meeting rolled around the commission had heard from the public and the WDFW at the March public input meeting and it was too late to do anything but rule on the proposals that were in front of them. If that was the case, the commission/department would have told the folks that they could look to do something next year.
The first time I saw the RESULT of their work on changing the permits was at the Western Washington Sportsmen's show at the end of January, where they were handing out full color tri-folds espousing the virtues of their new system. I was surprised by where it landed (I don't think its fair either), but not being one who looks forward to one day having to have to hunt the "king's deer", I don't pay too much attention to permits and have always seen it as merely a way to give a few more dollars to wildlife conservation.
-BS ...uh no, DS
Post by: bobcat on April 02, 2010, 08:23:56 PM
People will complain no matter how the permit system works. But for the WDFW to change it in a way that makes it much more complicated and to distribute the points to all the new categories in a manner that is not even close to being fair, doesn't make sense. They were getting some complaints before, which were mostly unfounded. Now they will be getting 10 times more complaints I am sure. And many of these will now be legitimate (in my opinion.) They would have been much better off to just leave it the way it was and double or triple the price of an application.
People that complained about the system because they could not draw a permit were unjustified in doing so. It was just fine the way it was. If they wanted to draw a permit they should have applied for less popular hunts. With the changes that are being made, the popular buck and bull permits will be no easier to draw, and there's a very good chance many of them will be more difficult.
It's nice that you don't mind donating your money to the WDFW for "wildife conservation." That's the same way I have always thought of it as well. But look at how much money they have surely wasted in getting this new system up and running. And how much more are they having to pay Outdoor Central every time there is a drawing?
Post by: Curly on April 02, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
Quote
The first time I saw the RESULT of their work on changing the permits was at the Western Washington Sportsmen's show at the end of January, where they were handing out full color tri-folds espousing the virtues of their new system.
That right there is the point. I believe that is the first time anyone other than WDFW knew about the new system. And I suspect it was so far along that they will have a hard time changing anything. It would have been nice for them to unveil their plan 6 months earlier and then there would be time to cry foul and try to get them to tweek it.
The main thing that needs done is to program the software with a box to be checked as to what category your points that were accumulated before 2010 should be applied. I get the feeling that WDFW was just told by OC that it would be "too complicated" and they didn't press the issue......and settled on placing points in all categories. With enough outcry, maybe they could have pressued the issue and gotten the programmers to figure it out. :dunno:
A lot of us are on the email list and we didn't hear about the changes until the end of January.
Post by: Snapshot on April 03, 2010, 12:16:20 PM