Post by: jdb on March 30, 2010, 07:18:34 PM
Post by: BPturkeys on March 30, 2010, 07:28:03 PM
Post by: Bofire on March 30, 2010, 08:11:41 PM
Carl
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on March 30, 2010, 08:29:35 PM
Not inherantly accurate. Not enough bullet mass or velocity to do a lot of damage or provide penetration. It is not a one-shot killer at all. I'm not a big 40S&W fan either.
I really don't see much need for the BIG revolvers or the .500mag stuff either. If I'm going to carry something that weighs in at more than 5 pounds as a pistol, then I might as well just carry a rifle.
-Steve
Post by: dontgetcrabs on March 30, 2010, 08:45:41 PM
Post by: duckaholic on March 30, 2010, 08:51:29 PM
Post by: mkcj on March 30, 2010, 08:53:36 PM
Post by: ribka on March 30, 2010, 08:54:00 PM
Post by: duckaholic on March 30, 2010, 09:00:19 PM
Post by: ribka on March 30, 2010, 09:03:28 PM
i read somewhere a while back something someone had wrote and he said and i quote (.40 s&w stands for .40 short and weak) in my opinion that was his saying he volunteers to be a test subject in that theory.
Probably over 90% LEO's now carry 40 S&W. Not a bad round for handgun for concealed carry and capacity
Post by: shaneman153D on March 30, 2010, 09:30:21 PM
Anything that says ACP at the end. .25, .380, and yes, your beloved.
No handgun has the "stopping power" that you crave. Learn to shoot and shoot well, anything that the FBI says is acceptable penetration-wise is acceptable to me. That is currently anything bigger than .380. I like the .40.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214491/Police-firearms-teacher-shot-civilian-Magnum-classroom-failed-instructor-course.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214491/Police-firearms-teacher-shot-civilian-Magnum-classroom-failed-instructor-course.html)
Post by: MichaelJ on March 30, 2010, 09:34:39 PM
;)
Post by: sisu on March 30, 2010, 09:42:07 PM
9mm, hands down. Nothing gets more play than that stupid little round.Ditto! :IBCOOL:
Post by: sisu on March 30, 2010, 09:43:32 PM
All you 9mm haters :rolleyes:It's a NATO round! NATO says it all, "spray bulllets and hope for the best."
Anything that says ACP at the end. .25, .380, and yes, your beloved.
No handgun has the "stopping power" that you crave. Learn to shoot and shoot well, anything that the FBI says is acceptable penetration-wise is acceptable to me. That is currently anything bigger than .380. I like the .40.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214491/Police-firearms-teacher-shot-civilian-Magnum-classroom-failed-instructor-course.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214491/Police-firearms-teacher-shot-civilian-Magnum-classroom-failed-instructor-course.html)
Post by: Huntbear on March 31, 2010, 06:17:46 AM
Post by: CP on March 31, 2010, 07:36:51 AM
9mm the most underrated.
Post by: GoldTip on March 31, 2010, 08:02:13 AM
Post by: fisheral87 on March 31, 2010, 08:18:42 AM
Quote
:)all of them.
:yeah:
Comes down to what you can shoot accurately.
Post by: MikeWalking on March 31, 2010, 08:41:16 AM
Such as Buffalo Bore's
9mm Luger +P+ Pistol and Handgun Ammo - (+P+) 115 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,400 fps/M.E. 500 ft.lbs.) - With 18rds in my Hi-Power I feel pretty good within reason. Bears and Sumo sized, druged out muggers aside... :chuckle:
Post by: chrisb on March 31, 2010, 08:55:16 AM
9mm is great for the range (b/c it can be cheap to shoot is is low on recoil) and for concealed carry i don't mind it either especially since my XD holds 16+1. I can't foresee any one attacker making it through that many rounds of 9mm HP
Post by: bearpaw on March 31, 2010, 09:16:02 AM
I have had hounds killed because of poor performance, most handguns are not as deadly as the owner thinks.
Don't get the wrong idea, I love shooting handguns, but I realize they are very limited. I have a few hunters who only use handguns, last fall one guy killed his antelope at 204 yds with one shot and his big whitetail buck at about 150 yds with one shot. He shoots a contender and is very good with it.
I think the other guys have pretty much nailed down the poorest calibers. ;)
Post by: sisu on March 31, 2010, 09:18:33 AM
All our talk of hand guns for black or brown bear revolves around the same premise in that everyone has their comfort zone with a particular hand gun. If you can't handle the recoil or you have no confidence in you weapon what good is it to you? That being said, we all choose what we are comfortable with. Just like the women we chose to marry. Hahaha
Post by: Buckmark on March 31, 2010, 09:42:20 AM
Also be sure to buy a quality handgun that will not jam on you in a situation where you need it.
I also cannot emphasize strongly enough the need to train with your firearm of choice for self protection. A gun will not save you if you do not know how to use it.
In stressful situations we do not rise to the occasion, we fall to our level of training.
Post by: Wile E. Hunter on March 31, 2010, 10:03:40 AM
Any functional handgun is better than no handgun at all. But I hear some people talk about how good the 9 mm, .380 Auto, or .38 Special rounds are. If you have the choice of a better handgun for self protection, buy it. Be sure you have the heaviest grain bullet you can get. Make sure it is a functional round in your handgun.Very good advice. When I was in the gulf war, I was AMAZED at how well things flowed due to training training training for years prior. It really is true that if you train like you want to fight, you will succeed.
Also be sure to buy a quality handgun that will not jam on you in a situation where you need it.
I also cannot emphasize strongly enough the need to train with your firearm of choice for self protection. A gun will not save you if you do not know how to use it.
In stressful situations we do not rise to the occasion, we fall to our level of training.
I think it's really important to keep yourself proficient with your firearm of choice. If all you can do is punch holes in paper on a semi regular basis, so be it, but if you can get yourself into IPSC, or 3 gun matches, etc. all the better! I've shot quite a bit of IPSC, and it shows you that it's quite a bit harder to "run and gun" than it looks. I will tell you though, after practicinig those skills, it would be sheer terror for your standard gang member to pick me out as his target.
Buckmark's right on with the equipment statement, too. Buy the best equipment (gun, sights, holster, and ammo) that you can afford and get proficient with them. Hopefully you'll never "need" them, but ifthe situation arises where you do, your life, and possibly that of your family will literally depend on the choices you've made leading up to that point. :twocents:
Oh, one last thing. The people that praise the 9mm because noone's volunteering to be shot by one.... I wouldn't "volunteer" to be shot by a pellet gun, but I won't be carrying one for protection any time soon....
Wile E.
Post by: Bscman on March 31, 2010, 03:49:18 PM
It seems as though this entire thread is bashing 9mm...sounds like it's rated pretty low to me.
I'm gunna take the side that bullet technology has come a LONG ways in the last 10 years, and the 9mm we have now is by NO MEANS the same 9mm Police were ditching in the 90's....but yes, it is still on the "low end" of acceptable cartridges.
Heck, I have .380 ACP 90gr JHP's from Double Tap that are rated for 1,000fps out of a Ruger LCP.
Yes, they actually see 1,000fps out of an LCP...pretty impressive when Federal Hydrashocks are doing darn near 200fps less than that in the same bullet weight...this puts a whole lot more punch to a little tiny pocket gun. A .380 in your pocket is better than a 9mm at home.
Post by: Bofire on March 31, 2010, 06:38:26 PM
Carl
Post by: MichaelJ on March 31, 2010, 06:58:25 PM
:)What cartridge would you trust, if you could only have the LEAST effective bullet/load combo available? I am talking "defense" not hunting, chasing criminals/on the job, fighting a war, just protecting your life.???
Carl
Desert Eagle in that case... :chuckle:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adventurersplace.com%2Flaragear%2Fimages%2Fweapons%2Fdeserte.jpg&hash=4ac266a7a9d1e30377be28880bf00c11ba329ce7)
Michael
Post by: sisu on March 31, 2010, 07:05:22 PM
Bullet Tooth Tony: Now, dicks have drive and clarity of vision, but they are not clever. They smell *censored* and they want a piece of the action. And you thought you smelled some good old *censored*, and have brought your two little mincey *censored* balls along for a good old time. But you've got your parties muddled up. There's no *censored* here, just a dose that'll make you wish you were born a woman. Like a prick, you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with you. And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your guns...:)What cartridge would you trust, if you could only have the LEAST effective bullet/load combo available? I am talking "defense" not hunting, chasing criminals/on the job, fighting a war, just protecting your life.???
Carl
Desert Eagle in that case... :chuckle:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adventurersplace.com%2Flaragear%2Fimages%2Fweapons%2Fdeserte.jpg&hash=4ac266a7a9d1e30377be28880bf00c11ba329ce7)
Michael
[Zoom in on the side of Sol's gun, which indeed has "REPLICA" etched on the side; zoom out, as they sneak peeks at the sides of their guns]
Bullet Tooth Tony: And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O"... Written down the side of mine...
[Withdraws his gun and puts it on the table]
[They look, zoom in on the side of his gun, which indeed has "DESERT EAGLE .50" etched on the side]
Bullet Tooth Tony: Should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence. Now... *censored* off!
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 31, 2010, 07:15:54 PM
Post by: high country on March 31, 2010, 07:57:42 PM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on March 31, 2010, 07:58:06 PM
and the .50 is the most overrated handgun cartridge, seriously who is going to be able to accurately shoot that round repeatively even if its in an auto loader. nevermind a wheel gun, been there did that once impressive, yes practical, no way
Post by: woodswalker on March 31, 2010, 08:15:31 PM
Bullet Tooth Tony, YES!!! love that movie.
and the .50 is the most overrated handgun cartridge, seriously who is going to be able to accurately shoot that round repeatively even if its in an auto loader. nevermind a wheel gun, been there did that once impressive, yes practical, no way
hey I do JUST fine with my .475 Linebaugh in a FA 757.... :yike:
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on March 31, 2010, 08:49:02 PM
That being said about the 45, it's interesting to read up on the 1911, and how the moro's in the Philipines would take multiple hits from the 38's used in those days, where as some of the 45's used seemed to have no problems. Older cartridges, and all lead bullets.
Post by: MikeWalking on April 01, 2010, 04:44:24 AM
Drugs and body fat can do a lot to off set getting shot. Read on account from N.Y.C. a Bank robber led cops on a 19 block foot chase despite multiple hits during the running shootout, more than a dozen. He just kept running till he came around a corner and a cop put a 12ga slug in his head. He was 6"5 and 350lbs+ jacked up on heroin...(ya a fat junkie, go figure)
Post by: Elk-aholic on April 01, 2010, 08:22:31 AM
Post by: dontgetcrabs on April 01, 2010, 07:34:50 PM
To say the 9mm is overrated is to totally ignore history, the 9mm has killed more people in wars than any other pistol cartridge hands down. Fired from a pistol or Submachine gun it has proven to be totally combat effective in stopping the enemy, look at how many Russians, American and English soldiers have died from a 9mm round just in WW2 alone.
I think the 45acp has taken out it's fair share. To say that the 9mm has killed more people than any other pistol round is a stretch. :twocents:
Post by: MikeWalking on April 01, 2010, 07:56:43 PM
Quote
To say that the 9mm has killed more people than any other pistol round is a stretch.
Not really. In WWII & Korea we were the only ones not shooting it. The whole rest of the world was shooting it for decades bofore we replaced the 1911A1 with the Baretta 92.
Post by: Bofire on April 01, 2010, 07:58:56 PM
Carl
Post by: yorketransport on April 01, 2010, 08:42:08 PM
That said, I have a 45-70 BFR and I love it! :chuckle:
Andrew
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2010, 08:50:30 PM
Post by: high country on April 01, 2010, 08:56:39 PM
I'll say the fast 45s (454, 460) are over rated. I've had a few 454s and a 460, and none of them were impressive. They give you a slightly better trajectory than a strong 45 Colt load, but at the cost of recoil and muzzle blast. If the 44mag/ 45 Colt aren't enough, I want a heavier, larger caliber slug.
That said, I have a 45-70 BFR and I love it! :chuckle:
Andrew
wow, I never thouht I would hear the 460 called underrated
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on April 01, 2010, 09:08:05 PM
:)The 45 used on the moro pirates was a colt 45 not an acp. 1917 revolvers.
Carl
And 455 webley's as well!
Post by: demontang on April 02, 2010, 08:03:27 AM
Post by: Elk-aholic on April 02, 2010, 08:22:02 AM
That said, I have a 45-70 BFR and I love it! :chuckle:
Andrew
I want to buy one of those bad boys in 444 or 450 Marlin...
Post by: high country on April 02, 2010, 09:44:33 AM
Post by: magnanimous_j on April 02, 2010, 10:24:37 AM
9MM can't be the most overrated round, its constantly getting put down.
Post by: runamuk on April 02, 2010, 02:33:59 PM
Think about it every cal has its place. not everyone can shoot a 45 accurate or carry one everyday. Id feel better with a 22 then a rock. :twocents:
its funny I made it 40 years never carried more than a knife and now I read these arguments for bigger and bigger guns, yet in private I am told all the time I am better off carrying my 22 than nothing :dunno: I don't like big guns the recoil is uncomfortable the louder they are the less I want to fire them even with ear protection, so I will stick with what I can shoot comfortably and enjoy practicing with.....
personally I think the big hugenormous guns are all overrated but I am just a girl so who knows :dunno: maybe its a guy thing the whole bigger is better :dunno:.....my only experience with 9mm was watching several repeatedly jam at the range, I am thinking they are not my cup of tea ;)
Post by: MikeWalking on April 02, 2010, 02:47:49 PM
Quote
my only experience with 9mm was watching several repeatedly jam at the range, I am thinking they are not my cup of tea
Coild be all kinds of reasons for that, in any caliber. The Reloads many Ranges sell are pretty poor, I have had 2-3 in 20 turn out to be squibs. Poor cleaning. A weak wrist or flinching can help an Auto jam. A shooter can absorb enough recoil energy to affect the cycle.
Aeveral rds of .22 in someones face is probably as good as anything else.
Post by: duckaholic on April 02, 2010, 07:17:07 PM
.45 ACP. It's a great round, but people think its a nuke.:yeah: :yeah:
9MM can't be the most overrated round, its constantly getting put down.
Post by: Bofire on April 02, 2010, 07:54:43 PM
For me, with this gun, I have 3, 45 acp Kimber Procarry II, night sites. from just about any position the first round goes thru the 10 ring, the next 7 go right where I want them. at 100 yards it groups in about 12 inches. When my hand closes around the grip it feels like .......... I am holding ....... something I am real familar with. :chuckle:
That is the gun you must find, for you, what ever it is! :dunno:
so there ya go
Carl
Post by: Bigshooter on April 02, 2010, 07:58:19 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on April 02, 2010, 10:25:30 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on April 03, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on April 04, 2010, 12:57:37 AM
.41 mag ? Really? Don't hear to much about it. It's only .019 Smaller than the .44mag (really a .429) Said to very accurate. Haven't seen more than a couple Gun Makers offer it?
Every .41 mag idiot I have ever met likes to compare heavy .41 mag loads to light .44 mag loads, and tell you that the .41 mag is just as good as the .44 mag. Now I just ask if they can shoot a 300gr bullet at 1200fps with there .41 mag.
Post by: Jamieb on April 04, 2010, 01:16:30 AM
Sounds like the 280win guys and the 7 mag,25-06 and the 257WBY, 300wsm and the 300 win mag..41 mag ? Really? Don't hear to much about it. It's only .019 Smaller than the .44mag (really a .429) Said to very accurate. Haven't seen more than a couple Gun Makers offer it?
Every .41 mag idiot I have ever met likes to compare heavy .41 mag loads to light .44 mag loads, and tell you that the .41 mag is just as good as the .44 mag. Now I just ask if they can shoot a 300gr bullet at 1200fps with there .41 mag.
I have this little 25auto that is a useless piece of crap, it goes bang everytime you pull the trigger but a 2x4 will stop a bullet at 25', so my vote is for the 25auto's.
Post by: rasbo on April 04, 2010, 04:20:35 AM
Good friend of mine got shot in the face with the .25...He took the gun away from leroy and beat him within an inch of his life..Big Swede,gave me the name Rasbo..Sounds like the 280win guys and the 7 mag,25-06 and the 257WBY, 300wsm and the 300 win mag..41 mag ? Really? Don't hear to much about it. It's only .019 Smaller than the .44mag (really a .429) Said to very accurate. Haven't seen more than a couple Gun Makers offer it?
Every .41 mag idiot I have ever met likes to compare heavy .41 mag loads to light .44 mag loads, and tell you that the .41 mag is just as good as the .44 mag. Now I just ask if they can shoot a 300gr bullet at 1200fps with there .41 mag.
I have this little 25auto that is a useless piece of crap, it goes bang everytime you pull the trigger but a 2x4 will stop a bullet at 25', so my vote is for the 25auto's.
Post by: ADAMS on April 04, 2010, 09:21:42 AM
I think that's doable. The .41 Mag is only slightly smaller in diameter than the .44 Mag.
What is a heavy weight in the 41 magnum? Most quickly think of the 240 grainers...and that is heavy but only moderate compared to 250 grain thru the 300 grain bullets this caliber can shoot with power and accuracy. For example 19 grains of H110 will push a NEI 300 grain cast bullet at over 1260 fps for over 1050 ft. lbs. of muzzle thump...that’s over half a ton. And I get that from my Ruger 4 and 5/8ths barrel.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/41heavy.htm (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/41heavy.htm)
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2010, 08:50:16 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 04, 2010, 09:06:14 PM
who ever said the 45's are over rated let me have you shoot my 454 and i will put up aginst any cal "but the 460 since it is so close and can shoot the 454" at 50+ yards and then lets see the people that think the 9mm or 380 will work :DOH:
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on April 04, 2010, 09:26:32 PM
Post by: C-Money on April 06, 2010, 01:51:02 PM
Post by: ADAMS on April 06, 2010, 02:53:43 PM
I hear you. I toyed with the idea of getting a .454 Casull but I was always brought back to earth by the fact that I wouldn't even want to shoot full house 300+ grain loads @ 1,350fps out of my 44 Mag.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 06, 2010, 03:42:41 PM
Post by: Rob on April 06, 2010, 03:58:51 PM
Energy? Recoil? Ballistics? concealed carry?
Post by: shaneman153D on April 06, 2010, 05:25:45 PM
o·ver·rate (vr-rt)
tr.v. o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
That's .45ACP all the way. .357 Sig too.
Post by: Bofire on April 08, 2010, 02:55:44 PM
The hand gun effectiveness stats published by Ed Sanow listed the 357/125 grain HP, as the best "one shot stopper" on humans in actual shootings. but then humans are sissys.
Carl
Post by: yorketransport on April 08, 2010, 08:44:05 PM
:)I do not get the "overrated" 45 acp. Everyone knows it is a big fat slow bullet that knocks people down or kills them well, and has proven that. :dunno: :dunno:
The hand gun effectiveness stats published by Ed Sanow listed the 357/125 grain HP, as the best "one shot stopper" on humans in actual shootings. but then humans are sissys.
Carl
:chuckle: :chuckle: Humans are sissys.
Andrew
Post by: Caretaker on April 09, 2010, 10:38:15 PM
Post by: shaneman153D on April 09, 2010, 11:16:00 PM
:)I do not get the "overrated" 45 acp. Everyone knows it is a big fat slow bullet that knocks people down or kills them well, and has proven that. :dunno: :dunno:
The hand gun effectiveness stats published by Ed Sanow listed the 357/125 grain HP, as the best "one shot stopper" on humans in actual shootings. but then humans are sissys.
Carl
It doesn't physically knock someone down. No handgun or shoulder-fired rifle does. That's why it's overrated, people forget physics.
Post by: thinkingman on April 10, 2010, 08:22:08 AM
Thanks you for pointing that out.:)I do not get the "overrated" 45 acp. Everyone knows it is a big fat slow bullet that knocks people down or kills them well, and has proven that. :dunno: :dunno:
The hand gun effectiveness stats published by Ed Sanow listed the 357/125 grain HP, as the best "one shot stopper" on humans in actual shootings. but then humans are sissys.
Carl
It doesn't physically knock someone down. No handgun or shoulder-fired rifle does. That's why it's overrated, people forget physics.
It needed to be said.
Most bigbore handguns are overrated.
Modern 9mm with excellent bullets are underrated.
I carry both.
Post by: Bofire on April 10, 2010, 09:14:44 AM
Beginner's Guide to Stopping Power Makes it kind of a pointless argument if you beleive Chuck!
By Chuck Hawks
Much of what one reads about the subject of handgun stopping power is a mixture of truth, half-truth, untruth, rumor and legend. A good place for inquiring minds to start would be to read the books by Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall, which are the most important works on the subject at the present time. They did the research, visited the morgues, talked to the shooting victims and police, and in the end collected the validated data from actual shootings that demonstrates what has worked in the real world. Their findings can correct a lot of popular misconceptions for those who are willing to learn.
When discussing terminal ballistics what seems "reasonable" on the face of it often turns out not to be, sometimes for fairly complex reasons. One example would be the alleged superiority of the semi-wadcutter (SWC or "Keith style") bullet form. General Julian Hatcher, who invented the widely quoted (and copied) theory of Relative Stopping Power, and those who followed his lead theorized that such a bullet should be 25% more effective than the traditional Round Nose (RN) bullet. And, in fact, the SWC style bullet does look somehow deadlier than a RN bullet. Its sharp shouldered, truncated cone configuration was alleged to "chop" a chunk out of tissue and blood vessels as it passed through, rather than press them aside as it was alleged a RN bullet would do. This seemed to make sense to me, and for years I shot SWC style bullets. But when Sanow and Marshall evaluated over 100 actual shootings with 158 grain .38 Special lead SWC bullets, there proved to be no significant difference in stopping power compared to 158 grain .38 Special lead RN bullets at the same velocity. Clearly, the Hatcher theory has some flaws, no matter how reasonable it may seem.
The stopping power of any handgun bullet turns out to be a function of its ability to disrupt vital bodily functions, not the diameter or weight or initial shape of the bullet that strikes the victim. For example, the difference in the size of the entrance hole made by a .451" bullet compared to that made by a .355" bullet in an elastic (semi-self sealing) material like skin turns out to be largely irrelevant to stopping power. The idea (which I have heard expressed) that a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole to "bleed out" a man or an animal is faintly ridiculous.
The principle method of both stopping and killing with any firearm, whether rifle or pistol or shotgun, is the disruption of vital bodily functions. Fatally damage any animal's heart, liver, lungs, or central nervous system (including Homo sapiens) and it is not going to live long enough to bleed out. Fail to put your bullet in a vital spot and you are very likely to have a problem with a man or an animal. That is not to say that some bullet placements might not eventually cause death by loss of blood, or infection, or some other mechanism, but that is never the goal of any hunter OR gunfighter who wants an immediate one shot stop.
Readers who have done some deer hunting have probably observed that often the entrance wound from a modern expanding rifle bullet (like a 100 grain .243, 130 grain .270, or 150 grain .308) seems minimal, with almost no external blood loss at all. In addition, there may be no exit wound--the bullet is often found just under the hide on the off side. But if the shot was true the deer's lungs probably look like they went through a blender, and the animal was down in seconds. That is an illustration of nearly perfect stopping power and it has little or nothing to do with the relatively small caliber of the bullet involved.
Modern big bore advocates, following in the footsteps of Jeff Cooper (who I respect greatly and regard as a fine and very persuasive writer), will claim that the example cited in the paragraph above and witnessed by countless tens of thousands of deer hunters does not apply at typical handgun bullet impact velocities. They argue that below some magic impact velocity (usually about 2000 fps) the temporary stretch cavity that contributes so much to the lethality of rifle bullets like those in the example above ceases to exist. These writers continue to ignore any facts contrary to their preconceptions. (As an aside, it is interesting that big bore rifle fans use a similar argument, but for them the magic velocity is typically about 2400 fps.)
Unfortunately, they are simply wrong about pistol and rifle terminal ballistics being fundamentally different, which can and has proven by controlled testing and high speed photography. In fact, they are fundamentally similar. Both depend on disrupting the function of vital organs, and bullets that reach such organs and expand quickly and violently, thus destroying a lot of tissue, are the best way to accomplish this, whether fired from a short barrel or a long one.
How could the terminal ballistics of pistols and rifles be so different, since today we have pistols chambered for rifle cartridges and rifles chambered for pistol cartridges? In general, rifles have an advantage in kinetic energy, and this gives them an advantage in the amount of potential damage they can cause. (Of course, most of the big bore boys don't believe that kinetic energy matters, either, but that is their problem.)
But in terms of the mechanisms of wound dynamics, rifle bullets and pistol bullets are both bullets, and function in pretty much the same way. The stopping power of pistol loads and the killing power of rifle loads are both based on a combination of the temporary stretch cavity and the permanent crush cavity produced by the bullet as it traverses the target. Any theory that ignores either of these factors will give erroneous results. Ignore the temporary stretch cavity and your results will favor big caliber bullets. Ignore the crush cavity and your results will favor high velocity, nearly explosive bullets. Both results will be incorrect.
For at least 40 years I have been reading claims by various "authorities" that bullets cannot be made to expand reliably at typical handgun velocities. This is just plain not true. I discovered that in the middle 1960's by shooting game with .357 Magnum JHP expanding bullets, and it certainly isn't true now. These opinions usually trace their origin to ancient theories and flawed experiments, particularly the Thompson-LaGard study conducted around the turn of the (20th) Century and General Julian Hatcher's aforementioned Theory of Relative Stopping Power.
When applied to contemporary handgun cartridges, theories based on Hatcher (which include Cooper's and Taylor's "Short Forms") have a statistical correlation to reality of only .64. In other words, they are meaningless. A vocal minority of gun writers and their disciples (again mostly big bore pistol fans) have come to accept this bunk as gospel, but it is really in the same category as urban legends. These "authorities" have been repeating this misinformation for as long as I can remember--but that does not make them right.
It is instructive to read the actual results of the Thompson-LaGard cattle shooting experiments, which I have done. I urge my readers to do the same. It would be hard to imagine a less appropriate or more poorly controlled study. Despite the significance ascribed to it to this day by the ignorant and willfully blind, it proved absolutely nothing about the lethality or stopping power (on humans) of the handgun cartridges and loads tested. And it is even less relevant (if possible) to modern handgun ammunition, since no expanding bullets were tested.
All that the Thompson-LaGard experiment really proved is that none of the handgun loads tested were effective at killing cattle. Most of the bovines those early experimenters shot had to be put down with a sledge hammer! The conclusion that the .45 caliber pistol was superior was forgone from the outset due to the bias of the testers, and it became their official conclusion despite a startling lack of data to support it. Interestingly, the only steer put down quickly with one shot was killed by a round from the high velocity 7.65mm (.30 caliber) Luger pistol!
Well designed bullets (which includes most of the JHP pistol bullets now on the market) expand very reliably at their intended impact velocity. How do you imagine the 115 grain JHP 9x19 +P load, 125 grain JHP .357 load, 155 grain JHP .40 S&W load, and 230 grain JHP .45 ACP loads earned those outstanding 90%+ one shot stop records in the real world? In a sentence: due to the consistent performance of their JHP bullets. :) :)
The famous 125 grain .357 JHP bullet, the most effective one shot stopper of all handgun loads, penetrates 13.25" in ordinance gelatin and produces a football shaped stretch cavity. This is how the very best bullets perform. And bullet performance has a great effect on stopping power.
For example, the .40 S&W has higher one shot stop percentages in the real world than the 10mm Auto. Yet both use exactly the same caliber bullets, and the 10mm Lite load has exactly the same velocity as the .40 S&W. What gives?
The difference is a function of the terminal performance of the bullets involved. The FBI adopted the 10mm Lite load and became the main driving force behind 10mm load development. The FBI protocol calls for more penetration, and therefore less expansion, than is desirable to maximize stopping power in most shooting situations. They are more concerned about shooting through car doors, barricades, and so forth than putting criminals down with one shot in the typical frontal shooting situation that homeowners and civilians are most likely to face. The FBI essentially wanted ammunition designed for extended gun battles with perps hiding behind cover, and that is what they got. But as a result most 10mm ammo has less actual stopping power than the lighter, faster expanding bullets used in the best .40 S&W loads.
I wrote this article, not as a diatribe against big bore handguns :)(indeed, some of them--using JHP bullets--are near the top of the stopping power list), but because I have grown weary of hearing and reading the same old misinformation endlessly repeated. My opinion is no better than anyone else's unless it correlates with reality. Read the actual studies, not what others say about the studies, and decide for yourself. For those concerned with the problem, handgun stopping power is too important a subject to be left to urban legend.
Post by: demontang on April 10, 2010, 04:59:11 PM
Ok read a 1989 fbi study that basicly said if the bullet hits a large blood bearing organ and has enough dia to cause rapid bleeding is the best. needs to have penatration >12". A larger diam bullet will provide a faster stop then a smaller diam bullet in the same hit and a larger bullet will always have the advantage.
Post by: thinkingman on April 12, 2010, 10:36:23 AM
Post by: demontang on April 12, 2010, 11:06:27 AM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 12, 2010, 11:39:04 AM
A hit to the central nervous system will always stop a fight faster than a hit that impedes blood flow....Regardless of the bullet that does it.
i agree but you still have to have enough power in the handgun to get the bullet threw the skull or deep enough to get the spine and etc
Post by: CastleRocker on April 12, 2010, 12:28:48 PM
I used to hunt exclusively with handguns, and I am here to tell you; they are ALL over-rated!
Handguns that shoot handgun calibers are not very powerful when it comes to actually killing large animals, and I don't care what new and improved bullet you shoot. I've killed just about every animal we have here in the western US with handguns, (no wolf YET), and most were one shot kills at reasonable ranges. I've never had an animal get "knocked down" with a handgun cartridge. I've several shot deer and elk in the head/neck, and yeah, they went down right now; DRT. However, they were definately NOT "knocked down". In the last several years, bullets have come a long ways in ALL calibers. But bottom line; I've had the worst performance (using the best bullets) with all 9mm/.38's. Yes, that includes the 357 Magnum and Maximum. I don't know why, but it's been my experience that larger/heavier diameter projectiles in handgun calibers put meat on the ground MUCH better than the smaller ones do.
That said, I carry either my little Ruger in 380, or my Glock in 40S&W...both over-rated, but I guess it's better that nothing.
When I hunt with a handgun, I use a rifle caliber.